The Sexist

De-Friendly Fire: American University student makes Facebook rape accusation

Chloe Rubenstein
Facebook ’em: Chloe Rubenstein raises an accused rapist’s profile.

On April 22, Chloe Rubenstein posted a note on her Facebook page.

“ATTENTION WOMEN,” she wrote, before identifying two American university students by name and calling them rapists. She went on: “we should all be aware! Stay away at all costs. They are predators and will show no remorse for anyone. If you have been effected by either one of these sickos please feel free to talk to me. With enough help we can take them down!”

Two months earlier, the American University sophomore and a group of her fellow students had gathered to pass the time during the snowstorm. As feet of snow blanketed the city, Rubenstein’s apartment filled with friends and one new acquaintance—a male AU student who lived in the same building. They drank cheap vodka and danced. At the end of the night, a female friend left the party and entered Rubenstein’s bedroom. Five minutes later, the new guy followed. Rubenstein noticed and followed him in.

Four years earlier, as a high school junior in Massachusetts, Rubenstein found herself alone with a classmate she barely knew, a football star she described as “100 percent muscle.” Rubenstein was 16. She didn’t tell anyone what happened for four months. Even after she moved to D.C. and entered college, she wasn’t comfortable calling the incident by its name. But when she walked into her own bedroom the night of the snowstorm, she recognized what was happening. “It was re-traumatizing for me. I was trying to wrap my head around it for a month,” says Rubenstein, now 20. “It was the same weird feeling I had had a month after I was raped.”

Weeks after the snow had melted, Rubenstein called her friend to see how she was doing. She refused to take Rubenstein’s calls, but a mutual friend informed Rubenstein that the woman was still reeling from the events of the party. “I started slowly trying to figure out what I was going to do about that,” Rubenstein says. Around the same time, another friend informed her that she had recently been raped by another AU student in an unrelated incident. Then, Rubenstein did something she couldn’t do in high school: She attempted to tell as many people as possible what happened.

Rubenstein posted the note without consulting anyone on strategy. “I just did it,” Rubenstein says. “I followed what I believed was right to do at the time.” The accusations were disseminated to 968 of her online friends. A dozen people clicked a box indicating that they “liked” the announcement.

Two female AU students sent Rubenstein private messages claiming that one of the alleged rapists had “done some really screwed-up things to them, too,” Rubenstein says. When she would see him in her building or on campus, Rubenstein says that the accused would run in the opposite direction.

Others were more confrontational. On campus, Rubenstein says that supporters of the accused started to walk “in circles around me, trying to intimidate me.” She received several anonymous phone calls at odd hours. When she picked up the phone, from a private number, a male voice repeated the phrase, “I’m a police officer and I have a few questions I need to ask you,” growing sterner with each iteration. Friends warned Rubenstein of the legal implications of making a rape accusation without absolute proof.

“You’re playing with fire when you throw people’s names out,” admits Rubenstein. “I was aware of the dangers of that. I knew it was a bold move,” she says. “But when I told people that I was fully aware of what I was doing, it made them feel a little more fearless. After that, I started getting a lot more support from people.”

It’s been a banner year for controversial rape announcements on the American University campus. Added encouragement for Rubenstein’s activism came from an unlikely source: Alex Knepper, a sophomore columnist for school newspaper the Eagle, who devoted a great deal of column inches this year to complaining about AU’s “campus of victims.” On March 28, Knepper published a column explaining how women who have been drinking can’t really be raped: “Let’s get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI [fraternity] party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy’s room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK? To cry ‘date rape’ after you sober up the next morning and regret the incident is the equivalent of pulling a gun to someone’s head and then later claiming that you didn’t ever actually intend to pull the trigger.”

On the day the column was published, an anonymous group of campus activists removed the papers from their stands, returned them to the paper’s offices, and hung posters printed with the words "NO ROOM FOR RAPE APOLOGY" around campus. Rubenstein participated in the stunt, albeit halfheartedly. “I took some of the copies and moved them around,” she says. “The article was insulting to every woman who has ever been sexually assaulted on campus. So it was an effective action in the sense that it got people to talk, but it was sort of an immature way to do it,” she says. But Knepper’s column shifted something else for Rubenstein. “I wasn’t able to comfortably talk about rape until that article came out,” she says. “Now, I can say, ‘I am a victim of rape and I’m not afraid to say it.’ But this time last year, I wasn’t saying that. This time three months ago, I wasn’t saying that.”

On April 13, two weeks after the column dropped, Rubenstein attended AU’s “Take Back the Night” rally, an annual demonstration against sexual violence. It was the first time Rubenstein openly referred to her experience in high school as a rape. A week later, she wrote her Facebook note. Rubenstein says she posted it for all the women on AU’s campus who might find themselves drunk at parties around the accused. “At first, I wasn’t thinking that this was going to help my friends. I felt like I needed to warn everyone else about these guys,” Rubenstein says. After leaving the message up for a few days, Rubenstein removed it. “I don’t clear my status because I’m scared,” she wrote on Facebook. “I clear it for legal reasons and because my message reached 968 people. If you or someone you know has been raped or sexually assaulted and needs a safe place to talk about how they feel or what can be done, please contact me. No Fear. No Secrets. 2010.”

After removing the note, Rubenstein finally heard from the woman she had followed into the bedroom. “That’s the most beautiful thing that came out of all this,” says Rubenstein. “She called me and asked me why I took my status down…She said that if the other victims decide they
want to do something, that she might want to be there to do something too,” she says. On Facebook, 968 people can be warned of potential predators in an instant; reaching actual victims of sexual assault is more difficult. “When it had happened to me in high school, I did nothing about it,” Rubenstein says. “There is not a day that goes by that I don’t think about that. I promised myself that I would do whatever I possibly could when this happened to people I know. I just didn’t expect it to happen to so many of them.”

Photo by Darrow Montgomery

Comments

  1. #1

    Hopefully those bastards never get laid again. That's a pretty brave thing of her to do.

  2. #2

    Rubenstein should hope that no one posts a note on Facebook accusing her of making false accusations, or suggesting that people should all be aware of her, stay away from her at all costs because she is a predator and will show no remorse for anyone, or suggest that if you has been effected by such a sicko to feel free to talk whoever posted the note in order to help take her down.

    Instead of making a public, unsubstantiated accusation against two students, Rubenstein should have reported the men to the police or campus authorities. That way she could not be held liable for publicly defaming them. Since she has made this public, I would suggest she go to the police if she has not already, otherwise it raises very serious questions about her actions and their intent.

  3. #3

    This was really interesting. I've thought on and off about doing something similar to expose the person who assaulted one of my friends, but it's a scary proposition ... especially if the person in question has $$ and has shown no qualms about threatening people with bullshit lawsuits in the past. There just has to be a way to spread awareness about the perpetrators of assaults that never make it into the criminal justice system!

  4. #4

    Toysoldier, I agree that the authorities should have been involved from the start. But posting a note on FB, that's not really much different from telling all your friends (and them telling all their friends) that XYZ is a rapist, is it really? And maybe add shouting it out the window and down the hall for some strangers to hear.

    Obviously if the person doing the yelling/posting is lying, yeah, innocent people will get their lives ruined. But people could do this the old fashioned way anyhow. And at least Rubenstein's posting about an event she knows happened and pretty much witnessed. The victim even confirmed it to her. If she uses her fame/notoriety to make a habit of spewing out false accusations, no one is going to believe her after a bit.

    And hey, no one's stopping the perps from giving their sides of the story, in FB or to Rubenstein directly. Late night phone calls impersonating cops? Yeah, that's the way to clear your name.

  5. LeftSidePositive
    #5

    I just love Toysoldier's whining about his own marginalization and then his eager adoption of rape apologism wherever women are concerned. Toysoldier, do you know how hard it is to get police to take a rape accusation seriously? Do you know that a significant number of rapists are repeat offenders? Are you not aware that even when sexual assaults do get reported on campus, universities usually don't publish a perpetrator's name like they do for other crimes?

  6. #6

    Its vigilanteism isnt it? I think the police should deal with these things, I do see it becoming common, problem is that this method of punishment is all too easy for the false accuser to use so it could end up meaningless.

  7. #7

    Mostly, I just wanted to say that this is a fantastic piece Amanda.

    On the argument brewing in comments, I agree that its not really different than just telling people.

  8. #8

    I have a friend who was raped before the age of Facebook, and she responded similarly. She knew what women who make rape accusations go through in the legal system. Furthermore this guy was a friend of hers, staying the night in the house that she shared with three other people, and simply slipped into her bedroom, where she was sleeping, one night after a party. So all the factors that typically call into question a rape victim's testimony were present: he was an acquaintance whom she had welcomed into her home, and there was alcohol involved.

    So she simply decided to tell everybody what happened. She didn't hide it. She emailed everyone she knew. Furthermore she told the rapist she was going to do this. She explained she had no interest in pressing charges--what she was interested in was having him face up to what he had done and to own up to it within their shared social circle. Which he did. It was kind of amazing.

    I don't think he'll be raping any other women after this experience--rape culture allows for this kind of behaviour to be rationalized in such a way that otherwise 'nice' guys can talk themselves into the belief that their actions don't constitute sexual assault. My friend didn't allow him that luxury for one minute.

  9. #9

    Toysoldier,

    According to her account, she witnessed one of the incidents. So it's fair to say that that incident was substantiated.

    Rape is fairly epidemic on college campuses. By and large, university officials don't take it seriously. Pew did a study about a decade ago indicating that almost half of American women are raped during their lifetime. Something has to be done. I applaud this woman for her audacity.

  10. LeftSidePositive
    #10

    Eo is lovin' the big words--"draconian" and "vigilanteism"....uh, oooooooooooh, wow!

    Eo, you fucking idiot, learn the fucking meaning of the fucking words you use. This is not "vigilanteism." She did not slash their tires, gather a mob, or threaten or enact any type of physical violence. She STATED WHAT HAPPENED and told people to stay away from them and encouraged other victims to come forward. That is a positive, pro-social approach that supports others and calls for accountability in a strictly ethical way. There is nothing wrong with that, so shut the fuck up with your ridiculous fantasies of violence and tarring people with your half-baked ahistorical crackpot rants.

  11. #11

    *Slow clap for LeftSidePositive*

    Did anyone read the book "Cunt" by Inga Muscio? She suggested getting a mob of women to pelt rapists with used tampons. That is a vigilante response. Reporting events and warning others is not. And if it's true, it's not defamation either. (Remember, in a civil suit the burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.)

  12. #12

    @Keith B: Facebook is much more public than telling a handful of friends. I do not anyone with 968 friends, do you? It is akin to posting something on YouTube. Everyone will know. If a person is innocent, this cannot be undone, and can result in very serious reprisals, including violence. If a person is guilty, that person's attorney can use the act to demonstrate the accuser is lying, especially when the accuser retracts the statement after getting the support she wanted.

    We only have Rubenstein's word that the events happened, and in situations like this I refrain from forming an opinion about the claims. If these men are rapists, she should file a police report so the men will be arrested and prevented from assaulting others.

    @LeftSidePositive: Verbal assaults count as acts of vigilantism. The note is not ethical because it does not provide the accused with a means of defending themselves. Instead, it uses public shaming and reprisals to compel a person to admit to something whether or not that thing actually occurred. That counts as vigilantism, which is why police do not want victims tricking or coercing abusers into confessions as it could hurt any potential prosecution.

  13. #13

    I admire her for what she did.

  14. #14
  15. #15

    Well I see it as a foom of vigilanteism albit non violent.

    This " pro-social approach that supports others and calls for accountability in a strictly ethical way" doesnt call for accountability and is not ethical at all because there is no due process and anyone can say anything about anyone.

    Given the following -

    one town study, two campus studies, one airforce study have shown around a 50% false reporting rate
    the FBI have reported 25% of the dna tested doent match the accused
    there is lynch mob mentality of those obsessed with the crime when its male on female
    false accusations destroy lives
    false accusations damage rape victims

    its perhaps better if a trend of facebook, bebo and twitter namings and shamings didnt start.

  16. LeftSidePositive
    #16

    Hey, Toysoldier, you know what else "can't be undone"? A FUCKING RAPE.

    You know what else doesn't provide someone with "a means of defending themselves?" A FUCKING RAPE.

    And I'm pretty sure in this day and age that these guys have Facebook pages, and could post something to defend themselves if they wished.

    Telling the world that someone hurt you or others is not "verbal assault." It is sharing your story and experiences and bearing witness to your own life. It is warning others of very real and imminent danger, and encouraging people to come together--not for revenge on others--but for their own safety.

    Oh, by the way, I was feeling helpful so I edited a statement in your post for you:

    "If these men are rapists, she should file a police report so the victims can submit to a humiliating medical examination which may not even be processed or shipped out of a state warehouse somewhere, if the police even allow them to obtain one in the first place, and then the police can berate the victims about their personal choices and habits and condescendingly tell them that there's nothing wrong but the victims 'own poor judgement' or something like that and then the police will throw out the case without making an arrest and the perpetrator will be free to continue assaulting others with impunity."

    There. I'm sure that's what you actually meant.

  17. #17

    *second slow clap for LeftSidePositive*

    That. All the time.

  18. #18

    I can understand this woman's need to do something. Going to the police doesn't prove effective. Many peers and classmates will victim blame. Even complete strangers will victim blame, as if they have the right. She knows what the victims were going through, because she went through it when she was younger. Perhaps she was wishing someone had done this thing for her when she was raped. She put her courage and strength out there for others to use because their's were stolen in the rape. She shone a light into the dark corners of this educational institution so that others would see and be aware. As a student there, she took the right to demand safety for all she could reach. Some might argue that the accused deserve a fair trial. I argue that a rape victim deserves a fair trial, but rarely do they get it. Previous methods are not working to end sexual violence. Someone somewhere has to try something new.

  19. #19

    "...At the end of the night, a female friend left the party and entered Rubenstein’s bedroom. Five minutes later, the new guy followed. Rubenstein noticed and followed him in."

    What did Rubenstein do after she followed him into the room? The friend was obviously raped, but it seems unclear what exactly happened?

  20. #20

    I know jules also, instead of saying that they threw a party it was implied that the snow instigated it. There is something a little amiss.

  21. #21

    Why in the world should she say exactly what happened? This is not fodder for the tell-all. This is a serious matter. If you have half a brain, you can infer the gist of what happened. She would probably rather not detail the information of an event that indirectly involves her and are not her details to spill. She gave the warning, sure, but that's something that she has a right to. Not this woman's personal experience.

  22. #22

    what about the alcohol? most of these stories on the citypaper involve one or more drunk participants. that doesn't excuse anyone from being responsible for their actions but there is WAAAY too much drinking in college life and that level of drinking contributes to aggression: fighting and raping. Deciding how best to respond to rape after it happens is one thing but one of the root causes (just one) that should also be addressed is drinking. Anyone that feels that drunkenness is just an acceptable rite of passage for college students is turning a blind eye to a real contributing factor to these rapes..

  23. #23

    That the immediate response of a few commenters here is to cry "false accusation" over a woman's eyewitness account of a crime just proves that the process of conviction might just be a big, time-wasting hassle.

    One question: if, say, this woman saw her friend getting punched and kicked by a guy until she gave him her wallet and jewelry, would anyone be doubting that this woman witnessed a mugging?

  24. #24

    Regardless of alcohol consumption, the offender knows what he or she is doing. Afterwards, in the majority of cases, they are all aware that the victim was attempting to get away or even vehemently saying no. A lot of rapes happen due to a disregard of those cues, from an issue with social interactions or just blatant disregard of another person's free will. While alcohol consumption lowers impulse control, it is not a hugely contributing factor as many victim blamers tend to purport. (I am not saying scott is a victim blamer, necessarily, as I cannot glean that from his comment and will not assume until I know for sure. Benefit of the doubt and all.)

  25. #25

    scott, I went to a rowdy state school. I got drunk. Many times. I did stupid things, like skateboarding down a parking garage when I can't skateboard. I puked once or twice. I've had hangovers so bad I couldn't get out of bed until sunset.

    But I also studied hard, got good grades and am now in grad school on a full fellowship. And, more importantly, I never raped anyone. I never even thought about raping anyone. Not even in my drunkest, sloppiest state. People drink, and rapists commit crimes of aggression. The two are not related events. Ever.

  26. #26

    Rape victims should go to the cops even if they don't think they can guy the guy arrested.

  27. #27

    Liz, I'm not convinced that your experience is strong enough to disallow that alcohol can contribute to risky, inappropriate, illegal and immoral behavior in people, especially very young, very drunk people. In you own post you admit to doing 'stupid' things although you take pains to say you stopped short of rape. Not everyone maintains the control you claim. There must be a relation, at least some times. "Not related events. Ever" is strictly your experience. You're not discriminating between serial/compulsive rapists and other rapists. Lumping everyone together is not a constructive way to approach any problem.

  28. #28

    Liz wrote: "People drink, and rapists commit crimes of aggression. The two are not related events. Ever."

    lol what

  29. #29

    I don't deny that a rape occurred. Nor can I say for sure that a rape occurred. All we have is an accusation by some people who don't feel the need to go to the police with the accusation.

    But I have to agree with jules that the details are rather sketchy in the accusation. Whenever someone makes an accusation of rape, and then others start asking questions about what exactly happened, then further accusations of "blaming the victim" follow. And that is used as an excuse for not going to the police, because they will drill you to determine whether you have a credible accusation.

    The details of this accusation are incredibly sketchy. So Rubenstein walked into her bedroom and "recognized what was happening." What does that mean? We're supposed to infer that she saw a rape occurring. So what did she do after that? Did she just decide to turn around and let it occur? Did she go in and and try to help her friend fight the guy off? Or was the guy also "100% muscle" and clearly having the ability to fight them both off? Had everyone else already left the party?

    If one is going to make an accusation as serious as rape, I see nothing wrong with demanding that you say exactly what happened to the police. It's an easy way to separate those who are truly victims from those who are making false accusations. Otherwise, all I see here is he said/she said.

  30. #30

    @kza just curious: why do you say that?

  31. #31

    Now I'm not so sure. Toysoldier does hit on a good point about posting anything on the internet--that it's there forever. Embarrassing cell phone cam noodz, emo blog posts / poetry, and accusations of crime, substantiated or not.

    If they were false, that could really fuck someone's life up forever. When some potential employer googles your name, finds a bunch of things saying you're a rapist, you probably won't get a chance to tell them "wait, can I link to my lj where I post a comprehensive defense to this slander". The more I think about it, it is pretty different from just telling lots of people, and them telling their friends. You can't google old fashioned gossip, and it doesn't wind up on archive.org . This alone makes this a very powerful, and dangerous thing to do.

    (bla bla bla I'm not defending the rapists, since we're sure they did it they prob deserve to get their names fucked up on the internet forever)

  32. #32

    If every victim of rape went to the cops eventually they would have to start taking them seriously.

  33. #33

    Chiming in on the alcohol debate:
    Either you're a rapist or you're not. Alcohol doesn't magically turn you into one. It lowers inhibitions, but it doesn't make you do things against your will.

  34. #34

    scott, I just have one question, and I'm really not trying to be snarky. If someone raped you and later said "Sorry about that, but I was drunk so I couldn't help myself," would you still be upset? Would you forgive him/her? Would you honestly be able to accept his/her comment at face value and blame the alcohol as the only perpetrator, or would you still be upset at that person for his/her unwanted assault against your body?

    I only used my personal experiences as a jumping-off point for a conversation. I didn't "stop short at rape" as if I did all types of violent things to people but managed to keep myself from turning that violence into sexual violence. With the skateboarding example, I only hurt myself, and bruises heal. I was trying to explain that rapists have a predisposition to violence that already exists, and alcohol doesn't just make that appear out of nowhere.

  35. #35

    @kza: I wish I could believe that.

    @Dorothy: agreed, though maybe with the caveat that alcohol allows rapists to THINK that what they're doing isn't rape, or excuse their actions, if that makes sense. a rapist is a rapist, but alcohol changes the perception.

  36. #36

    @LeftSidePositive: If I understand you correctly, female rape victims should not file police reports? They should not notify the people who can legally imprison the rapist? They should not inform those who can prosecute the rapist? That is your message to rape victims? Do not tell the police?

    I suppose my disconnect is with Rubenstein's intent. If she wanted to protect other women, reporting the men to the police would do that. Claiming they are rapists does not.

    @Kristina: Inference is the problem. One can infer a host of things that did not happen based on limited information. Had Rubenstein not mentioned names, I would agree that she could remain vague. However, after giving the man's name, it is reasonable to ask her more details. Otherwise, we allow her to accuse someone of a crime while refusing to provide details and proof.

  37. #37

    Hi Liz, My point was pretty simple: alcohol is a contributing factor. People simply do stuff they wouldn't do if they were sober. I already pointed out that it doesn't mean they're not responsible. You're extending my intent a little bit to make it as though I'm blaming alcohol entirely. I remain convinced that there would be fewer assaults at parties if people weren't rip-roarting wasted.

  38. #38

    I would encourage everyone here who hasn't already to read this really great article that talks about how rapists use alchohol as a tool to commit sexual assault: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

    Also, I don't know that I think posting accusations on facebook is the way to go. There is a reason we have a legal system instead of putting people in the stocks in the village square based on accusations. The fact that this is the kind of thing women are resorting to makes me wish that people in charge of legal systems and campus disciplinary boards would take a second or third or forth look at their policies and try to make themm more friendly to the victims.

  39. #39

    Hey everybody: Posting a note on Facebook does not mean that the victims in these cases didn't report these assaults to school or police, or that they won't in the future. Assume, ass, you, me, etc.

  40. #40

    @ katie

    When does inaction ever produce change? Civil rights movements, woman's suffrage, our countries independence etc, speaking up is the only way to be heard. I like the Facebook thing to get the message out there but public shaming isn't enough, rapists have to be prosecuted.

  41. #41

    Toysoldier,

    Facebook IS much more public than telling a handful of friends but it also has the advantage of controlling the flow of information and hopefully cuts down on the game of "telephone."

    While I don't personally know anyone with 968 friends IRL, I DO know plenty of college students with over 1000 FB friends. As to your assertion that this is akin to posting something on YouTube I disagree. YouTube is open to anybody and EVERYBODY. The only people who received this message were the 968 people on her friend list that ALSO had her set to receive status updates (I personally block plenty of people from my feed). While almost 1000 people is a large number, it's nowhere near the MILLIONS that visit YouTube. As to your statement that, "Everyone will know"... I'm pretty sure that was the point.

    I'm not totally sure how I feel about this method of dealing with sexual assault. On one hand I want to have some faith in the judicial system to punish the offenders. But reality says otherwise. If the judicial system and the university processes routinely FAIL women, why shouldn't other women still be warned? If we've learned anything from Lisak's work it's that the men doing the majority of the raping are REPEAT offenders. They are REPEAT offenders because they keep getting away with it. They get away with it be the judicial and university processes are clouded in secrecy and blame victims. F*** that! This is why I tell all of my students to go the ER instead of campus police. I think women DESERVE to know who the rapists are and I would think that men who aren't rapists would want those men outed as well.

    I agree with Liz that the immediate outcry about "false accusations" is just sad and really reflective of society as a whole. Once the VICTIM CONFIRMED IT why are these statements still being made? While I agree that there ARE situations of false allegations of rape I don't get the impression this is one of them. And if people are suggesting that NOBODY should post information like this on their FB just because SOME person might use it to spread false allegations... well you're engaging in some REALLY faulty and illogical reasoning. Think about it for a minute...

    The ONLY people who have something to lose in a situation like this are the people raping. Straight up. The biggest "losers" here are those two men who have probably gotten away with behaviors like this in the past and would have continued to do so until their "hunting grounds" were taken away... like they just were. What did they REALLY lose? Nobody pressed charges. Nobody is going to jail. Nobody called them before a university disciplinary board. Nobody is suing. Oh... I get it... they were OUTED. Their reputations may suffer. Oh darn... the poor rapists might lose some social points.

    Call me crazy, but I think the people who fear actions like this the most are the men who are date rapists, or, if you prefer, "gray area" rapists and don't like the idea that a woman could do something about it besides get f***** by the system. Some advice... DON'T RAPE.

  42. #42

    People wouldn't be crying false accusation if they actually saw people getting prosecuted for rape.

  43. #43

    I admire her courage. I'm open about my rape, and about who did it, and I told everyone that knew the both of us about it. The good thing to come out of that was that two other girls told me that he did the same thing to him. And whenever someone asked about him, everyone told her that he was a rapist and to say away. I don't know that I could have done it on Facebook.

    At the same time, all those saying that she should have gone to campus police or the actual police, how many articles have you read here about how campus police won't release names of accused rapists? About how filing police reports so often fails, especially because it's often he said/she said. That's what mine would have been, because it was someone I had known and dated, and therefore I didn't report.

    Someone told me once that if he rapes someone else, it's my fault for not reporting the rape to the police. And that's bullshit. I had my reasons for not reporting, and when I read all the negative experiences that people that *do* report have, it makes me stand by that decision even more. But just because I didn't report it, doesn't mean I stayed silent about it. I told everyone that I could.

    I don't know that her Facebook note was the smartest or safest move, but it was certainly brave, and I commend her for it.

  44. #44

    If you're the victim of any violent crime I think you have some responsibility to report it to the police to prevent it from happening to others. Not everyone you tell is going to hear about it.

  45. LeftSidePositive
    #45

    Toysoldier, that's a ridiculous willful misrepresentation of my words and you ought to be ashamed of your weasely intellectual dishonesty.

    My comments were directly in response to YOUR claims that she SHOULD NOT have made her knowledge public, and your absurd claim that going to the police is easy and gets results. We both know that's bullshit. You're playing on the classic rape apologist tactic that "well, until he's been convicted I don't have to take this seriously," and "if it were real she totally would have gone to the police," and "if it didn't get a conviction it wasn't a rape anyway," all the other nonsense variations of passing the buck when it comes to sexual assault.

    Of course victims should ideally go to the police, and of course they should try to seek justice. No one here is doubting that. BUT that is very difficult for many survivors to do, and puts a lot of demands on them, and people like you want to put all the responsibility for future rape prevention on people who are already suffering and who will in all likelihood be re-traumatized by pursuing legal action. In fact, it is ALL of our responsibility to take rape accusations seriously, and to give survivors avenues of recourse when the legal system has failed or is failing them. Nothing I said could be construed by any intelligent person as advising against going to the police--it specifically addressed the need among all of society to recognize hardship that it entails and not to be so willfully ignorant by stating that going to the police is easy and effective, much less sufficient to address the social modus operandi of undetected rapists.

  46. #46

    @Toysoldier

    I suppose my disconnect is with Rubenstein’s intent. If she wanted to protect other women, reporting the men to the police would do that. Claiming they are rapists does not.

    That is a ridiculously illogical statement. When rape is reported, there is only a 16.3% chance that the rapist will end up in prison. If women are told that these men are predators, they'll be able to steer clear of them.

    BTW, false accusations are more often made about car theft than about rape.

    I don't know why everyone is confusing a warning posted on facebook with with vigilanteeism, or an unfair trial, or some kind of subversion of justice. Due process is a right that is owed to people by the state. Individual victims don't owe their rapists anything. People are allowed to talk about their life experiences.

  47. LeftSidePositive
    #47

    kza, wouldn't it be more fair and accurate to say we ALL of us as a society have a responsibility to make sure that going to the police is feasible, non-threatening, and effective, before we go around heaping on the responsibility for rape prevention on rape victims? Haven't they been through enough already? I mean, seriously--they didn't sign up for this. Isn't it kind of twisted to declare that they, after being humiliated and attacked, aren't good enough unless they go through additional turmoil largely for the benefit of others? Naturally, I have the utmost respect for those who do fight for justice, but isn't it our collective obligation to "prevent it from happening to others"? Isn't it our collective obligation to support victims of sexual assault and help them be part of the solution?

  48. #48

    I hope that she and/or the victims went to the police. Even if a single report doesn't prompt action, it helps to create a record if there are multiple complaints about the same person. Plus, although it's true that sometimes the police won't do anything, sometimes they will.

    I'm fine with her posting it on her FB page--if I knew that some guy had raped someone, I would be telling people about it. I would want to warn my friends and classmates. I suppose it's possible that she's just making it up, but given that the victim confirmed it, I don't find it likely. And if the guy wants to sue her for defamation, he surely can. My only caution would be that broadcasting second-hand stuff is a bad idea. You could have heard the story wrong, or the person who told you might have heard it wrong, or you might not have all the information, and I wouldn't post something in a forum like that unless I knew for sure that it was true. But if she witnessed the assault, then I don't see any problem with sharing that information in that format as opposed to any other.

    It makes me think of a John Irving (I think) story in which a girl posts flyers all over campus stating (truthfully) that her ex-boyfriend has the clap. If anyone can recall the name of that story, please let me know.

  49. #49

    'I mean, seriously–they didn’t sign up for this. Isn’t it kind of twisted to declare that they, after being humiliated and attacked, aren’t good enough unless they go through additional turmoil largely for the benefit of others?"

    Yes. If no one reported crimes do you think the crime rate would stay down? Uh no, it would go through the roof.

  50. #50

    @leftsidepostive - had a discussion with my counselor today in regards to my own experience which came to the same conclusion. as he said, i cannot be the one solely responsible to make sure my rapist doesn't rape.

    furthermore, cases of date rape, or acquaintance rape (or whatever euphemism you're going to use) aren't going to be the court cases that bring this problem to the forefront, because they are largely impossible to prove in court.

  51. #51

    raped you once, shame on them. rape you twice, shame on you.

  52. #52

    @kza, I don't think you have a responsibility. In my case, I was intoxicated and the sex started out consensual. It was someone I had dated. What case did I have? If I reported it, it was he said/she said, and I would be made to look like a slut and whore. I was drunk. I was asking for it. I'd already said yes. My situation was perfect for every victim-blaming scenario there is. Reporting it would have resulted in my case being thrown out, and would have made me even more depressed that I'd tried and failed to do something about it. And if you think that I don't know that because I didn't even try, you're just not being unrealistic.

    It's not MY responsibility if he rapes someone else. It's HIS because he's a rapist. And telling me that it's my responsibility is just another form of victim-blaming.

  53. #53

    @kza: in no way was I advocating inaction, I was just saying that I'm not sure a 100% police report rate of rape victims would be enough for rape to be "taken seriously" - you've been around this blog enough to see the kind of comments that are jumping to my mind here. And furthermore, while I do think it's important that rape victims are able to report their rapes safely and comfortably, I don't necessarily think that's often the case. Of course society benefits in general when citizens report crimes. But so long as reporting one's rape subjects one to harrassment, shaming, public scrutiny, and intense emotional hardship, I don't think it's up to you and me to decide whether or not a rape victim should share his/her personal trauma with the police.

  54. #54

    Fantastic article! Brave woman! BRAVO

  55. #55

    Chloe Rubenstein, I admire you and your courage.

  56. #56

    @ katie

    My theory is that increased reporting will lead to increased prosecution which will lead to less people not taking it seriously. Also, police are more likely to direct their efforts to prevalent crimes. I believe only reported crimes are used in the uniform crime report.

    @britni

    "It’s not MY responsibility if he rapes someone else. It’s HIS because he’s a rapist. And telling me that it’s my responsibility is just another form of victim-blaming."

    Telling the police you were raped happens after the crime occurred obviously so I don't see how you can say I'm victim blaming...it has no impact on the crime at all.

    "Reporting it would have resulted in my case being thrown out, and would have made me even more depressed that I’d tried and failed to do something about it. And if you think that I don’t know that because I didn’t even try, you’re just not being unrealistic."

    It's not the same scenario, but in the prison rape that was recently posted one of the victims talked about how she didn't think that anything would come of her reporting the assaults. The same guard that was assaulting her did it to many more women after her. It's not at all fair since she didn't asked to be raped but wouldn't stopping others from going through what you went through make you feel better at all?

  57. AmericaninJapan
    #57

    I have yet to report my own rape because it took me days to get out of shock and realize I had been raped, so it was far too late for a rape kit once I realized.

    It also happened abroad in Japan where the police are even MORE insensitive to rape victims than they are in the US (and that's saying something) and I had a fellow foreigner perpetrator, and in Japan, foreigner on foreigner crime is given a pass and rarely prosecuted.

    I'm trying to work up the courage to tell the people that know him that I know, but its emotionally trying.

  58. #58

    @kza, It's victim-blaming by saying that if a rape victim doesn't report the rape, then she's responsible if someone else is raped by the same man. You're blaming the (hypothetically) first victim for the second victim's rape.

    And reporting the crime wouldn't necessarily stop others from going through what I went through. Because, as you should know, the way rape victims are treated and rape cases are handled often results in no action, and rarely results in any sort of punishment for the perpetrator. I had no case except my word. The chances of me being able to take my rapist to court and have him prosecuted were virtually non-existant. So me reporting it would not have necessarily prevented anything.

    Also, everyone deals with their trauma differently. For me, it was best not to report. And judging someone for how they handle the aftermath of their trauma isn't fair. What's right for one person isn't right for another. And like I said, if he victimizes someone else, that's on him, not on me.

  59. #59

    Halfway through comments, had to make a statement of my own. Watching the event apparently was, itself traumatic for her. Ever watched a violent event and froze, unable to act? Well, I have. It happens. She didn't know -what- to do.

    She didn't unfreeze about the thing for a month. The victim did what most victims of rape do. She hid it. Remained silent. Had she gone to the police immediately, justice -might- have been served. Though considering the circumstances, quite possibly not. Had she had the courage and conviction to, going would have been good though, just for the chance, and just to help send the message. But it is her choice as to whether to go through the hell that bringing such charges entails. Not Rubenstein's.

    -Her- going to the police would have been hugely unethical. Because she would have robbed the victim of her choice as to whether to be revictimized by the criminal justice system in the name of uncertain justice.

    So Rubenstein did not really have the option to bring it to the police. She could remain silent, or she could do something novel. She chose this. By the time she unfroze the chance of conviction, from such a solitary instance, was approximately 0, all proof was gone it was her word against the rapists. So she sent her message. To warn others. And to try to reach out and find other possible victims.

    Her action has power. Yes, such power is possible to abuse. But speaking is her -right-. And if she isn't lying, then her actions were right. From a position of terror and powerlessness, she stood up and took powerful action. And now there is a chance that others will come forward, and they can bring forward such a mountain of evidence and accusations that the perpetrators cannot hide behind victim-blaming.

    This action isn't vigilante. But considering the ineffectiveness of the justice system in the case of rape, actual vigilante action doesn't seem like a bad idea.

  60. #60

    "Because, as you should know, the way rape victims are treated and rape cases are handled often results in no action, and rarely results in any sort of punishment for the perpetrator."

    Do you really expect the general population, which I don't think as a whole is very bright, is going to take a crime seriously that the victim didn't even think enough to report? Not everyone understands rape. The squeaky wheels get the grease.

    "It’s victim-blaming by saying that if a rape victim doesn’t report the rape, then she’s responsible if someone else is raped by the same man. You’re blaming the (hypothetically) first victim for the second victim’s rape."

    Maybe I used the wrong word with responsibility. I just don't see why you wouldn't want to try and prevent something that you know first hand is horrible.

  61. #61

    There is no excuse for any assault. Rape has no excuse by drunken afterthought.
    The predatory scum need fixing like any mad dog.

    I was raised in the rural Northeastern area and rapists were lucky to make it to jail.

    I endorse the laws and feel the police have the ability to protect us from scum if
    properly forewarned. Naming the names and alerting others is a public service.

  62. #62

    @LeftSidePositive: I never claimed that going to the police was easy. I stated that it is the best way to protect other women from being raped. You gave a litany of uncommon examples to justify why a female rape victim should do as Rubenstein did rather than go to the police. If you do not want your statements misconstrued, perhaps you should choose your words more wisely.

    @MissaA: Rape cases do not result in conviction for a number of reasons, mostly due to testimony and evidence presented or lack there of. According to the FBI, there are more unfounded rape claims than any other crime. All rights are issued by the state, and they include the right to protection against liable statements. If you disagree, then technically anyone could claim you are a rapist or pedophile, post that online, and it would be fair because that person is talking about their life experience.

    @squirrely girl: There have been plenty of instances in the last year of posts and pages on Facebook going viral. More so, if the intent was for everyone to know your argument is moot. The way to out rapists is to report them to the police. Doing otherwise causes a situation in which innocent people will be falsely accused and actual victims will make statements that could be used to challenge their credibility.

    @kza: Speaking from personal experience, I did not report my family members out of fear my brothers and cousins would get hurt. At present, I will not report it without their participation and because I do not want any of the threats we received to happen. Other people in my situation may make similar decisions.

  63. #63

    @ Kza "I just don’t see why you wouldn’t want to try and prevent something that you know first hand is horrible."
    Because you are traumatized. People do not act in a way that others consider normal when they have been traumatized. This is why the actions and words of first responders are so important. Victims need help from their friends, family, partners, community, and community officials in order to take a stand and tell others they have been assaulted. I understand your point of view here, but I also understand the point of view of the victim.

  64. LeftSidePositive
    #64

    Toysoldier, let's check your words, shall we?

    "If these men are rapists, she should file a police report so the men will be arrested and prevented from assaulting others." (emphasis mine)

    So, yes you fucking DID say that it was easy to get results by going to the police. And, who the fuck are you to say that these examples are "uncommon"? As of 2004, there were 400,000 untested rape kits nationwide.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/21/AR2008072102359.html

    400,000 is not uncommon. Not at all.

    Furthermore, you have still failed to understand that with the very low stats of getting a conviction, coupled with universities' reluctance to name alleged perpetrator's names, that Rubenstein's actions probably did more to alert others and encourage public safety than an untested rape kit sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

  65. LeftSidePositive
    #65

    Another key point, a rape case being "unfounded" does not actually mean the claim was false--"unfounding" just means that the investigation did not see fit to pursue the case, and this power can be frequently abused, as follows:

    The issue is further complicated by the fact that departments often use unfounding to close cases for reasons other than the determination that they are false or baseless. In practice therefore, "unfounded rape can and does mean many things, with false allegation being only one of them, and sometimes the least of them." Other factors commonly used as a basis for improperly unfounding a case include:
    • The police are unable to locate the victim.
    • The victim decides not to follow through with prosecution.
    • The victim repeatedly changes the account of the rape.
    • The victim recants.
    • No assailant can be identified.
    In none of these situations is it assumed that the sexual assault did not occur, yet these cases are often improperly unfounded because they need to be administratively closed - and many departments inappropriately use unfounding rather than inactivating to do so. There are also a variety of other situations that impede or prevent completion of the investigation and in which cases are often improperly classified as "unfounded".
    • Unfortunately, cases are sometimes seen as unfounded when the victim "changes her story" by recalling additional information, telling different aspects of the same story, or making inconsistent statements out of trauma and cognitive disorganization.
    • Cases are also viewed as false when the victim recants, either out of fear or when she realizes the impact that the investigation and prosecution will have on her life.
    Thus, there are clearly a number of situations in which sexual assault cases are improperly unfounded when they have not been determined to be false.

    I encourage you to read the whole thing, at:

    http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/acquaintsa/participant/allegations.pdf

  66. #66

    Not reporting the rape is ridiculous. You ASSUME nothing will be done. You ASSUME but you don't know because you didn't even try to report it (@ Britni Vadge Wig)

    You were drunk, it started out consensual but apparently it didn't end that way. I am sorry you went through that, truly I am. Violent crimes are hard.

    Not reporting doesn't help. Not reporting it and not making the perpetrator have to deal with some kind of police bullshit, even if it results in nothing, is ridiculous. Not reporting it is just letting him walk away free with not even a slap on the wrist.

    It is NOT anyone's fault if a rapist rapes again except for the rapist him or her self. I am not victim blaming so don't even try to accuse me of that.. The only person responsible for their despicable actions are that person.

    My simple point, not reporting it doesn't help. More people need to stand up and come forward. It is hard, I know, I'm a victim of a violent crime. It is hard to be able to come forward and be so open and vulnerable about something that has hurt and emotionally scarred you to a point that it effects how you think and feel on a daily basis. It is tough but not going to the police doesn't help. They may throw it out but keep trying. It's worth it if you can get one person to listen to you.

  67. #67

    Applause for Rubinstein.

  68. #68

    So how do you suggest we stop rape without involving the police?

  69. #69

    @kza
    If you disagree, then technically anyone could claim you are a rapist or pedophile, post that online, and it would be fair because that person is talking about their life experience.

    Umm... no...

    How do you equate "talking about life experience" with lying? The point was we shouldn't all jump to criticize a woman for doing something so simple as telling the truth about what happened to her.

    I find it odd that so many people's reactions are worrying about what kind of legal action she took. What happened to respecting a woman's ability to decide the wisest course of action for herself. We don't know all the factors that went into her decision - we don't even know what that decision was. She might have gone to the police, or encouraged the victims too. Personally, I find it irrelevant to the story.

    The important thing is that she's talking about rape. She's naming the problem. She's warning others. She's helping to make predatory behaviour socially unacceptable.

    Law enforcement is not the only way that we control people's behaviour, and is likely not even the most important or effective one. A huge problem is that the public does not take rape seriously, they accuse and ostaracize the victims instead of the perpetrators. The FB message was in part a declaration that rape victims are to be believed and supported, and that rapists should not be excused and accepted by their peer groups.

  70. #70

    Sorry, that should be directed at Toysoldier.

  71. #71

    @MissaA: Umm… yes... One cannot prove or disprove the claim. So if someone makes a claim against you, you lack any recourse. That is the problem. The reasons for Rubenstein’s decision do not matter. People are entitled to due process. One can raise public awareness without subverting that. Despite law enforcements problems, especially with addressing sexual violence against males, the police remain the most important and effective means of addressing predatory individuals. Yes, unfortunately some people do not believe actual rape victims just as some people believe false accusers. That does not entitle us to subvert law, reason, and ethics just to feel empowered.

    @ LeftSidePositive: Your lack of basic English grammar is most impressive. Using future tense does not imply an easy act. I read the paper you linked years ago and found it unconvincing due to inconsistent data and unsubstantiated conclusions, which mirrors my opinion of papers citing high rates of false accusations. No accurate data has been gathered, so anything presented beyond police reports is pure speculation.

  72. AmericaninJapan
    #72

    @Shelly:
    http://japanfocus.org/-David-McNeill/3083

    Read THAT and tell me if you think that I or whoever else on this thread are a horrible person for not reporting my rape. They made this Aussie woman REENACT part of her rape.

    That's an extreme example but that's what you can expect when you report a rape. To not be believed, to be asked questions about your appearance, your lifestyle, to be humiliated and if you were unfortunate enough not to have witnesses or if you're literally so in shock that the word "rape" does not enter your mind for days, then you can expect that unless if maybe you're a religious virgin girl you have an extremely low chance of getting your rapist behind bars.

  73. LeftSidePositive
    #73

    Toysoldier, stop being such a fucking idiot. Really. Use of the future tense, as opposed to a conditional auxiliary construction, refers to things that are definitely (or at least, very very probably) going to happen, rather than things that might only possibly happen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_tense

    And, getting the assailant behind bars is not just "difficult"--in all likelihood it WILL NOT FUCKING HAPPEN. RAINN estimates a 16.3% chance that it will be successful for reported rapes. Hence your use of the future tense is dishonest in the extreme.

    For goodness' sake man, just admit that you're being a fucking douche and minimizing the challenges of rape victims. Don't compound your idiocy by showing you don't know the first fucking thing about English grammar.

    By the way, I love the "I read it but I just choose not to find it convincing without putting any further thought into it at all and totally ignoring hard numbers about policy enforcement in various cities resulting in huge swings of unfounding rates, so I can just keep my absurd prejudices and not have to challenge my way of thinking" line of debate. So eloquent. So persuasive. So totally typical of a whiny self-centered fool who only wants to wallow in his own concerns and thinks everybody else can go fuck themselves.

    And, Toysoldier, people are not entitled to due process in "the court of public opinion." You're behaving just like those idiotic right-wingers who think that being criticized by another person somehow violates their free speech rights. If I have reason to believe that an acquaintance stole from me or threatened me or otherwise caused me harm, I have every right to inform others in my circle of what occurred, even if I do not have the time or energy to pursue the matter in legal channels. Private citizens are not required to keep silent about wrongs done to them until a court validates it. Your ignorance is just plain shocking.

  74. #74

    @AmericanInJapan:
    "I’m trying to work up the courage to tell the people that know him that I know, but its emotionally trying."

    I'm so sorry for what happened to you, and I wish there was a way to actually give you support via these e-comments. I'll just tell you I read your post, I heard what you said, I believe you, and I wish for you the clarity and conviction to do what you need to do for yourself--regardless of what that turns out to be.

  75. #75

    @Toysoldier

    People are entitled to due process.

    No one deprived anyone of due process! What, people aren't allowed to talk about their own lives now, unless a jury has determined their credibility?

  76. #76

    In order for someone to be placed on a sex offenders register there has to be a process. In this case, an employer or anyone else doing a search can come across the allegations on that face book page. This pair are now also prone to be targeted for violence.

  77. #77

    The fact that men's laws do not protect women from sexual assault, because men would like to keep their privilege to sexually assault women kind of invalidates the laws, don't you think? I could be raped again by men I know, and (just like the last two times) never, ever, ever be believed by my acquaintance or receive legal justice.

    Until our model of sex is changed in the cultural consciousness (that men do it and women consent to it), and the law accordingly, things won't change. Pissing about with trying to get this sexist, racist, ableist, male-supremacist legal system to punish/prevent men raping feels like a giant waste of time.

    'Are Women Human?' is a brilliant book by Catharine A. MacKinnon about women's rights, human rights, and equality that discusses these issues - I highly recommend it.

  78. #78

    I'm a bit iffy about really getting behind this woman's Facebook you-a culpa.

    While it is very courageous for her to publicly confront her demons and past issues, it doesn't make for a compelling case. Considering the only evidence is her own testimony, and she was heavily under the influence at the time, she basically has no case at all.

    While forming an online posse to hunt down the rapists and deprive them of their due process may feel good, it ultimately violates their rights, and considers them guilty until proven innocent. And just imagine if the accused didn't do it, or even worse, what if they just look like the people in her hazy recollection?

  79. #79

    Emilybites

    We have lots of historical evidence that men sought to protect women from rape. A womans honour was protected and men were taught to be "gentlemen" and so on.. basically the same demands that feminists make on men today.

    Here is a quote from the 1700s.

    "Rape is an accusation easily to be made, hard to be proved, and harder yet to be defended by the party accused, tho' never so innocent".

    -Sir Matthew Hale

    To suggest that men as a group sought to facilitate rape as McKinnon does is nothing but hate speech.

  80. #80

    "No one deprived anyone of due process! What, people aren’t allowed to talk about their own lives now, unless a jury has determined their credibility?"

    Of course we are allowed to talk about our own life experiences. We are also allowed to defend ourselves against defamation.

    If I accused you of something terrible that defamed your character and then I posted that accusation in a public place, you have every right to seek damages in court through litigation.

    The court of public opinion is profoundly fickle, emotional, and prone to error.

  81. #81

    I reported my rapes to the police. They came, took down the information I gave them and... I never heard from them again. I was 15 at the time. I'm 29 now. NOTHING was done. Not a damn thing.

  82. #82

    There is no chance of a conviction now, if it does it will be thrown out on the basis that the jury pool will be bias.

  83. LeftSidePositive
    #83

    Jeff,

    "Considering the only evidence is her own testimony, and she was heavily under the influence at the time, she basically has no case at all."

    THAT'S EXACTLY WHY SHE HAS CHOSEN TO GO PUBLIC WITH IT. Otherwise, you're just saying she's SOL after what happened to her. You're saying that you don't think that rape victims with difficult cases should have any means to hold their attacker accountable. You have shown that your world view is inherently pro-rapist and anti-victim.

    As for "if it's not true"--look, people lie about each other. Did you hear that Sherri from Accounting totally came on to Bob from Sales at the Christmas party? Did you hear that it was Jeff from Research that dented the boss's car in the lot? Some of these may be true, some not, but it's important that people have social mechanisms to keep their interpersonal relationships running smoothly. If you hear a story, you are free to make your own assessment of what happened: some will believe it, some will not, hopefully many will endeavor to take what happened seriously and make an educated decision.

    For example, one of the student groups at another university skipped out on a convention put on by a local college and didn't pay a $1500 bill and necessitated the reorganization of the event two days before because they cancelled. Yes, technically we (who didn't go that school) could have tried to take this up with their judicial department (who would *totally* be sympathetic to a bunch of undergrads from other schools!) and tried to get damages paid, but that wasn't really feasible and the damaged party didn't have the time and energy to pursue it. And, it's really not worth the hassle to go through court for that kind of money, but this group did cheat people. So, what did we do? We told everyone about what this group did, we told off members of that group, and we made it general knowledge that they were untrustworthy. The people who were in charge of giving grants knew about it, the people who set the rules for other conventions knew about it. Policies for future conventions were worded as unambiguously as possible. Without social consequences to actions, people are free to operate on the "I can be as much of a dick as I want as long as I stay just under the level where people can press charges" strategy, and that hurts everyone affected by them.

  84. LeftSidePositive
    #84

    Eo's idiocy continues:

    1) The statements on a Facebook page do not get anyone on a sex offender registry. You're not even trying to be honest here.

    2) The Hale quote you provided shows PERFECTLY that men (even more so in that era) facilitate rape and fail to protect women. Notice that this man's statement argues that rape accusations are trivial, and frames his worldview on the assumption the man is innocent and the woman is lying. He indicates no sense of urgency or obligation to investigate or take a claim seriously, he offers no suggestions for how to prove a rape, he just focuses on his belief that the alleged attacker is innocent. How is a woman supposed to obtain justice when society dismisses her with attitudes like that? She's not being protected. At all. A man who rapes his acquaintances is believed by other men to be "so innocent" so he is free to target and victimize other women and the same women, so the men that do not take the accusations seriously ARE in fact facilitating rape.

  85. #85

    @LeftSidePositive: Again, your lack of basic English grammar is most impressive, as is your apparent lack of basic comprehension skills. I would remind you accuse someone who experienced unwanted sexual contact of "minimizing the challenges of rape victims." That only makes you look the fool. As for your right to inform others about a crime committed against you, under the law, should you publicly accuse someone of a crime without evidence that person files charges and a civil suit against you.

    @MissaA: Publicly naming someone and calling them a rapist without a conviction deprives the person of due process because one's intent is for everyone to believe the accusation is true, even though its veracity has not been tested. One can discuss one's life experiences without naming the accused, as numerous people do quite frequently.

    @Eo: There could be a conviction as the jury would not necessarily include students who read the note.

  86. #86

    LSP, posting something like this on the internet is effectively carving it in stone. It's there forever, it's easy to find, and like most stuff on the internet it might be bunk.

    It's easy to turn this into a "I can be as much of a dick as I want on facebook" because it's a lot easier to put something out there than it is to remove it.

    I'm guessing most of the people here who are all "you go girl" about Rubenstein are also against the kind of internet bullying / shaming that led to at least two teenagers killing themselves in the last few years (that I recall, maybe there's more cases). It might feel good, and Rubenstein's probably correct, but that doesn't make it RIGHT.

  87. #87

    Leftsidepositive.

    You're main debating style here seems to be being deliberatly obtuse and then making long abusive posts that are designed to misrepresent and change the origional meaning of what you have read.

    It very simple, if something is posted on the internet that cant be removed, it might as wll be on the sex register because its there for anyone to find.

  88. LeftSidePositive
    #88

    Toysoldier, I have abundantly documented how you minimize the experience of rape victims, especially if they're female. You try to use sympathy for your own experiences to bolster up your bigotry, victim-blaming, and misrepresentation of everyone else's beliefs. Fuck off.

    Let's recap, shall we?

    LeftSidePositive
    April 13th, 2010
    2:02 pm
    Toysoldier, shut the fuck up, already! I mean really…you’re not fooling anyone. Your “victimization” by feminists is purely in your own head, and you come in here with a chip on your shoulder LOOKING to be dismissed. The reason you think feminists are against you is because you detest them from the beginning and will take literally anything we say as evidence that we don’t care about you. This is just pathological.

    The first time you shared your story to me & other posters, we stated very clearly that this was NOT okay and that we were very concerned about what happened, and what happened? You accused us of showing “disingenuous feminist pity.” (All the while having no idea how consent works, and repeatedly defending the practices & attitudes that lead people to make assumptions of entitlement to others’ bodies. In other words, you, a rape victim, spent much of that thread defending rape culture and claiming (female) victims need to resist more to be valid, and that men are entitled to sex if they “misinterpret” cues. For instance: “It is possible that a person only wants to kiss, but that person rubbing the other person’s body could be interpreted as an indication to go further. What you and others seem to imply is that with women this never occurs, i.e. women never give non-verbal cues that men could misinterpret” (post #228 of the above-linked thread). And then you have the nerve to say feminists don’t care enough about your victimization!)

    You come here and tell us over and over again what we have to do to be “good enough” at fighting for men’s causes as well, and when someone points to feminists advocating for that cause, you invariably say that we’re not going far enough FOR MEN. Then, when we make a fairly reasonable request, like, ‘Maybe men should get vaccinated against HPV so they don’t spread the cause of a deadly cancer to their sex partners,’ you say, “It just seems more prudent and important to focus on diseases that impact men more.

    You are a hypocrite, pure and simple, and I call bullshit.

    ******

    LeftSidePositive
    April 26th, 2010
    9:47 pm

    Toysoldier, you always (and I mean ALWAYS) complain that people don’t take your victimization seriously enough, and then you pull out TONS of victim-blaming when it comes to women!

    Oh, gee, we just don’t have the right to get drunk and party like normal people do!! Well, I guess we have to be perfectly virginal and never have any fun and that will “prevent that from occurring.” Never mind that virgins are raped, never mind that people who think they are with trusted friends are raped, and never mind that society should take steps to get rid of the PERPETRATORS, not tell half its population to live like second-class citizens.

    I’m shocked that you, a rape survivor, would spout such vile nonsense like someone may have been “too drunk to remember what occurred and therefore assume the sex was not consensual.” If a person is too drunk to remember, they are too drunk to give consent. Why do you think it’s okay to rape a drunk person? Hey, they were passed out, so what do they know? They might have enjoyed it? It’s only a crime if they remember every detail, right?! Do you remember every detail of being raped at the age of three? I don’t think I remember anything from being three. Why do you just assume it was not consensual? (Note: that last sentiment is intentionally ugly & inflammatory…I’m vainly hoping Toysoldier has some self-awareness to realize that taking sexual advantage of the incapacitated is wrong.)

    Maybe you should take a break from expressing your seething resentment towards women and actually learn something about sexual respect & consent. It would help you more as a survivor and make you a much better activist.

  89. #89

    @LeftSidePositive: Other than through legal means, no person should be allowed to hold other people accountable. To do so is vigilantism.

    Lying about a crime is more than giving people the "social mechanisms to keep their interpersonal relationships running smoothly." It can cause reprisals against the accused, including physical violence.

    Under the law, all defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty. This also applies those accused of rape. While that may seem egregious to you as a feminist, the purpose is to place the burden of proof on the prosecutors. It does not mean the accuser is considered a liar.

  90. #90

    "You have shown that your world view is inherently pro-rapist and anti-victim."

    Yeah yeah, Emily. And I just got called pro-terrorist and anti-American on the right-winger blogs for exactly the same reason. Wanting to see evidence and not stringing up somebody who is simply suspected of crime.

    "Otherwise, you’re just saying she’s SOL after what happened to her. "

    Well, she might just be. She needs evidence. The justice system is not her personal revenge army. When I was at college I had something stolen from me by my asshole roommate. In this instance, I knew who did it, but since I couldn't prove it, I was SOL. Not equivocation stolen property with sexual violence, but all criminal matters are the same before the court (justice is blind, see.)

    "Without social consequences"

    Social consequences? Seriously? These boys lives and reputations could be ruined simply because one woman wants to spread what amounts to gossip and rumors without a shred of evidence besides "I was drunk at a party." That's not justice. That's lynching. And being from Georgia, I know what that's like. Black people were lynched at the drop of a hat for suspicion, IF that. Sometimes because white people just didn't like them. How do we know this woman just didn't like these boys? What if they rebuffed her advances OR what if she just doesn't like the fact that they are white/black/hispanic/nerds?

    There's nothing I like more than nailing a rapist, particularly one who thought he could get away with it. But that's done with evidence, not through spreading nasty rumors.

  91. LeftSidePositive
    #91

    Oooooh, you poor boys! Posting something on the internet is forever! SO IS RAPE.

    Keith B, saying that something happened and declaring an experience is not the same AT ALL as relentless repetitive vicious harassment. Making a statement that someone did something to you or others is nothing like hounding them to suicide. Really.

    Can we also discuss the basic tendency that these men's first concern is about the well-being of THE ACCUSED RAPIST??? These people are convinced that the victim of sexual violence must limit all her response and recourse to WHAT IS LEAST LIKELY TO NEGATIVELY AFFECT THE ACCUSED RAPIST. Why does your world view never seem to include, "What about the mental health and well-being of the victim? What about other women (and men!) who are likely to be victimized if a person's sexual violence history is kept secret?"

  92. #92

    Leftsidepositive is s female on male date rape obsessed feminists.

    Feminists minimise, suppress and even deny the existance of female abuse and false accusers while calling a society that asks for due process when investigating rape, a crime with a high false reporting rate a "rape culture".

    Given that feminism suppresses female abuse and false accusers, feminism could be discribed as an abuse culture.

  93. LeftSidePositive
    #93

    Toysoldier, this is a profoundly stupid statement:

    "Other than through legal means, no person should be allowed to hold other people accountable."

    That is bullshit. Colossal, total bullshit. I have never been to court in my life. Does this mean I've never held anyone accountable? Of course not. Are you honestly telling me that you haven't refused to invite anyone to a party because they've been mean to your friend? That you haven't nominated someone to a leadership position because you doubt their competence or honesty? That you haven't asked people to pay you back if they damage your property, and tell others if they don't? As a schoolchild, did you never tell on another student until they'd been formally charged?

    Legal action is INCREDIBLY rare in most people's lives. There are lots of serious harm that people can do to each other that the legal system isn't equipped to handle. It takes years and lots and lots of money. People communicate with each other and cooperate with each other to keep their lives running smoothly, for lots of matters big and small.

  94. LeftSidePositive
    #94

    Jeff, are you honestly telling me you never told anyone your roommate was an asshole? That you never warned anyone not to leave their stuff around this guy? That you stayed completely silent to your friends and had them all include him as an equal, close, and trustworthy friend? Did you and all your friends treat him as blameless because no legal action could be taken?

    Or, as is more likely, did pretty much everyone in your social circle hear about the transgressions and infractions of your roommate?

  95. #95

    Leftsidepositive

    Were it up to fanatics like you there would be no due porcess, straight to jail.

    Here is a piece about the feminist influence on the diagraceful incarceration rate in the US.

    Its called "Feminist Gulag, no prosecution necessary".

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/2705-feminist-gulag-no-prosecution-necessary

  96. #96

    Toysoldier -

    You are right. Posting this on Facebook is an incredibly prejudicial act. I hope the alleged perpetrators (possibly the real victims here)sue for defamation, and win.

  97. AmericaninJapan
    #97

    @Toysoldier

    Why are you so invested in minimizing the experiences of the majority of rape survivors? I looked at the About of your Blog and while I admire ending the silence of male survivors but I don't understand why you're so obsessed with minimize the numbers of female survivors. Its not an either/or.

    I am a rape survivor and I have a male friend who was raped when he was in his 20s on a military base in Japan.
    You make false juxtapositions.

    Also your comments about due process are WRONG. Just as people confuse the right of you to say whatever you like without the government executing or imprisoning you for it, with a right to socially consequence-free speech, you're mistaking the right of people to have a fair trial and not have newspapers pre-determine the outcome for the right of people not ever saying anything bad about you. You know someone accused me on a public mailing list of being an illegal immigrant, (I'm not) and while I CAN sue that person for defamation of character, he DID NOT deprive me of due process by claiming I committed some crime.

  98. LeftSidePositive
    #98

    AmericanInJapan, I've re-quoted some of Toysoldier's choice victim-blaming and hypocrisy but the post was too long (not surprising!) so it got stuck in moderation. Check back in a few days and see what a self-centered bigot he is!

  99. #99

    "That you stayed completely silent to your friends and had them all include him as an equal, close, and trustworthy friend?"

    I didn't have that many friends in college. I was mostly kind of a bookworm who stayed in the dorm working and when not doing that I was playing Super Mario Bros. I have a few online friends, and I didn't see how telling them Eric Taylor was a thief amounted to any sort of justice whatsoever.

    So yeah, my family and my distant online buddies knew that Eric Taylor was a stone cold thief. Whatever good that did me or however badly that punished him I'm not sure. Social ousting doesn't work if you're kind of an outsider to begin with.

    "Can we also discuss the basic tendency that these men’s first concern is about the well-being of THE ACCUSED RAPIST???"

    The basic tendency of most justice systems in the civilized world is actually to protect the rights of the accused. That's why it went from people being strung up by mobs to courtrooms. The rights of the accused is for due process, and this applied to thieves, murderers, rapists, jaywalkers, etc. They are not immediately thrown into jail and stripped of their rights (or citizenship, in terrorism's case).

    IF she wanted to enact this sort of social justice, why not press charges to begin with? It does basically the same thing as rumor-mongering on the internet, and you can still do that, to boot, with official police records and such. And there's also the possibility she could have drawn a sympathetic jury who would have convicted the accused rapist. And then we'd have a bonafide rapist to hate upon, treat like an animal, and absolutely destroy, as opposed to social vengeance based on a facebook entry,

  100. #100

    I think the problem for feminists is that the legal system tries to be fair to both parties; it doesn't assume that a crime actually happened until it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    What I'm getting from the feminists on this thread is that what they really want is mob justice--namely lynching. The woman is believed without any requirement to prove her allegation and the man is hunted down like an animal post haste.

  101. #101

    Jeff, not to be snarky, but you just named on the internet, in an irrevocable fashion, the person who stole your stuff. Haven't you been against that this whole time? Hypocrisy: I bet it's fun.

    Also, it's not lynching or hearsay. She walked in on her friend being raped. She was a direct witness to a crime. Let's not try to ply the law the way we want to, ok?

  102. #102

    Oh, and Eo: the reason that so many male rape and abuse reports go unnoticed is the current gender constructions in a patriarchal society. Men are expected to be strong and powerful. To admit that they were powerless, especially to a woman, is discouraged and considered weak. Male victimization happens and very few feminists deny that fact. But the statistics are skewed because a lot of people (men and women) who are raped do not report. This is doubly as hard for men to report. And, generally, by the time they do report it, it's too late for anything to be done about it except serious therapy.

  103. #103

    "The Hale quote you provided shows PERFECTLY that men (even more so in that era) facilitate rape and fail to protect women."

    Why is it a man's job to protect women? That is gender-based privilege, nothing more. That type of chivalry infantilizes women.

    As an aside, our system of jurisprudence is one of the cornerstones of our society and civilization. Justice must be blind lest we fall back on mob rule and general civil chaos where a person's rights mean little more than the voice of an accuser.

    Innocent until proven guilty... got it?

  104. #104

    Zammo: That would be sound advice if justice was blind. It's not, however. Regardless of that fact, she is not automatically condemning them to guilt by accusing them. She is merely accusing them. That is allowed. Free speech and whatnot. And, as Amanda stated above, there is nothing saying that the woman who was raped did not go to the law first.

  105. LeftSidePositive
    #105

    Jeff, the point is YOU DID use social pressure and social reaction when you were wronged. It doesn't matter if you didn't have a wide platform--you used whatever platform you had. YOU DID exactly the same thing that you tell us we're not allowed to do. People air their grievances socially--that's what we do. We're social animals. You didn't believe he should be considered "innocent" socially just because you couldn't legally prosecute.

    And yes, it is valuable that people are innocent until proven guilty criminally--BUT that is not an excuse to do a half-assed investigation of a crime or to cast exceptional doubt upon an accuser (which is what happens in rape). It is precisely BECAUSE in our society criminal convictions are difficult to obtain that social responses are important. Look at O.J. Simpson--he got off for murder, but people still keep criticizing him and consider him guilty. It's exactly the same thing with mob and gang violence--even if people are too terrified to testify against someone, we don't just treat mob bosses like they're fine upstanding members of society until they get convicted.

    Typhonblue--you're wrong on two very important counts:

    1) The criminal justice system rarely actually doubts THAT THE CRIME OCCURRED. They're far more likely to doubt if they have the right person, or if there were mitigating circumstances. If you report a robbery, it's very unlikely that the police will doubt that you were in fact robbed. They may not be sure who did it, but that's not AT ALL the same as doubting the fact of the crime. Except in rape. There, people go far beyond evaluating the guilt or innocence of the alleged perpetrator, and instead seek to diminish, degrade, and negate the experiences of the victim.

    2) No one is hunting down the man. Not even close. He's being criticized--that is NOT the same as being hunted down. No one is advocating acts of harassment or violence. He is merely being excluded from a social circle, for the safety of those within it. You have no inherent right to be invited to people's parties. You have no inherent right for your friends to speak highly of you or fix you up with whoever you want. You have no inherent right to be trusted when you offer to drive a girl home. The girls in this story are communicating their experiences and focusing on keeping themselves and others safe from these perpetrators, NOT seeking revenge on them.

  106. #106

    @Kristina:

    "Also, it’s not lynching or hearsay. She walked in on her friend being raped. She was a direct witness to a crime."

    Your only proof is the woman's word. You have tried and convicted these men in your mind based only on the testimony of one person.

    The difference between that and lynching is quantitative not qualitative.

    "To admit that they were powerless, especially to a woman, is discouraged and considered weak."

    And this framing is further stigmatizing and blaming male victims. Maybe it's less about their 'male ego' and more about not feeling like they're going to be believed, or that they'll be mocked.

    In fact I don't think I've ever heard one male victim talk about how the real problem was his bruised ego. They appeared more desperate to be believed then anything, sometimes deeply confused by their negative responses to something society says is harmless or beneficial.

  107. #107

    "Jeff, not to be snarky, but you just named on the internet, in an irrevocable fashion, the person who stole your stuff. Haven’t you been against that this whole time? Hypocrisy: I bet it’s fun."

    Yeah, I just did (that's my point.) What good did it do me? Eric Taylor is a common name. If his name was Yevshenko Zwordikan, it would certainly narrow down the list, but there are lots of Eric Taylor's (there were even two Eric Taylor's in the same dorm building.) So the Social thief-shaming doesn't work in this instance, especially to my online buddies from other states and even other countries.

    "Also, it’s not lynching or hearsay. She walked in on her friend being raped. She was a direct witness to a crime. Let’s not try to ply the law the way we want to, ok?"

    No, she has her testimony. Which is "I was drunk at a party and I think I saw a friend of mine being raped. Also, she was drunk to, as were the boys she was having relations with." That's not enough for a indictment, let alone an conviction, and certainly not even to throw the rights of the accused under the bus for.

    And yes, it IS lynching. It doesn't end in a hanging, but it is going around the court system to rape-shame two boys, on little evidence.

  108. #108

    @typhonblue: OK, well I'm sure you've spent extensive amounts of time studying up on male victimization in sex offense cases. No? I have. It's actually my area of specialty. I am currently studying sex offender treatment programs. I am especially interested in the under-reported area of female offenders. That IS the reason the statistics are skewed. It's been shown quantitatively with empirical evidence. Also, stop throwing around big words like qualitative and quantitative when they make absolutely no sense in that context. It's sad.

    And I am not at all a proponent of trying and pronouncing guilty anyone without proof. But she saw what she saw. You can't take that away from her, nor can anyone else. I did not say that I think these men are guilty. I said that she has a right to say what she saw. She does.

  109. #109

    Telling tales on the internet is in *no way* the same as pressing criminal charges. Pressing criminal charges could result in someone going to jail, and the accuser has no say in sentencing. While some survivors of sexual violence would like nothing more than to see their abuser locked away forever, others (especially those who knew their abuser prior to the event, i.e. acquaintance rape) may not want anything so drastic.

    You know what's a lot more life changing than having some people on your college campus think you're a douche? A jail sentence. I've been the recipient of unwanted sexual attention from several acquaintances while drunk; it never crossed my mind to lock them up, but I made it known that they couldn't be trusted while drunk.

    And one other thing, did this story end with "and then the two men in question were strung up and left to rot outside the student center by the campus feminazis"? No? Then why are we talking about a "lynch mob mentality" which will "ruin their lives forever"? Actually, it seems that Ms. Rubenstein herself was subjected to friends of the men in question harassing her in groups on campus... sounds suspiciously like a mob to me...

  110. LeftSidePositive
    #110

    Zammo--everyone should protect everyone. We're all in this society together, and we all have a collective obligation to make sure we have practices and procedures in place that maintain people's safety.

    AND ANOTHER THING: for all this oh-so-serious concern for "vigilante justice" that the menfolk seem to be spouting, let's look at the ACTUAL thuggery, harassment, and intimidation that happened with regard to this incident:

    Others were more confrontational. On campus, Rubenstein says that supporters of the accused started to walk “in circles around me, trying to intimidate me.” She received several anonymous phone calls at odd hours. When she picked up the phone, from a private number, a male voice repeated the phrase, “I’m a police officer and I have a few questions I need to ask you,” growing sterner with each iteration.

    THIS is vigilanteism. Calling people at home or following them and threatening their personal space and privacy is mob rule. AND IT'S THE MALE SOCIAL STRUCTURE DOING IT. Declaring your experiences is not harassment. Calling someone at odd hours and impersonating a police officer is.

    Why are all these men who are SOOOOOO concerned about "innocent until proven guilty" up in arms about how Rubenstein was treated? She hasn't actually been convicted of defamation, so why are these men treating her like she's guilty of it?

    Your double-standard is sickening, boys!

  111. #111

    Kristina

    Feminism willfully covers up abuse that isnt male on female and blaming the patriarchy for everything is the result of being programed with a certain political outlook.

    The main battle male victims have these days is feminist patriarchay abuse theory which states that abuse is gendered.

    Im can post story after story of men who have gone for help to be told by the feminist constructed abuse industry that they much have imagined it because mothers dont sexually abuse. Same goes for domestic abuse, ,male victims have been routinely told that they must be the abuser.

  112. #112

    LSP:

    "They may not be sure who did it, but that’s not AT ALL the same as doubting the fact of the crime. Except in rape."

    Rape is a crime based on proving/disproving consent. It is far more difficult to prove property damage or theft.

    "No one is hunting down the man."

    How do you know that? Accusations like these often lead to violence against the accused. Male friends or relatives(sometimes even random vigilantes) of the alleged rape victim(s) often do take 'justice' into their own hands.

    But I suppose women don't need to take responsibility for wielding their 'victim power'(ability to motivate others to save/avenge them) over potentially innocent men.

    I wonder what feminists would say if the situation was reversed? If men were automatically believed when accusing women of a highly stigmatized act which then resulted in said women being socially outcast or, in some cases, murdered/assaulted by other people.

  113. #113

    "Jeff, the point is YOU DID use social pressure and social reaction when you were wronged. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t have a wide platform–you used whatever platform you had. YOU DID exactly the same thing that you tell us we’re not allowed to do. People air their grievances socially–that’s what we do. We’re social animals. You didn’t believe he should be considered “innocent” socially just because you couldn’t legally prosecute."

    I didn't post a sign on the campus lawn that said Eric Taylor is a thief, though, did I? That's what this woman is doing. And considering it DIDN'T WORK IN MY CASE, Social revenge is not a good way to get justice, period. Gossip is not a substitute for legitimate justice.

    "Look at O.J. Simpson–he got off for murder, but people still keep criticizing him and consider him guilty."

    O.J. is precisely why this sort of social gossip is a horrible substitute. The whole jury well was poisoned by O.J.'s fame, money, SOCIAL status and all the chattering and talking of Marcia Clark's hairdo and racist cops that actual justice based on the evidence was considered LAST. Look how he ultimately did get convicted. His star faded, he hired a thug to accompany him to commit a robbery, and the victims GOT IT ON TAPE. EVIDENCE. They didn't do it with nasty emails and blog updates.

    Think of how the woman who posted the facebook page was treated in return. She got threatened and harassed at school. Is this bad? She basically did the same thing right? The accused's supporters are enacting social justice in lieu of suing her for libel, right? This is acceptable, yes?

  114. #114

    Feminism does no such thing. Don't even bother posting your skewed stories. I don't care what you think. I am actually involved with the criminal justice system and how it works for male and female victimization, so I know what's going on, outside of what the media tells you. Again, thanks for trolling.

  115. #115

    LSP wrote: "Making a statement that someone did something to you or others is nothing like hounding them to suicide. Really."

    Oh, just making a statement. Is that all? LSP, "The weather is gorgeous today" is making a statement. "At 11:30pm last night Joe Bagadonuts raped my roomate" is MUCH DIFFERENT BALLGAME. When it's there forever, for 980 people to see, and for them to tell their friends, and for Joe's parents / boss / girlfriend / boyfriend to see. Where are you drawing the line here? So I can post "I saw Suzy Q leaving her 2 year old child locked in a hot car with a pitbull" if I just feel like messing up her life? Is that acceptable when "Suzy Q has a flat chest and bad teeth" isn't?

    Also: what the fuck is your problem with folks, LeftSidePositive? You're the bitch equivalent of those pricks from Male Studies that briefly invaded the comments here. Your every reply is a shrieky accusation against anyone not buying your bullshit? Either they're rape apologists, MEN, HORRIBLE MEN OUT TO RAPE, rape sympathizers, victim blamers, etc. Really. The world isn't black or white. Not everyone sees things your way. Disagreement with you is not tantamount to defending rapists. Are you able to disagree without being disagreeable? Is this your crusade to make society a safer place for women? Can I ask you, is it working?

  116. #116

    LSP wrote: "Your double-standard is sickening, boys!"

    Fuck you, bitch. I condemned that late-night call bullshit in my second post, if you could put aside your seething man-hate for a minute and read.

    That's it. I'm posting under a woman's name on this blog from now on here, just to see how much of a different response I get. You obviously have a serious axe to grind with all mankind, and might as well have your fingers in your ears as far as anything people (MEN!!!) who disagree with you have to say.

  117. #117

    “No one is hunting down the man.”

    No one was hunting down Dr. Tiller until somebody shot him in the back of the head while he was praying in church. Before that, the airwaves were poisoned with right-wing anger. They couldn't sue him or get him arrested, so they went around the justice system and painted targets on him on the internet and radio and Fox News, calling him a baby killer, on the air. They used what platforms they had until somebody DID answer their desires.

    This woman isn't much different. She has painted targets on these two boys and all it takes is one nutcase.

  118. LeftSidePositive
    #118

    Jeff, the fact that you consider that to be so little evidence shows that there is something very wrong with you. First: why are you discounting her eyewitness account? What indication do you have that she was too drunk to know what rape looks like? None but your own prejudice. Second: a guy belatedly entering a room where someone is known to be alone seems a lot more like predatory behavior than any notion that they mutually agreed to get it on. Third: if a girl (who in this case is the vulnerable party because the guy *took it upon himself* to enter the room and have sex with her) is too drunk to consent, it's rape. Full stop. It doesn't matter what he's thinking or what he's drinking--there is no excuse for following a drunk person into a bedroom and having sex with them. None. Fourth: there's a lot more evidence than just what she saw that night. Her friend was behaving traumatized and others corroborated she was in significant psychological distress.

    If having a witness see someone being raped isn't good enough for you, what about cases where predators successfully isolate their victims and rape them? This is a pretty well-established WITNESSED assault, and you still don't think it's enough to be sure about--this shows your vested interest in minimizing sexual assault and ignoring the realities of how vulnerable people get victimized.

  119. #119

    @ Kristina

    "OK, well I’m sure you’ve spent extensive amounts of time studying up on male victimization in sex offense cases. No? I have."

    So in your experience men don't report sexual victimization(by women) because they're humiliated due to loss of male power.

    If you have statistical evidence that this is why men don't report then I will have to concede the point, but I have to confess that is radically different from my (admittedly) anecdotal experience.

    "Also, stop throwing around big words like qualitative and quantitative when they make absolutely no sense in that context. "

    Well, you understood what I was getting at, which is good enough.

    "I did not say that I think these men are guilty."

    And if they're innocent they're in for a world of (unearned) hurt.

    @LSP

    "Why are all these men who are SOOOOOO concerned about “innocent until proven guilty” up in arms about how Rubenstein was treated"

    Again, we only have her word that this stuff happened. Which is exactly the point.

  120. #120

    @LSP:

    "First: why are you discounting her eyewitness account?"

    No one is discounting her account; as far as I can tell they're just not automatically believing her as you are.

    Do you automatically believe men in the same way? For example, if one of the guys said 'nope, I didn't do it' would you automatically believe his testimony?

  121. #121

    @typhonblue: As it's the end of the semester, I'd really rather not do any more research on the topic. I finally finished all of my papers on sex offender treatment, so I'm done for the summer. You don't have to believe me. Not to be rude, but you're a faceless internet nobody, as am I, so I don't really care that much about your opinion, as you probably care little about mine. Consider this, however: the men that do have the courage to speak up probably didn't feel that pressure and so do not have "bruised egos" as you so disparagingly put it. I'm not blaming male victims. I wish more of them would come forward for help.

  122. #122

    Okay Jeff, you jumped completely off the deep end with the Dr. Tiller comparison. For starters: DR. TILLER WAS KILLED FOR OPERATING A *COMPLETELY LEGAL* CLINIC. He was hounded continuously for YEARS by radio AND television personalities on a national scale. And yes, people *were* hunting him. He had been shot once before, in the 90s. He was the victim of a systematic, nation-wide campaign of harassment that resulted in his death.

    The two men in question were outed a sexual predators via the facebook note of a private citizen which has been subsequently removed. The note was visible *only* to her facebook friends, and is no longer available online. This is in NO WAY comparable to the decades-long, coordinated, highly publicized campaign against Dr. Tiller and his *legal* business. I don't think you could have come up with a more divergent case to compare with this one if you had tried with *both hands*.

  123. #123

    K, you make a good point but we don't know what happened to these two d-bags. We know they/their friends are being jerks to Rubenstein. And I doubt that they were strung up by feminazis (honestly, I think more people would want their blood than just LSP-type womyn). But we don't know. Maybe Amanda can follow up, presumably she knows their names (via Rubenstein) and could find out what the consequences were. Maybe they get threatening phone calls too. We have no idea.

    Pre-emptive comment: I AM NOT DEFENDING THESE ASSHOLES. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS. I AM POINTING OUT WE DON'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE FB POST ON THEM BECAUSE NO ONE HAS ASKED THEM OR PROVIDED THE INFORMATION. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

  124. #124

    @ Kristina:

    "Consider this, however: the men that do have the courage to speak up probably didn’t feel that pressure and so do not have “bruised egos” as you so disparagingly put it."

    Because it is a disparaging framing.

    Saying that men don't speak up about their sexual victimization by women because they are humiliated by being made to feel powerless(as men) seems both a gross simplification and an underhanded way of blaming victims for their own silencing.

  125. #125

    typhonblue: It is not disparaging. It is statistically proven that this is the case. Again, I have nothing to prove to you, but this is what my graduate study is centered upon, so, yes, I would know. It is not an underhanded way of blaming at all. It is why some men do not come forward. Most, in fact. Continue arguing your point all you want, but my master's degree is specifically tailored to work within a criminal justice, multicultural context (all genders, races, religions, ethnicities, abilities, etc. included) so that I am as competent to do my job as possible. I have no intention of proving that to you because, as stated, I've nothing to prove to a faceless internet person, so enjoy your conversation with yourself.

  126. #126

    Kristina

    We have the studies, and the studies on feminists methods of concealing evidence. Just look at this blog. 99% of it is about promoting male on female date rape, its not concerned with female on male rape, female on male false accusations, female on female rape, if anything most of the contributers here supress these informetion on these things.

    Feminism is the main promoter of the female = victim male = abuser lie. And that lie is the biggest problem that male victims have because all the resources, services and funding is based on the patriarchal abuse lie.

  127. #127

    @ Kristina:

    "It is not disparaging."

    When I say 'men don't come forward because their egos are bruised' it's disparaging. But when you say 'men don't come forward because they're humiliated by being made to feel powerless by women' it's not disparaging?

    They seem to be the same thing to me.

    "It is statistically proven that this is the case."

    Do you have a cite?

  128. #128

    typhonblue, Eo, all other trolls attempting to get a rise: Not citing anything for you. No longer care. Know what I know. Enjoy the cushy lives you seem to lead where you can sit on a website for hours in order to argue about things you know nothing about.

    Peace.

  129. #129

    "all the resources, services and funding is based on the patriarchal abuse lie"

    That's going a bit far don't you think, Eo? I don't like arguing if something is/isn't based on the patriarchy, but I'm rather of the impression that there's much more violent / date / acquaintance rape committed by men on women than any of the other permutations of m/f sexual assault. Are you saying this isn't the case? (Can you point us to credible a URL?)

  130. #130

    @ Kristina:

    "Not citing anything for you."

    I'm getting the sense you cannot support your assertion.

    "Enjoy the cushy lives you seem to lead where you can sit on a website for hours in order to argue about things you know nothing about."

    I am also in the process of doing original research on a graduate level. If you were to ask me about any assertion I've made I could give you a cite in about thirty seconds.

  131. #131

    Actually, for argument's sake, and because I really like proving people wrong:

    "This myth, instilled through masculine gender socialization and sometimes referred to as the "macho image," declares that males, even young boys, are not supposed to be victims or even vulnerable. We learn very early that males should be able to protect themselves. In truth, boys are children - weaker and more vulnerable than their perpetrators - who cannot really fight back. Why? The perpetrator has greater size, strength, and knowledge. This power is exercised from a position of authority, using resources such as money or other bribes, or outright threats - whatever advantage can be taken to use a child for sexual purposes."

    From this source:

    http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html

  132. LeftSidePositive
    #132

    Typhonblue:

    About 6% of rapists actually spend a day in jail. What are you talking about in being "automatically believed"? That's just your own prejudice talking.

    Jeff:

    "And considering it DIDN’T WORK IN MY CASE, Social revenge is not a good way to get justice, period. Gossip is not a substitute for legitimate justice."

    Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. Deep down you know that, because it's exactly what you sought for yourself, but you want to deny rape victims even that small satisfaction.

    And, you're totally conflating "social justice" with "reprisals." If they didn't invite her to parties, if they kept her out of their study groups, even if they made some fairly snide facebook comments, that would all be fairly kosher. They actually went out and intimidated and threatened her. TOTALLY different kettle of fish, and I think you can see that.

    You can also see that with Dr. Tiller. Bill O'Reilly saying "This man is executing babies about to be born," and "This is the kind of stuff that happened in Mao's China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union" is NOTHING like a warning girls to "stay away at all costs" like Rubenstein said. Groups like the Lambs of Christ and the Army of God actually advocated violence against abortion providers. Rachel Shannon said "If somebody kills George Tiller, I would not assume they did the wrong thing."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/anti-abortion-george-tiller-shooting

    THAT is what led to violence (and, the fact that police ignored escalating threats). Not people objecting to his practice or arguing about the ethics of what he was doing. I'm very pro-choice, and I think the forced-pregnancy crowd is a bunch of rabid nutsos, but I respect their right to freedom of speech as long as it doesn't *directly incite violence* which is what many of them did (and still do). If you can't tell the difference between someone objecting to harm done to them and actually advocating violent reprisals, you're being willfully obtuse.

    Keith B:
    If you DID actually see Suzy Q leave her 2 year old in the car with a pit bull wouldn't you sure as hell say something about it?!?!?! Would you let your other friends' kids go with her for babysitting?

    And, yes (assuming Suzy Q actually DID do what you say), that's a great deal more important than mocking her appearance. Suzy Q's appearance doesn't hurt anyone, but if she took action that resulted in danger to others, that needs attention.

    You weren't one of the ones that was going on and on about "vigilante justice" so that wasn't addressed to you. But, at the same time, you didn't actually "condemn" the phone call, you just called it ineffective. "Yeah, that's the way to clear your name" doesn't really address the violation of privacy and stalkerness of what they did.

  133. #133
  134. #134

    Seriously, just search Google for male victim self-report, and you'll find whatever you need. Probably up to and including any evidence you'd like to use against me. As a counseling major, I am told this information in order to better serve my clients. It is not disparaging. It is used to help male victims through a tough time. I want to work with sex offenders to rehabilitate them. And a vast majority of sex offenders were sexually abused themselves. So I do need to know why the males don't report as much as they ought to in order to help them more effectively.

  135. #135

    @ Kristina:

    I hate to point this out to you, but that quote does not support your assertion.

    You were saying that men don't report sexual victimization by women because of the humiliation of being rendered powerless--thus they are silenced by their big ol' male egos.

    Your quote says nothing about humiliation as a reason why male victims don't speak out. It appears to be addressing a reason why men aren't believed when they speak out, namely that men are not supposed to be vulnerable even in situations when it is obvious that they are(boyhood, etc.)

  136. #136

    It's the same assertion used in a different context. Why is it okay to say that this perception is why they aren't believed when it's not okay to say that this perception is why they don't report?

  137. #137

    @ LSP

    "About 6% of rapists actually spend a day in jail. What are you talking about in being “automatically believed”?"

    I'm talking about you; you automatically believe what she's saying without corroborating proof.

  138. #138

    LSD

    Back up your factoids

    "About 6% of rapists actually spend a day in jail"

    Even if that was true (and I know by "rapists" you just mean male on female rapists) the incarceration rate for female on male and female on female and female on child rapists is far lower than whatever the actual incarceration rate is for male on female rapists is.

  139. #139

    LSP, my point was kind of that using the internet to shame / humiliate people isn't much different than other internet bullying. If I say Susie wrecklessly endangers her kids, and her Evil Inlaws use that to make her life hellish, that isn't to me much removed from those kids who called the girl slut, ho, etc until she couldn't deal with it. Granted, and adult is probably less likely to kill themselves.

    I dunno. To me, this is much closer to tar-and-feather than it is to "don't trust that guy over there he stole my bike".

    Sorry for being so foulmouthed.

  140. #140

    @ Kristina:

    "It’s the same assertion used in a different contex"

    It's not the same assertion.

    You're saying men don't speak out because they feel humiliated by being rendered powerless by women.

    They're saying that men aren't _perceived_ to be victims because of the expectation that men are invulnerable.

    A man might be ashamed that he failed to protect himself(I'm sure women are too) and that can be a reason he doesn't speak out; but that's a far cry from saying that most(MOST) men don't speak out about their sexual victimization at the hands of women because they're humiliated by being rendered powerless by a woman.

    That framing strongly suggests a 'take that' at male victims; If they didn't have that big ol' patriarchal male macho ego--weren't so upset by being overpowered by a woman--they'd be speaking out and getting help.

    Let's put it another way. Do you think men feeling humiliated by being overpowered by women is a valid response to being victimized? Or do you think if they just got rid of their big ol' patriarchal male macho ego, they'd be so much better off and worthy of support.

    I sense the victim-blaming is strong with this one.

  141. #141

    "First: why are you discounting her eyewitness account? What indication do you have that she was too drunk to know what rape looks like? None but your own prejudice."

    Doesn't the blog post say she was a party and they all drank "cheap vodka." I'm not against eyewitnesses, but I'd rather have sober ones. And since that's ALL the evidence. We don't convict murderers on eyewitness counts under the influence. Hell we don't even convict thieves on that.

    "Second: a guy belatedly entering a room where someone is known to be alone seems a lot more like predatory behavior than any notion that they mutually agreed to get it on."

    Objection, says the defense attorney. You have no idea about his state of mind.

    "Third: if a girl (who in this case is the vulnerable party because the guy *took it upon himself* to enter the room and have sex with her) is too drunk to consent, it’s rape. Full stop. It doesn’t matter what he’s thinking or what he’s drinking–there is no excuse for following a drunk person into a bedroom and having sex with them."

    Again, we have no idea what happened other than a single person's testimony. And there's lots of drunken sex all over the place at colleges now. Nobody's going to whip out a breathalyzer to confirm that their partner is under the legal BAC limit for consensual sex. (what is the legal limit, BTW?) Now I AGREE that drugging somebody for sex is Rape, period. But that has to be narrowly construed to forced consumption by fraud or force. Not to when she's too drunk to stand because she just did three beer bongs, as well. And what about the perp here? Was he drunk too? Is there such a thing as "too drunk to rape?" We do have lesser murder charges for people who hit somebody on the road under the influence vs. stabbing them and taking their money. Why does diminished capacity only go one way here?

    Nevertheless, IF he did it, he should pay. But only if convicted, by evidence, not by gossip and conjecture.

    "Fourth: there’s a lot more evidence than just what she saw that night. Her friend was behaving traumatized and others corroborated she was in significant psychological distress."

    But we don't know WHY she was traumatized. People have had bad hangovers that seem like they've been hit with a brick repeatedly. Again, this is no evidence.

    "If having a witness see someone being raped isn’t good enough for you, what about cases where predators successfully isolate their victims and rape them? This is a pretty well-established WITNESSED assault, and you still don’t think it’s enough to be sure about–this shows your vested interest in minimizing sexual assault and ignoring the realities of how vulnerable people get victimized."

    Thing is, we'll never know if it would have been enough or not, since she never went to the police about it. As much as our current justice system can sometimes benefit criminals because of physical evidence's prominence over eyewitness accounts, nothing benefits them more than a 4 month head start, or when crime is never reported at all. And please stop guessing at my motives. Rape is the third most reprehensible crime known to man, only behind the same crime on a child and that same crime followed by murder. I'd like nothing more than to see these two in jail, deprived of every right for at least 15 years... IF THEY DID IT.

    "Okay Jeff, you jumped completely off the deep end with the Dr. Tiller comparison. For starters: DR. TILLER WAS KILLED FOR OPERATING A *COMPLETELY LEGAL* CLINIC. He was hounded continuously for YEARS by radio AND television personalities on a national scale. And yes, people *were* hunting him. He had been shot once before, in the 90s. He was the victim of a systematic, nation-wide campaign of harassment that resulted in his death."

    I'm just not seeing much of a difference other than the end result. Yeah what he was doing is legal. But that didn't matter to the social bullies. They pestered him anyway, calling for his death, praying it would one day happen. And it did. How is facebook shaming any different, other than scale?

  142. #142

    @ Jeff:

    "But we don’t know WHY she was traumatized."

    Careful.

    Every bit of this is the testimony of _one_ person.

    Unless Amanda interviewed other sources besides Rubenstein, which isn't clear from the article.

  143. LeftSidePositive
    #143

    Typhonblue--I also automatically believed Jeff when he talked about his property being stolen. I have no idea who his roommate is but I am fairly certain that he did in fact steal the property in question or that Jeff honestly believes that he did and has reasonable indications for that belief. That's not to say I could convict his roommate if I were in a jury that just went to deliberation, but people generally tell the truth about these sorts of things. And, in any event, for the purposes of this discussion on the internet I would discuss it in reference to an actual theft since I have no reason to believe it's not, and that is the context in which it is relevant. I also pretty quickly believed that Bernie Madoff was a crook as soon as the story broke. Even though some people lie about their grandmother dying to get out of annoying meetings, if someone told me their grandmother died I wouldn't cling intensely to the belief that the were one of the lying ones, like people do about rape accusers. I believe Toysoldier's stories of victimization (that doesn't change the fact that he acts like a total asshole to others, but I can see where that pathology comes from and I do have pity for him while I don't excuse his delusions and bigotry). I even believe that Tash is actually a real person and actually Eo's girlfriend, even though her presentation was suspicious at first.

    You have provided no reason to doubt what Rubenstein says and she has nothing to gain from being harassed or from ostracizing "innocent" boys. Yes, it's the internet, and anybody could be anybody, and I understand that privacy concerns prevent someone from posting exactly what happened during someone else's sexual assault, so I don't have enough info to specifically evaluate it. All I can say is that--given what is available to me, I support and respect the decision to make the facts of a sexual assault public to protect others. Even if Rubenstein is herself a liar and a monster (unlikely, but I don't know her from Eve, so I guess anything's possible), that doesn't change the fact that IN GENERAL it is responsible and helpful to eliminate the social cover for rapists, and people do have the right to speak publicly about what happened to them. If indeed Rubenstein is a liar and a monster, I would support anyone who has ACTUAL reason to believe that (no, sorry, "She's a girl and she was drunk so what could she know" doesn't cut it) saying why, and then intelligent people can assess the situation and come to their own conclusions. That's how the court of public opinion works.

  144. #144

    Kristina

    Denial of female abuse by the abuse industry is a bigger problem than gender socialisation IMO.

    "86% of those who tried
    to tell anyone were not believed the first time they disclosed".

    Professional denial
    One 60-year-old man said:
    I tried to tell my therapist when I was 35. She told me that I was having fantasies about my
    mother and that I needed more therapy to deal with it. In reality, my mother had physically
    and sexually abused me for as long as I could remember. The abuse was horrific, including
    beatings and sado-masochistic sex. It took a lot of courage for me to tell. When she (the
    therapist) didn’t respond, I quit therapy and spent the next 15 years in hell. I began to think
    that maybe I had just imagined it all, but why were the memories so vivid and in such detail?
    Just hearing that this has happened to others has helped to restore my sanity. Maybe now I
    can find someone who will listen and believe me. Sixty years is a long time to wait.
    Sixty-five per cent of the survivors who tried to tell a therapist, doctor, teacher or other
    professional were not believed the first time they disclosed. Overall, 86% of those who tried
    to tell anyone were not believed the first time they disclosed.
    http://www.kidscape.org.uk/assets/downloads/Femalesexualabuseofchildren.pdf

  145. #145

    @typhonblue: I'm not 100% sure, but I think that you and Kristina are basically saying the same thing re: male rape victims. I *think* she's saying that male-victim rapes are underreported because men are socialized to feel as though they should not be vulnerable or susceptible to attack. I don't think it's disparaging to say that some male victims might feel humiliated by their rapes, IF you place the blame for those feelings (as I think Kristina does) on societal influence and whatnot.

    Just trying to make things friendlier...I've dropped a few f-bombs, I'll admit, around here in my day, but the sight of a "fuck you, bitch" and back-to-back comment fighting makes me nervous/headachey.

  146. #146

    @Katie: Yes. All of what you said.

  147. #147

    Is it just me or is a major part of this story missing? When she saw the girl being raped in her bedroom did she call the police or attempt to get some of the other party goers to stop what was going on? If not why? Something doesn't add up?

    from the story:

    But when she walked into her own bedroom the night of the snowstorm, she recognized what was happening. “It was re-traumatizing for me. I was trying to wrap my head around it for a month,” says Rubenstein, now 20. “It was the same weird feeling I had had a month after I was raped.”

    Weeks after the snow had melted, Rubenstein called her friend to see how she was doing. She refused to take Rubenstein’s calls, but a mutual friend informed Rubenstein that the woman was still reeling from the events of the party.

  148. #148

    @Matt: Well, to be fair, if something is traumatizing in any way (re- or no), it's going to stint your ability to necessarily take action with some people. Some people might automatically run for the police, while some people, like (I suspect) Rubenstein, are at least momentarily completely destabilized and not able to fully register what happened or what is happening. So maybe she didn't run to the police immediately, but she tried to do what she could.

  149. #149

    @LSP:

    "You have provided no reason to doubt what Rubenstein says and she has nothing to gain from being harassed or from ostracizing “innocent” boys."

    So she must be automatically believed?

    Who gets into your privileged category of 'automatically believed'? Do the young men she accused get to be 'automatically believed' should they say 'no, we didn't do it?'

    If not, why not?

  150. #150

    @Eo: I'm sorry therapists suck so much in the UK. Here in America we are taught to believe what our clients say and not invalidate them even if they are lying because there's usually a reason for that too.

  151. LeftSidePositive
    #151

    Keith:

    "I dunno. To me, this is much closer to tar-and-feather than it is to “don’t trust that guy over there he stole my bike”." WHY?!?!?! What Rubenstein said was almost EXACTLY equal to that--she said not to trust someone because of an action she asserted they committed. HOW is that different from "don't trust that guy over there he stole my bike"??? Couldn't a bike thief theoretically face violent reprisals too? It's only in the heads of people so quick to condemn her that they're spinning all these stories about what her assertion will entail, and remember none of that has actually happened, nor was it advocated in anything Rubenstein said.

    The guys here are so protective of their male privilege that they rant about anything they imagine *might* happen and are totally opposed to accountability (and let's be clear: I'm not advocating slashing tires or following or late night phone calls. I'm saying that girls would not invite him to a house party or let him drive them home). The only consequences ACTUALLY involved is that these two guys are marginally less likely to find themselves in questionable situations with girls. Why are you guys so opposed to that?

  152. LeftSidePositive
    #152

    Jeff: EXACTLY. The Tiller killers CALLED FOR HIS DEATH. Rubenstein hasn't called for anyone's death. She hasn't advocated any illegal acts. Stop trying to equate an assertion with a call to violence. You're making up a lot of shit to get there.

    Your "defense":
    1) you'd have to be *pretty fucking drunk* not to be able to tell what a rape is and what consensual sex is. She could easily have had several shots of vodka and been perfectly able to identify a passed-out or barely-involved girl being taken advantage of and/or overpowered by a man who just walked in.

    Are you seriously saying you would throw out the testimony of a witness who happened to be drunk if it was another crime? Yeah, it needs to be mentioned in court and considered, but if someone gets shot at a bar are you just not going to prosecute because the witness(es) was(were) drunk? You'd just ignore the whole thing? Wouldn't you consider *how* drunk and how able they were to describe the events and environment to assess their mental state, and figure that it's pretty fucking unlikely that someone who is able to understand and assess their surroundings is *oops* hit by the alcohol in that particular region of their memory and unable to identify a perp right in front of them?

    2) His state of mind is irrelevant. If she didn't consent, it was rape.

    3a) Just because someone got themselves drunk DOES NOT mean they consented to sex. Targeting an incapacitated person is predatory, even if you didn't give them the substances.

    3b) Too drunk to rape is only if the person physically cannot make anything happen. You are responsible for what you DO while drunk, not what happens to you. This isn't a difficult concept.

    4) If you read that and believe that the victim's "trauma" (which lasted over a month) was the result of a hangover, you're desperate to ignore rape and pretend this is no big deal.

    Your whole attitude is "we can't tell, so let's just stop there and ignore the whole thing." I call bullshit. This is a huge disservice to victims who aren't raped in broad daylight in the middle of the police station. Practically NOTHING would meet your requirements for evidence, for lots of crimes! Crimes get investigated. They get taken seriously. And even for those that can't get that kind of physical evidence (like "undetected rapists" who intentionally use psychological threats instead of force) we need to recognize that there is a serious potential danger, and women should be able to talk about those experiences without being called a lynch mob.

    So, ultimately, what is YOUR brilliant plan for guys who follow drunk girls into a room and rape them? Even in the incredibly unlikely event that that's not what happened here, it happens all the time. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?!?!?! You've shown how hard it is to get a conviction (and I agree that it's a challenge to prosecute legally, but NOT that there's actual doubt about the reality), but at the same time you're totally dead-set against using social capital to respond (nonviolently, don't give me any more shit about imagining incited violence and reprisals that have NOTHING to do with the assertions made here) and prevent these attackers from having access to other vulnerable people.

  153. #153

    @LSP:

    "The only consequences ACTUALLY involved is that these two guys are marginally less likely to find themselves in questionable situations with girls. Why are you guys so opposed to that?"

    You don't know that. Seriously. You don't. A rape charge can loose men jobs, families, friends, can get them beat up, get them raped, can end lives. There are men who have committed suicide after being falsely accused of rape.

    I don't see anyone here who doesn't have sympathy for victims of rape or who doesn't want to see justice if these two men actually committed rape. But that does not preclude recognizing the negative effects a false accusation has on those falsely accused.

  154. #154

    This absolutely could still be brought to trial. No every potential jury member is a FB friend of Rubenstein, or a reader of the feminist blogosphere.

    If the dudes tried to argue that they had been deprived of due process in court, they would not be successful. All of you who are claiming that they were deprived of such rights have no idea what you're talking about.

  155. #155

    @typhonblue

    You realize that there's only a 2-4% rate of false accusations, right?

    If these guys

  156. #156

    Accidetally clicked submit. I was saying:

    If these guys are subject to the consequences you list (it is far more likely that a woman being honest about her rape will face negatve consequences, like social ostracization) then it's their own fault for being rapists.

  157. #157

    @MissaA: Whoa. I hardly agree with typhonblue that these things will happen, (mostly based upon the fact that they seem to have loyal friends to protect them, since Rubenstein got harassed herself), but I don't believe anyone deserves to be raped or victimized, even rapists. That's really, really harsh. They should be helped so that they'll hopefully change and become assets to society.

  158. #158

    All arguments aside about whether she should have immediately gone to the police or not I'm still trying to wrap my head around the scenario of a girl eye witnessing her friend being raped and then doing absolutely nothing about it except for calling her several weeks later to see how she is doing (and then eventually posting on FB)?!

    After she walked in on the rape did the perpetrator stop and then leave or did Rubenstein exit the room while the rape continued to take place? Seems like some key pieces of this story are missing?

    from the story:

    But when she walked into her own bedroom the night of the snowstorm, she recognized what was happening. “It was re-traumatizing for me. I was trying to wrap my head around it for a month,” says Rubenstein, now 20. “It was the same weird feeling I had had a month after I was raped.”

    Weeks after the snow had melted, Rubenstein called her friend to see how she was doing. She refused to take Rubenstein’s calls, but a mutual friend informed Rubenstein that the woman was still reeling from the events of the party.

  159. LeftSidePositive
    #159

    Typhonblue--again, why are we limiting rape victims to recourse that's least likely to negatively affect THE RAPIST???

    Why is your first concern, "they could be falsely accused!!!" and not "some other girl could be raped!"?? If I tell you that someone stole my wallet, I'd be pretty confused if you just ignored my plight and focused on how sad it would be for him if I were lying. Why haven't you told off Jeff for accusing his roommate of theft?

    You hear about a rape and your mind is desperate to frame it as something false. That's fucked up, man.

    There are also a lot of men who have committed suicide after ACTUALLY murdering their partners or getting caught in child prostitution stings with condoms and toys in their possession. Should we stop doing child prostitution stings because someone got caught and then killed himself? "So and so might hypothetically commit suicide" is not a valid reason for screeching all recourse for A VICTIM OF A CRIME to tell her story and seek justice. Also, these dire consequences are all in your head--have you noticed that even on this board, a fucking hell of a lot of people are all too eager to embrace the men and vilify the girls? Have you noticed that the only person in this scenario who was ACTUALLY the victim of illegal reprisals was the GIRL, and yet you're so concerned for the *imagined* risks to the guys?

    You know what else has a lot of negative effects? Some other girl getting raped because she wasn't warned about these (or other) guys!! Some data:

    Victims of sexual assault are:

    3 times more likely to suffer from depression.

    6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.

    13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.

    26 times more likely to abuse drugs.

    4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

    So, instead of focusing your entire outlook on how the men are doing, why not think about the very serious social consequences if these rapes AREN'T openly discussed?

  160. LeftSidePositive
    #160

    Matt C: I'm honestly wondering about that myself. I am going to make an educated guess that she was reasonably unable to stop what happened or froze from shock or fear, etc., and I'd really like more detail about what happened and why she couldn't stop it. For all we know the rape may have been happening by the time she got there, or she may have actually done something to stop it. We don't know either way. I'm going to assume that those details are omitted for the privacy of the victim, but my curious nature really does want to know if she acted in a way I myself would be proud of. On the other hand, I've never been in that situation so it's not fair for me to imagine how I would act.

    (And, just think of all the 20+ kids in the Richmond rape case who saw a girl being raped and did nothing, and they had no excuse of prior trauma as far as I know. As much as it pains my faith in humanity to say it, apparently doing nothing is an all-too-common response.)

    Apparently it's called "Kitty Genovese Syndrome":

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/california.gang.rape.bystander/index.html

  161. #161

    @ LSP:

    "You hear about a rape and your mind is desperate to frame it as something false. That’s fucked up, man."

    I'm not desperate to frame it as anything. Not as a rape or as a false accusation.

    "Why haven’t you told off Jeff for accusing his roommate of theft?"

    I actually thought what Jeff did was really inappropriate as well and profoundly stupid. However theft does not carry the same stigma as a charge of rape. I've never heard of anyone being beaten to death or sodomized with a stick for having been accused of theft. Or that thieves are specifically marked in prison for killing and/or sexual assault.

    A rape accusation can be deadly.

  162. #162

    "Practically NOTHING would meet your requirements for evidence, for lots of crimes!"

    Certainly not one person's testimony under the influence. If she called immediately they could have seized fluids, fibers, other people's testimonies, etc.

    Your example of a person being shot in a bar is crap, because that would have LOADS of evidence. Bullet, discharge, smoking gun (literally), blood, video footage, testimony of several people, including sober people like the bartender designated drivers, and the testimonies of more inebriated people because they all can't hallucinate the same thing.

    For this particular case, we only have one person's testimony, and it's not even the victim's.

    "Rubenstein hasn’t called for anyone’s death. She hasn’t advocated any illegal acts. Stop trying to equate an assertion with a call to violence. You’re making up a lot of shit to get there."

    And Henry II said "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" about Thomas Becket. Maybe he was advocating for a few people to kill the priest. Maybe he just wanted him intimidated or ostracized. We won't know until somebody pulls the trigger, now will we? What does she want to happen to these boys anyway?

    "3b) Too drunk to rape is only if the person physically cannot make anything happen. You are responsible for what you DO while drunk, not what happens to you. This isn’t a difficult concept."

    What if she DOES give consent? That's an act, right? Giving permission? (Lovely image of men, BTW. Their sexual energies are always considered evil at all times. An act of force in and of itself.) Also, I'm not saying this is an ideal sexual experience, and it's not the kind I'd want. But I'm not most people. If the whole drug-induced consent rape accusation rests on whether this girl liked the way he looked in the morning, then that's not going to hold up in court, at all. And before you say it, I'm not blaming the victim. We don't know a crime even occurred here, since neither facebook lady nor the victim came forward at all.

    "4) If you read that and believe that the victim’s “trauma” (which lasted over a month) was the result of a hangover, you’re desperate to ignore rape and pretend this is no big deal."

    We have no idea what caused the trauma. Speculation is all we have. Maybe she had a bout of depression. Maybe her favorite TV show got cancelled. Maybe her dog died at home. Nobody knows for sure.

    "Your whole attitude is “we can’t tell, so let’s just stop there and ignore the whole thing.”"

    No my attitude is that we don't have enough evidence to convict anybody. Hell I'm not sure we have enough to suspect a rape even occurred.

    "Crimes get investigated. They get taken seriously."

    IF THEY ARE REPORTED. She didn't. She sat on this for 4 months. And even then she didn't report it, only choosing to shame via facebook.

    "You’ve shown how hard it is to get a conviction (and I agree that it’s a challenge to prosecute legally, but NOT that there’s actual doubt about the reality), but at the same time you’re totally dead-set against using social capital to respond (nonviolently, don’t give me any more shit about imagining incited violence and reprisals that have NOTHING to do with the assertions made here) and prevent these attackers from having access to other vulnerable people."

    Because rumor-mongering gets no results. Justice will not be achieved for anybody. And as for my "brilliant plan," I choose to stick to traditional courts. They aren't perfect but it's a better system than just spreading rumors and hoping 3.5 billion people in the world will unanimously decide that the rumor is true and deny them dates or something. And if convicted rape/murderers can find dates or even wives, it seems like this exercise is completely pointless. I'm all for therapy, airing emotional baggage (both my parents are Master's Level Psychologists, I basically have to.) and such, but you can't do that via facebook with strangers. Using "social justice" to get retribution for crimes that may or my not have even occurred is the heart of lynch mob justice.

    "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?!?!?!"

    Do you seriously want me to come up with a new justice system, right now, that is predicated on "guilty until proven innocent?" and includes devastating social penalties for people even suspected of crimes?

  163. #163

    "Why haven’t you told off Jeff for accusing his roommate of theft?"

    Now hey for the record, I never accused him of theft. I just knew he did it because he's the only guy who had access to my room. And I did have small discussions with my family and my online buddies in a different state/country about how I "KNEW" he did it and it logically made sense, but since I had no proof other than my obviously newly formed hostile relationship with my roommate, he basically got away with it. And I hated it, but what could I do? I wasn't going to start an internet forum about it. And since he had way more friends than me, I had no "social capital" to spend on accusing him of stealing something. In fact that would backfire greatly and I'd be ostracized instead of him.

    This is why social justice in lieu of legitimate justice is a horrible system. IT doesn't work, it turns victims into culprits and then sometimes penalizes them for even reporting it. In some ways it's similar to the worst aspects of our current justice system, except that evidence is replaced by mob rule and conjecture.

  164. #164

    @AmericaninJapan: Disagreeing with a particular action does not constitute minimizing female victims, nor does acknowledging male victims. I disagree with actions like Rubenstein's when done by male victims, so my response is not gender-specific.

    @LeftSidePositive: The only applicable example you offered was telling on another student. Yes, I did so on a few occasions to those in authority, i.e. teachers, principals, or deans, not other students in the hopes the students would shame or take retribution on the other child.

  165. #165

    Kristina

    We werent talking about UK abuse therapy v's US.

    You are framing the issues that male victims face in coming forward through the feminist lens. You blamed the men themselves, the patriarchy and masculinity , non political research points to an abuse industry that operates on patriarchal abuse theory, which is a theory that stereotypes abusers and victims by gender and blames gender socialisation and ze patriarachy for most if not all abuse. In patriarchal abuse theory, male victims of women dont really exist, so they cant come forward if they dont exist now cant they?

  166. Michael Hatfield
    #166

    Of course you know whats better then calling someone a rapist on the internet? Going to the police and filing a police report, that might actually result in a dangerous rapist being taken off the street......

  167. #167

    MissA wrote: "If these guys are subject to the consequences you list (it is far more likely that a woman being honest about her rape will face negatve consequences, like social ostracization) then it’s their own fault for being rapists."

    Well yeah. But the problem is what if they weren't rapists? This is a hard debate to have here since everyone's all jazzed up on rape apology / fighting the patriarchy, but my point was that there's a difference between telling 30 of your closest friends to stay away from some shady people and accusing, however correctly or falsely, and whether meant to incite vigilantism or not, people of heinous crimes to an audience of 980 people in a forum where that information is essentially never forgotten.

    My point about "that guy stole my bike" was that that was NOT a heinous crime. It's not likely to invite violence, rejection, creepy late night phone calls, etc. Have any of you guys heard what happens to people who get screwed over by the anonymous users of 4chan? Look up what happens when they decide to really fuck someone's life up. It's happened to people who probably deserved it (people posting picture of them sexually abusing animals) and people who didn't (the girl who posted pictures pleasuring herself with an iPod; google 'iChan' on encyclopaedia dramatica, not at work please). They get 20 pizzas delivered to the house for weeks, calls at all hours of the night, police called for strange charges, their parents get phoned and harassed at work. It goes on and on. It's internet bullying at it's finest.

    Thankfully Rubenstein neither asked for, nor led such a response. Hell, she might have even prevented some future rape because people were avoiding the two dudes, which is good. But I think this combination of large audience, low accountability (is anyone REALLY friends with 980 people? more like acquantiances, hey I saw you at that party stuff) can quickly snowball into making someone's life awful, and with very little evidence or provocation. It might be delicious when it happens to the bad guys, but I think it's still just... inappropriate.

  168. #168

    I think there's two arguments going here. Mine has nothing to do with rape, but with the response Rubenstein took. I tried to frame it as someone accusing a parent of leaving their child in a hot car with a pitbull (which sounds pretty bad, right?) to ask if you'd still think "Post on FB" was a good response, as well as what the consequences would be if said person was a GREAT parent, and never did such a thing, but someone posts that on FB anyway. And it keeps coming back to "but but RAPE".

    So what was the point of Amanda posting this story? I'm not inclined to disbelieve Rubenstein, so yes, there's two rapists the police may/may not be looking for. But that's like any other Friday story you'd read here on the rapeblog (1. woman gets raped 2. wow thats messed up 3. hateration holleration). I'd like to think Amanda posted this so people would think about Rubenstein's RESPONSE (read the title), right (with some "what do you do when you witness a crime you've experienced before" thrown in)? Why is everyone hung up on the same "you're defending the rapists" "you're marginalizing men" circular hatefest that happens on EVERY OTHER RAPE POST HERE?

    Thank you Kristina and Eo for at least having a different go-nowhere argument.

    Ok it's outta my system =)

  169. #169

    Eo: I am in school pursuing a degree in order to become a licensed counselor. I am framing my response through a counseling and rehabilitation lens. Your points don't even have anything to do with my original point, which is that society inherently discourages men from reporting these types of crimes. Stop being ridiculous. And stop attempting to disprove my American-based knowledge of therapeutic treatment with U.K.-based treatment. They are not one in the same.

  170. Michael Hatfield
    #170

    "I have a friend who was raped before the age of Facebook, and she responded similarly. She knew what women who make rape accusations go through in the legal system. Furthermore this guy was a friend of hers, staying the night in the house that she shared with three other people, and simply slipped into her bedroom, where she was sleeping, one night after a party. So all the factors that typically call into question a rape victim’s testimony were present: he was an acquaintance whom she had welcomed into her home, and there was alcohol involved."

    Even if you can't win a conviction that rape charge will sit in his file and if he ever gets busted again he's screwed.

  171. #171

    @Keith: It seems to be me vs several other people, and I'm not quite sure why, considering I'm actually standing up for the rights of men who are victimized. Since that is the case and they keep arguing with no point in mind, yeah, it's pretty much a go-nowhere argument. Although, with Eo, any argument is go-nowhere because he or she focuses solely on the words draconian and "vigilanteism" [sic] and how feminists are automatically pushing down men. I plan on working solely with men, (because of the fact that so few women are convicted of sex crimes and therefore so few are incarcerated), so I really don't like it being insinuated that I hate men...

  172. #172

    Kristina

    Feminist political counselling is not "american-based knowledge", its politics base knowlege.

    You are on campus, tell men about the resources available to male victims, show me the posters that dont stereotype the abusers as male and the victims as female.

    In america you have the VAWA and primary aggressor laws, american victim support leglislation is more anti-male victim than the UK.

    The male socialisation IS a factor, one thats exagerated by feminist stereotyping of abuse victims as women and running th abuse industry accordingly.

  173. #173

    I work at a DV and SA agency. I am an advocate for primary and secondary victims of domestic and sexual violence. This agency caters to men, women, and children. I've seen posters and other publications depicting men as both perpetrators and victims. I've also seen the same with women. we are constantly re-evaluating how we can get more men to feel comfortable with reporting their crimes. It would be nice to have men and women working together to end domestic and sexual violence.

  174. #174

    Joliska

    Have you got a link to any material that acknowledges the female abuser and her victims?

  175. LeftSidePositive
    #175

    Jeff:

    Alright, the bar was a bad example. Say you saw someone steal a purse on an otherwise empty street corner, you knew & recognized the person who did it, but you had just left the bar (in your condition, you could probably do long division but couldn't drive). You provide a detailed report of what you saw that matches up with all available (albeit limited) other evidence. Should your testimony carry no weight?

    That Thomas Becket quote was profoundly stupid. Really. Just admit you're making up this threat of violence where none exists in order to silence this woman. It's bullshit. Unless you can ACTUALLY show that she did or said something to directly incite violence, respect her right to free speech (you can criticize, of course, but stop pretending it's equivalent to rabble-rousing). Hey, the Beatles wrote "Helter Skelter"--shall we hold them responsible for Charles Manson?!

    Consent is not an action. Consent is agreement that you MUST be in sound mind to give. If she ACTIVELY pulled his pants down and ACTIVELY shoved his dick in her pussy, then she'd be responsible, but lying passively (I assume) and taking a sex act is not in any way an action. And, "whether she liked how he looked in the morning" is pure, TOTAL rape apologism. Consent has to be given AT THE TIME THE SEX HAPPENS, and if a person is not able to consent at that time, you may not under any circumstances have sex with them. Period.

    Um, you idiot--did you read what the victim told Rubenstein about the Facebook page and how she might want to come forward if others did? She was pretty clear what caused the trauma. That you're pretending this is somehow confusing just shows that you don't care about rape victims and you'll make up any stupid (and this is amazingly stupid) excuse to try to pretend it doesn't matter.

    Yes, in a perfect world she should have reported it. BUT a great many victims are too scared, too full of denial and too ashamed to go to the police. I really wish that weren't the case, but it's too common to just ignore those people who couldn't gather the courage to go to the police. Rapists thrive on making their victims feel helpless and worthless. I really hope you never have to go through having a friend or family member be raped and know firsthand how much trauma victims go through in reporting. BUT I hope you actually read some survivor's stories and try to empathize. Should this rapist face no consequences because he successfully intimidated and traumatized two people for a month? That's ridiculous.

    I'm not advocating Facebook in the absence of the legal system, but we also need to recognize that the legal system has failed a lot of victims. In this case, you and I both know that what happened in this case is extremely unlikely to go to court. So, we're not talking social consequences "in lieu of legitimate justice." I don't think Facebook is a better system than the courts, but you yourself have shown why this case could never get justice in court. So, it's totally disingenuous to talk about this as "Facebook vs. legitimate justice." The correct interpretation would be "Facebook vs. NOTHING," and this certainly beats the hell out of nothing! Ideally, it should probably be "Facebook AND legitimate justice" as long as the justice system takes so long and universities are reluctant to pursue their own action. By alerting other potential victims, one can do a lot to keep other people safe (which, legally, universities are required to do, but it doesn't always happen!) and take away the rapist's "social license to operate."

  176. #176

    LSP, please stop calling me an idiot and saying I don't think rape victims deserve justice or something.

    "Should this rapist face no consequences because he successfully intimidated and traumatized two people for a month?"

    Have we established this person is a rapist? All I've seen is accusation without evidence.

    "And, “whether she liked how he looked in the morning” is pure, TOTAL rape apologism."

    I disagree. Consider that, several times the police are called out for any given crime. There have been times where people have called in the police tom report stolen property, when they hid the items in the garage in order to cam insurance companies. There have been times when assaulters called the police to press charges against their assault victim for defending himself. There have been times when murderers have called the police to report their own murders and even talk to them as a witness to their own crime. Or sometimes they pin it on a random black person, like Susan Smith. Lawsuits have been filed by burglars against their victims and WON.

    This is why the police have a a small bit of suspicion whenever they respond to any crime, including rape. People have cried wolf. Who knows if this woman consented or not? Who even knows if she was drunk or not? Because facebook lady and the victim waited so long, all the evidence went away. So it's back to "he said, she sad." Except we don't even have the other side of the story. So it's just rumors, gossip, and accusation.

    "Ideally, it should probably be “Facebook AND legitimate justice”"

    Absolutely not. Trying to court public opinion is the worst way in the world to convict anybody. If the jury pool gets wind of it, the judge might declare a mistrial and it'll be months before he can be tried again. And, like in the 4 month delay for this rape accusation, memories fade, evidence disappears, and justice becomes impossible. This is what happens in trials with signed confessions by killers and ironclad evidence. I will take "innocent until proven guilty" to my grave and not lose one whit of sleep over it.

  177. #177

    Joliska---

    What are some ways you and your staff have been successful in getting more men to come forward and access services? It's been my experience that men are frequently loathe to admit to being D/V victims, and are, as you mention, uncomfortable reporting (are you saying "their crimes" as in ones the men themselves have committed or ones perpetrated against them? I initially read it as those committed against them, but now I'm not entirely sure). Thanks

  178. #178

    back in the day before we had facebook, at our college we wrote the names of sexual assaulters and rapists on the stalls in the student center women's bathrooms. a little less public than facebook, to be sure, and anonymous, but I still think it's a great tactic. even should a false accusation happen, no one is getting arrested, they may just find themselves short of conquests. in a situation like rape where women cannot count on police and hospitals and courtrooms to respond to them supportively, hell yes, doing this to even the odds is ON.

  179. #179

    besides which, it's a pretty simple calculation to make. what happens more often, rape, or false accusations of rape? rape. end of story. when men stop raping, men will stop being accused of rape.

  180. #180

    furthermore, I think the men arguing against this tactic on this thread should stop to consider that this is a nonviolent response to a violent act. be glad castration isn't the go-to tactic. after millennia of rape and patriarchal oppression, it is ENOUGH already. become an ally. patrol your male peers and make sure they're not raping people, don't try to silence women who are nonviolently trying to protect each other.

  181. #181

    I liked this statement enough I wanted to see it again...

    "don’t try to silence women who are nonviolently trying to protect each other"

  182. #182

    Samantha

    one town, one airforce and two college studies showed a false reporting rate of 50% and anyway, men dont rape, rapists rape, rapists come in both genders and neither men nor rapists are responsible for false accusers.

  183. #183

    Because such things never happen, right?

    http://www.canada.com/theprovince/story.html?id=da68c746-7de4-4f0b-b168-5c3ea87ab495

    I hope and pray someone makes those little monsters lives very miserable.

  184. #184

    @Kristina: Pursuing a degree is not the same as actually counseling male victims. As an advocate for abused males I can say that you posted inaccurate information about male victims, female sex offenders, and the impact of sexual abuse on male victims. The one study you linked to was seventeen years old. I hope you did not only read outdated materials. On my blog I link to several studies and articles that present more accurate and current information about the above topics.

    @LeftSidePositive: On my blog I posted about the fallout from state child abuser databases. The databases list individuals accused of physical child abuse. The information is not accessible to the public, only to schools, nurseries, or potential employers. The problem is that a person can get listed without a conviction or a charge. Anyone can call a child abuse hotline and have someone placed on the registry. Once on the list, it takes years for the falsely accused to get their names removed. These false accusations occurs under a state-run program that has (or should have) some level of oversight. Imagine what would occur if the general public did this, as Rubenstein did and as you seem to advocate.

  185. #185

    @squirrely girl: We do not know that the response has been non-violent. We only know what Rubenstein told Hess, and it is highly doubtful that Rubenstein checked to see if anyone threatened or harassed the men she accused or that she would tell Hess if such acts occurred.

  186. #186

    I have no links. an example for reaching male victims of sexual violence: we had a male guest speaker at an event who told of his sexual assault. We also have been able to get a few male volunteers, but other than that, not many seem interested in volunteering. Unfortunately, not many men have come forward, but we are working towards helping all people who are victims of sexual violence. I think it is helpful to have even just one male victim who is willing to speak out, because than others might feel empowered to speak out as well.

  187. #187

    Keith B

    I said..

    “all the resources, services and funding is based on the patriarchal abuse lie”

    You said..

    "That’s going a bit far don’t you think, Eo? I don’t like arguing if something is/isn’t based on the patriarchy, but I’m rather of the impression that there’s much more violent / date / acquaintance rape committed by men on women than any of the other permutations of m/f sexual assault. Are you saying this isn’t the case? (Can you point us to credible a URL?)"

    I posted URLs to credible studies for you but they were censored. The reason you think that men raping women is the by far the most common kind of esxual assualt is that feminists only collect victimisation of women by men (they do this with child abuse and domestic violence too). When similar questions are asked of men and lesbians about female instigated sexaul assaults and rape we see parity emerging.

    Ill post just the abstracts this time. C/P and search to see the studies themselves.

    "Men's Reports of Nonconsensual Sexual Interactions with Women: Prevalence and Impact
    Department of Psychology, University of Potsdam, Potsdam, Germany
    Published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior

    Two studies examined the prevalence and emotional impact of men's nonconsensual sexual interactions with women. The first study included a sample of 247 heterosexual men with a mean age of 18.3 years. The second study was a replication with a sample of 153 heterosexual men with a mean age of 22.3 years. All respondents completed a measure of nonconsensual sexual interactions including the use of three aggressive strategies (physical force, exploitation of the man's incapacitated state, and verbal pressure) and three forms of unwanted sexual contact (kissing/petting, sexual intercourse, and oral sex). In addition, the relationship to the female initiator was explored. For each type of nonconsensual sexual interaction, respondents indicated the affective impact of the experience. In Study 1, 25.1% of respondents reported at least one incident of nonconsensual sex with a woman and 23.9% reported attempts by women to make them engage in nonconsensual sexual activity. In Study 2, the overall prevalence rate for completed nonconsensual sexual interactions was 30.1%, and 23.5% of the men reported attempts at making them engage in nonconsensual sex. In both samples, exploiting the man's inability to offer resistance was the most frequently reported aggressive strategy. Kissing/petting was the most frequently reported unwanted sexual activity, followed by sexual intercourse and oral sex. Prevalence rates were higher for nonconsensual sex with an (ex-)partner or friend than for nonconsensual sex with an unknown women. Ratings of affective impact revealed that men rated their nonconsensual experiences as moderately upsetting. The findings are discussed in the light of previous studies on men's unwanted sexual experiences and the extant literature on women's nonconsensual sexual interactions with men. - from here

    ------

    Predictors of Sexual Coercion Against Women and Men: A Multilevel, Multinational Study of University Students

    Several explanations have been forwarded to account for sexual coercion in romantic relationships. Feminist theory states that sexual coercion is the result of male dominance over women and the need to maintain that dominance; however, studies showing that women sexually coerce men point towards weaknesses in that theory. Some researchers have, therefore, suggested that it is the extent to which people view the other gender as hostile that influences these rates. Furthermore, much research suggests that a history of childhood sexual abuse is a strong risk factor for later sexual victimization in relationships. Few researchers have empirically evaluated the first two explanations and little is known about whether sexual revictimization operates for men or across cultures. In this study, hierarchical linear modeling was used to investigate whether the status of women and adversarial sexual beliefs predicted differences in sexual coercion across 38 sites from around the world, and whether sexual revictimization operated across genders and cultures. Participants included 7,667 university students from 38 sites. Results showed that the relative status of women at each site predicted significant differences in levels of sexual victimization for men, in that the greater the status of women, the higher the level of forced sex against men. In addition, differences in adversarial sexual beliefs across sites significantly predicted both forced and verbal sexual coercion for both genders, such that greater levels of hostility towards women at a site predicted higher levels of forced and verbal coercion against women and greater levels of hostility towards men at a site predicted higher levels of forced and verbal coercion against men. Finally, sexual revictimization occurred for both genders and across all sites, suggesting that sexual revictimization is a cross-gender, cross-cultural phenomenon. Results are discussed in terms of their contributions to the literature, limitations of the current study, and suggestions for future research.

    (3% of men reported forced sex (of which 2.1% was forced vaginal sex... this is in fact men reporting victimization by women)
    22% of men reported verbal sexual coercion

    By comparison, in the same study it was found that:
    2.3% of women reported forced sex (don't ignore the decimal point)
    25% of women reported verbal sexual coercion )

  188. #188

    Ok, so... I still say Rubenstein going to the police, without clearing it with the victim would have been wrong. It would be great if all victims went to the police. It would be great if all rape cases were taken seriously by the police. It would be great if we didn't have 100s of thousands of rape kits sitting around untested. It would be great if the act of going to the police wasn't itself a violating, humiliating and terrible experience.

    Reporting is something the actual victim of an assault will hopefully do. But considering what rape survivors go through in dealing with the police, I personally wouldn't make that choice for someone else.

    So, as for the missing bit of the story, I agree, something is missing. Something happened there. We can hypothesize all sorts of things. We don't know.

    But for some reason she didn't go to the police right away. And she didn't stay in contact with the victim. By the time she decided to act, for whatever reason, any rape that did/didn't occur had an exactly 0% chance of conviction. So, again, by the time she acted, by the time she got the courage, or unfroze, or whatever, it was too late for informing the police to have -any- affect at all.

    So saying she should have gone to the police, fine, she might have been better going to the police immediately. She could have stayed and helped her friend, brought her to the ER. But apparently, she didn't. For froze, she panicked, something. And by the time she felt she could act, there was nothing she could do. The rapists had already won.

    So it does come down to FB or nothing. I think what she did was great. Sure, it's possible that if this catches on, some false accusations will occur. There are bad people out there, women as well as men. Some people will make false accusations, for whatever reason. Doing so is against the law, but it's also remarkably hard to prove, so I imagine the conviction rate would be low. Because the burden would then be on the accused to prove they -didn't- rape, which would be about as hard as proving one was raped. Imagine that.

    But really, all these 'deserve a fair trial' notions are ridiculous. No one is guaranteed a fair trial in the court of public opinion. Nor is this mob mentality, nor lynching. She isn't calling for their blood. She's making a statement, publicly accusing them of an unprovable crime. People do this all the time. Maybe they didn't do it, maybe they did. If they did, this action was laudable. If not, it was awful. Either way, it has nothing to do with any right to a fair trial.

  189. #189

    @Toysoldier: My degree program includes an externship, during which I actually counsel clients. I also speak on a daily basis with those who work in various related fields about forensic counseling matters, often including victimization of one form or another. I offered the first study that popped up. As I am not required to do a thesis for my degree, the research I do tends to be tailored to very specific topics for term papers and the like. Normally I go through my school's library database, which cannot be accessed by everyone, so excuse me for using an easy way to demonstrate my point quickly and easily to faceless, nameless trolls. I've little to no desire to spend my time compiling a meta-analysis for people who are merely attempting to get a rise out of me by twisting my words and accusing me of hating men. I have things to do, like a job, a life, and school, where I learn to hate the men I want to treat with big words and fancy research articles from too long ago to be of use, according to the all-knowing trolls haunting this comments section.

  190. #190

    Just a heads up - the study Eo is trotting out in an irrelevant context AGAIN (Predictors of Sexual Coercion Against Women and Men: A Multilevel, Multinational Study of University Students) has already been dissected at least once in the comments on this site. Everybody SHOULD take his advice and actually READ each and every study that gets posted here as "evidence" (to be completely fair, not just Eo's but everybody for that matter) rather than just taking people's "word" that the study found/means what they said it found/means. Reading... it's fundamental!

    Toysoldier - True, we do NOT know that the response has been non-violent... we also do NOT know that the response has been violent... crazy how that reasoning works BOTH ways, eh? At any rate, I was more referencing HER action, not the potential actions of others. If we use that reasoning, one could assume that reporting the crime to the police could also result in violent responses on the part of others. See where I'm going with this?

  191. #191

    Wait a minute here. The story says that Chloe Rubenstein watched this guy go into her bedroom with this girl and she watched him rape her. Yet she did nothing. WTF?

    Thats totally fucked up. I have a daugher, and thanks to these other women who refuse to report/prosecute these crimes, you are putting my daughter at risk from these assholes.

    Women, when you are subject to a crime like rape, its not about you anymore. You dont get the luxury to walk away and pretend like nothign happened. By doing so, you GUARANTEE that rapists will be free to come into contact with unsuspecting women like my daughter. YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY HERE. I'm sorry this happened to you, but once it does, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for doing what you can to stop it. Yes, the police might not believe you. Yes, the prosecutor might refuse to bring a case. Yes, people will call you liars. But you have the DUTY to prosecute this as much as possible. By not doing so, you CONDEMN other women to future rapes.

    Once you are raped, its time to stop thinking just about yourself and think about all the hundreds and thousands of other women who these rapists will encounter in their lifetime.

  192. #192

    Squirrly girl

    There was no such disection, you are in w/s so you will only be shown studies that conform to a certain ideological POV, you and others like you will supress information that doesnt conform to they same ideological POV, you will excuse and protect the female abuser and make her victims invisible. Those studies are the tip of the iceberg, there are more to come.

    If you were being shown non-political studies that arent outdated, gynocentric or skewed you'd know that Lisak believes that men have been sexually abuses at a rate of 1 in 6.

  193. #193

    So long as feminists keep hiding female abusers and their victims this -

    "Some of the long-term effects of sexual abuse are related to the development of gender identity. A number of clinicians' case studies indicate that male survivors of childhood sexual abuse may experience:

    * Attempts to "prove" their masculinity by having multiple female sexual partners, sexually victimizing others, and/or engaging in dangerous or violent behaviors"
    Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Lew 1988.

    will continue to happen.

  194. #194

    That research is as old as I am, Eo. Suggesting that gender identity issues are caused by abuse is homophobic and transphobic and now frowned upon by the counseling community. Do you understand anything? At all? Ever? None of the dreadful feminists commenting here are condoning male abuse or minimizing the prevalence of female abusers. Yet you keep insisting that we are. I'm pretty sure you're the one being blinded by your already-ingrained "POV" of feminism.

  195. #195

    Wait a minute, Janet Smith. Have you ever been the victim of a sexual assault? What happens if your daughter is the victim of one someday? Are you going to force her to report it? Are you going to sit around while she is harrassed, abused, and violated over and over by the community, friends, family, and authorities, after the rape? Are you going to lay the blame of thousands of potential rapes on her, if she is unable to do what YOU want her to do?
    I have daughters as well. And I am doing what I can to protect them, by teaching them that they ARE NOT to blame if they are sexually assaulted or if another is sexually assaulted, and by working to change the community around them, so that victims of sexual assault will be able to report their crime without further trauma. I am all for people taking responsibility, but when a sexual assault crime is committed, society doesn't expect the rapist to take responsibility, however, they demand that the victim take responsibility instead.
    It would be a wonderful thing if victims of sexual assault could report what has happened to them. And they should be able to. But you have missed a huge and important step, in that society has to change in order to enable the victims to be able to report to the authorities. Why should a victim who is raped be forced into reporting when they might be raped again by the messed up justice system that is in place? Why not make it safe to report the crime, before demanding and trying to force a victim to submit to your wishes?

  196. #196

    @Kristina: I do not care about your opinions of men. I do care that you presented misinformation about male victims. I am part of the group you claim you want to help, so if you want to me to believe you are concerned you should save the sarcasm for someone else. Your claims are inaccurate. Rather than assert your ideological perspective, you should read the available non-feminist research, as it contradicts your claims about male victims and the impact of sexual abuse on victims' gender identity and sexual orientation.

    @squirrely girl: It is not crazy how it works both ways. It is called logic. We do not know what Rubenstein has or has not done. All we have is a second-hand account of what she told another person, in which one or both parties may have withheld information. One can assume any number of things, but those are assumptions, not facts. Yes, reporting a crime to the police could result in a violent response. Just because different actions can have similar outcome does not mean they are both good choices.

  197. #197

    Kristina

    "That research is as old as I am, Eo. Suggesting that gender identity issues are caused by abuse is homophobic and transphobic and now frowned upon by the counseling community. Do you understand anything? At all? Ever? None of the dreadful feminists commenting here are condoning male abuse or minimizing the prevalence of female abusers. Yet you keep insisting that we are. I’m pretty sure you’re the one being blinded by your already-ingrained “POV” of feminism".

    Kristina, poltical correctness does not rule over research outside of the feminist community, thats why non political research tells a different story to feminist research.

    Feminists promote abuse as being gendered, this blog promotes abuse as being gendered day in day out, the contributers promote use as gendered and work to suppress information that contradicts the politically correct pov.

    You Kristina admitted that you were being taught that the problem for male victims is themselves, masculinity and patriarchy...this is nothing but the feminist agenda wrapped up in politically correct pseudoscience and activism masquerading as research.

  198. #198

    "Feminists promote abuse as being gendered, this blog promotes abuse as being gendered day in day out, the contributers promote use as gendered and work to suppress information that contradicts the politically correct pov."

    Exactly.

    Evidence exists that women sexually violate men at similar rates as the reverse. Let's say it again. Evidence exists that women sexually violate men at similar rates as the reverse.

    That's a datapoint towards equality; namely that women have just as dark a dark side as men. If the feminists here were really about proving 'equality' and not maintaining traditional gender concepts, they'd be embracing these statistic and if they cared about male victims they would be rushing to shout these statistics far and wide.

    One of the most common things I've heard from male victims is the relief they feel to learn they aren't alone. That alone is a huge help to them on the road to recovery. Feminists aren't looking for statistics that help male victims know they aren't alone; in fact they are ignoring and/or denying them when they come across them(just as squirrlygirl confessed to.)

    Imagine that. Imagine being a feminist whose talking to a group of people about rape and trotting out the whole 95% of victims are women when she knows that there is evidence it isn't true(or at least a strong possibility it isn't). Or she hasn't even bothered to research anything counter to her ideology. Imagine what that must feel like to the (many) male victims in her audience who are simultaneously being told they're rare as unicorns and also that they(men) are really responsible for rape in a way that women could never be. They(male victims) are responsible for rape in a way that their rapists(women) are not.

    Now add, on top of all that, let's add another dash of victim blaming, 'men's patriarchal thinking is why men aren't coming forward about their victimization.'

    This is sick behavior. And people wonder why I, a queer, progressive, college educated woman don't identify as feminist. I'm your target market and yet... I just can't stomach the thought of being lumped in with the likes of you.

  199. #199

    Self quoteage:

    "Now add, on top of all that, let’s add another dash of victim blaming, ‘men’s patriarchal thinking is why men aren’t coming forward about their victimization.’"

    Why is this victim-blaming? Because implicit in the word 'patriarchy' is a system of social norms that men perpetuate for their own benefit. So when you say to a male victim that his 'patriarchal programming' is the reason why he doesn't come forward you are saying, in essence:

    "You are the beneficiary of a system that unjustly privileges your sex, a side-effect of which is that you are humiliated when you feel disempowered by the 'weaker' sex. Which is why you're not able to confess to being a victim of rape by a woman. You are silenced by your own privilege! What delicious irony! Er... I mean, how unfortunate for you that you support a system that benefits you greatly yet isn't helping you in this instance. Why not stop being your own worst enemy?'

    It also carries a wonderful connotation of: "If you'd just think the right way(our way) then you wouldn't be suffering so much."

    I imagine male rape victims just love to hear stuff like this. Considering that rape is something that can completely dominate a person's experience of self, safety and human intimacy--dominate their life, in other words--I'm sure it's wonderful for them to be reminded that their 'privileges' always eclipse whatever trauma they experience. And are usually the reason why half their trauma exists in the first place.

    Maybe a male rape victim would rather trade being able to access the sympathy, services and visibility that female rape victims have for the .01% greater chance that he might end up a CEO or a President.

    I wonder if anyone's ever asked male rape victims that question.

  200. #200

    If anyone's interested, the following is an email exchange between myself and Amanda Hess, the author of this piece.

    Hi Amanda,

    Re your piece "De-Friendly Fire": I don't quite understand what happened when Chloe followed that guy into her bedroom as he was following another woman in there. Your second paragraph concludes, "Five minutes later, the new guy followed. Rubenstein noticed and followed him in." OK, so what happened after that? Did he rape both of them? Did she do anything to prevent him from raping the other woman? What exactly went down in the bedroom? Unless I'm missing something, just what happened is not made clear.

    Thanks,

    Wayne

    Sorry, but I'm not interested in providing you a play-by-play of someone's rape experience.

    Amanda

    That's inappropriate on your part. I didn't mean it like that. No one is asking for details. I just thought the piece lacked an explanation of what brought her to the realization that something happened that needed to be addressed. To simply say three people were in a room and leave it at that seems guaranteed to result in a lot of head-scratching.

    Then, six hours later:

    I gather from your silence you would have us believe this woman walked into her bedroom and witnessed a rape and did nothing to try to prevent it. I sure hope she had some popcorn to keep her from being bored. And oh yeah, we're also supposed to believe this man continued to commit rape while he had an audience sitting or standing there watching him.

    You're REAL qualified to be a journalist.

    --

  201. #201

    typhonblue May 9th, 2010 1:30 pm
    #198

    Evidence exists that women sexually violate men at similar rates as the reverse. Let’s say it again. Evidence exists that women sexually violate men at similar rates as the reverse.

    That evidence only exists in the delusional minds of whiny-ass MRAs, not in the real world under the yellow sun.

  202. #202

    Snobographer:

    "That evidence only exists in the delusional minds of whiny-ass MRAs, not in the real world under the yellow sun."

    *Sigh* Exactly.

    No matter how many studies published in peer reviewed journals anyone produces, this will be the response.

    Feminists don't care about male victims. They just don't.

  203. #203

    @Toysoldier

    "It is not crazy how it works both ways. It is called logic." I know... that's why I wrote it. :)

    "Just because different actions can have similar outcome does not mean they are both good choices."

    Fair enough :) Like I said in an earlier post, I'm still torn on this type of response... mostly because we haven't really seen the outcome of such actions yet. I AM interested to see how this all plays out though...

  204. #204

    Snobographer

    Your last comments are wilful innorance and hate on your part.

    This girl is calling for vigilante action, “take them down”.

    Most of the respondands on the thread and the thread author are in favour of this.

    Feminists with their lynch mob attitude, delusions of moral supremacy, denial of victims of female abusers and support for reducing civil rights are the new fascist left.

  205. #205

    "Feminists don’t care about male victims. They just don’t."

    And if anyone has the temerity to suggest that feminists should be more attuned to the issues of men, the belittling and dismissive phrase "what about teh menz?" is the inevitable response.

    Feminists bat for team vagina, it's as simple as that. If the feminist ideology really cared about both genders, it wouldn't be called "feminism".

  206. #206

    @ Zammo:

    "Feminists bat for team vagina, it’s as simple as that."

    And that's fine, even if that kind of one sided advocacy is not something I want to be apart of. But feminists will simultaneously 'bat for team vagina' and hold out that they also are the next best thing for men.

    I'm beginning to wonder if simplistic analysis of reality like 'it's all the patriarchy's(men's) fault' or 'the jews are behind it all' or 'immigrants are destroying our country*' really only appeal to people who have a shallow understanding of human nature and little empathy.

    The similarity between the patriarchal conspiracy theorists and the Jewish conspiracy theorists is particularly interesting. You could say a lot of the same things about men as you can about Jewish people: compared to gentiles they make more money, often occupy proportionately more powerful positions in media and in the corporate world.

    And then some people draw from these simple observations that they rule the world to their own nefarious ends. Except that, just like Asian people, Jewish people put a strong emphasis on family and inter-generational support. Cultures that do that tend to get ahead and that explains why, natch, Jewish people tend to get ahead.

    Instead of looking for a simple, down-to-earth explanation, conspiracy theorists always reach for the deepest, darkest, most sinister reason for why their hated group of choice has something they don't/does something they don't like/is oppressing them.

  207. #207

    @ Manny

    When the police, and society, treat victims with respect, women will willingly and eagerly go to the cops when they are assaulted.

    Until then, women should use every means of humiliation to keep boys in line. This girl did a great thing. If the accused boy wanted to defend himself, he could come forward and do so.

  208. #208

    "Instead of looking for a simple, down-to-earth explanation, conspiracy theorists always reach for the deepest, darkest, most sinister reason for why their hated group of choice has something they don’t/does something they don’t like/is oppressing them."

    Having missed all the really important and highly secretive Patriarchy meetings, the overwhelmingly vast number of ordinary guys do not get promoted to CEO, are not given cushy corner office jobs, and don't get a place at the male privilege buffet. So, they toil away at difficult and often dangerous jobs to do oppressive things like put food on the table, pay for mortgages, and try to avoid going to jail when child support payments fall behind.

  209. #209

    @ JJer:

    "When the police, and society, treat victims with respect, women will willingly and eagerly go to the cops when they are assaulted."

    And when you stop equating woman with victim, the world will be a much fairer place for all.

    "Until then, women should use every means of humiliation to keep boys in line."

    What gives women the right* to do this? Do men get to use every means of humiliation to keep _girls_ in line?

    * Even more interesting, what gave women the _power_ to do this in the first place?

  210. #210

    "Until then, women should use every means of humiliation to keep boys in line. This girl did a great thing. If the accused boy wanted to defend himself, he could come forward and do so."

    Guilty until proven innocent?

  211. #211

    A MAJOR key piece of this story is obviously missing about what happened when Rubenstein walked into the room where the rape was taking place. I don't think anyone needs graphic "play by play" details but it is rather strange/suspicious that the story glosses over to several weeks later when she called her friend to see how she was doing.

    So we are left to assume that she let her friend continue to be raped right in front of her and did nothing but call her weeks later? That would be pretty fucked up and cowardly of her if thats the case (which I hope it's not). Thats why an explanation of this part of the story is necessary whatever it may be, otherwise we are basically left to believe she witnessed this rape and did nothing to help her friend except for posting on FB weeks later?

    I personally believe that this section of the story was omitted either because the author does not know the details of this part of the story or if she does they conflict with the angle of the story she was attempting to write. If these details emerged perhaps the "Bad Guy" who was smeared on FB might not look so guilty (whether he is or not is another matter).

    from the story:

    But when she walked into her own bedroom the night of the snowstorm, she recognized what was happening. “It was re-traumatizing for me. I was trying to wrap my head around it for a month,” says Rubenstein, now 20. “It was the same weird feeling I had had a month after I was raped.”

    Weeks after the snow had melted, Rubenstein called her friend to see how she was doing. She refused to take Rubenstein’s calls, but a mutual friend informed Rubenstein that the woman was still reeling from the events of the party.

  212. #212

    @JJer---- I hope you sober up, read this and wince:
    "Until then, women should use every means of humiliation to keep boys in line. This girl did a great thing. If the accused boy wanted to defend himself, he could come forward and do so."

    Are you honestly saying that women have the right to make allegations of any sort using any vehicle,any means necessary, any forum, to make them and that, basically, tough shit if the boy doesnt like it? Really?

    SO you wont be pissed then when I go to MY facebook, lnk this page and post about how your father/husband/boyfriend/nephew etc gang raped and murdered a little girl in a back alley somewhere right? Oh I'll use their full names, pictures, list their places of employment and education so I can protect others. I mean, after all, they can come forward and say "We didnt do it" right?

  213. #213

    @ typhonblue

    "What gives women the right* to do this? Do men get to use every means of humiliation to keep _girls_ in line?

    * Even more interesting, what gave women the _power_ to do this in the first place?"

    Women give birth to men. That's reason enough.

  214. #214

    @ webber

    "Women give birth to men. That’s reason enough."

    I see. So I suppose every woman should be beholden to the opinions of her mother as well, being a mere cypher of her choices?

    Amazing how matriarchal feminists are. Have womb, will rule.

  215. #215

    "Amazing how matriarchal feminists are. Have womb, will rule"

    That's right baby.

  216. #216

    webber
    May 10th, 2010
    11:26 pm #215“Amazing how matriarchal feminists are. Have womb, will rule”

    That’s right baby.

    ^^^

    Perhaps the most disgusting thing I have read on this entire blog....

    I'm a woman and a mother but I cannot comprehend the mere fact of my possession of a uterus entitling me to jack shit.

  217. #217

    "I cannot comprehend the mere fact of my possession of a uterus entitling me to jack shit."

    Keep thinking, you'll get there

  218. #218

    @ Tasha:

    "I’m a woman and a mother but I cannot comprehend the mere fact of my possession of a uterus entitling me to jack shit."

    It's what you do with it that counts! :D

    As for webber's philosophy... um... I have to admit I have as much sympathy for the belief that having a womb entitles one to rule as I have for the belief that having a penis entitles one to rule.

    I think I'll cast my vote for the 'having a brain entitles one to rule' party.

  219. #219

    Find an alpha female and learn.

  220. #220

    @ weber:

    "Find an alpha female and learn."

    So how does one go about identifying an alpha female? Does she leave piss stains to mark her territory? Or does she just point to her crotch and go 'OOG!'

  221. #221

    She'll be dominate and will knock your horns off, as the Iroquois would say, if you misbehave.

  222. #222

    @ webber:

    "She’ll be dominate and will knock your horns off, as the Iroquois would say, if you misbehave."

    Ah. So I imagine these alpha females have lots of hair, claws and hibernate in the winter. I can't think of anything more dominant that gives birth then a female grizzly!

  223. #223

    @webber--

    "Keep thinking, you’ll get there"
    Lol...it's cute how you feel that anit-gynocentricism is tantamount to stupidity.
    I don't think I should be handed anything just because of my gender. I want things because I have actively earned them through my qualifications. The reverse is also true, I shouldn't be denied anything just because of my gender.

    also

    "She’ll be dominate and will knock your horns off, as the Iroquois would say, if you misbehave."

    I presume she will also know that the correct incarnatin of the word is DOMINANT...as in she will be DOMINANT....

    Now go pick up your horns love, you've misbehaved enough and I am done with you..... :D

    @Typhonblue---

    “Find an alpha female and learn.”

    So how does one go about identifying an alpha female? Does she leave piss stains to mark her territory? Or does she just point to her crotch and go ‘OOG!’

    Hahaha!

  224. #224

    Great artical, it is about time that the rapists had no place to hide. Facebook is a great idea!

    The only shame in being raped should be from the rapist and not the victim.

    Nice work Chloe! xo diane

  225. #225

    Grizzly bears are an excellent example of female power, as are elephants and tigresses.

    Among human alpha females an authoritative disposition is key to high rank, not unlike that which is seen in the natural world.

  226. #226

    @ Tasha

    You obviously have sons and are weak.

    Weak mothers make weak sons. You have potential though. Toughen up and try not to collude with lesser males.

  227. #227

    @webber:
    "Grizzly bears are an excellent example of female power, as are elephants and tigresses."

    Not so much when you compare them to male grizzlies, elephants and tigers. The only mammal that comes to mind where the females are seen as stronger are hyenas, but I could see where you'd like to avoid that particular comparison.

  228. #228

    Males of said species are strong only in terms of brute strength, not always wise in the expression of that strength.

    The female sustains life, including killing when necessary; that’s female power.

    Males can only take life, unless they are pack animals. Only then do they become extensions of maternal care.

  229. #229

    @webber--

    to your above post:
    "Males of said species are strong only in terms of brute strength, not always wise in the expression of that strength."

    ****If you are still talking (bizarrely imo) about wild animals, then I have to ask, how the hell do you come up with this crap? Wild animals are WILD..the female just as capable of aggression and brute strength as a male***

    "The female sustains life, including killing when necessary; that’s female power.

    Males can only take life, unless they are pack animals. Only then do they become extensions of maternal care"

    ****So a females lethal aggression is justified and a product of a thought process which includes making moral judgments and is somehow, without exception, always noble(still talking about a wild animal mind you), but a male simply acts on bloodlust and rage? Good Lord get a grip ffs!

    And what does any of this have to do with the topic of the FB post? Nothing. You're simply using it as a platform for a stance on female supremacy and man bashing.

  230. #230

    I was falsely accused of raping a girl when I was 16 but it wasn't by the female or even the parents. It was her older sister. I had apparently slighted this sister at some time. When everything was made clear I realized I had befriended her sister when we first started in high school. Then after a few weeks we just didn't hang out. Nothing happened, just stopped hanging out.

    Anyway, I was both furious and ashamed. I had to find the gumption to confront my grade's counselor about the situation and have him help me with the whole situation. We all sat down and figured out how it got started. Things settled down and, in fact, the rumor didn't spread much. I guess because I I'll never know for sure. But a month or so later some angry young man sucker punched me on the way to an assembly. His motivation? He was dating the older sister that accused me of rape. I denied to press charges but you people need to seriously think about the ramifications of inflammatory statements like this.

    Rape is terrible and should be fought in every way possible but you MUST realize there are "solutions" with too much collateral damage. Naming names requires proof and details. She could have achieved similar success without potentially fucking up peoples' lives. The young man in my story was probably convicted of assault.

  231. #231

    @ Tasha

    "I am done with you..."

    Obviously not. I see you came back and posted again.

    >
    Chloe gave that boy a strong correction by posting his name. The most important part of the above blog is that the boy now runs from her when they're in the same room. Fear is a good thing in a young man. He's been outed and now less likely to assault again.

    >
    Many of our native American tribes were matriarchies and they managed their men well. There are a few matriarchies left and, just like our native peoples, they don't even have a word for rape.

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