Woman Shot After Refusing Stranger’s Advances: The Harassee’s Dilemma
A local college student was shot in the ankle over the weekend after she refused to give her phone number to a guy on the street. The student was leaving a party with a group of friends on early Sunday morning when the man shot her for rebuffing his sexual harassment. As she told Fox 5:
He told my cousin that he was gonna shoot at us if i didn't give him my number, and then he started shooting . . . I thought somebody kicked me in my leg, like, it was a lot of us running, so I thought somebody kicked me. I didn't know it was a gunshot.
The bullet is still lodged in her ankle.
Women who are harassed on the street have two options:
1. Be nice. Do what they want. Laugh nervously at their jokes. Surrender your phone number. Endure an increasing amount of sexual harassment. Get labeled a tease when you eventually turn down a date / refuse sex / don't answer the phone call / otherwise fail to please the stranger who is harassing you.
2. Be dismissive. Ignore the stranger's advances. Refuse to surrender your phone number. Tell him you're not interested. Endure an increasing amount of vitriol for turning the guy down. Get labeled a bitch immediately.
Which path do you choose? The college student chose to be dismissive; she got shot. But remember what can happen to you when you choose to be nice: After being stalked and then cornered in an empty Metro parking garage early in the morning, Emily Ruskowski eventually agreed to give the man her phone number. Then he groped her breast and attempted to enter her car.
The bitch-or-tease decision is made necessary by the pervasiveness of casual street harassment that can quickly escalate into a serious threat. I would talk about how easily unwanted sexual advances can turn into angry, violent advances, but in reality, the two scenarios are often indistinguishable from one another. When a man demands the phone number of a woman who is obviously uninterested in him, or when he propositions a lesbian couple that is obviously uninterested in him, or when he reaches out to grope a woman who is obviously uninterested in him, he is just as threatening as the man who intimidates a person into surrendering her wallet, or screams homophobic slurs at a lesbian couple, or exerts physical violence over his victim.
The difference is that the first category of advances is explained away as innocent consequences of a runaway libido and the victims' mixed messages; the second category is recognized as unacceptable violence. Sexual harassment is harassment; sexual assault is assault. If you don't want to contribute to a culture of street harassment the moves a man to shoot a woman who won't go out with him, then don't cat-call, don't ogle, don't ask for a number, don't grab, and don't follow. Stop tasking women with the potentially dangerous decision of how to let a guy down easy.
12:34 pm
Thank you for this. Recently, this past week, a guy in my building was harassing me in the staircase, and kept demanding that I come back down the stairs to talk to him, and then asking me to go out with him, despite the fact that I said I had a boyfriend. He started to get more assertive with his demands and say that I needed to give him my phone number, then demand that I drive him to work, all of which I responded with, no, I have to leave for work. I ended up being late for work because I needed someone to accompany me down the stairs afterwards.
I've been terrified of him since, especially after a few occasions where my boyfriend and I noticed him watching us, and eventually had to tell my landlord.
Women should never have to deal with this kind of treatment. There's not a right or wrong approach in this situation. In most situations, a woman needs to say no, but sometimes that can end up being the wrong answer as well, and things such as this poor girl's situation happen.
When a woman says no, she means it.
12:51 pm
@Meghann, until gradual change has occurred and you don't have to worry about weirdos accosting you in your staircase you should tell your boyfriend to step to that creep! Your boyfriend is just watching this guy watch you? He could at least approach the guy and talk to him...or maybe give some of the threatening vibe back to him.
12:57 pm
This is the article I will link to from now on when someone tells me I should be "flattered" by street harassment, and not threatened.
1:00 pm
The victim in this case is a dumb ass!
1:02 pm
ADDED NOTE: For Fox 5 giving this women a platform is a waste of video tape and a waste of the viewers time!
1:12 pm
I know, right? How dare she put that gun in the nice man's hand and then convince him to shoot her. What an asshole she is.
1:17 pm
Emily WK - right?! I mean, she thought she had the right to keep her personal information to herself? wtf?
1:19 pm
I think the kind of people who cat call and do shit like that wouldn't notice if someone was "obviously" uninterested in them.
1:25 pm
kza - I get what you're saying, because I've had interactions with a few men who I felt just "didn't get it." So normally I would agree with you here except for the part where he shot her. At "some point" in the exchange he figured out she was obviously uninterested in him.
1:46 pm
Katie, yes! How dare she attempt to keep her personal information to herself. She was getting attention from a Glorious Man!
2:14 pm
I dont think that bluring the line between the behaviour of this deranged individual and "men" (in general) particularly fair or honest.
2:31 pm
@Eo: I didn't think this article "blurred the line" between the behavior of this guy and men in general. I think it did point out the very real danger that some street harassers pose, and why some women who experience street harassment react so strongly. When I experience catcalls or other kinds of aggressive come-ons, I know that it's possible that the guy doing the catcalling is harmless...but it's also possible that he is a dangerous stalker. When I ignore a catcall, I have been called obscene names, been threatened, and been followed down the street by the catcaller, to the point that I have had to jump on a bus or hide from the guy. I find street harassment very scary, and I get really annoyed when people say that women are too uptight about it, or should be flattered, or not make such a big deal about it. If a guy hollers at me, I don't know what to expect--at best it will be harmless but annoying, but it is possible that it will be dangerous.
2:36 pm
Who is generalizing? Is saying that men in general should not cat call or ogle women generalizing? Is it wrong to say that men are the ones who are doing this?
It isn't all men, we know this, but it is some men, and it is not like they wear matching T-shirts so we can all just be extra careful around the guys on street corners in the "I will shoot you if you don't give me your number t-shirt."
Though if you want to start an initiative like that so women wont discriminate against all men because some men are assholes, I'd be in favor. Or maybe you could just try to convince them to leve us alone, this would be better, and is also maybe part of the point of the post.
3:00 pm
i doubt there's a woman reading this article who hasn't been physically threatened by a man. not everyone has been hit, or shot, or raped, but we've all felt that assertion of power over our bodies. and that's why this story doesn't blur any lines. there are no lines. violence, sexism, homophobia, it's all one big continuum.
3:12 pm
Shinobi,
Yeah Shinobi, the actions of a deranged person shouldnt be used to stereotype all men or all men that cat call or "ogle" for that matter.
"Street harassment" is a western political construct.
Ill give you three first hand examples of what we call "street harassment".
If you go to the south america and walk by exhibitionist (showing lots of flesh etc) women without ogeling or commenting they will be annoyed, these women will occasionally attract a deranged individual.
When I lived in West Africa a european girl complained to be about guys in the street, she occasionally attrracted a deranged individual, I asked her why she was wearing the beads around her hips and told her that wearing them them signals that you are looking for a man, she stopped wearing them and men stopped reacting to it.
In america, women will be exhibitionist and indicate that they are looking for sexual attention, if men react or look that these women arent interested in its called "street harassment", occasionally these women will attract a deranged individiual.
The deranged individuals in the stories arent indictive of men or sexaully assertive men, they are indicitive of deranged individuals.
As for taring all men with the actions of a minority a, there is a tendency among (western women at least) to do it according to this article
http://www.sindhtoday.net/news/2/118944.htm
3:33 pm
Eo, while I know I shouldn't engage you, I just can't stop myself. If you think women are catcalled, harassed, and pressured on the street or in public only when dressed provocatively you are incredibly wrong.
The issue here is with people like you, who are so quick to point out what the woman is doing to attract attention, that you minimize gross behavior. There's no way to differentiate whether the dude who is asking for my number is going to then walk away or if he's going to try to touch my face or grope me or pull a gun, because the culture perpetuates the idea that it's totally okay for women to be harassed, and that women are obviously doing something to attract it.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply decry the threatening behavior in the first place, so that these "deranged individuals" become easier to avoid?
3:35 pm
And this is not the only girl who was shot after turning down a harasser's advances. Mildred Beaubrun, Tanganika Stanton, Jazmine Thompson, and Adilah Gaither come to mind. (All of them died from their injuries.)
When will this nonsense stop?
3:50 pm
Eo,
So you're saying we should be especially concerned with being fair to men who harass us on the street as we try to go about our daily business? Is that what you're saying.
And we're just supposed to put up with the risk of getting stalked shot or killed so we don't hurt the menfolk's precious fee fees? Is that what you're saying?
Whatever, don't worry I'm sure no one will take away your "right" to harass women on the street for dates because you're too big of a woman hater to get a date with any woman who has spoken with you for more than 10 seconds. Unfortunately you don't get to take away our right to think that you are an asshole and potentially dangerous to boot.
3:52 pm
@ squirrely girl
I just meant that in general, men who are going to be up in a girls face demanding her number aren't going to notice that the woman is not interested. Shouldn't being a lesbian deter guys from hitting on a girl? If that doesn't stop them idk what will. Mace or electrified brass knuckles might help.
4:08 pm
"Eo, while I know I shouldn’t engage you, I just can’t stop myself. If you think women are catcalled, harassed, and pressured on the street or in public only when dressed provocatively you are incredibly wrong.
The issue here is with people like you, who are so quick to point out what the woman is doing to attract attention, that you minimize gross behavior. There’s no way to differentiate whether the dude who is asking for my number is going to then walk away or if he’s going to try to touch my face or grope me or pull a gun, because the culture perpetuates the idea that it’s totally okay for women to be harassed, and that women are obviously doing something to attract it.
Wouldn’t it be easier to simply decry the threatening behavior in the first place, so that these “deranged individuals” become easier to avoid?"
Society does decry threatening behaviour and no, I dont think that stereotyping all men or all sexually assertive men with the behaviour of a minority is right and Im sure that women who are not being sexual exhibitionists in public (is this a form of sexual harassment too?) are sometimes harassed too but that the latter is more common. I also think that misogyny and aggressive attitudes twords women are routed in abuse and that as long as we are not dealing with female child and domestic abuse we will keep producing misogynists.
4:20 pm
You know what Eo, I'd rather risk stereotyping "sexually aggressive men," then not, and get shot over it. See the issue? I, like many people, like life. And I don't know why you don't get this, but women don't owe men they don't know anything, especially considering WOMEN DIE OVER THIS (sorry, I conjured kza). Sorry if I hurt your "fee fees" (lol!!) sexually aggressive dudes. Your feelings aren't worth more than my life. Plus, guess what, women don't have to talk to any stranger, if they decide they don't want to! Imagine that! Free will! Women have it, too!
4:24 pm
Shinobi----"So you’re saying we should be especially concerned with being fair to men who harass us on the street as we try to go about our daily business? Is that what you’re saying."
Are you daft? He's saying that while street harrassers exist and are in general idiots ( a point I think we all agree with), women should also be mindful of what they are doing or not doing (i.e. the hip beads).
This reminds me of the topless march in Portland, Maine last month. These women, self proclaimed feminists, marched to protest the double standard. They took off their shirts and paraded their tits down a busy street, hoping to raise awareness about their socio-political position.
How do you raise awareness? YOU ATTRACT ATTENTION
OK, they attracted attention INTENTIONALLY.
Men (and some women) gathered to look, some took pictures, there's even youtube....they got attention, but they are now PISSED!
Why?
Because, claims the organizer, it wasnt the "right kind" of attention....she just KNOWS some of those dirty dirty men were looking at her tits and having sexual thoughts. She only wanted purist, non sexual, socially conscious thoughts about her tits....
The parallel exists here too. In a perfect world, I should be able to parade my naked ass down the street at high noon and no one should comment....but they would, ofc ourse they would....so if I dont want comments, I take the PROACTIVE approach and put on some clothes.
*I'm not saying people should have to tolerate shit like this, and the woman in the article did nothing wrong,but to say women are obviated of responsibility here is infantalising.
4:37 pm
"You know what Eo, I’d rather risk stereotyping “sexually aggressive men,” then not, and get shot over it. See the issue? I, like many people, like life. And I don’t know why you don’t get this, but women don’t owe men they don’t know anything, especially considering WOMEN DIE OVER THIS (sorry, I conjured kza). Sorry if I hurt your “fee fees” (lol!!) sexually aggressive dudes. Your feelings aren’t worth more than my life. Plus, guess what, women don’t have to talk to any stranger, if they decide they don’t want to! Imagine that! Free will! Women have it, too!"
Look, sexaully aggressive men and women should be allowed to be sexual without some group or religion stereotyping them witht he behaviour of a deranged minority.
Being provocative in anyway carries inherent risks. I sometimes get wolf whistled when I jog..in a bar recently a girl squezing by me pushed her rear into my crotch and looked over her shoulder at me and said "excuse me its very.... tight".
The wolf whisteling and the girl in the bar is sexual assertiveness , I dont get to control who is sexually assertive and who is sexually assertive towards me.
4:55 pm
Eo, harassment is NOT being "sexually assertive." It is harassment. It is a violation of someone's personal space and dignity and it is WRONG. There is no excuse--none!--for failing to be respectful of another human being or intimidating someone or insisting that someone tolerate or be made aware of your sexual attraction to them.
What the fuck does "sexually assertive" even mean? If you can't say hello to someone (and accept it if they don't say hello back), ask them (politely) out for coffee or whatever, then shut the fuck up!! And, it's not "assertive" to interrupt a stranger's life to inform them how attractive you think they are, demand their attention, or whatever--it's intrusive. It's wrong. It makes others feel degraded and unsafe and ignores their lack of consent about your "being sexual" at or on them. ALL of this behavior, whether mildly offensive catcalls or following or shooting people, exists on a continuum of TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE DOUCHEBAGGERY.
5:17 pm
Am I known around here for using caps lock or something?
5:24 pm
OMG, you are so right.
It is totally MY fault that I get street harassed for being so provocative.
I should have been smarter and moved into a house immediately adjacent to my office so that i could avoid having to walk two blocks to a bus stop and then another two blocks to my office. It is my fault for walking those two blocks outside in the sunshine, this is clearly an invitation for men to solicit me sexually. And maybe I should wear something that covers me more thoroughly than my jeans and button down shirts. Perhaps I should wear a burkah, that way I wouldn't be provoking anyone.
Clearly me walking to and from the office is EXACTLY THE SAME as walking around with my tits out, or wearing something that is a cultural symbol of wanting to get it on. I should do a better job of staying inside.
My point women get harassed regardless of what they are doing or what they are wearing. They get harassed simply because they are in public. It is not our fault that some people never learned any manners.
It is also not infantilizing to say that an individual is not responsible for other people's actions. It is simply true. Even a 3 year old knows that no one can make them do things they don't want to do. Another person's response to my behavior is completely under their control, unless of course you are arguing that men somehow lack the capacity to behave themselves. (Which I would not agree with.)
5:41 pm
If you were wearing a burkah guys would just say that say your eyes were checking them out. You need a bee keeper outfit.
5:43 pm
Not to justify this loons actions ..
I suspect the story is missing the part were the girl verbally abused and humiliated the guy before he shot her.
5:45 pm
I've been harassed in jeans and a sweatshirt (the guy followed me for three or four blocks calling me a "white c***" and a bitch) and while wearing a business suit. I'm pretty sure that in neither case was I dressed in a "provocative manner." I would have to say that there was no direct relationship between my clothing and my being harassed.
And even if I was, making sexually explicit comments to a stranger, yelling obscenities at a stranger, following a stranger after she ignores you, demanding that she talk to you/give you her phone number/have sex with you, and grabbing a stranger are all bad responses to a woman being dressed in a provocative manner (assuming that we even agree on what "that" means). Most men do not do these things. They are not the same as being sexual or assertive. They are not flattering.
5:45 pm
Kza I feel my hips would still stick out in a bee keeper outfit....Perhaps a pup tent? Or maybe I could have one of those suits the Astronauts use made for me, and then it would be like I wasn't really outside at all because I'd have my own environment.
5:50 pm
Shorter Eo
"Not to justify this loon's actions...
Something that attempts to justify this loon's actions."
Verbal humiliation is the price you pay for bothering total strangers, something I'm sure you are already familiar with.
6:07 pm
In the old days, women would give a man a fake phone number. I agree that this isn't a solution to the problem, but it is a option. I really don't think this has much to do with gender politics, but more to do with the lack of regard for human life in the country, and especially the city. What was it, two months ago that four people were killed, and six others shot in SE, over what, a bracelet? A long time ago, I remember someone got shot in Union Station for stepping on someones shoes. The same people who'll shoot a woman because she won't give him her phone number, is the same type of person who'll shot someone because they stepped on their shoe, got in a road rage incident, or got fired from a job, and decides to go on a rampage.
6:25 pm
I'm afraid the only logical thing that woman can wear that isn't slutty is an invisibility cloak.
6:54 pm
Shinobi--"OMG, you are so right.
It is totally MY fault that I get street harassed for being so provocative.
I should have been smarter and moved into a house immediately adjacent to my office so that i could avoid having to walk two blocks to a bus stop and then another two blocks to my office. It is my fault for walking those two blocks outside in the sunshine, this is clearly an invitation for men to solicit me sexually. And maybe I should wear something that covers me more thoroughly than my jeans and button down shirts. Perhaps I should wear a burkah, that way I wouldn’t be provoking anyone."
Why do you need to respond with totally disproportionate examples? Can we not keep it somewhat realistic here? No where did I say that women should wrap themselves in burlap and remain indoors...I used a very specific example. Inflating an argument using hysteria is usually a sign of a weak one imo.
What I was getting at was the dynamic between perception. The women at the march were happy to bare their breasts as long as it was for a cause, but since they could not control other people's perceptions, they are pissed. In one scenario walking down the street topless is a socio political statement to be respected, in the other, walking the street half naked is slutty and whorish. Why? The only difference is perception. So if you know certain things elicit certain perceptions, be responsible and either don't do those things or at least have the maturity to not go mental when the expected happens.
Obviously Im talking about extremes here, like walking around naked or standing in the street screaming racial epithets etc...you have to expect something negative will occur. Im not talking about your daily commute..but then...you knew that ;)
You also said--"My point women get harassed regardless of what they are doing or what they are wearing. They get harassed simply because they are in public. It is not our fault that some people never learned any manners."
Ive managed to go a very very long time without being harassed due to my gender or sexuality. I simply dont see this constant barrage of ill treatment that you say virtually every woman needs to fight against every day...
And also----"It is also not infantilizing to say that an individual is not responsible for other people’s actions. It is simply true. Even a 3 year old knows that no one can make them do things they don’t want to do. Another person’s response to my behavior is completely under their control, unless of course you are arguing that men somehow lack the capacity to behave themselves. (Which I would not agree with.)"
It IS infantalising if you obviate them of all responsibility because of their gender!! Yes, it really is! Saying all women are oppressed and all women are harassed paints us ALL as victims...perpetual victims that are helpless to change anything...so helpless we cant take responsibility when we should.
No, I think men are quite capable of managing themselves like the normal human beings they are.
7:00 pm
Shinobi
"Verbal humiliation is the price you pay for bothering total strangers, something I’m sure you are already familiar with".
No, I live in Dublin Ireland which is a fairly friendly place, the idea that talking to a stranger justifies verbal abuse is one thats alien to me.
8:17 pm
WTF - misogynist douchebags are taking over this thread.
Ive managed to go a very very long time without being harassed due to my gender or sexuality. I simply dont see this constant barrage of ill treatment that you say virtually every woman needs to fight against every day…
Translation: if it doesn't happen to MEEE then it doesn't HAPPEN!
Resolved: you are a fucking idiot.
No, I live in Dublin Ireland which is a fairly friendly place, the idea that talking to a stranger justifies verbal abuse is one thats alien to me.
Translation: if a man says something to you and you don't respond in a way that he likes, he is justified in taking extreme action against you.
Resolved: you are a fucking idiot.
But please, don't let me have the final word - I look forward to your further displays of fucking idiocy in defense of your moronic misogyny.
8:19 pm
Tasha ma be to scared to say it so I will. All women should wrap themselves in burlap. Yea you heard me.
10:03 pm
Tasha, I wasn't being unrealistic, I was being SATIRICAL, you were being unrealistic and drawing parallels that have nothing to do with this post. A woman leaves a bar and then gets shot for not giving a man her number and it is her fault because she was percieved poorly or something that makes no sense?
I actually do get harassed on my daily commute, just walking to and from a boss, and it is a problem for me. If my action, walking to the bus is PERCIEVED as some kind of sexual invitation then we have clearly gotten to the point where simply being in public is a sexual act. (See my point above.)
I don't DO anything to cause these men to harass me. I simply walk, from place to place, and they drive up to me in cars and way lay me on the sidewalk with creepy and vaguely threatening comments.
This happens to lots of other women, that's why there are web communities about it.
I am not infantilizing myself to say that I DO NOTHING to invite this, and I have no control over the actions of the men who harass me. All I can control is how I respond, and I try to respond in such a way that they do not respond with violence as the man above did.
10:08 pm
Nancy----
Why don't you go back and read my posts in this thread as many times as you need to so that you understand what I'm saying. Intentionally quoting out of context is not a strategy of debate, neither is basing the entire crux of your own argument on schoolyard name calling--and really, if it had been even remotely clever at least you could have scored points for entertaining me....
In light of the fact that it is probably too much to ask that you familiarize yourself with what I *actually* said...
Shinobi made this statement: "women get harassed regardless of what they are doing or what they are wearing. They get harassed simply because they are in public.”
Which paints an inaccurate picture of women constantly being harassed and possibly accosted by throngs of men on a daily basis...as if walking to the bus was akin to walking a rape gauntlet ffs....
The fact that you call me a fucking idiot for never having had this experience, and hint at me being in denial about it really only proves my point about victimhood
10:18 pm
Shinobi made this statement: “women get harassed regardless of what they are doing or what they are wearing. They get harassed simply because they are in public.”
Which paints an inaccurate picture of women constantly being harassed and possibly accosted by throngs of men on a daily basis…as if walking to the bus was akin to walking a rape gauntlet ffs….
It is not inaccurate. Women ARE harassed on a daily basis. Maybe an individual woman will get lucky and not be harassed for weeks at a time. But eventually she most likely will be harassed again, sooner or later. Every woman I've ever known has had it happen to her, including my aunt the nun. It happened to me two weeks ago - I crossed the street in front of a truck full of guys and they made that little gross mouth noise that they sometimes make. And I am probably old enough to be their mother.
Now neither Shinobi nor anybody else here is saying that every single woman is harassed every single day of her life - that's preposterous to think that anybody here is saying anything so extreme. Why, you'd have to be a fucking idiot to believe...
Oh. Right.
10:20 pm
Tasha,
I was not trying to paint a picture of how woman are enduring a constant baragge of harassment. My point is that the harassment occurs regardless of women's actions, or clothing, not that they are all constantly being harassed in public. Sorry for the confusion.
6:38 am
In the old days, women would give a man a fake phone number. I agree that this isn’t a solution to the problem, but it is a option.
Actually nowadays this too is quite dangerous. I've had friends who gave out fake numbers 1990's style, and the guys whipped out their cell phone and tried to call the number right then and there to test it.
Giving out fake digits is also a bad idea if there is any possibility that you might bump into the guy again, say at a neighborhood bus stop.
Regarding this story, I can't help but see some parallels to men throwing acid on women. Different weapon, different cultural scripts and narrative, similar concept of rejection met with violence.
But really. Clothing, words exchanged, etc are all beside the point because the rational response to rejection is not to shoot someone. So we're talking about the extreme reactions of a tiny minority of irrational people who are indistinguishable from the general population.
And yet people are suggesting that the majority conform already culturally appropriate mundane behaviors such as mannerisms and dress to contend with irrational violent behavior? Despite there being ZERO evidence that this will have any effect? Astounding.
9:12 am
@Nancy: lol
It is mad the way sexual violence threads develop into crazed slut-bashing extravaganzas on this blog. You throw these topics up into the air like birdseed and you are immediately inundated with moronic, insistent bird-brains (hi Eo) crapping all over the place like incontinent pigeons.
Now I'm going to, er, obviate the floor to someone else.
4:25 pm
@Shinobi: "It isn’t all men, we know this, but it is some men, and it is not like they wear matching T-shirts so we can all just be extra careful around the guys on street corners in the “I will shoot you if you don’t give me your number t-shirt.”"
It isn’t all brown people, we know this, but it is some brown people, and it is not like they wear matching T-shirts so we can all just be extra careful around the brown people on street corners in the “I will blow you up if you don't stop Israeli and Western oppression now” t-shirt.
5:21 pm
Sorry folks. One thing missig in this story and all accompanying comments is a human being's right to defend themselves. But, of course, the District of Columbia doesn't allow that (i.e. having a gun) unless you're in your own house. And even then, you're required to keep it inoperable (LOL).
Tired of hearing the whining. Learn to use a handgun, learn the law regarding self-defense, take self-defense / martial arts classes.
Stop being victims.
8:08 pm
And this is why I have a tazer...
9:48 pm
This assault, this article and the comments on this article are frightening. Why are people verbally attacking women for being upset about being harassed by men for refusing to give out their phone #? If only they would direct their rage towards men who intimidate, assault and even murder women who don't give them their phone number or attention on demand. disgusting.
11:06 pm
Tasha == Eo's pet sockpuppet.
Learning self-defense and carrying weapons does work sometimes. But it tends toward violence escalation, or toward the predators simply targeting someone else(which, sure helps me, but doesn't solve the problem). Until they also learn and equip themselves for violence. Then escalation. And sadly, escalation of violence favors the violent, favors the predators. Here in the US, we have more gun rights then most any other developed nation. And higher levels of violent crime.
Why not just contemplate, a little, the advice offered: To the majority of men, who -aren't- crazy violent psychopaths, specifically to the sizable subset of same who are 'sexually assertive', who think approaching a woman stranger in a sexual fashion in public is OK, please stop it. You are creating the tall grass in which the crazies hide. You are threatening. You are upsetting. You are demeaning.
It's not a compliment. It's not going to get you laid. It may win you cool points with your bros. In which case, you bros: Stop that too! You are encouraging bad behavior.
But since this is a blog mostly read by women, and there are folks(mainly TashEo) here talking about women trying to find something that isn't infantalizing, something -women- can do about it, well, there is. We can talk to men. We can tell them this isn't cool. We can talk to other women, remind them that -they- can stand against this shit when they see it.
And yeah, when we feel it's safe, if we are willing to take the risk, we can verbally abuse and humiliate the shit out of the jerk-offs who pull this on us. And maybe we -can- learn self-defense, or arm ourselves. But I don't believe that that is the best, or only, answer. And I don't think that women should be held responsible for preventing being harassed, groped, stalked, assaulted.
The perpetrators are responsible. And those non-perpetrators who enable them by providing the 'tall grass', by encouraging misogynistic behavior, and by engaging in victim blaming share some of the blame. The victim? Unless s/he has perpetrated some of these, does not. Regardless of what s/he wore. And regardless of how s/he responded to the initial, threatening advance.
11:33 am
I am so proud that you young women here see the tragedy in this. You should be able to tell any unknown/known idiot NO you do NOT want to give your phone number to them. If you feel threatened, I suggest you invest in a simple 'peice' yourself...the LadySmith by Smith and Wesson comes with the cutest pearl handle...tiem for this shit to cease..let's protect ourselves...
2:00 pm
@DanceDreaming: "But it tends toward violence escalation, or toward the predators simply targeting someone else(which, sure helps me, but doesn’t solve the problem)."
Given that some harassers are already armed, "escalate" how, RPGs and tanks? Howitzers aimed at your house? Or is your area beyond the control of local police and legislators?
Since the harasser doesn't know in advance which woman has a pistol and which woman doesn't, it actually helps the unarmed as well.
Excluding the totally reckless sociopath, harassers do look for soft targets. An unexpected gun, or even the possibility of it, is bound to make them think again.
6:11 pm
You raise some important questions that illuminate how complicated negotiating street harassment can be. Many of us have internalized this and chalked it up to something we just have to 'deal with.' I made a film Walking Home about this very issue.. Please feel free to share.
Youtube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2Qpi-fW6jA&feature=player_embedded
WALKING HOME: This is an experimental piece about women ritually facing street harassment as they walk home. Shot in Brooklyn and Philadelphia, it mixes 16mm film, video, poetry and music in an effort to honor and reclaim our voice, name and humanity in the public sphere. This is for the walkers, talkers and those who say nothing.
5:33 pm
"If you don’t want to contribute to a culture of street harassment the moves a man to shoot a woman who won’t go out with him, then don’t cat-call, don’t ogle, don’t ask for a number, don’t grab, and don’t follow. Stop tasking women with the potentially dangerous decision of how to let a guy down easy."
How is asking a woman you meet for her number in any way shape or form similar to shooting a woman who rejects you?
8:17 pm
Michael,
Personally, I think it REALLY depends on context. I've given out my number before in social settings where I'm talking to a friend of a friend or casual acquaintance. But not to total strangers and not to random jerks that yell, "gimme your number" and crap like that.
I think the hardest part of this for a lot of men to understand is that there ARE assholes who are verbally abusive and stalkerific to random women and it DOES ruin it for the good guys. :(
10:23 pm
Perhaps this will help all of the people who think being justifiably wary of a stranger's advances (read: harassment) is unfair!
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
10:28 pm
I am not one of the people who denies that street harassment is a problem. I've seen guys do it, so I know it happens. What I've also seen is girls flip out just because some guy approached them, that is also wrong. So I see both sides of the coin, there are guys who are jerks/harassers and there are chicks who have a diva attitude.....
10:45 pm
"What I’ve also seen is girls flip out just because some guy approached them, that is also wrong."
Here's my question: why should I automatically be polite to guys who come up to me on the street?
I don't have to be. Guys don't have the right to my attention. I could be thinking about something else. I could have just dealt with someone harassing me two blocks earlier. I could be worried the guy in front of me is going to become someone who will harass me two seconds after talking to me. All of those things are plausible. All of those things should be taken into account.
The guy who randomly approaches me in the street? He's not a known entity to me. I'm not a known entity to him. And because of that, if my instinct is to be cold or even mean, or if the last couple of guys I've dealt with have decimated my patience, that's what I'm going to do. Because I've dealt with many other guys like him before. And I don't owe him the benefit of the "not a harasser" doubt. He hasn't earned it. And frankly, he can't earn it. Because in order to earn it, I would have to give him that benefit first.
Unfair to him? Maybe. More unfair to me to put me in the situation where I have to worry about whether or not this guy who's standing in front of me is suddenly going to show me his dick? I would say so.
Which is where we come back to DanceDreaming's point:
"To the majority of men, who -aren’t- crazy violent psychopaths, specifically to the sizable subset of same who are ’sexually assertive’, who think approaching a woman stranger in a sexual fashion in public is OK, please stop it. You are creating the tall grass in which the crazies hide. You are threatening. You are upsetting. You are demeaning."
Because that is the world I operate in. And in order to tell the guys who are going to make me feel like crap or make me feel frightened or small or pathetic from the genuinely nice guys looking to meet a girl, then their starting points are going to have to be radically different. And right now, it isn't.
5:41 am
"Here’s my question: why should I automatically be polite to guys who come up to me on the street?"
Take sex out of the equation. Your sitting at a park bench and eating a sandwich a random woman walks up and starts making conversation, you don't feel like talking why do you owe her politeness? Because respect is a two way street you can't be a bitch for no good reason and then get upset if a guy throws it back in your face, if you want respect you have to give it.
I would go even further, maintaining a double standard for women were you hold men to a higher standard of politeness is misogynistic. Basically your saying women aren't capable enough to be held to the same standards as women.
5:51 am
With that said if a guy will not take a hint you have every right to be an asshole. Politeness is a two way street and bothering someone when they clearly want to be left alone is fucking rude, so go ahead be as rude as you want.
10:59 am
"Take sex out of the equation. Your sitting at a park bench and eating a sandwich a random woman walks up and starts making conversation, you don’t feel like talking why do you owe her politeness?"
I don't. But to take sex out of the equation, or the possibility of HARASSMENT out of the equation, is to take out the very reason I may be extraordinarily impolite instead of only moderately so.
"Because respect is a two way street you can’t be a bitch for no good reason and then get upset if a guy throws it back in your face, if you want respect you have to give it."
Also, you're ignoring the fact that the respect I want is the acknowledgement that when I'm on the street, I'm not automatically there to talk to, to flirt with, or anything else. The respect I want most often is to be respectfully left alone. I'm going from point A to point B, and although you may be a very nice gentleman, I don't need to meet you now, nor do I necessarily want to. The respect I give is that I don't walk up to guys (or girls) I don't know and "Hey Baby" them, nor do I ask for their number, flash them, or follow them once they've ignored me. That? Is the respect I'd like back.
"I would go even further, maintaining a double standard for women were you hold men to a higher standard of politeness is misogynistic. Basically your saying women aren’t capable enough to be held to the same standards as women."
Nope, it is just acknowledging that the woman on the bench is not likely to suddenly flash me or grab at my boobs. Could happen, sure. But in my experience, not as likely. And you're presupposing I'll be all buddy-buddy with a woman who approaches me, and I'm not really buddy-buddy with anyone who randomly sits down and tries to chat.
3:09 pm
Great article... way more than other so-called "news" sites would have provided.
I believe in (and practice) concealed carry. I wish she, or someone, had been able to shoot back.
5:50 pm
Here's the thing. You CAN'T take gender (I'm assuming that's what you meant) out of the equation. Women are more likely to be harassed by men than men are by women, and women are MUCH more likely to feel threatened when a strange man approaches them. Really, read the article I posted upthread. I'm not really talking about politeness here, I'm talking about personal safety.
Yeah, I'm generalizing. You know why? No woman's ever yelled something about my tits or pussy. No woman's ever approached me for my number stumbling and reeking of weed. No woman's ever purposely stood much, much too close to me on the bus. But men have. Not all men, but only men. So I'll go ahead and generalize for my own personal safety, and men can go ahead and take it personally if they want to.
"Would you like a step-ladder to assist you in getting over yourself?"
8:34 pm
"I don’t. But to take sex out of the equation, or the possibility of HARASSMENT out of the equation, is to take out the very reason I may be extraordinarily impolite instead of only moderately so. "
Sexual harassment is a type of harassment, sexual in this case is just an adverb/adjective describing the type of harassment. When I say take the issue of sex out of the question what I mean is, "if the person was saying or doing was not sexual would you be offended?"
And that is the heart of the matter for something to be sexual harassment it has to be harassment, the other person has to be harassing you.
I'm sympathetic to those who are concerned about personal safety, very sympathetic. But being rude to someone of the opposite sex because they might be interested in you in a sexual way doesn't make you safer, it just makes you look like a jerk.
"Also, you’re ignoring the fact that the respect I want is the acknowledgement that when I’m on the street, I’m not automatically there to talk to, to flirt with, or anything else."
Nobody should feel like they have to talk to strangers who come up to them, for whatever reason. Everyone has a right to be left to their own thoughts. But you can have your privacy and your personal space without being rude. If someone won't leave you alone and you've asked them too, and you swear at them your not being rude, the person who isn't leaving you alone is the one being rude.
"Yeah, I’m generalizing. You know why? No woman’s ever yelled something about my tits or pussy. No woman’s ever approached me for my number stumbling and reeking of weed. No woman’s ever purposely stood much, much too close to me on the bus. But men have. Not all men, but only men. So I’ll go ahead and generalize for my own personal safety, and men can go ahead and take it personally if they want to."
Not everything which is unpleasant is a violation of your rights, one of the costs of living in a free society is dealing with unpleasant people. If someone says "go home with me or else," that is a threat and violates your rights. If some drunk/high/rolling person says, "OMFG you are sooooo hot, please come home with me, I want to *insert vulgar discription of sex act*" That person is acting like an intoxicated idiot, and being annoying but not violating your rights.
8:34 pm
One more thing: Queen of carrots I did read your link, it's interesting, can't say I agree with it but none the less good stuff.
9:22 am
Why did the article not say what happened to the man who shot the woman? This guy needs to be put in jail and the key needs to be thrown away, because he is mentally ill and violent, to say the least.
1:44 pm
The article isn't there for you to agree with. It's there to explain to you how it is for a lot of women.
I think you're forgetting that we're not talking about approaching women with which you are in some kind of mutual social milieu. We're talking about random women on the street, who are minding their own business and would like that same courtesy returned.
To frame it in a more aggressive manner: Why do you feel entitled to the time and attention of these women, just because you are attracted to them? Why do you feel they owe you politeness when you are interrupting their daily lives, which have likely been recently interrupted by people like or worse than you, multiple times?
Since you seem to be at least willing to read things and are coming from the perspective of "but I'm a nice person!" here is another post about why, if you really ARE a nice guy, it is important to leave women on the street alone:
http://kateharding.net/2007/05/07/gratitude/
4:44 am
"In the old days, women would give a man a fake phone number. I agree that this isn’t a solution to the problem, but it is a option."
This is such a bad idea, last year I got harassed for about three weeks by a guy after someone gave a fake number (which was mine).
It started pretty normal. Just "hey had a great night, I was glad to have met you, call me" at 2am. I sent a message back saying I think he had the number wrong as I didn't know who he was. He became pressing and started to be sexually explicit about how he could "remind" me who he was. I politely re-iterated that he had the wrong number I had been home all night and that he must have been given a wrong number. He then preceded to call me a "f****** Wh***" and that he knew it was me. I did what I thought was the best and said that I was a guy so that he would be convinced, straight away he rang the phone so I got my BF to answer. He was abusive to him saying he must be my house mate and where was "that bitch". He carried on sending abusive texts about what he would do when he found me and ringing the phone to check a man answered (I got friends, workmates and my OH to answer every time).
So please NEVER give out incorrect numbers as you just transfer the aggression.
9:03 am
Would some people stop approaching this issue as if every separate case of street harassment is an individual, unique, discrete interaction between two people (one of whom happens to be male, and one of whom female)!!
A strange man walks up to me and says 'Hi baby.'
I spin round, yell 'Fuck off and DIE, arsehole!' and possibly mace him.
Gosh, looks like the crazy bitch overreacted, right?
Guys says hello v. crazy bitch screams and maces him.
Perhaps this man should take into account the years of intimidation and abuse the crazy bitch (aka Angry Lady) has been subjected to? Groping, following, catcalling, frottage, leers, stares, whistles...oh yeah, and a culture in which the female body is so sexualised and so appropriated by men that the Angry Lady's body doesn't even belong to herself! She can't even get dressed without worrying about who will harass her today, who will impose on her sexually, who will call her a slut!
Maybe it's the daily grind of the lack of respect for her humanity that makes THIS ONE ISOLATED INCIDENT such a powder keg. This is the dominant culture we're talking about, not a series of isolated incidents.
'a free society'? Michael, your privilege is showing. You may want to do something about that.
4:50 pm
Tasha, it's interesting how you say that those who argue that, under your views, women could only go out under an invisibility cloak (points for creativity) are taking this debate to the extreme, while simultaneously using the rather extreme example of women walking around topless as an example that is supposed to undermine our argument that the onus is on men to not harass women. How, exactly, does that reconcile in your little world? While I empathize with the unfairness inherent in women's pectoral region being sexualized and men's not, it's not the extreme example of women walking around topless that we begin our argument from, but the woman walking around fully and conservatively clothed, because, since that's not even safe, nothing "beyond" that can be.
Just because one particular person has not experienced harassment, doesn't mean that it doesn't occur, or that those who experience harassment did something wrong. What did I do wrong when, at 13, a man in his 40's asked me if there was room for 2 in my shirt? What did I do wrong when, at 10, I was catcalled by a group of high school students while walking home from school IN A CATHOLIC SCHOOL UNIFORM (from a very conservative school, which meant that even though it was warm - May or June - I was wearing a sweater or sweater vest and our skirts had to go to the bottom of our kneecaps), with my BROTHER, who, while younger, was a big, big kid. Both of these events took place in quiet, middle-class suburbs, just so that your impulse that I was walking in the wrong neighborhood is soothed. What did Meghann do wrong by walking in the stairwell of her own building and expecting a guy to leave her alone when she told him to (or not harass her in the first place), and then was harassed further by said man in the presence of her boyfriend (and no, Scott, the boyfriend should not "step" to the harasser, he sounds like a stalker and that might be even more dangerous. Building management first, police second)?
And as for Michael, if you really, really want to be able to give women a friendly greeting, then work to stop harassment. A common approach to harassment is to start with a friendly greeting and move on to harassing (e.g., "hey, how are you, can I ask you a question, what does it take to get with a hottie like you?"). For the record, most women will NOT turn and tell you to f-off at a hello, but we certainly typically roll our eyes when it goes beyond "hi, how are you today," because we know what usually follows. I actually find people greeting me in the streets to be a pleasant surprise. Like when I unintentionally made eye contact with a man on the street a few weeks ago and he smiled, but kept walking, or when a woman said happy mothers day to me yesterday in a parking lot (don't know why she thought that greeting was appropriate, nothing about me says "mother," but whatever, I returned the greeting). But you see the crucial difference is those interactions are congenial and have an air of mutual respect, which cannot be expected when, on numerous occasions, you're either greeted with "hey baby, nice rack," or the aforementioned lure in with friendly and then turn harasser. I'll admit that I jumped a little when the man smiled at me, because, even though on the surface he appeared to be a nice, clean cut, friendly guy - someone who I might even want to know - the fact that he was acknowledging me made me think something crude might be coming. If I were never or rarely harassed, or harassed only by the random crazy homeless dude who's easy to spot, I never would have thought that he meant anything other than an acknowledgment of a fellow human being on the same sidewalk.
9:58 am
Some of you'll need not too get the story twisted like u did. U might want to reread the story all over again.
8:01 pm
LOL The kettle, it is black.
Tasha said: Why do you need to respond with totally disproportionate examples? Can we not keep it somewhat realistic here? No where did I say that women should wrap themselves in burlap and remain indoors…I used a very specific example. Inflating an argument using hysteria is usually a sign of a weak one imo.
Um, Tasha. You are the one who compared "naked women parading down the street demanding respect" to regular ole street harassment...
Tasha continues: What I was getting at was the dynamic between perception. The women at the march were happy to bare their breasts as long as it was for a cause, but since they could not control other people’s perceptions, they are pissed. In one scenario walking down the street topless is a socio political statement to be respected, in the other, walking the street half naked is slutty and whorish. Why? The only difference is perception. So if you know certain things elicit certain perceptions, be responsible and either don’t do those things or at least have the maturity to not go mental when the expected happens.
First of all you're confusing funfeminists with feminists, never a good idea. Just because a prostitute into bondage porn claims to understand feminism, doesn't mean she does. When "empowerment feminism" matches patriarchal misogyny perfectly, it's not genuine feminism. Secondly, when a man chooses to make women feel uncomfortable by his own actions, that is HIS CHOICE. It is his choice how he chooses to respond. You seem to have difficulty understanding that concept...
Tasha continues: Ive managed to go a very very long time without being harassed due to my gender or sexuality. I simply dont see this constant barrage of ill treatment that you say virtually every woman needs to fight against every day…
Harassers tend to select their targets carefully, they don't choose the ones who look like they would be flattered by the attention. They also don't choose as targets women who look like they can "take care of themselves". I can't find the post which details my point, but this one gets at it from another angle:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/03/24/why-rape-isnt-one-big-misunderstanding/#comment-51195
8:52 pm
Oh, I don't mean to pick on Tasha as those types of comments are very common -- which is why they needed to be addressed.
8:53 pm
I bookmarked that one btw, it was excellent! :)