Horror Stories: When Vulgar, Amateur Diners Ruin Dinner
Last Thursday, I joined three beet-loving friends in one of the tiny, intimate dining rooms on the lower level of Russia House's historic building at Connecticut and Florida avenues. Russian food doesn't thrill everyone, but since I am part Latvian and one of my dining partners was of Ukranian descent, we were eagerly anticipating borscht, cabbage, and other delights from an unforgiving land.
While the service was very good—our waitress was most helpful explaining the dishes and offered suggestions for an "authentic Russian experience"—the company around our table was perhaps the most irksome I've encountered in a long time at a restaurant.
Three twentysomething women—let's call them the "gaggle of geese"—were over by the window, with the ringleader demonstrating her dominance by being as loud and obnoxious as possible. Her performance, peppered with plenty of Omigods!, included cacophonous laughter paired with spastic arm movements across the table to show her friends something urgent and pressing on her phone. I turned around and gave Mother Goose the evil eye a couple of times. It failed to register. In fact, I think she may have thought I was flirting with her, which perhaps encouraged her annoying behavior even more. What I really wanted to do was take a spoonful of hot borscht and fling it her way. The older couple sitting right next to them sat silently, enduring the gaggle just like we were, with deathly cold-stone faces. I felt really bad for them.
The gaggle had a bottle of wine for the table and later ordered some chocolate martinis while they were still working on their entrées. Gross! You might be able to forgive their bad taste in cocktails, but not their bad behavior.
Where should the line be drawn? When should management step in and tell the amateurs to behave? When other diners start complaining? Or should they intervene before things get out of hand? Let's hear your horror stories in the comments.
Photo by Flickr user noricum using a Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic Creative Commons license
9:09 am
Maybe you shouldn't have been such a passive aggressive snot and actually said something to them if they were bothering you so much?
9:32 am
This city is too big to let others spoil your meal. Suck it up, enjoy yourselves despite them, and be thankful that you get to walk away: that woman is stuck with herself forever.
9:32 am
Don't be hatin
9:42 am
The 20 somethings of today have no perception of anything going on around them at all. They behave in a bubble, with total disregard as to how their actions affect those around them, as well as the environment they live in. Selfish, mindless, and self centered, they will be lonely generation.
9:48 am
"Passive aggressive snot" is a great description. I want to make that into a T-shirt. Thanks!
But in all seriousness, Jim Ed brings up a good point. Why didn't I go up and say something if they were annoying me so much? The older couple certainly didn't bother to make their displeasure known to the gaggle of geese. I would suspect that the majority of diners in a similar situation would suffer in silence. It can be rude/unbecoming to be *so* direct in an awkward situation.
9:48 am
We had a somewhat comparable experience while dining at Zentan last summer. The food was very good to excellent (if not an outstanding value, considering the prices), the service was fine after some initial hiccups, but the overall experience of the meal was diminished considerably by the overly loud, overly casual happy hour crowd at the bar. The people weren't misbehaving; they were simply irritating and providing a sports bar ambiance we doesn't want while eating a high-end meal.
Only suggestions I can make are to eat at times when the happy hour crowd may be absent or to choose establishments where there is a good separation between the bar and the dining room.
10:00 am
Lemme throw another variable into the mix for consideration: What if somebody at your table is being the obnoxious one? It's easy to tell a friend to cool his/her jets, but if it's somebody you don't know too well, would you take decisive action to tell them to mind their manners?
One thing that struck me with the gaggle of geese was the fact that Mother Goose's friends—who were certainly loud, just not *as* loud as their ringleader—didn't feel compelled to tell their friend to pipe down at the truly over-the-top moments. I hope this isn't a generational thing.
10:04 am
how would this shirt be illustrated? i need to see mock-ups!
10:10 am
Can you get one that says "Passive-Aggressive Snot" on one side and "Myopic Little Twit" on the other?
10:23 am
In my experience, if you want to solve a problem like that, a glare is not the way to do it. I would have either gotten up, walked calmly to the table, and asked them to tone it down, or I would have asked for the manager and made the same request to him or her. Ultimately, it comes down to how much you are willing to put up with and how far you are willing to go to solve the problem. I'm a very polite person myself, and in return, I expect the same from other and will not allow anyone to walk all over me. If the "gaggle" refused to be considerate, I would ultimately have made dinner just as unpleasant for them as they were making it for me. The line comes when the manager calls the police or asks me to leave.
10:32 am
Oh, and BTW, my approach does unfortunately lead to about one bar fight per year. The last came at a downtown bar while watching a band, and I turned and told the very drunk guy next to me to stop spilling his beer on me. He then grabbed me by the collar, only to end up on his back, on the floor, with me on top choking him senseless. So if you are going to stand up for yourself, several years of martial arts training can be helpful on occasion. And again, if you must know, yes, someone has stuck a gun in my face at a bar at one occasion. I simply said, "I'm sorry, I'll leave now", and I turned and left. Sometimes you have to choose your battles.
11:02 am
It's their money. What makes them amateur...they've been eating as long as they've been alive.
How about you be less of an elitist and ask them to lower the volume a bit?
11:17 am
I've been working in DC restaurants for a while now. Here is my take on this. 1. It's not a generational thing. I've seen just as many loud 20 year old interns at high end restaurants as I have seen obnoxious 60 year old couples. It's a basic manners/ entitlement thing. 2. If you are paying good money for your meal never feel ashamed to ask your server if you can move tables or if he/she would mind having a manager talk to the offending table. That being said, don't be just as obnoxious in your complaint. I've seen a number of couples totally flip out on their server because the table next to them was acting rude. It's not your servers fault that people at another table have no manners. 3. Sometimes their is nothing you can do with people who have no manners. Enjoy you're meal and move to a restaurant down the street for dessert and after dinner drinks.
11:35 am
@K: Thanks for those insightful thoughts.
12:01 pm
Oh lighten up a little.
12:03 pm
Worse news is that these types have pretty much taken over which is why we have so many crowded, noisy, places where you can't have a conversation with the person sitting next to you. My solution, cook well, eat at home!
12:19 pm
Glares don't work on drunk people - I should know, I've been one of them.
I definitely would have spoken to the manager and asked for them to speak to the offending group. If you couldn't do it for yourself, you could have asked on behalf of the older couple sitting there.
12:27 pm
When I got the bulk email from city paper that included this "article" I assumed it was being offered as a joke of some kind - my guess was that if I followed the link I would see this being discussed as the sort of over-the-top snotty/judgmental thing that the City Paper often receives from obnoxious readers, or something like that. But it turns out to be actual content created by someone who is paid by City Paper to write this way? Wow.
12:38 pm
What exactly makes a diner amateur? I don't think you need a qualifying degree to be able to eat out in restaurants. You should have either told the girls directly, told the server, or gotten over it. This mass e-mail is the same as me writing a blog post of my own on a website saying how obnoxious it is when web writers use newsletters as their own forum to discuss their personal life. Most of us do not care about these girls - we would more like to know about the borscht. Another thought - maybe the older couple next to you didn't think it was a big deal - but were silent for other reasons.
12:40 pm
The girls were loud. And maybe they were annoying. But I'd hardly call this is a "horror story".
Can we PLEASE start re-using the English laguage as it was intended? Can words actually mean what they mean again?
And let me just point out the sheer irony of the author making fun of the girls for their "OMG"-style banter, while he goes on to exclaim "GROSS!" because they ordered (GASP!) chocolate martinis during entrees.
12:43 pm
At least they're talking to each other. I find it odd when a group of girls are at dinner together in silence because they are all on their iphones texting other people or posting on Facebook.
1:02 pm
I have encountered this particular situation countless times. I've been a hostess in this city for many years. Its awkward for many guests in the restaurant, but it’s a bar scene--so you have to deal. To keep the peace, you should kindly leave your table, ask for a manager, and discuss the situation with she/he. It's their job to make sure their guests are having a great time. He/she may offer to move your table or speak to the rowdy guests, but it’s really the manager's job to take care of the situation. You don't want to add to the obnoxious chatting by glaring at anyone or causing a scene yourself because then it ruins your dinner. Best of luck!!
1:19 pm
Can you say "pretentious"? I admit that I also get annoyed by those (of ANY age) that bring unnecessary attention to themselves, but you should probably get over yourself and quit with the generalizations. Definitely not a subject worthy of an article.
1:28 pm
There are some serious haters on this comment section. i think Mike is making a good point and just asking people's opinions. I witnessed an older lady get up at a restaurant and tell some kids to be quiet and they just proceeded to get louder and more obnoxious til she left.
Id like to see the haters on here confront a loudmouth in a restaurant. Good luck with that!
1:32 pm
I suffered almost the exact samu situ as you describe -- small restaurant, my husband and i and one other couple in close proximity with a LOUD threesome of obnoxious dudes (one clear ringleader) who got drunker by the minute. they were even throwing around some fun racial epithets. i turned around and confronted them directly, asking them to please respect me and the others around us, as we were just trying to enjoy a (very expensive) special dinner out. they were so mortified that the Ringleader paid for our dinner -- all $400 of it. WIN!
1:46 pm
SVEIKS! I stopped really paying attention after "part Latvian" because I never meet others outside my family.
2:01 pm
I don't think this is an inappropriate topic, but it is surprising to see such strong reactions in the comments!
I'd prefer that we stay away from generalizations too -- older diners can be just as obnoxious as younger diners and I don't think the fact that they're 20somethings is really all that relevant. Whatever the age, gender, race, etc. of obnoxious diners, though, this is something that happens and many of us have been in the "ugh... do I say something? do I not?" situation. It's tough to do it.
From my experience, though, it's just as likely as not that they didn't even realize they were being annoying. I've been at dinner with friends, in the midst of telling or hearing a totally engrossing story, joke, etc. and suddenly realized, "oh, man, we're being kind of loud and that joke maybe wasn't for the whole room... oops..." Most people aren't actively trying to be jerks, so I'd bet that if you had said something to them they probably would have been more embarrassed than anything else and quieted down. Maybe they really are jerks and would have given you a hard time, but at least you tried.
The thing that I always think is hilarious is how people silently grin and bear it but are actually just seething... once they do finally say something, it's angry, rude, loud, or even offensive itself ("You 20somethings are just SO oblivious and have NO regard... etc.). You can't expect them to KNOW you're annoyed unless you say something. Give them a chance to rectify the situation before you take your anger out on them.
2:15 pm
As one who posted what might be one of those "strong reactions," let me revise and extend ...
If this article had simply been just "gee, what do you do when another table is making too much noise or otherwise interfering with your experience," I would have found it simply boring. The answer has got to be either (a) get over it, or (b) say something (preferably politely), or (c) ask the manager to say something. Surely this writer knows that, if he thinks about it.
What took this article beyond the merely boring, and made it so awful that I felt compelled to post (now twice!) is that it is so sprinkled with snottiness about "amateurs," about their chocolate martinis, about the oh-so-horrible faux pas of showing a knee (a sentence that appeared in the bulk email touting the article but not in the article itself I guess), about the terrible woman who is imagined to believe that the writer was flirting with her, etc., all so worked up that the writer calls his enemies-of-the-night animal names. Just weird, negative, and useless.
Yes, it might bring up the page view numbers, but it's no way to run a food section on a site that tries to be useful. Unless bringing up the page view numbers is the one and only goal, I guess.
2:23 pm
To respond to Elizabeth...
I think I had such a strong reaction to this article based on the fact that this is the YOUNG & Hungry column, however it is generalizing its own audience. Perhaps I narrowed in a bit too much on the fact that the scrutiny was towards "20something females" when in fact, I am a 26 year old female who has witnessed males and females of EVERY age acting outside of the realm of what society typically deems "appropriate".
3:11 pm
Um, and how is it that the manager did not already know that this was going on? I mean, this was three patrons sitting in his bailiwick for more than a half hour, apparently dominating the room's noise and activity, to the consternation of other patrons, and the manager had to be told?? Russia House needs a better manager, at least during that shift.
Self-help is inappropriate. It's bad manners to publicly rebuke bad manners. Sorry, it just is.
This is a business that invites you there to enjoy yourself and then pay for it. The remedy in this situation is to (i) leave before you eat, and (ii) let management know why you won't be back. If Russian House wants your business, it will fix this pronto.
3:51 pm
I agree with SH. What has made me re-read this post and read the comments is how little the title has to do with the content. What was "vulgar" about their behavior? That they ordered chocolate martinis with their shashlik? When I first saw the title I thought the article was going to be a gripe about "amateur" diners not realizing their amuse bouches were edible and throwing them out, using the wrong forks, ordering a zin and complaining it wasn't pink, etc. Instead, I'm supposed to agree that a group of girls drinking martinis having too much fun and talking too loudly at a place like the Russia House are "amateur" diners? They may be obnoxious diners, but not sure how you get to amateur or vulgar, unless you're completely relying on a thesauraus and not actually considering the context and meaning of the words you chose to use.
11:16 pm
Like so many others, I have been the highly involuntary eavesdropper at too many shrieks of gaggles of geese, and I too am perplexed at the term "amateur." The situation is not eased by the fact that many restaurants are set up to amplify, not diminish, the noise of women (for whatever reason, at the places where I eat, it seems to be almost invariably women who are perpetrators) who are oblivious to the fact that their voices carry and do so increasingly with every passing drink.
I would suggest commenting to your waiter that the offending group may not realize that they are sharing their conversation with everyone else around. Of course, some may act entitled, but there is a possibility that some may realize that they haven't realized how the acoustics of the restaurant they are at work.
9:18 am
Oh, no, women were enjoying themselves while out socially! What is the world coming to? Clutch your pearls and cry moar, sweetie, that women were being loud and boisterous and having fun, not quiet and timid, waiting for your precious social approval.
12:00 pm
Havoc: Amanda's gone. Let's not invite her back...
1:47 pm
As a DC resident, it was actually extremely "amateur" to go to the Russia House and not expect that at least some of your fellow patrons would be somewhat "spirited." The upstairs rooms of the Russia House are widely regarded as a bar, and one where people go to get drunk, not do some kind of tasting menu.
1:55 pm
@JKR: The incident in question happened in one of the downstairs dining rooms, which only have about five tables in close quarters. After dinner, we had a most enjoyable time upstairs listening to the Thursday night violinist.
2:00 pm
Let's continue the fun by discussion some other customer behavior some may deem annoying:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/youngandhungry/2011/01/12/attention-open-kitchen-lovers-your-chit-chat-may-annoy-others/
2:52 pm
Five years ago my boyfriend and I celebrated our one year anniversary at Citronelle (we're now married). The food was fantastic, the service impeccable, the neighboring table...loud. And drunk. Two women, glammed to the nines and about our age (mid-twenties) were laughing it up and turning around to talk to other tables in all directions. At one point, one of them was hanging on her waiter (she tried to stand, he saved her from falling right over). They weren't necessarily saying anything bad, in fact they were very happy drunks, but it was inappropriate. We were both slightly amused and annoyed by them, but I guess since no one complained, no move was made to get them to calm down or leave. I suspect they were staying at the hotel and, given the proclomation by one of them to a nearby table that "We don't 'work' for a living", I suspect they were entitled brats who tended to get away with this act wherever they went. Still, it was a great meal.
1:19 pm
Fit subject for an article? Obviously, judging by the number and thoughtful nature of the comments. Were the offending women already there and loud when you were seated? Was there a dining room manager available? If not was an attempt made to speak to him? In other words if attempts to deal civilly with this and met with no concern from the manager the problem doesn't get solved by glaring or more active intervention. And, yes, there are people who do all kinds of unseemly things in public that grate on the sensitivities of a discriminating diner, whether drinking milk with their spaghetti or having a dessert cocktail while still eating their entree. However, I'm quite happy that regardless of how poor someone's taste may be it's their taste and they're entitled to it. It's galling to pay a lot for a meal only to have it ruined by obnoxious or overperfumed neighbors. When it's the only opportunity in weeks even moreso. Perhaps you gained something more valuable - learning how to graciously deal with an incident like this in the future or,possibly, to head it off by letting the manager deal with it.
1:05 pm
I have a naturally loud laugh and I occasionally get shushed in restaurants. Some people are assholes about it and some people deal with it with good humour. No matter what, I always try to be gracious in response; I apologize for my loudness and then tone things down as best I can. But in order for that to happen, you have to ASK. Glaring and rolling your eyes and huffing just makes you seem like a twat and, as you yourself observed, sometimes sends mixed messages.
The nicest shushing I ever got was from a waitress -- I don't know if she did it on the behalf of the management or whether another diner asked her or what, but what she said to me was "we really love that you're having fun but we need you to quiet down a bit." That tiny positive spin made the experience totally non-embarrassing and non-shaming, and I was happy to help. Can't people be adults about stuff from time to time?
P.S. I'm 39 and I have a Ph.D., so this has nothing to do either with being young or with being "amateur", whatever that means.
3:05 am
I would think an "amatuer" diner means someone who doesn't know the "mature" way to act in a fine dining setting. I've NEVER been in a fine restaraunt, nicest place I ever went was the Elephant Bar, and could hardly afford a single ice cream sandwich. Anyway, in fine dining, (meaning sure expensive places where you dress in gowns and suits to get into) the ideal way to act, even with alcohol present, I would think would be quiet, controlled, mature and overall just a neat, clean "cut and dry" way of having a polite and quiet meal, and of course where you don't get drunk (in a perfect world lol). Now a person who didn't act quiet, mature, neat, and polite at a meal in an expensive, fine dining setting, might be considered "amature" as in not knowing the right way to act. Now in a regular restaraunt, applebees, texas roadhouse, chilis, over the border. sure, being loud and crazy or just being a normal person having fun at a meal and wouldn't be "amateur" at all, its just eating out. Anyway, I had a friend once who laughed too loud all the time...it was embarrassing. The rest of us would stop laughing with her and shrink down in our seats.-not to be mean, but her laugh was so loud it usually startled us into silence! I usually was looking around apologetically at the very annoyed people who would look our way with concencending faces. The few times she was asked to queit down, we were all embarrassed. Not only was it loud, it was...unique, in a way that made us stand out even more. Thing is, no matter how nice we were about saying she was too loud, she'd get mad and loudly (and sarcastically) apologize about her volume (I would guess her way of dealing with embarrassment). Sometimes she'd go so far as to stand up or dance around depending on what she was talking about....it's been years since then and she and I haven't spoken in just as long. Not because of that particular dinner, but in all truth people are just people. No need to judge or generalize anything about anyone. Best thing is to deal with it, or ignore it. Sitting in between just ends up impacting you and no one else.