Male Scientist “Rankled” By Dinner for Women Scientists
Submitted (mostly) without comment: An e-mail message sent to the Female Science Professor blog:
On a department-wide email list for all post-docs, I received an invitation to an event that was not addressed to me. The email was addressed only to women; it invited women to attend a women's scientific society dinner held on the university campus. I understood that I was excluded from the event because of my gender.
This email traffic and the event itself are so far into my post-doc one of the only instances where I have felt discriminated against; this certainly isn't the norm. It would be easy enough for me to ignore this single incident, I suppose, but nonetheless it's rankled me. To me it seems like an example of a disconnect between the ideals of a discrimination-free workplace and the practices that supposedly further this ideal.
To me, this seems like an example of the disconnect between a dude who has never noticed discrimination in science before and the, oh, two whole hours that his voice won't be explicitly privileged in the academy. FSP replies: "I wish I could say that my only experience with 'discrimination' was not being invited to an event like this." [Thanks to Geek Feminism Blog for the tip].
10:19 am
Meh it's discrimination but who cares.
10:30 am
Posting as myself again.
"one of the only instances where I have felt discriminated against"
LRN2READ, Amanda. He didn't said he didn't notice discrimination against women in science. At least FSP got it right.
Oh, or was he supposed to be like "well, I guess some discrimination's okay"? Is that the path to living in a world with equal rights, privileges and education for all sexes? You are the best feminist.
10:31 am
He didn’t said he didn’t notice discrimination against women in science.
Uh, yeah he did. He said it by complaining about, as Amanda put it, "the, oh, two whole hours that his voice won’t be explicitly privileged in the academy." LRN2THINK.
10:38 am
Just because he's never felt discrimination before means he can't point it out when he sees it. Hmmmm I call bullshit.
10:44 am
Jess:
What? Where did you read that? Are you making things up? He is not allowed to complain when he feels discriminated against? Only women can? Seriously. Pick your battles. You all sound like a bunch of screechy idiots.
"Just because he’s never felt discrimination before means he can’t point it out when he sees it"
Yes because every man must at all times be squawking about how privileged he is and how women everywhere are being held back. He's butthurt he didn't get a free meal. Does he need to put a disclaimer in each email? If someone gets mad that they don't get what they want, do they have to explicitly say "* also some other people do not get what they want and that is also not fair"? O M G.
10:54 am
Oh, and: "Meh it’s discrimination but who cares." -kza
makin' progress everyday~~
10:59 am
Uh, yeah he did. He said it by complaining about, as Amanda put it, “the, oh, two whole hours that his voice won’t be explicitly privileged in the academy.” LRN2THINK.
Uh, no he did not. He stated "To me it seems like an example of a disconnect between the ideals of a discrimination-free workplace and the practices that supposedly further this ideal," implying that he is fully aware of discrimination against females and assumed that a discrimination-free workplace would be, you know, discrimination free.
11:00 am
Dude's got a point. Oh wait, it's a dude. No he doesn't. Discrimination only counts when you're in the majority of discriminated against people.
11:00 am
The way I see it, it's kind of like if Justin Bieber had not been nominated for a BET award (which he was) and complained about how it was discriminatory. But BET did nominate him, because he's a successful crossover artist, so maybe this guy just needs to be a more successful crossover with the ladies. Not complaining about how you're being discriminated against by people who are routinely discriminated against might be a good start.
11:02 am
Why exactly do you guys comment here when you have absolutely no interest whatsoever in understanding how male privilege really functions? Do you like getting mad, or do you like getting laughed at, or what? Just too much free time?
11:09 am
I post here because I like making privileged white girls mad on the internet. U mad?
But indulge me, Jess, and break it down. Only using the quoted email, tell me exactly what's wrong with a person feeling bad about being disqualified for some event based on a characteristic (sex) they were born with and are unable to change?
One time late at night I tried to get a taxi but none of them were really stopping for me, and maybe it's because I'm a guy and it's late and maybe it's because of my skin color and I was thinking that someone who is a woman like Amanda with a cadaverous pallor to her skin and breasts that are not so big they make her look like a slut, she can probably get a taxi easier or service in a nice restaurant better than me and I think she should mention this in every post here because since she thinks she cares a lot about discrimination she should always take the opportunity to point it out when she sees or hears about it.
11:09 am
Not wanting to be excluded is a privalege? huh
11:11 am
@Jess: my guesses are a and c. Also: Keith B = Tasha?
To complain of discrimination when one belongs a privileged group is nonsensical and NOT equal to a complaint of discrimation from a person of minority status on the part of a privileged group. It wouldn't make sense for me, as a white person, to complain that the Black Student Union won't let me participate in their group (I haven't actually tried...). As a group that is routinely discriminated against and marginalized, some black students may have created a group within which they have a stronger sense of community, power, and voice. White people, by virtue of our status in society, have that stuff ALL THE TIME. Just like with this example...men in academia have the institutional power, and therefore cannot really be "discriminated" against in the true sense of the word. Women, as the minority group here, are just looking to create their own space, and this guy has a stick up his ass because he can't share his thoughts with everyone all the time always.
11:11 am
But indulge me, Jess, and break it down
Not my job. Educate yourself. If you gave a shit, it would be incredibly easy for you to do even minimal research. One thing you would find out is that there is more than one kind of privilege, and some people who lack one (white privilege) have others (male privilege)! It's not a very hard concept but you have to try just a tiny, tiny bit.
11:14 am
@Jess
I cannot fathom any reason why that pack of ignoramuses continues to post here. They don't understand, they don't want to learn, most if not all aren't actually capable of understanding...yet they continue to type.
Basic concepts like the meaning of 'equality'...apparently they CANNOT UNDERSTAND. Explaining things to them just leads to toys flying out of the pram.
And I find this male scientist irksome.
11:15 am
I always feel a little bad when I point out that it's not my job to educate people who don't actually want to be educated, and then someone else comes in and explains it really well. Katie, do you want to play good cop/bad cop with me? :)
11:19 am
Right on everyone, women scientists aren't allowed to complain about centuries of institutionalized discrimination if they want to create, for two hours, a space in which they are protected from discrimination. Hypocrites!
11:21 am
(Previous comment was sarcasm, forgot how poorly that translates to the internet.)
11:22 am
@Jess - sure, I'm usually bad cop so this is a nice change of pace for me.
11:23 am
Expecting not to be excluded is a privilege, yes.
11:24 am
"This email traffic and the event itself are so far into my post-doc one of the only instances where I have felt discriminated against; this certainly isn’t the norm"
UNLIKE FOR ALL THE WOMEN SCIENTISTS WHOM YOU ARE TRYING TO INTIMIDATE INTO BEING QUIET SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL LIKE MAYBE THE WORLD ISN'T ABOUT YOU!!!
*cough* Okay, I feel better now. What a privileged douchebag.
11:27 am
So Emily, why do *you* post here? To exchange highfives, you-go-girls and boost the other posters self-esteem? To make feminism a more approachable, inclusive concept in order to further it's goals, and teach people unfamiliar, or even hostile to it, that it shouldn't be something they should fight? It can't be that, The Sexist and its band of angry resident cronies (crones? lol) is doing a terrible job of that. Or maybe you and Jess have too much free time because you sure are easy to troll.
1. Amanda makes snarky "lolMen" barely-any-story-here post.
2: Reply w/ a male name.
3: ...
4: Angry womyn wasting time at their keyboards!
Katie: I wasn't Tasha. She so crazy!
11:28 am
"WOMEN SCIENTISTS WHOM YOU ARE TRYING TO INTIMIDATE INTO BEING QUIET"
see this is why I love this place, it's like half the people are on angel dust
11:28 am
Disagreeing with you and 'not understanding' are not the same thing.
11:31 am
No...if you disagree with the correct conclusion there's some aspect that you're not understanding.
11:35 am
@Keith B: damn, love a good pin-the-tail-on-the-troll. Though, as you yourself point out - Tasha is "crazy," routinely gets criticized for her arguments, and, LO AND BEHOLD! Has a female name. Your point that male names on here get attacked simply for being male is just tired - I can think of male-named commenters who do just fine on here all the time.
Coming on here to insult Amanda's blogs(if her posts have barely any story, WHY ARE YOU HERE), their commenters, and feminists in general just strikes everyone who is here for genuine discussion (and yes, that includes regular disagreements BETWEEN feminists! omfg imagine such a thing!) as pretty odd.
11:39 am
When do I start to reap the benifits of being a white male? I want my damn privalege!!!
11:39 am
@drsnacks listen to yourself. ridiculous.
11:39 am
Katie, all trolling of Jess aside, I do agree with you, and appreciate that you make a levelheaded explanation of why you feel the way you do about the email. Fire Amanda, hire Katie!
I just don't think this is such a BFD. I'd say slow news day, but this is hardly journalism (and probably not editorializing either, unless two sarcastic and sentences of an overblown response counts as such in alt media), so maybe it's slow feminism day? Is this the best thing to get mad about today? Some MAN, how dare he, is butthurt he can't score free dinner at an SWE function! Let's read waaay far into this and pillory this anon for HOLDING DOWN WOMEN EVERYWHERE! Since I'm done trolling, I'll get my pitchfork and jump on the bandwagon.
I BET THE MANSCIENTIST HAS A SMALL WEENER, AND CAN'T FIND THE CLIT!! AMIRITE GIRLS AMIRITE
11:40 am
Actually, I think the chain of events is more like this:
1. Amanda, who writes a blog, things which are intended to be either pithy or lengthy depending on subject (e.g. this one is a good pithy example), writes something snarky and/or poignant to those reading who relate.
2. Ladies and gents (and all in between!) alike reply, some comments dumb and some funny and some smart and more often than not some combination of the above.
3. People with too much time on their hands troll.
4. Ladies and gents (and all in between!) alike who are attempting to have educated discussion try to ignore or educate said trolls.
5. That fails, and we all LOL at trollz.
It's a fun time.
11:46 am
"regular disagreements BETWEEN feminists"
I think I have yet to see one here (okay maybe there were 2) that doesn't degenerate into:
- "You are internalizing the patriarchy" (shoutout to the Tiger Beatdown summer fights post)
- "You aren't really a feminist then"
It's what Hoss said. You either agree w/ Amanda or you've failed to grasp "the correct conclusion". Believe it or not I read this blog and don't comment on every post I read. And I consider myself a feminist (at least if you go with an inclusive definition, like one I've seen a few posters use here, "you believe in equality between sexes"). Can I be a feminist but think Jess is a dick and A's a shabby excuse for a journalist and blogger?
11:49 am
@Kristina: very good.
@Keith B: um, thanks? I want to think you're above trolldom, but then you say things like "butthurt" and "AMIRITE GIRLS" and it just undermines anything else you're trying to say. Are you trying to engage in real discussion, or are you not? As to the substance of a post - this IS a blog, and I think that fact gives its author license to do a little bit of everything. That includes seriously in-depth and thoughtful pieces of journalism, and also sometimes just weird little things that she thinks are interesting and/or might get a rise out of people (exhibit A...). If you are actually interested in feminist inclusiveness and exchanging of the ideas and things, tone/nice words/not-hating-on-feminists-just-cause goes a long way.
11:53 am
@Keith B: As to your second post...I think you need to look harder. I disagreed with Saurs and LeftSidePositive (big feminists, I assure you!) on various things probably just in the last week!
The short answer to the last question: yes. The longer answer: I guess so, yes, but one begins to wonder why you don't spend your time elsewhere if you hate this site/Amanda so much.
11:53 am
Ah, first Amanda is plain wrong, now she's just worried about things that don't even matter.
And: I BET THE MANSCIENTIST HAS A SMALL WEENER, AND CAN’T FIND THE CLIT!! AMIRITE GIRLS AMIRITE
nailed 'em. That's what feminists are worried about; male virility and their ability to fuck good.
12:00 pm
I don't hate this site. I've been reading the WCP since long, long before The Sexist started, and barring Creative Loafing / the economy / new media screwing things up worse for WCP, I hope to be reading it in the future.
LSP is cool. There's a few people who can disagree without being disagreeable, I guess Jess and I are not those folks.
12:02 pm
drsnacks, are you new to the internet?
12:02 pm
I don't think anyone is wrong. The comments are here for debate I thought? We can have different opinions....
"People with too much time on their hands troll."
There's really no trolls here anymore. Hooray new commenting policy!
12:03 pm
I meant The Sexist's site, not the paper in general. And I agree, LSP IS cool (shoutout!). That's the whole point - I'm for people who are agreeable disagreeing with other agreeable people. Agreed (see what I did there)?
12:12 pm
There’s a few people who can disagree without being disagreeable, I guess Jess and I are not those folks.
I am, actually. But I don't bother with people who aren't interested in discussion. I prefer to be known as an asshole by assholes.
Now Katie will offer you a glass of water, and I will slam your head in a drawer. (Right? Someone who watches more Law & Order than I do should help me out here.)
12:18 pm
Just for the record, I'm Black, and I've never been a member of a Black student group that didn't welcome people of other racial groups too.
--
I'm also a woman in science, and actually what upset me about this email is that it reminds me of a time when the undergrads were asking for a women-only pizza dinner in the physics department, and some of the women grad students opposed it saying that it was discrimination against the men. Now that I'm finishing grad school, I've seen a lot of that. Many of the women who decide to stick around in this bullshit atmosphere are either people who manage to bury their heads in their asses or people who are so afraid of being on the outs with the men that they will sell their sisters down the river.
Ironic that my first thought was to get mad at the women who probably agree with this guy! I should work on being mad at him first.
12:19 pm
Oh, and there's a special place in intellectual hell for the person who thinks Amanda Hess can't read.
12:20 pm
Jess, you never had any interest in a constructive reply as soon as you read my first comment. Exhibit B will be that the only other comments you've replied to (having ignored all others, from Hoss's non-troll reply, to Meg's [omg woman name] knee-jerk rant) are Katie (some "you go girl!" good/bad cop shit) or trying to troll me.
So okay, yes, you've all ignored or laughed at my trolling. Please point out some discussion here. That isn't just hand-jobbing back-patting attagirl type crap. Or: wow, Amanda was right again, there's nothing more to add and there's nothing to take out. Perfection?
12:25 pm
Dammit Chanda, way to put it back on track towards levelheaded discussion.
I get what you're saying about a group of students having a pizza lunch for women in the physics department. But I think that's a bit different than say, SWE (Society of Women Engineers) having an event and saying "men cannot attend". Like you say, all (afaik) Black student groups explicitly DON'T discriminate about their membership or their events. I'm sure SWE is the same way too, though we have no idea what the Society in question is.
12:26 pm
@Chanda - agreed on intellectual hell, AND as to the black student groups point - you're right, I actually think the BSU at my school welcomed all races as well. I just meant that should the BSU choose to say "no thanks" if I tried to join...I would get that.
@Keith B - what the fuck is wrong with agreeing with one another and/or hand jobs? Agreement (slash hand jobs!) and discussion are not mutually exclusive. OK, here is your glass of water.
12:32 pm
Can we at least agree that if nothing else, the email he got from the women's scientific society was spam?
12:35 pm
I imagine the reason BSU don't discriminate is that they were formed partly because of the extreme discrimination their members endure(d), and that the last thing they wanted was to give other people ammunition to further discrimination by saying "Look, they do it too give the chance". To me, that's the right way of thinking. And if a group of students, Black, want to get together for food and watching a game, and don't invite the Chinese kid? That's probably okay too. Right?
But going from the email we got, it's more like the BSU holding an event, sending invites to all of their members, but saying "No whiteys / asians / latinos please". And that isn't cool.
12:35 pm
Did you know that feminist nazis lynched black guys? I feel like this hasn't been discussed enough recently.
12:37 pm
@kza: bahahahahahaha. ahahahaha. that...was well-timed
12:39 pm
lol Hoss, I guess so.
12:41 pm
I will never understand why trolls come on here calling names, belittling, and being jerks, and then the conversation devolves into "FEMINISTS ARE SO MEEEAN" and "ladies, stay calm and be civil." Really?
You set the tone when you open the conversation. For me, you're below engaging when you don't come to the table wanting to discuss civilly.
12:43 pm
Sorry, it's obvious that I wasn't clear enough. The undergrad women unanimously wanted a department-sponsored women-only pizza event. This is because when men were invited to come, they often outnumbered the women AND made some of the undergrads feel like there were issues they couldn't talk about openly.
12:47 pm
Jess, you never had any interest in a constructive reply as soon as you read my first comment.
You're damn right. I've been doing this feminist-on-the-internet thing for long enough that it often only takes one antagonistic bullshit comment for me to guess that someone is in it for antagonism and bullshit. This may shock you, but sometimes women don't give you the benefit of the doubt not because they're too dumb to realize you might have good intentions, but because they're smart enough to realize you don't.
Chanda, that's a really good point about how the academic environment in STEM fields makes women turn against each other. I've been discussing this a lot with two scientist friends (one of whom is about to jump out of the pipeline, one of whom keeps climbing back in) and you're exactly right -- the need to be twice as good as everyone else to prove that you belong there also means you have to be willing to step on fellow woman scientists to pull yourself up. The problem isn't the women or the men but the skewed system -- but of course the system is buoyed by people who want to believe that it doesn't need to be examined or changed. Those are usually people who think the system works because they benefit from it (i.e. male scientists) but it can also be women who think the system works well enough because they are beating it.
1:04 pm
Right on, Jess. But realize that anyone who's done the person-on-the-internet thing for a long time easily sees you're plenty full of antagonism and bullshit too, so get off your high horse. Slamming heads in drawers is not the path to the high ground (not that you or I care about that concept).
I wish we knew more about what society it was sending the invite, and if it was a local or national type event. Chanda, did you attend a HBCU, or other school where Blacks were a large % of the student population? I think even at schools with a smaller %, no BSU would exclude anyone by race from their official events. Why is that different from a women's society? Schools, especially public ones get into this shit all the time, like the one where you had to be a straight Christian to join a certain student group. If the group dynamic isn't working for the core members (women), do it unofficially or off-campus as a private event. People can't complain about that.
1:17 pm
Shorter "pack of ignoramuses"(thanks EmilyBites):
Baaaaaw! All I have is everything! Everything but this! I didn't know it existed ten minutes ago, but now I do, and you told me I can't have it, so I want it right now! My precious fee fees trump countless centuries of discrimination against women. They do, they do, they DO!
1:27 pm
Equally as discriminatory as the dominant superstructure. You can't fight discrimination withe discrimination.
An eye for eye...
1:36 pm
I kind of want to see the initial email... What if they didn't explicitly exclude men but just spread the email around to those on a specific listserv or something? What if men were allowed to go if they so chose?
Just food for thought...
1:37 pm
This is off topic but related to something other people raised: Do HBCUs have Black student associations? (Honest question that I don't know the answer to.) It seems like it would be redundant in the same way that a white student association would be redundant at almost every school in the first world.
To answer your question about what the difference is, Keith:
If Black student associations had the problem of white people showing up and outnumbering them, I think people might rethink the openness. This is a problem that women's events that involve free food tend to have that people of color events don't have. If suddenly you're outnumbered at an event that is meant to challenge your feeling of being outnumbered, then the whole thing falls apart.
Additionally, an environment like a physics department has marked differences from a campus organization like a BSU. Potentially, the physics grads/postdocs in the room will have decision-making power over my career at some point. They might be on a hiring committee/tenure committee/admissions committee. It is not as safe to speak freely in front of people who might have direct power over your future. In a BSU, it is likely you will be dealing with people that you will know socially and can choose to have a professional relationship with but aren't tied to having a professional relationship with.
1:42 pm
Would a more dramatic picture of a power differential completely removed from any of us be more helpful? Would a medieval count be justified in being rankled by a peasant social invite that excluded all noblemen?
1:46 pm
Not to mention in a physics department that it's possible that you have a specific situation you want to discuss and the aggressor is in the room.
I could fill a book with stories about women who were afraid to speak up because the repercussions for their career were too enormous. Creating safe, private spaces with people who are allies by experience is very important. You might argue that some men might want to be allies, but it is also the case that men sometimes claim to be allies when they actually aren't. In the case of women, some of them don't want to be allies. That's fine. They generally just don't show up.
The reason you want to hold an official event, as opposed to a private one like the ones we have at the institute where I work, is because the department's endorsement sends a message about the department's attitude toward these issues. That they recognize women are having these experiences and that they support their every effort to find ways to not only challenge but also simply cope with them. That kind of messaging alone can go a long way toward challenging department culture. If the chair of the department or other people in positions of power are saying, "I endorse women having these events," you're probably going to be a lot more careful about what you say and do, realizing that you can't just get away with overt and maybe even covert sexism.
1:54 pm
Thanks, Chanda. I don't think it would be weird to have BSUs at a HBCU, from my undergrad experience there's still SHPE / SACNAS chapters at schools with high Hispanic populations. Although these are more for professional & academic purposes than a "BSU", so maybe the comparison isn't good. I'm not familiar with what similar groups exist for Black students but I'm willing to bet they, like the BSUs, do not restrict membership to only Blacks, or African Americans.
Your second point is good, but I still think (maybe being too PC here?) the only solution is to not have them directly associated with the school. Profs, postdocs of course should attend. I can't reconcile closing off one group, even if the core members face discrimination / are outnumbered, with letting another student group say "no queers at our meeting" and still be able to hold campus events. Do you see a "whites-only pizza party" working out at Howard? Discrimination is discrimination, you can do it in your clubhouse but you can't do it in your school activities.
2:11 pm
Keith, calling it discrimination is a misnomer that belies the reality of the situation and also the reason that events like this exist. This kind of stuff is there to level an imbalanced playing field. It is simply nonsensical to call methods that are used to counteract the effects of discrimination, discrimination. These kinds of things are very small spaces that are arduously carved out so that women and minorities have a chance.
And yes, SACNAS and SPHE are not a good comparison with a BSU. This is something I can talk about quite a bit -- I am on the executive board of the National Society of Black Physicists as well as a member of the advisory board of the National Society of Hispanic Physicists, which is a partner organization in the annual SACNAS conference. These organizations serve minority communities in ways that crossover with more broadly defined organizations but are not the same.
It's important to recognize that SACNAS, NSHP, NSBP, SHPE and NSBE exist partially for the purposes of interacting with and advocating within the larger majority community. That is not the purpose of a women-only dinner. The difference in these purposes is a reflection of the larger situation: members of underrepresented groups (as well as fairly represented groups who face discrimination, such as women of Asian descents in science) not only need advocacy, they also need personal emotional and professional support. Women of color in particular face challenges on this front. Even as chair of NSBP's Cosmology, Gravitation and Relativity group, I'm still pretty isolated: I'm the only girl in the group that I chair! So, joining NSBE, NSHP, NSBP, SACNAS, SPHE is not a guarantee that women will find support.
That said, minorities who do have access to these organizations are much more likely to be able to carve out an informal support network for themselves. Some of that is dependent on personality though. And I'm less concerned with the women who are fierce and able to handle the BS, the Marie Curies of the world, and much more concerned about all of the women who don't have that kind of strong personality but who could make phenomenal contributions to science if they felt safe in their working/studying environment.
*acronym key so everyone is in the loop:
SACNAS = Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in the Sciences
SPHE = Society of Professional Hispanic Engineers
NSBE = National Society of Black Engineers
NSBP = National Society of Black Physicists
NSHP = National Society of Hispanic Physicists
It should be noted that attendance at SACNAS is broad: students of various Asian descents as well as African descent are often in attendance.
2:12 pm
@Em said:
"You set the tone when you open the conversation. For me, you’re below engaging when you don’t come to the table wanting to discuss civilly."
Good point. Of course, you probably won't agree with me that Amanda Hess is the troll here.
If you read the posting by the Female Science Professor it is a long thought provoking take on the subject. The kind of article that is interesting to read and ponder. Amanda Hess reduced the FSPs response to “I wish I could say that my only experience with ‘discrimination‘ was not being invited to an event like this.” This is flame-bait.
In the same vein, I would point out that the 70 comments on her posting are far more enlightening that the ones here (including some suggestions on how to handle the situation). Of course, she did set a different tone to the conversation to start with.
2:18 pm
Chanda, your comment about being outnumbered at a meeting due to people showing up just for the food strongly reminds me of that stupid beer commercial. You know the one, where the BF is about to leave his honey with her Happy Ladies Book-Club when he notices a (tastefully arranged) container of I think BudLite on the table.
Suddenly, golf or whatever is out of the picture and BF & all the golf buddies are infiltrating the Happy Ladies Book-Club for the beer. The women try to converse with them about the book in question, but the men haven't read it or don't understand, and the "boring" book-club becomes a "fun" co-ed beer party! Everyone wins!
Except, of course, the ladies who wanted to discuss their weekly book. Or the lady scientists who wanted a chance to talk about the troubles they have getting taken seriously if they wear a blouse that clings too tight. Having a male scientist in the room for that discussion would almost certainly lead to protests of, "We're not all like that! I've never done that!" That, good scientist sir, is totally irrelevant and besides the point.
2:28 pm
Charlie, that's exactly it, and yeah, I doubt any of the yes-women here will agree.
5:38 pm
@Chanda: #59- Thanks for explaining why having the department sponsor meetings like these means so much more! I hadn't considered the difference between a private and a sponsored meeting.
@K And of course, when the male scientist at the women in science discussion proclaims, "Hey, I'm not like that!", we women are supposed to reassure him: "No, of course you're not, sweetie. You're always considerate of women and you're just the greatest supporter of women ever! Thank you for deigning to help our cause!" And once again, the conversation has turned away from the challenges that women face in the sciences back to what the one man in the room wants to talk about: his own hurt feelings!
Real life example: So, I'm a female physics graduate student talking with two of my (white and male) colleagues about how physics as a field is overwhelmingly white and male. One of the guys got defensive and said something like, "Well, I guess I'm contributing to the problem, huh?". He seemed hurt, so as usual, a conversation about women and minorities in physics went immediately back to the feelings of a white male (as if the feelings of one white man are more important than the problems facing whole groups of people!). And if I don't follow the conversation derailment, then I'm being mean to him personally. And no, he probably wasn't being intentionally dismissive; he might have legitimately had hurt feelings, but a possibly useful conversation about discrimination ended anyway, regardless of his intentions.
The easiest way for women or people of color to discuss legitimate problems they face is to exclude the privileged group sometimes. Otherwise, their voices might be drowned out.
6:46 pm
Um, you guys. Sexism is sexism, and sex segregation is sex segregation, and refusing something to one gender is still refusing something to them.
1:56 pm
"To complain of discrimination when one belongs a privileged group is nonsensical and NOT equal to a complaint of discrimation from a person of minority status on the part of a privileged group."
That's a horrible sentiment. People can be discriminated all the time, period, no matter who they are. One's not less than the other just because one is characterized as more privileged than the other.
Besides, there are many spheres of privilege. White, Rich, American. The cure for discrimination is not further discrimination.