Doublespeak from Ba Bay
The Washington Post's Tom Sietsema tried to like Ba Bay, but couldn't. When I went there, I tried to order a meatless entrée off the menu, but couldn't.
Chef Nick Sharpe, who snuck away from the kitchen for a few minutes just as lunch service was ending to answer some questions, aims for modernity in its take on Vietnamese food. The theory, as Ba Bay's website explains it:
Ba Bay means “Madame Seven” and is our grandmother’s nickname. With the help of some friends, our modern Vietnamese menu is a nod to her and the belief in how food should be enjoyed. Just a few tweaks gran, we promise!
In Sietsema's review, he reinforced its modern approach:
Yes, it's meant to be modern, but some of this food strays too far from what is revered as a fresh and delicate cuisine.
But when I asked Sharpe why there weren't any meatless items on the menu, his face scrunched, as he pretended to hide his frustration from a food writer. I encouraged him to vent, with my pen in hand, and tell me why in 2011, in a major city, in such a self-consciously modern restaurant, he hasn't caved to the vocal vegetarian community's demands.
He called over to the host stand for Khoa Nguyen, the Vietnamese man in charge, to validate his points. They both explained that most dishes from the Southeast Asian country feature meat and seafood. Sharpe says he's "keeping true" to their cuisine. "I want to find a really solid dish that speaks to me" before including any vegetarian item on the menu, he says. Nguyen confirms his chef's sentiments, noting there were not that many vegetarians in Vietnam, many of them were vegetarian for religious reasons and "they only stay vegetarian for a certain time of the year."
To be fair, in Ba Bay's rotating menu, there are sometimes vegetarian sides (although many of his vegetables are cooked in a meat-base stock or flavored with fish sauce), and many of the items can be cooked to order without any meat products. But anyone who wants a meatless meal has to specifically ask to change an item. Sharpe says he's happy to make his dishes vegetarian-friendly, although it's much more pleasurable for vegetarians to order something without requesting alternative preparations.
I didn't call them on their doublespeak at the time, just silently nodded and took notes. It's one thing for the team behind Ba Bay to say they are a modern restaurant and cull influences from around the globe, but then they can't use the excuse that they're being true to Vietnamese cuisine as their reason for not incorporating meatless dishes on the menu.
Pick a side, Ba Bay.
Photo: Ba Bay
11:40 am
Thanks, Stefanie, for this enlightening post. This vegetarian had been curious about Ba Bay, but you've satisfied his curiosity to the point where he doesn't need to go.
12:45 pm
Oh please, aren't you vegetarians special, get over yourselves! If vegetarians are such an important part of the market why can't a vegetarian restaurant survive - in any major city not just ours? If it is so important to you carry some sprouts in your bag. You have a neurotic need to be singled out as "special".
How is it you are qualified to write on food in the first place? It would seem you cleverly avoided any real commentary on the restaurant, deftly hiding how little you know. How is it you are qualified to judge that "they can't use the excuse that they're being true to Vietnamese cuisine as their reason for not incorporating meatless dishes on the menu."
If City Paper can't field someone who knows something about the subject matter at hand to offer commentary then please don't bother.
1:32 pm
in my experience, vietnamese restaurants are either normal, meat serving establishments or expressly and exclusively vegetarian. there may be some items that do not include meat, but there is no guarantee that the broth and other things don't include animal products. you would go to one of the serious vegetarian places to abstain from animal products. that doesn't strike me as "less modern," maybe only "less american." i do not hold anti vegetarian/vegan feelings like WardQueen, just confirming the take of ba bay's staff and suggesting that it's a little pompous to talk down to the restaurant because it doesn't share your idea of what it is to be a modern restaurant.
1:35 pm
@WardQueen - No vegetarian restaurants survive in any major city? Please do some reasearcg before commenting. There are popular and successful all-vegetarian restaurants in other cities. And there are many more that offer significant vegetarian options on the menu in addition to meat. Embarassingly, it's only in DC that I've seen so many places with all meat menus and a random vegetarian pasta thrown in as an afterthought. This place doesn't even do that.
As for the writer's qualifications, I can't speak to them. But I can point out that the point of her piece is very clear if you're willing able to to read and understand what she wrote. She's pointing out that Ba Bay claims to update traditional Vietnamese cuisine. But then when the chef is asked why said update doesn't include some vegetarian options, he says that traditional Vietnamese cuisince always has meat. That's doublespeak. And lame.
1:38 pm
Wow...WardQueen comes out guns blazing!
I'm a pretty committed carnivore, but I don't understand WQ's overly-aggressive attack on the author. Why should it upset you so much that Stefanie points out the lack of even A SINGLE vegetarian dish on a restaurant's menu.
Vegetarian doesn't equal Vegan...it's not an overly complicated thing. Salads, noodle dishes, and soups are routinely made without meat. Does WardQueen think these dishes are part of some nefarious agenda on the part of vegetarians who want to be "special?"
As for Stefanie's lack of "commentary on the restaurant" - that wasn't the point of this blog entry. Anyone who has been reading her posts here knows that her beat is primarily dealing with vegetarian dining. Which is what this post was all about.
WardQueen's dig at Stefanie's qualifications (which, by the way, include writing about the DC restaurant scene for multiple publications over the last six years) overlook an important point: She wasn't suggesting that Ba Bay's argument was false...simply that it seemed specious in light of their claim to draw on modern influences in their intepretations of the country's cuisine.
WardQueen: If you can't read a post in its entirety - and understand the author's meaning - before offering commentary, then please don't bother.
2:43 pm
I will never understand the anti-vegetarian thing. Do you not have bigger things to be upset about?
I'm a carnivore myself, but that doesn't mean I choose to eat meat with every meal. I think it's great that WCP has dedicated a writer (like the Post has done) to the "vegetarian" beat -- vegetarian cuisine is getting more popular, and given that local publications have seen fit to dedicate staff to it, Ba Bay would do well to follow suit. Is this something they "should" do? No, its their restaurant. But why turn away an eager customer base in an already tricky industry when you don't have to?
Getting back to the point of the article, it sounds like Ba Bay is just getting to its feet in terms of identity. I wonder from Chef's comments if they do plan on offering vegetarian fare in the future -- but his reaction doesn't leave me hopeful.
2:48 pm
You don't faze me. Vegetarians don't faze me.
6:39 pm
"...it's much more pleasurable for vegetarians to order something without requesting alternative preparations"... seriously? What kind of prima donna statement is that? I can't believe a minority believes the culinary industry should cater to their eating restrictions. How difficult is it to say "hold the chicken, please." I hardly think it detracts from the overall experience.
7:18 pm
This post is insipid. My guess is that most vegetarians have made a choice not to eat meat. I made a choice not to eat mushroom because I simply don't like them. I am not offended when restaurants put them in dishes. Nor am I incredulous when I have to ask a restaurant to hold mushrooms from a dish.
8:20 pm
the last two paragraphs of this article--especially the cutesy/dogmatic last line--put it over the top. i am not vegetarian but do abstain from animal products on various days, so i appreciate the validity of veganism. as i wrote above, the writer does not come off well in snidely dismissing the chef's explanation that "this is how vietnamese food generally is done" as being un-modern. in a piece that takes on a persecuted tone, it's odd that you'd so quickly snap around to look down on or belittle what seems to me an honest explanation from the restaurant.
8:20 pm
oh get over it. if they dont have vegetarian items or you dont like the menu dont go. vote with your money.
10:22 pm
Great article! You smoked them out and exposed the doublespeak. And you also managed to piss off lots of people. Good work.
7:12 am
Well said, Stefanie. I'm no vegetarian, in fact - I love meat...but in this day and age there should be a non-meat, non-side option for the vegies. People are vegetarian for all kinds of reasons - health problems to trying to cut down their carbon footprint. But whatever. Who cares. It's each person's choice. I say good for vegetarians. Seeing as how eating out is, essentially, hedonistic at heart, yes - give the vegetarians a more "Pleasurable" experience.
The only question here is WHY NOT?
Hey WardQueen - is having a vegetarian option on the menu going to mean you don't get to masticate your meat? No! Stop the cray cray and take a yoga class. Pent up anger about food is so not hot.
Hopefully Ba Bay will take your excellent point and adapt their menu to it.
9:48 am
So a restaurant that doesn't have vegetarian entrees on the menu - but is happy to comply with a vegetarian's special request - isn't good enough for you? The menu was available online, so were you really shocked to find out you couldn't see a wide swath of vegetarian dishes? Or was your intent to just put up a hit piece?
No offense, but unless you're an investor I doubt they give two shits about your menu critique. Accomidation is more than enough, but if I were them I'd put a David Chang-style "We do not serve vegetarian-friendly items" on the menu and be done with it.
10:51 am
The food at Ba bay is over salted - even when at Sonoma the chef over salted everything - and the fish poached in almond milk was inedible. Once was enough.
11:48 am
We live on the Hill, but being vegetarians we go out to Alexandria for pho. There's a place in Kingstowne that does an excellent one with tofu and broccoli, and the owner is exceptionally nice. I don't care that Ba Bay is non-vegetarian-- I respect tradition and not catering to specialized diets as much as anyone else-- but it does seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot by alienating a sizable portion of their potential client base. And besides, I hardly think lemongrass pots de creme are traditional Vietnamese fare.
3:22 pm
I live on the Hill and am vegetarian. I agree that no one should be required to cook vegetarian but Asian cuisine is often veggie friendly. I have eaten vegetarian dishes in many Vietnamese restaurants. Vegetarian eating is a growing trend and it would seem to make sense to at least try to cook one or two dedicated vegetarian dishes.
As to the idea that vegetarian restaurants are unsustainable, that's just false. NYC has many that are both successful and actually quite good. DC has a few too. The NY Times' Frank Bruni called Ubuntu, vegetarian restaurant in Napa, CA one of the top 20 in the country just a few years ago. The chef at that restaurant is not veg himself but finds it a rewarding challenge to cook that way. Because there's no challenge in making bacon sexy...brussel sprouts on the other hand? Forces a chef to get creative when they don't have pork fat to fall back on.
4:20 pm
#17 - I agree with your points. It's easy to fall back on pork and/or pork fat, and more chefs should consider the benefits of taking on the challenge of cooking amazing vegetarian food that isn't just an afterthought or plate of sides (look at CityZen).
I just don't see the point of a post where the author knew the menu going in, doesn't ask a follow up question to the establishment to address her perceived doublespeak, but then feels the need to call them out via public forum. It's a near Yelp level of half sided journalism that serves no purpose than to chastise a restaurant because the author doesn't like the menu.
3:15 pm
I've eaten in authentic vegetarian Vietnamese and Thai joints in SoCal, and while they are Buddhist owned and operated, they also serve vegetarian food all the time (Bo De Tinh Tam Chay in Westminster is a fave). Mr. Nguyen's statement is disingenious. Maybe he's confusing the increasingly popular periods of abstemious religious celebrations (in Thailand its Jeh) as the only manifestation of vegetarianism.
I agree that Ba Bay is not demonstrating much of a grasp of "modern" cuisine. "Modern" restaurants which manage extensive and varied vegetarian MEAL options -- The Source, CityZen, Restaurant Eve, 2941, Komi . . . in other words some of the best kitchens in town.
If Ba Bay doesn't want my non-meat eating business that's their right -- I'm not dependant on others to eat -- they're dependent on customers to survive and they should worry about the mixed reception they're getting from omnivores as well.
as for the ridiculous mushroom analogy -- imagine that every single dish on the menu contains mushrooms and you have to grill your server to determine which dishes can be prepared with mushrooms omitted and which cannot. You might feel like a pain in the ass rather than a welcomed customer, which is the real message here.
3:20 pm
@J
I'll 2nd Ubuntu -- I've eaten there and it's as good as billed.
It didn't match the smoked brussel sprouts with onion jam and polenta at Ubuntu, but I recently enjoyed delicious great fried brussel sprouts with coriander and yogurt at Zaytinyas.
3:30 pm
one more for the commenter on David Chang:
http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/david-chang-vegetarian-korean-dishes