The Sexist

Misogyny: Geeks vs. Jocks

Relevant to this blog's conversations on geek feminism and male-dominated nerddom: Restructure! argues that misogyny in geek spaces is a product of the construction of geek masculinity, which sees itself as a necessarily male rival to the Alpha male "jock" identity:

Most male geeks believe that they are subverting traditional masculinity by reclaiming and self-identifying with the term “geek”. For most male geeks, geek identity is defined partly as a rejection of the “jock” identity. According to the traditional high school male social hierarchy, jocks are high-status males and male geeks are low-status males; jocks are alpha males and male geeks are beta males; jocks are masculine and male geeks are “effeminate." Thus, when a man proudly self-identifies as a “geek” in response, what he is doing is redefining what it is to be a man, redefining geek identity as masculine.

Typical male geeks argue that to be a geek is to be masculine by interpreting the scientific, mathematical, and technological achievements of overwhelmingly male persons as definitive proof that science, math, and technology are inherently male and define maleness. Such male geeks typically argue that there are innate differences between male and female brains that make success in science, math, and technology exclusive to men. Thus, arguments and studies that suggest otherwise are perceived as a direct attack on the masculinity and male identity of male geeks. According this male geek worldview, if women are equally capable in science, math, and technology, then male geeks lose their claim on masculinity and become low-status, beta, and “effeminate” males once again, because there would be nothing left to separate male geeks from women. Thus, male geeks—much more than non-geek men—tend to be emotionally and socially invested in maintaining the idea women’s brains are hardwired against understanding science, math, and technology to the same extent as men.

The piece makes me curious about the relative experiences of women in geek vs. jock cultures. Does the inherent gender-segregation of the jock's world (at least in the traditional athletic sense) preclude arguments over who should be let into the club, or merely exacerbate disputes over the natural hard-wiring of women and men?

Photo via katybate, Creative Commons Attribution License 2.0

Comments

  1. #1

    My experience is that we're screwed either way. :P

  2. #2

    I've been in both worlds as Token Laydee and I've found that the jocks are always stoked to have a mascot, and they're very secure in their belief that I am an exceptional female to be sure, but I could never kick their extremely manly asses so it's okay. Basically, from them I get chivalry and patronizing. \o/ And then when I prove myself more physically capable than about half of them, I get promoted to Dude Status and get treated as though I actually am a man, including assumptions about my sexual preference.

    Geek circles unfailingly reduce me to sex. I'm there for the hot actors, or for the hot male geeks (where are those?). I don't really understand the science, I just like the romance plots, or I am an Enlightened Female (always a female, never a woman - what's up with that?) who has wisely chosen to seek the Smart Male for a mate (there tends to be a lot of dickish evolutionary psychology going on). If I object to any of this is it because I am ugly, and they wouldn't want to fuck me anyway (unless I'm offering).

  3. #3

    I think it's a gross generalization to say all male geeks affirm their masculinity by characterizing math/science/ technology skills as non-feminine traits. Not to say that there's no misogyny amongst geeks, I just don't think its nearly as big of a problem as the jocks' approach.

  4. #4

    She never said all.

  5. #5

    "I’m there for the hot actors, or for the hot male geeks (where are those?)"

    - We're right over here.

    The geeks that give you that misogynistic reaction just haven't been shaken out of their limited self-perception. And, (if you'll allow me to aim some "dickish evolutionary psychology" in the geek's direction) they've just been socialized to do so.

    'Round about the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic the human body stopped evolving. Back then, if you messed with one of the females who belonged to that "Alpha" caste without permission from the tribal leadership, a guy's life was in danger. Through cultural adaptation to the environment and technological innovation, many of the aspects of that fact have been preserved, BUT many of them have also passed into history.

    Society still says to the Geek "you are of lesser physical strength, size and ability to protect / provide, therefore, you are of lower value to a female as a mate." That's where the castes still separate and the geek secedes to the relative comfort of the chess club or the D&D game board.

    Why wouldn't they reject that social dynamic and seek out their own definition of coolness?

    Running with the social group that aligns to the "Alpha male" athletic counterparts you associate with just means you're the baby that's being thrown out with the bathwater when the "geek circle" is formed. It's an act of secession - a Declaration of Geekdom that rejects the larger heuristic and declares a new order.

    What can REALLY bake the noodle of an "exceptional female" such as yourself is when a member of that geek circle can demonstrate value as high - if not higher than your jock buddies and show their kind of confidence.

    Chase confidence, athletic or not. But pay particular attention when you see it in the Geeks.

    Kick enough sand in a guy's face in high school, and it can motivate him to accomplish some amazing things.

    Besides, we're better in bed.

    - Archangel

  6. #6

    Hmm... Even when I was in public high-school there was at least a few women who were jocks. My impression of the preppy private high-school in town was that they encouraged even more (field hockey, lacrosse, swimming, tennis, track.) And even though today they're trying to work around Title 9 by declaring cheerleading a sport the average geek should still be encountering a lot more actual women who are unambiguous jocks... who could also snap the stereotypical geek in half.

    Just one more reason tying geekiness to alt-masculinity just doesn't seem like a very good idea.

    Not that a lot of male geeks don't see it that way anyhow. It just suggests they're not as bright, or as alt, as they imagine themselves.

    ---

    @Kitty: your summary of alpha-geek entitlement is an excellent example of why alt-masculinity is rarely an improvement over regular masculinity.

    ---

    Finally, the notion that "beta" males can construct a separate masculinity in which they can excel just emphasizes how goony the whole notion of having to "become a man" really is. Among other things it's totally buying into the notion that there's something besides having a Y chromosome and/or approximate anatomy, orientation, or identity you have to do to turn into one, even if it's not whatever it is that jocks do.

    figleaf

  7. #7

    "Typical male geeks argue ..." So many stereotypes in just four words! What good does it do to think about human relationship filtered through such thinking.

  8. #8

    @figleaf

    To be fair, pretty much every society stratifies itself into factions (Locke), and, being political animals, we're not going to break that habit easily.

    I'd have to challenge you on the lack of necessity to "become a man".

    It's just what the aforementioned "beta" males need. They're fooling themselves into thinking that their alternative misogyny is acceptable.

    The reality is that to "become a man" is be able to handle conflict in positive ways, have reasonable and proportionate reactions to emotional events, be able to set and achieve goals.

    The external demonstrations of value for both versions of masculinity are equally thin and useless. Great, you can crash the boards and dunk over the brawniest of players. Can you significantly relate to a woman when she's in crisis and provide her comfort?

    Awesome, you've collected every vinyl printing of every Dylan record and you just had lattes with The Hives. Did that dot.com you started succeed, or did you just let it die off like the thousand other half-ass project you endeavor to complete.

    "Become a man."

    Hold her when she's crying and tell her it's ok. Get off your ass and out of the Starbucks and accomplish something.

    True masculinity is about one thing: actions.

    Archangel

  9. #9

    Reading this article makes me sad, because in my personal experience geeks tend to be *less* misogynistic. They're more honest about preferring "fat" bodies, they see sex toys as an asset rather than a threat, and they don't make a big deal about being seen as effeminate because sometimes that's how they feel they really are.

    Then again, I tend to meet my geeks through sex-positive education classes and BDSM parties, so I guess live in a bubble.

  10. #10

    @ Molly

    With social isolation comes freedom, and appearing "effeminate" disarms women who normally throw up the stopsign when the Ed Hardy-clad Jersey Shore-style alpha male approaches.

    "Effeminate" is non-threatening. "Effeminate" doesn't pick fights with the bouncer and try to carry you off to the cave after bodyshots.

    You wouldn't believe how many women I come into contact with who have put up with bad sex with "Alpha males" and then completely had their minds blown by a geek that is a more giving and more powerful lover.

    //hifive// for the sex-positive education by the way.

  11. #11

    “'Effeminate' is non-threatening. 'Effeminate' doesn’t pick fights with the bouncer and try to carry you off to the cave after bodyshots."

    Heh, well, maybe we're defining "Effeminate" differently, but the biggest thing I've learned from the boys who look/act like girls is that you have to get to know them before you assume anything about their actions. (Which I still sometimes suck at, but I try.) The stories I could tell about some of the girly men I've known! ;)

  12. #12

    Archangel, I am not convinced. All of your postings vis a vis women seem to harken back to one, and only one, purpose for knowing, helping, loving, or even talking to one: getting her into bed. If you can't see the inherent misogyny in that point of view, you do not have as much perspective as you pretend.

    I've heard the "geeks do it better" line more than I care to count. It makes me throw up a little in my mouth. I've been friends with the geek-clique at every school I've ever attended. Most of my boyfriends have been geeks of one stripe or another. But that doesn't mean I will sleep with a geek because he is a geek. And plenty of my so-called friends have completely called off the friendship after I (politely or not) rejected their pick up attempt.

    So don't repeat a few lines of sophomoric pop-evo-psych analysis that your friends comfort each other with when geek-chick-of-the-month did not agree that their mutual interest in anime cosplay was a free pass into her panties. Sexual prowess doesn't make you a man any more than athletic prowess does. Why not give up masculinity and try being a decent human being instead?

  13. #13

    The stories I could tell about some of the girly men I’ve known! ;)

    Ha, yeah this.
    And from personal experience I do think it's more the BDSM circle than the geek circle that "allows" the stereotype breakdowns more, Molly Ren. I'm involved in a poly and bdsm group in my area and it sounds about the same. Yes, there's a hell of a lot of geeks in the group, but there's also jocks and some people who are *gasp* both.
    That said, my most misogynistic ex-boyfriend (and really fucking bad lay) is involved in that same group so uh, yeah.

  14. #14

    @Molly Ren - We're totally talking past each other. That's precisely what I was getting at.

    @K

    Your default to attack mode in your post leaves me some concern that you might still be wounded about being treated like the "geek-chick-of-the-month."

    For the record, in person, I stand 6'4" tall, with blonde hair, green eyes. I'm 29 years old, have run an entire district of a fortune 500 company, spent a year in a combat zone and do volunteer work for two national charitable foundations. I'm divorced (left by my wife for another man while I was on a deployment) and happily (and monogamously) dating a knock-out professional red-head.

    I also have a degree in political theory.

    My friends mocked me for years about being a "modelizer", since the majority of my female liaisons before this relationship were considered (in the previous dialogue) 9's and 10's.

    My thing was never Anime cosplay (had to google that). It was musical theater. Call me crazy, but I just adored singing and acting. Built like a linebacker, but in love with Rogers & Hammersteins. Go figure.

    And because of that, and some pretty harsh social structures that were a part of MY high school experience and some pretty harsh encounters with "Alpha" females that happened to me in my teens by the time I hit college, I was a social wreck.

    Failure to launch doesn't begin to describe it. IMMENSE social anxiety and glaring self-confidence.

    It wasn't until after I was shaken out of the paradigm and really concentrated on improving myself that I really began to understand that the majority of your quality of life depends on how much social static you can train yourself to ignore.

    The simple fact is the misogyny finger you point at me would more aptly be oriented toward those who attempted to befriend you (deceptively) and then gave you the fade when they found out you wanted more out of your interaction than being used like exercise equipment.

    And, I'd wager, those men were only expecting that from youas a femGeek counterpart because they lacked the social skill, self-confidence and boldness to date outside of your social circle.

    I teach men in just that situation to put down the 20-sided dice, take a hard look at the limiting beliefs that are keeping them marooned in the World of Warcraft.

    Sharing my experience and helping others realize their limitations are only mental is my way of enriching the lives of my fellow man.

  15. #15

    (.) (A)

    Also, wtf is a "professional red-head"?

  16. #16

    Ha. Sorry.

    I meant to say that she's an independent "professional" who has a career, is independent etc.

    BTW Anime cosplay looks pretty dope. Those conventions must be a trip.

  17. #17

    Even though I've found misogyny in both groups, overall geeks are more forgiving of women than jocks, in my experience. Geek types tend to be a little more accepting of different body types-- in real life, anyway: on the internet everyone seems to become a tremendous ass when it comes to talking about women's bodies (I believe this is a symptom of Internet Tough Guy Syndrome).

    Also, I find that the men who "do it better" are the ones who are relatively experienced with women and actively interested in finding out what their partners want. An inexperienced, selfish lover is not going to be great in bed, no matter how they identify socially.

  18. #18

    Holy fuck, K... we have a bonafide successful, cis, straight, temporarily able-bodied, neurotypical man in our midst!! Why are you (and I!) atill talking?!? Maybe if we sit here and look pretty enough he can neg us females some while he explains evo-psych to us!

  19. #19

    Yes. Verily Groggette, let us relapse into contemplative silence and partake in deep draughts of the wisdom that is offered unto us, lowly and inexperienced ones without a single date with a "10" the two of us, possibly!

  20. #20

    @Archangel: "The reality is that to “become a man” is be able to handle conflict in positive ways, have reasonable and proportionate reactions to emotional events, be able to set and achieve goals."

    And this set of characteristics would be different from becoming a woman exactly how? Trick question: there is no difference. Neither boys nor girls are born with those qualities but neither boys nor girls can become real adults until they acquire them.

    That's not saying there are no differences at all. Just that they're not significant enough to justify the positions certain male geeks or jocks take with regards to their standing relative to women.

    figleaf

  21. #21

    (Ladies, please, she's gonna be reading this later.)

    Forsooth fair riteous babes, your witty retorts could narry be more ironic.

    I'm not exactly sure why what I've said constitutes being referred to as autistic, but I did notice one thing:

    I was an equal participant in this discourse until I confessed to being stereotypically (externally) part of the (apparent) "jock" crowd.

    I can walk you around the bend with how this succinctly proves my points earlier, but I'd rather take this route...

    Here's a challenge for both of you:

    Wikipedia and google your little altLifestyle hearts out and try and find me one single civilisation in history where the basic characteristics of providorship, protectorship and physical health were not the decisive characteristics of a sexually valuable male.

  22. #22

    @Figleaf

    No contest. Mature and healthy men and women possess both sets of qualities.

    The problem is, a great quantity of the dating pool (on the male side) doesn't display them by the time they're supposed to. i.e. Their emotional and social growth is stunted, either by trauma, largesse or lack of solid male role models.

  23. #23

    You may be with a professional but I wear my varsity jacket around town. I'm better.

  24. #24

    Ya know what. Your're right. Here: you can have my milkmoney.

    Ya know what, take my girlfriend too. I'm gonna go make plans for what I'll do when the rest of you guys are at prom.

  25. #25

    I feel bad picking on Archangel, but I can't help thinking some of you commenters might want to read this, from the website that Archangel links to, just for laughs:

    http://www.covertchemistry.com/operations/bar/

    Sample howler: "It may appear at first glance to the target as if you are genuinely interested in her as a potential mate. This concept will be exponentially reinforced by the unconscious effects that the Sexpionage product will have on her autonomic nervous system. Maintain a nonreactive frame and let go of the outcome and your HVT will be puzzled as to why the funny and attractive man who struck up a conversation is more interested in her friends (or other females) than she."

    Sorry, Archangel. Look, how about you go back to waging your quiet "war between the sexes", and we'll just sit here on the edges and alternate between laughing, and finding ways to get avoid guys who view us as 'targets' or some acronym, or a score out of ten. Because seriously, if the guys who use your website are being taught to think of women in those terms, it's going to come across in the way they treat us.

    ----

    That said, I've had some really good interactions with geek guys over the years. I can't speak for the whole subculture, of course -- I've heard, and have no reason to disbelieve, that there are some specific places where the sexism is pretty bad -- but there are definitely some good, geeky guys out there. I've got a geeky friend who has ended up developing some feminist views just by taking the view that sex is a good thing, so I should study this, and in particular, let's listen to anything that smart women of my acquaintance might have to say about it. And I also have a geeky boyfriend, who was brought up feminist, and who I really have no (feminist) complaints about.

  26. #26

    *grumble grumble* stupid sexpionage, always getting in the way of my one night stands. Sexpionage is code for sexist douchebags right?

  27. #27

    You're right, Lynet. We made all that up. We're responsible for guys rating women on a number scale and stereotypically beautiful women aren't cruel to men who they don't even know.

    In fact, we're responsible for patriarchy, institutional discrimination and the complete objectification of women in general.

    Ya know what, come to think of it, we have trademarks pending on all the paperwork an the customer service training at the northern Virginia DMV.

    The fact is: there are guys who need help.

    It's been my experience that most men in their own minds are experts about three things: politics, fighting and women. Ask the average male in his twenties and he'll tell you he's a colossus and a berserker in a barfight ("I just go nuts, man. I just get crazy"). Ask the average male in his thirties about his views on politics, and you're likely to get an earful of some pundit fodder parrotted faithfully from the lips of a true believer. Women? Every guy on earth is born with the natural inclination to believe he's a dynamo in bed.

    We all know that none of that is true.

    At least not in today's day and age.

    We take nice guys with a track record of getting socially stomped on and help them meet women and build MUTUAL attraction. I certainly wouldn't presume to walk into the lions den of feminism like this if I thought it was indefensible.

    You sure your past Geeks aren't customers?

  28. #28

    @groggette - Let me see if I understand shredded this correctly.... you enjoy pain, multiple partners, (in all likelihood) multiple simultaneous penetrations, and you meet in secret to enjoy these things with likeminded individuals...

    And you're still crankypants about men helping each other improve their social skills?

    In my opinion (and personal practice) one night stands are a bad life decision.

    But while I'm still in the middle of this intellectual feminist pegging gangrape, isn't rather sexist for you to assume that men are somehow "in charge" of one night stands. Seems to me that women are the decisive element in ANY sexual encounter, especially those that are no strings attached.

    If you guys keep this up I'm going to burn my feminist card.

  29. #29

    Hey, Archangel, dude, I'm not saying you're responsible for all the crap men talk about women when they're talking about trying to get laid. Also, I do respect you for engaging with feminists on this issue. But why would you encourage men to think like that? Do you really think it helps?

    Rather than encouraging men to view dating as a war in which women are prizes to be won, why not encourage them to view women as people?

    As for the websites my geek friends read, well, that first friend I mentioned has been reading figleaf's site since I showed it to him (thanks, figleaf). My boyfriend got most of his sex-ed from Scarleteen. Maybe you could get some ideas from there, too?

  30. #30

    @Archangel
    "I teach men in just that situation to put down the 20-sided dice, take a hard look at the limiting beliefs that are keeping them marooned in the World of Warcraft.

    Sharing my experience and helping others realize their limitations are only mental is my way of enriching the lives of my fellow man."

    See, except for the bit about WOW, I was confused. He doesn't *sound* like a geek, I thought, but the tone is familiar. Where have I heard this "I picked myself up by the bootstraps, became successful AND got pussy" story before? Maybe he's a dom-in-training?

    Then I went to your linked page, Covert Chemistry. You, sir, are not a geek, but a Pick-Up Artist!

    I've never read The Game. But besides the fact that I now feel like I've been reading some subtle spam trying to get me to buy something from your site, I find the stuff I *have* read about Pick-Up Artists deeply disturbing: http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/feature/2009/08/06/hatred

    "You sure your past Geeks aren’t customers?"

    I hope not, because I'd see that as a huge red flag.

  31. #31

    "You, sir, are a pickup artist." Guilty!!!

    And apparently "masquerading" as a geek. Actually, that's not really fair to say. I'm a former geek, but I like having a group of diverse friends ad hobbies like improv and scuba / skydiving. I like the fact that I take care of my appearance and am happy with the way I look.

    As for the jargon.... Ladies, we use the language and the metaphors so that men have a mental model to work with.

    I can no more guarantee that our teachings an wares are going to be used for "good" than a guy selling a sex toy can guarantee what orifice it's going into.

    What I can do is make sure the guy I teach know that karma exists, women talk, and no one can escape the consequences of their own actions.

  32. #32

    @Archangel

    re: burning your feminist card

    After reading your comments, I am shaking in my boots at the thought of losing a powerful ally such as yourself.

    Can I lend you a lighter?

  33. #33

    Whoa. I never even saw that link you posted. Blew right past it.

    That nut job was just that: a nutjob. Alot of people IM SURE could have intervened to stop that from happening.

    As for Roissey... He is Gods gift to every guy who does what I do. He has proven that there are fringe element TRUE amateur douchebags out there who really do epitomize the broad brush we get painted with.

    He's a true misogynist. We work with (stable) guys who actually LIKE women.

    And on the topic of viewing women as people... We'd go bankrupt pretty quickly if we didn't teach men to really connect with women on a personal level.

  34. #34

    RE: burning my feminist card

    Our students treat women as TRUE equals, not men who judge them for embracing their sexuality and expressing themselves how they want, not how a paternalistic society tells them to.

    We also give guys the social intelligence to help them create, build and sustain relationships.

    Don't believe me? Check out our lead blogger Luralynn.

    She's a divorced woman who dates like the "stereotypical" man. She's also the managing partner and lead contributor to our next project CougarChemistry.com

  35. #35

    @Lynet: "Rather than encouraging men to view dating as a war in which women are prizes to be won, why not encourage them to view women as people?"

    Bingo!

    In comments over on Em & Lo's blog, on a post about first-date killers, I mentioned getting basically livestock-inspected by an otherwise perfectly pleasant woman who told me right up front that she was looking for "husband material." (I swear at one point she checked my teeth!)

    While she still wasn't being as blatantly genderbound as PUAs she still broadcast the impression that I was a prize, not a person, and if I passed enough of her check-list items she'd start putting some sincere effort into getting to know me. But not before.

    We had a perfectly lovely time, a nice meal in a west African restaurant, good conversation, and a nice walk back to our cars. But there was no second date. I had no, zero, none interest in being a prize. (It was a mutual thing since she was also clear I didn't meet her criteria anyway.)

    And while she did get married (as, eventually did I) it didn't happen till she got off her checklist spree and actually got to know someone first.

    It's the same thing with PUAs or their jock equivalents -- nobody wants to be someone else's prize, their checklist item, their categorical thing. And yeah, it's not that PUAs or anyone else can't see their prospective partners as people. It's that at the end of the day they don't see them as people first!

    Come to think of it my erstwhile was a thorough geek herself. An post-doc engineer in biotech. Which, I think, reinforces the point of the original post. And the ridiculousness of the conceit that "geek" could an exclusive phenomenon of men.

    figleaf

  36. #36

    CougarChemistry! Oh man! Thanks for that. I am really cracking up. Wow.

  37. #37

    So Archangel, when you troll on these sites in order to garner views of your site, how many sites do you troll at once? Do you pay yourself to get hits for your own site?

    Also, that site in and of itself is misogyny. The pictures, the verbiage, the suggested methods of "attack", all point toward a serious lack of actual caring about anything other than getting laid. And using the word "cougar". Wow. Good job.

    Just because a female supports your misogynistic efforts does not negate said misogyny. Plenty of women pull other women down in the effort to keep men close, keep the status quo, fulfill societal expectations, etc.

    But, I mean, good job, considering I went to the site. One more hit for you! Yay!

  38. #38

    Can you ladies stop having sex with pick up artists so I don't have to hear abput them? Please? Think of my feelings.

  39. #39

    Any guy who employs the tactics that Archangel teaches against my single friends has never passed the douche test in our circle. Most women have a tendency to see through being treated like a conquest.

    Anyway, it wasn't until my now-husband (who is a full on geek with a heart of gold and feminist leanings) pointed out to me after being particularily frustrated at a group of LARPers that the reason I couldn't get any sway or word in edgewise was because I wouldn't sleep with any of them. All of a sudden my years being treated like dirt in the geek circle of life started to make sense.

    I can only speak for my own experiences, but 100% of the time, my female geek friends and I was reduced to whether or not we'd sleep with the guys. If we didn't, it was tough shit trying to fit in.

  40. #40

    With geeky men, the thing that I've had to deal with is that I get more of them trying the "friends" angle to try and get in my pants. I'm a game design major, so my program has a disproportionate man to woman ratio, and honestly sometimes I can't tell the difference what these guys want from me. I have to ask myself, how many compliments are too many? Why is this guy being so nice to me, what does he want?

    I've had quite a few bad experiences with male geek friends that inevitably realize I am not ever going to be available to them (and they get really pissy about it, let me tell you) and it's starting to get old.

    Oh, and the best part is when I do really well in school and some asswhipe classmate tells me his theory about how the teacher/program director/everyone is obviously attracted to me and that's why I did well, not the fact that I spent countless sleepless nights working my ass off to get the best result possible out of my work, that I pay attention in critiques and utilize the advice I get from teachers instead of bitching that the teacher doesn't understand my "artistic vision."

    I'm the pretty girl that plays video games, I'm supposed to cosplay in a revealing outfit or be some smelly loser's am candy to justify his social ineptitude and huge toy collection, I'm not supposed to have opinions or talents or feelings.

    As you can see, I'm A LITTLE bitter about the whole situation.

    So I can kind of see the reasoning behind that whole geek misogyny explanation. I think there's a bit of feeling invalidated as men, and the result is that some male geeks lash out in a variety of ways at women.

  41. #41

    Oh and I wanted to be clear - I go to school for game design so, yeah, you can basically assume that we're all huge nerds there.

  42. #42

    @ Kristina

    I'm not trolling anything. I saw an opportunity to add value to an intellectual conversation about geek social dynamics and I commented.

    I don't get paid for anything. All of my clients are pro-bono.

    In fact, my most recent client was a PFC in the Marine Corps who had paralyzing social anxiety when he talked with women of (perceived) higher social value. A United States Marine. A young man conditioned to be able to face the harshest circumstances of the human condition was completely clueless when it came to talking to (stereotypically) attractive females.

    He's an honorable man, and worthy of respect, and I'm proud to have helped him through it.

    @Diz

    It didn't have to be that way. Those guys had other options. They just didn't know it.

    But do me a favor: when you find out that a guy who's dating one of your single friends has worked with a guy like me, don't tell your single friends to 86 him just on that evidence alone. Realize that he's reaching out to someone who can help him him surpass and overcome the social paralysis that he's been conditioned to observe as "normal".

    Men desire love and companionship as much as women do. We're just conditioned to see the process to getting there in a different social frame.

    If I woke up tomorrow and was out of a job, I'd be delighted.

    Unfortunately, for political reasons, links to our site, and our message are deleted and restricted by a "free" media.

    I consider myself a neo-barbarian: the contrapositive to a feminist and just as fervent to achieve feminist goals while preserving male value and autonomy.

    Does every woman deserve respect? Yes. Does every woman need to be treated like an object and have her humanity ignored? No.

    But I see no reason why a girl whom "the world" has labeled a 10 to endure an endless parade of douchebags who just want her for her body while 1000 guys who could nourish and enrich her love of Warhol and real Kebab stand by the wayside unnoticed.

    I refuse to live in that world.

    Thus, I have defined my life's work.

  43. #43

    Oh man, I leave to go to happy hour and that's what you choose to respond to Archangel? Sorry dude, you're neither dropping major wisdom on us or being wildly offensive, you're just coming across as laughably pathetic.

    Now in response to your comment to me, here's a list of all the things I didn't say:
    *You're autistic (I'm assuming this was in response to me).
    *I enjoy pain.
    *I enjoy multiple partners.
    *I enjoy multiple simultaneous penetrations.
    *I meet in secret with like minded individuals.
    *I think men are "in charge" (why the quotes? no one said this) of one night stands

    What I actually said:
    *You're neurotypical or at least present yourself as neurotypical.
    *"I’m involved in a poly and bdsm group in my area"
    *A throwaway joke about douchebags(who I refuse to sleep with) getting in the way of my one night stands.

    Everything you got from that is your own conjecture. If you don't know the definition of words/terms then maybe you should work on your own google/wiki-fu. You're also assuming that I am or would be ashamed of any of those (middle 4) things if they are true.

    Try harder. You so far suck at trolling.

  44. #44

    and I suck at html closures.

  45. #45

    I'm not a science/math geek, so I can't say whether or not being good math gets the misogynistic geeks pissy.

    I think it's a guy's relationship to sex and girls that's the bigger indicator--saying that girls do just fine in math isn't as emasculating than not getting laid.

  46. #46

    Archangel was a shitty X-Man, anyway. Almost as useless as Jubilee. That should've tipped us all off right away.

  47. #47

    That's fair, at least until the X-Factor series.

    But can you think of a better wingman?

  48. #48

    @ Groggette I find it hillarious that you made up a word that already existed.

    "Neurotypical" is a clinical term used to describe mild autistics who appear to function like the rest of society but are extreme introverts.

    I have to admit, all the experiences I've had with your subculture have been negative. I've never met anyone who engaged in those activities who didn't have rather obviously serious pathologies in their lives.

  49. #49

    Archangel

    Groggette did not make up the word neurotypical, and it does not describe mild autism.

    Neurotypical is a term coined by the the autistic community to describe anyone not on the autistic spectrum. It is a less ableist term than calling those who are not on the autistic spectrum 'normal', implying that anyone with any degree of autism is abnormal.

  50. #50

    Thank you NbyNW. Although I was using it in the wider sense of neurotypical being anyone who has no mental "abnormalities" (agreed, very ableist term), not just autism.

    Archangel,
    I'm quaking in my leather and latex at your arm chair psychoanalysis of me.

  51. #51

    @Athenia

    Oh, I am a math and science geek, and I've definitely seen misogynist geeks get pissy when a woman (me) outperforms them in the sciences. A geek-woman often faces open hostility or subtly nasty misogynist jokes when she performs well, whereas a high-performing geek-man does not.

    Not that all geeks are raging misogynists, either. But one of the problems with geek culture is that the geeks who don't actually hate women still support the misogyny by not speaking up. Here's what I mean: Douchewad Joe tells a sickening misogynist joke and a few guys laugh out loud (also douches) while the one woman present is definitely uncomfortable, but knows if she calls DJoe out on his crap, she's the one being "oversensitive", and DJoe won't listen to a woman, anyways...

    But why can't all those Decent Bobs say something? When Bob laughs uncomfortably at the joke and doesn't want to make it a big deal, he is contributing to misogynist culture, even though he would never say something that offensive himself. By not speaking up, Bob has publicly accepted the misogyny. And Bob is anything but alone: geek culture itself condones Bob's silence, because hey, geeks aren't part of that PC mainstream oversensitivity, and he's just trying to be funny, right? That's just one aspect of geek misogyny that I am just Oh! so lucky to experience.

  52. #52

    If you guys keep this up I’m going to burn my feminist card.

    Shorter Archangel: [BONERS]

  53. #53

    Well, the NT(neurotypical) comment was one of the things I was going to comment on, but it seems NbyNW and Groggette has already sorted it out. NT is used as a synonym for 'normal', meaning no mental illnesses or other unusual differences. The two of you put it very well. :) (I'm used to hearing the term NT as I know some AS people and have read quite a bit about AS).

    To the subject at hand.
    In my experience it is impossible to say 'geek culture' and then describe it as a whole unit, because it isn't. Geek cultures would be more appropriate. There's great differences between the different branches of geekdom.
    Personally I 'belong' to the sci-fi/fantasy crowd and even that one is a pretty diverse group. In that geek group I also identifies a part of the costumer and cosplay culture, but not the anime group.
    Somewhere in this culture of sci-fi/fantasy/costuming/cosplaying I've meet some pretty cool guys, who hasn't reduced me to sex, but I've also heard my share of suggestions on 'sexy' costumes I could do. Though this is mostly said jockingly.(And I refuse to 'sex up' a costume; I'm all for accuracy. Doesn't mind sexy costumes though).
    Most of the misogyny I have experienced has actually come from people outside this geek culture(or other geek cultures) that doesn't seem to understand how I, as a woman, can be so interested in these things and so 'geeky'. Especially when I have been cosplaying outside of conventions. So yes, there is some notion existing that women shouldn't be geeks or interested in geeky things.

    I really think it's not so much about being a geek or a jock or whatever. It's about personality and how you wiev your fellow humans whether man, woman or something else.
    The best you can do is really just try to be yourself and let others see you as you are. Then they will either have to accept that that is the way you are or find someone else.
    Wish it was that simple.

  54. #54

    I've had the same thing happen as @Lisa says, "I’ve had quite a few bad experiences with male geek friends that inevitably realize I am not ever going to be available to them (and they get really pissy about it, let me tell you)"

    The wide acceptability of this tactic ('befriending' a woman, then dumping her if she won't sleep with you) hurts women by impeding access. My engineering grad program operates on informal study groups of friends and friendly acquaintances, so when this un-friending occurs, it's not just about losing a jerky friend, it's about being pushed out of a study group that was helping your grades.

    It creates one more tiny hurdle we have to 'bootstrap' ourselves over, and it does not happen to the dudes.

    (Oh, and to actually address the post, this affirms geeks' masculinity by asserting their power over women.)

  55. #55

    Well, I'm 100% a self-identified geek and nerd (geek referring to sci-fi/fantasy/etc enthusiasm, nerd referring to my math and science skills). I've had some mixed experiences.

    For example, I was in the chess club at my local high school, only somehow nobody there ever played chess (only Risk and similar games) so it was more like the "LGBTA board game club." It was pretty laid-back, and the guys were perfectly welcoming of women but didn't see us in a sexual way.

    I did find in an engineering school I was in (but didn't finish cause I realised it just wasn't right for me) the guys were largely socially awkward, and did kinda view the pretty girls (ie, NOT me at the time) as a chance for sex.

    I still wound up in a hard-science major, but I've only ever had one of my classmates try flirting with me, but he was very nice and respectful anyways... but most of my other classmates treated me just like they treated other guys (except for one point when I pointed out that the stereotypically "female" trait of reading instruction manuals meant that I could get better results on an experiment. Then I saw something kind of click, that they started actually thinking critically about gender roles).

    Now, most of the geeks that I hang out with are more the sci-fi/DnD type geeks, and when they see female geeks they're generally happy that there are women sharing in their interests. It's not really a sexual thing, either, but more that they're happy that I can share in what they enjoy, or that their geeky little sister will have role models, or they can help us network with their other female geek friends - in general, their reaction to female geeks is "high-five!" rather than "oooh pix plz?". And, I LOVE hanging out with those kinds of guys =)

  56. #56

    Archangel: that is a set of requirements absolutely, positively dripping with all sorts of intersting flavours of privilege. Having "reasonable and proportionate reactions to emotional events" pretty much requires being both neurotypical and having not had any seriously traumatic experience. Being "able to set and achieve goals" again requires being neurotypical, but there's also a whole lot of other stuff that can get in the way - lack of financial stability, illness and disability, poor social standing, etc. Just how you can "handle conflict" depends how physically and vocally intimidating you're perceived as. And so on...

  57. #57

    This is total and complete bullshit, and this post demonstrates that feminism is intellectually bankrupt, and many feminists are illiterate morons.

    1) So brains vs. brawn are inversely correlated? Really? Wow is that belief based on science or just retarded stereotypes you absorbed from watching hours and hours of shit television.

    2) The stereotypes of Nerds and Jocks are Misandrist and anti-intellectual. As a man and an intellectual I am deeply offended. According to these media stereotypes men come in two flavors:

    A) Big dumb brutes who are good at sports and other physical activities.

    B) Borderline autistic weirdos who are technically gifted but socially retarded.

    These misandrist stereotypes are every bit as offensive as the anti-black stereotypes in "Birth of a Nation," and the minstrel shows of the 19th century. Of course because of political correctness you can't criticize anti-male stereotypes, and the retards who learned everything they know about gender from watching "the big bang theory."

  58. #58

    Thanks, Mr. Hatfield, for introducing the 900lb gorilla in the room.

    You ladies have gotten just what your intellectual predecessors asked for: a generation of men neutered by their own socialization. You date the man that supplicates himself and desire the man who's independent enough to call you on your misandrist bullshit.

    Are men and women equal? Yes. But they're not identical.

    What really scares the feminists in the room (and on this thread) is the fact that guys like us (and by us I mean MY community, not necessarily Mr. Hatfield) is that we've turned your regime against itself. We're not willing to submit to your demands anymore.

    What the majority of straight women (i.e. those who use the leather and latex sparingly and don't engage in the aforementioned various permutations of sexual activities //shudder//) in America want is confidence.

    We've got it. Others don't. But don't take my word for it.

    http://miter.mit.edu/node/188

  59. #59

    As the female manager of a dozen male software developers and two women, I say: these guys are excluded from almost every area of normal life. If they want to build their own fortress of Monty Python in-jokes and Star Trek analogies, and exclude other people, it doesn't bother me.

  60. #60

    @Archangel

    I lol'd.

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