The Morning After: “I Agree With Alex Knepper” Edition
What are you smiling about?
Hi, Sexist readers. Welcome to a new daily item, in which I link to the sex-and-gender pieces of note from around the Internets. I'd love to link to what you're reading, as well; file your suggestions here!
* After writing a diatribe against rape victims that begins "I agree with Alex Knepper," romance novel reviewer Rachel Potter has resigned from her spot at All About Romance. Potter claimed that a "reading funk" inspired her resignation; romance fans suspect that it actually has more to do with her claims that slutty women cause rapes against chaste women by "teasing men into a frenzied rage," forcing these men to "vent that rage on a bystander."
* Amanda at the Undomestic Goddess has launched a great reguler feature on SAFER Campus called "Beyond the Campus," which rounds up the week's reporting on issues of sexual assault.
* Amanda Marcotte adds another layer to the discussion of feminine performance-as-labor. In order to conform to the cultural script, women aren't only required to perform femininity and make that performance appear effortless. They must also take no joy in it:
That fashion is pleasurable for many women is why it’s considered “frivolous”, due to the long-standing cultural belief that if a woman is feeling pleasure, something must have gone wrong. So I look to the cultural pressure to look good to explain why women are stuck in this catch-22, where they’re supposed to shop and pull themselves together, but they’re shamed if they enjoy it. . . . That women insist on taking pleasure in clothes shopping while being shamed over it is admirable. It’s not like the world’s greatest act of bravery to continue applying lipstick after a man snits at you that he prefers “natural” beauty, but it does take self-assurance. (Or, if you want to move up a level of bitch, echo Dolly Parton in “Steel Magnolias”: “There is no such thing as natural beauty.") I admire the courage of women who say no to beauty standards, but I also admire the women who decide to take audacious pleasure in femininity. Both are rejections of the restraints of femininity, one of the standards themselves, and one of the taboos against women showing their work or taking too much pleasure in it.
I wonder how this keys into the expectation that women smile for men—are we meant to appear to enjoy performing femininity, but internally take no pleasure in it?
* Alyssa Rosenberg on the emotional space between the music of Madonna and Lady Gaga:
I've always thought of Madonna as kind of the Belle Watling of pop, the woman who despite the fact that she's gotten around a bit, and in fact because of it, understands the euphoria of true love and sexual chemistry. I hope to dance to "Cherish" at my wedding. But while I find a lot of resonance in certain shards of Lady Gaga's lyrics, she's working in an emotional photo-negative of a lot of Madonna's best songs, exploring loneliness, aloneness, heartbreak.
* David Mitchell on the liberal use of the word "empowering":
Having stumbled upon the word "empowering", which can be deployed under so many circumstances—I use it about charging my phone—they've let it trick them into thinking that they've framed an argument.
Photo via Zawezome, Creative Commons Attribution License 2.0
10:46 am
romance fans suspect that it actually has more to do with her claims that slutty women cause rapes against chaste women by “teasing men into a frenzied rage,” forcing these men to “vent that rage on a bystander.”
Which romance fans suspect this?
10:53 am
Here are several romance readers who have commented on the Potter situation: [A, B, C, D].
Not all romance fans commenting on this agree that Potter should have left the site over this, but I've yet to see anyone suggest that her resignation stems from anything other than those comments.
11:38 am
Wow, that lady was a real piece of work. I had to stop reading the comments on her rape apology post when she responded with an off the cuff comment about how she wishes we could "return" to a day when "shaming and blaming" were acceptable. Uh, go check out the comments on ANY article about rape or sexual assault. Since when are shaming and blaming NOT tolerated? Give me a break, lady.
12:10 pm
I don't read AAR, so I'm not familiar with Potter. But I do read a lot of the romance blogosphere, and it really saddens me to see this kind of rape apologism on a romance blog. The blogs that I read have tried really hard to spread the word that (the vast major of) contemporary romance novels are no longer the rape-heavy "bodice-ripping" tomes of the past.
12:14 pm
Having listened to that lady gaga tune I think its more about being attracted to an anti-social type personality, bad boy appeal. You know, when you know you should know better but its hot so you do anyway? Anti-socials tend to be good with sexual currency, seduction and kink, but they will damage you if you get emotionally involved.
The tune can easily be turned into a "rape anthem" but to view it as such you have to buy into the idea that sex a woman chose to have but later is rape. She is UK singer, there isnt the same date rape obsession there and people are fairly relaxed about having one night stands.
12:20 pm
*chose to have but later regrets is rape.
12:20 pm
Another comment to clarify: Most contemporary romance readers eschew bodice-rippers because they almost all depict their victim/heroines as wanting to be raped, and they of course end up happily ever after with their rapists.(I can't speak for all readers, of course, but this is how I have interpreted most people's comments on the issue.) It's a trope that I am very happy to see (mostly) in the past.
12:29 pm
Eo, please stop the blatant rape apologism. It's getting tiresome. WHAT exactly in this song is indicating that she "chose" sex with this man? Here are the highlighted lyrics:
“I wanna Just Dance / But he took me home instead / Uh oh, there was a monster in my bed / We french kissed on a subway train / He tore my clothes right off / He ate my heart then he ate my brain.”
It states very clearly that she did NOT choose sex. She just wanted to dance, and he did something OTHER than what she wanted--that's what the word "but" means. It indicates a contrast between the two clauses. This is basic English grammar, it really shouldn't be beyond you.
Your pathetic attempt to claim that rape is about "regretted" sex is nonsense.
1:17 pm
Um, Eo, Lady Gaga is an American; she was born in NYC and began her career by playing in New York night clubs. So once again, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
Incidentally, I am curious: what about Lady Gaga lead you to conclude she was British? If it was her blatantly sexual performances, that is very interesting, but it says a lot more about you than it does about Lady Gaga or British sexual mores.
2:21 pm
Leftsidepositive.
Id rather you disagreed with me in a way that didnt involve personal attacks.
K, thanks for that, Im not really involved or too interested in mainstream/pop culture. I just assumed she was an english girl, dont know why.. just something about her.. and the same goes for you, its better if we converse politely..the fact that shes american does change the context of it a little, for me. American has a whole culture, industry and political movement built around date rape that doesnt really exist in the UK.
2:23 pm
Eo, great job completely failing to address the topic of my post--namely, the lyrics in NO WAY support your assertion that this was "chosen" sex.
You can whine about being called out on your rape apologism all you want, but if you can't back up your assertions you just look silly.
2:28 pm
This may not be the place to go with this reference, who knows, but I'm growing to believe that Eo is the "Kelly Bensimon" of The Sexist commenters. From Real Housewives of New York City? You know, like starting fights with everybody and never making sense and all the time everyone is just like "....wtf??? Should I be offended or should I just walk away because s/he'd probably just keep standing there not making sense?" anyone, anyone?
2:35 pm
Eo, how disingenuious you are to engage in perpetual rape apology on this blog and then have the nerve to get miffed when people respond in manner that is attacking or impolite. People take it personally when you dismiss sexual assaults that happen to them and the people they love. You can't say that you think rape is crisis manufactured by feminisists and then act perturbed if someone whose life is affected by rape tells you to go fuck yourself. Learn to treat people with respect if you want people to respect you.
3:08 pm
Guys stop attacking me.
Look, Im a "survivor" myself. When I was an early to mid teen for whatever reason, adult women took an interest in me, I have been taken advantage of while drunk and Ive been sexually assaulted by another man. There is no group telling me that these things are the worst things that could have happened to me and so giving me a complex and extra baggage, no group cashing in on me and exploiting these incidents for their own political and monetary gain and there is no group using my experiences as a weapon in a polmic and ideological assault on another group in society.. I dont apologise for rapists. I question the victim culture that hinders recovery and trivialises rape by expanding the definitions, throwing the word around and creating a culture in which false accusations are common.
Look at this, not even islam or christianity outlaw all sex...
DURHAM, N.C., April 7, 2010—Duke University has instituted a new “sexual misconduct” policy that can render a student guilty of non-consensual sex simply because he or she is considered “powerful” on campus. The policy claims that “perceived power differentials may create an unintentional atmosphere of coercion.”
...so by that definition all sex is rape at Duke. Rape hysteria and victim culture is opening the door to totalitarianism.
Moderate people suggesting a more common sense and moderate approach are not "rape apologists".
3:22 pm
Look, I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm glad that you feel you've suffered no ill effects from it. But telling people that their "issues" and "complexes" are the results of feminist ideas about rape and not the trauma itself is deeply offensive and dehumanizing. And it does apologize for rapists because it minimizes the effects of sexual assault.
3:41 pm
I wonder which is more wrong, minimising rape or maximising it for monetary and political gain?
Rape hype is not new, it was used against jews in germany, again by american progressives against black men during the lynchings and nowhere were are again, weaponised rape hysteria.
3:43 pm
You got me there. Rape has me just rolling in money and power. It's so great!
3:48 pm
Eo, if you're so remarkably unscarred by your experiences, why do you have such a vested interest in minimizing the experiences of others? Why are you so determined to label others' assaults as "consensual" despite clear assertions otherwise? Why are you deeply opposed to resources and awareness for victims/survivors? Why are you so insistent on downplaying major risks people face and systematic ill-treatment at the hands of society and law enforcement?
I'd have to say you're either a poser or very bitter about what happened to you and are actively trying to prevent victims you don't see as "good enough" from getting the help they need. Either way, your baseless assertions and hostility to non-traditional rape victims is in itself a perfect example of perpetuating rape culture.
Also, that's a ridiculously inaccurate view of the Duke guidelines. The full policy makes it very clear that the power differential refers to situations where one party is UNWILLING and/or consent is not explicitly asked for:
Sexual misconduct defined. Sexual misconduct is defined as any physical act of a sexual nature perpetrated against an individual without consent or when an individual is unable to freely give consent. Acts of a sexual nature include, but are not limited to, touching or attempted touching of an unwilling person’s breasts, buttocks, inner thighs, groin, or genitalia, either directly or indirectly; and/or rape, forcible sodomy, or sexual penetration (however slight) of another person’s oral, anal or genital opening with any object. Sexual misconduct also includes sexual exploitation, defined as taking nonconsensual, unjust sexual advantage of another for one’s benefit or the benefit of another party. These acts may or may not be accompanied by the use of coercion, intimidation, or through advantage gained by the use of alcohol or other drugs.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.thefire.org/public/pdfs/57a91008373200ebc6f0585a38c65ce4.pdf?direct
So, yeah, totally bullshit assertion on your part that "all sex is rape at Duke." Could you please explain to us again why you're so eager to support the coercion & exploitation of unwilling persons?
3:52 pm
Eo,
Notice, though, that the perpetrators of both of those examples you used were white men, a very much non-marginalized group. Furthermore, the rape hype pushed forward by these individuals was specifically made to ensure their own superiority in the social structure. None of these factors are evident in the situation we're discussing.
4:05 pm
Eo, also, what the fuck is up with tying "progressives" to lynchings? Wouldn't it be slightly more accurate to say, "unreconstructed Southern rebels, Dixiecrats, and Klan members"? Because that group really doesn't line up with the progressive movement AT ALL.
According to Wikipedia, the progressive officeholders in the 1st part of the 20th century were from the following states:
California (4)
Illinois (2)
Louisiana (1)
Michigan (2)
New York (3)
Pennsylvania (3)
Washington (3)
Yeah...that's reeeeeeeeeeally Southern!! Exactly *one* officeholder out of 18 south of the Mason-Dixon line.
4:48 pm
"Look, Im a “survivor” myself."
Interesting use of scare-quotes, there, Eo. How would you prefer to designate survivors of rape and sexual assault?
4:49 pm
Leftsidepositive.
Your american eugenics movement which inspired hitler and planned parenthood which was about containing the growth of "the less productive" in society,sterilization, disfranchisement, segregation, race baiting and lynching are all associated with the progressive movement/era. Its glossed over in your history text books...
and you asked..
"Eo, if you’re so remarkably unscarred by your experiences, why do you have such a vested interest in minimizing the experiences of others? Why are you so determined to label others’ assaults as “consensual” despite clear assertions otherwise? Why are you deeply opposed to resources and awareness for victims/survivors? Why are you so insistent on downplaying major risks people face and systematic ill-treatment at the hands of society and law enforcement?"
Im not, what I question is using rape, rapists and rape victims as political tools to empower and enrich a political moevment and wage an ideological war against another group in society.
I say that tackleing the problem itself, rationatly is better than exploiting / weponising it and that polemic treatment of it discriminates against lesbian and male victims.
None of that means that Im pro rape, or anti-victims or whatever the accusation is.
4:54 pm
Saurs
“Look, Im a “survivor” myself.”
Interesting use of scare-quotes, there, Eo. How would you prefer to designate survivors of rape and sexual assault?"
I consider survivors to have come through cancer, an earthquake, famine or bombing... something life threatening. Attaching the word survivor to a victim of sexual assault is hyperbolic. It maximises for maxium impact, useful to the political groups, perhaps not so for the victim themselves.
4:55 pm
Also, for someone claiming to be a European, you, Eo, seem to have a childish understanding of feminism in ye old Angleterre.
5:03 pm
What does "maximises for maxium impact" mean?
5:03 pm
Not all romance fans commenting on this agree that Potter should have left the site over this, but I’ve yet to see anyone suggest that her resignation stems from anything other than those comments.
Is there any indication that Potter was asked to resign or that this was something she decided following the backlash?
While unrelated to my above question, the phrase "non-traditional rape victims" is by far the stupidest phrase I have encountered all day.
5:05 pm
"Eo,
Notice, though, that the perpetrators of both of those examples you used were white men, a very much non-marginalized group. Furthermore, the rape hype pushed forward by these individuals was specifically made to ensure their own superiority in the social structure. None of these factors are evident in the situation we’re discussing".
Rape hype serves the same purpose here, it empowers white women who are probably the most privilaged group in history, white american women are only theoritically a marginalised group, but they are not actually a marginalised group, not by any stretch of the imagination and white men can be marginalised, Im white and belong to an ex slave race, for example. I have some problems with the world as seen through the cultural intreputation of marx.
5:11 pm
Eo: friend to lesbians and men, thwarter of white American feminist rape hyping cultural interpreting Marxist dirty lynching Hitler sterilizing Gus Hall maximizers! Never give up, dude! Fight the good fight!
5:17 pm
Saurs
What does “maximises for maxium impact” mean?
I mean a group that empowers itself off the back of rape/sexual assault victims has attached a word that is used to describe a person who is lucky to be alive on to the victims it uses to empower itself for effect. I question how this effects a victim.
5:18 pm
I've only been following this site for a short time, so I cannot tell if Eo is a really misinformed person about history or a somewhat eloquent troll :/
5:34 pm
Define "empowering itself." You used that twice. Also, don't forget the rape hyping. Also, why do care what happens to victims of rape if, by your description above, rape is no big thing because it's not an earthquake?
5:51 pm
So, EO, your theory is that people only think rape is harmful because other people (feminists) tell them it's harmful, not because it actually is harmful. And white American women like to tell people that rape is harmful because doing so makes them rich and powerful. Rape vicitms are more damaged by feminists who say rape is bad than by rapists who rape. This is what you are proposing, correct?
6:26 pm
Saurs and Jenny. No and no. Obviously, I dont occupy either of those extreme and ridiculous positions.
Look, Im happy to discuss with you but Im reluctant to respond to games of semantics and adhoc and strawman arguments.
7:07 pm
What's an adhoc argument?
Eo, it's cute that you think you have anything of value to contribute to an interweb discussion. When commenters engage your mad, ahistorical, right-wing paranoia, as they do frequently in many, many other posts, you simply respond with more of the same, over, and over, and over again. Is there anything you've written that you haven't thought to write four or five additional times on this weblog? Deeming any remark that represents beliefs in opposition to your own as "strawmen" or "ad hominem" attacks does not make such remarks so. I gather you don't actually understand what those terms signify, and that you're simply parroting the phrases you've seen because they appear to have some effect in other contexts. In this context, they are invalid and incorrectly applied, and you look both like a hypocrite and an illiterate when you use them. (The same is true when you constantly mis-use the word "empower.") Whinging that you're being misrepresented or attacked also does not make that claim so. If you've got something to say, say it. No one is going to spare you when dismantling arguments you've chosen, more's the pity, to share in a public forum.
7:57 pm
Sexuality? History? Economics? Politics? Grammar? Actuarial Science?
Reading through all this, I'm oddly reassured in a way to find that our Captain Eo is an equal-opportunity-batshit-crazypants!!
10:40 pm
Eo was taken advantage of by a white woman and feels some animosity toward white women, now *that* makes perfect sense.
What happened to you was wrong, Eo, but it is not the fault of every white woman who likes to have sex. It is the fault of the perpetrator who believed the myth of male sexuality, "boys always want sex," which is advanced by the patriarchy.
11:29 pm
Are some of Eo's comments being deleted, by him or someone else?
Eo: I'm a rape and domestic violence survivor who HAS cancer. Please don't tell me which of those experiences I should feel is a greater struggle to overcome. That's up to me to decide, and your assumption is wrong. The same applies to survivors of anything else.
It's entirely up to you to determine whether or not the label "survivor" resonates with you, and how traumatic your experiences were. But you do not have the right to make that decision for anyone else.
Also? Not a white American woman, in case that matters.
11:30 pm
IT'S OK, EVERYONE! I found the "show flagged comments" button. *facepalm*
11:36 pm
Every day, I'm just oddly fascinated by the same rape apologist arguments between the same people on every post. Keep up the good fight, people who are brave enough to speak against the mess of logic thrown out here.
11:56 pm
@bellacoker, well, at least Eo can keep Toysoldier company and they can have a lovely bigotry party!!
12:08 am
LSP:
Yup, sometimes I wish we could receive self-awareness as a gift; because it's hard work and a lot of people just aren't going to take the time to do their own. *shrug*
12:09 am
PLEASE stop giving this kid press. I attend American and trust me, he lives on shit like this. Surely there’s another way to frame discussions about rape besides giving publicity and legitimacy to his ridiculous diatribes.
5:34 am
Hey Bellacoker -
I wasnt directing criticism at all women who happen to be white at all - just the ones that pretend/believe that they are members of a marginalised group and engage in polemic approaches to various social ills, as if they are somehow the only group affected or disproportionatly affected by said social ills.
5:47 am
Yes, Eo, and I was saying that you are directing those criticisms at said women because you feel unable to direct those criticisms directly at the person who hurt you. So, instead, you have found a place on the Internet peopled by beings you perceive as similar to your abuser and let loose here. That's pretty common, but it makes you insufferable.
Also, haven't you heard there was a 3rd Wave and feminism is now concerned with being a Big Tent party. I know it only happened like 18 years ago, but the news should have filtered down to the men by now.
7:35 am
Bellacoker -
changing the meaning of what Im saying or trying to employ shame as a weapon doesnt "win", you are only accusing me of doing exactly what mainstream victim feminism is based around and draws its power from, You can debate me on the points or perhaps you can't, and thats why you are trying to make it personal.
8:03 am
Im retracting what I said earlier about the meaning of that pop song, she is clearly talking about a brush with a predator, an anti-social by the sounds of it.
They (anti-socials) make up between one and three % of the population and are not indicitive of the culture at large.
I think suggesting that the group that promote the fallacy that the actions of a minority of criminals are indicitive of a whole culture or typical of a percieved ememy group in society take on her song as an anthem would be a misrepresentation of the pop songs meaning.
9:48 am
I used to be incredibly antisocial, and somehow I managed to never rape or sexaully assault anyone. I also know quite a few people of varying degrees of antisocialness and again, to the best of my knowledge, know of them have raped anyone.
Now my actual rapists? They were definitely not antisocial. Maybe other's rapists are, but antisocial DOES NOT EQUAL predator. And not being antisocial doesn't mean it's impossible to be a predator.
10:31 am
I *think* that when Eo uses the word "antisocial", what he really means is "sociopath" i.e. a person without the same moral restraints/empathy as most of the species. But I think to label every rapist, ever, a sociopath (altho most probably are) means that rapists are mentally ill who need to be treated, rather than violent criminals who need to be incarcerated.
I'm not saying they can't be both, but not all rapists are sociopaths, just as not all murderers are schizophrenics. This is the same "othering" of the perpetrators we see in the "real rape" vs. "date rape" dichotomy: the rapist is a monster who lurks in alleys with knives, not a nice, upstanding guy who plays quarterback or girl who is president of the law club or friend who volunteers at the local soup kitchen.
I understand the comfort of this delusion, but Eo, it *is* a delusion. People can be great friends, supportive children, successful professionals, and still be rapists. They are not "others", they are *us*. It is a societal problem that can't be eradicated without sweeping social change.
11:08 am
K, if you're correct about EO's definition then that does make a tiny bit more sense, but it is still highly problematic.
First there's what you point out, that "the rapist is a monster who lurks in alleys with knives, not a nice, upstanding guy who plays quarterback or girl who is president of the law club or friend who volunteers at the local soup kitchen."
But also, people with mental illnesses/disorders/what have you, are signifigantly more likely to be the victims of violent crime, including rape, NOT the perpetrators.
11:55 am
I *think* that when Eo uses the word “antisocial”, what he really means is “sociopath” i.e. a person without the same moral restraints/empathy as most of the species.
No, what Eo describes is accurate. It is easy to mistake antisocial people with sociopaths/psychopaths due to the similarity of some of their traits, but both are distinct disorders.
But I think to label every rapist, ever, a sociopath (altho most probably are) means that rapists are mentally ill who need to be treated, rather than violent criminals who need to be incarcerated.
Those who are mentally ill deserve to be treated. If treating them prevents future assaults, that is the best solution. Dismissing their mental illness because that does not fit into your political views is not only delusional, but also dangerous. It ignores the actual cause for such behavior and it politicizes the issue, which leads to ignoring certain victims and certain perpetrators because they are not the "correct" gender and leads to victim-blaming and excusing child rape, as bellacoker did in post #36.
That said, I agree that people should not assume that all or most rapists are mentally ill, which does occur, especially with female perpetrators.
11:56 am
There is a moderation feature now?
12:04 pm
Toysoldier,
Some comments on this site go directly into a moderation queue. If it's the first time you're commenting from a particular IP address, or if the blog software thinks you might be spam (comments with a lot of links are sometimes mistaken for spam), your comment will be moderated. I'm usually pretty good about freeing those comments quickly, but there might be a delay of a few minutes.
2:22 pm
Toysoldier,
What about the "undetected rapist" who otherwise lives a very successful, socially-connected life? What about Ben Roethlisburger? Is he mentally ill? What about all the people (including you!) who tell women "she shouldn't have done this, she shouldn't have done that, she should have done..." to make excuses for rapists? Is taking advantage of a consequence-free environment evidence of mental illness, or of the attitudes fostered by said consequence-free environment? What about Goldman Sachs executives--are they mentally ill? Is it "politicizing" the issue to look at how people operate with a lack of consequences?
And, how the fuck did bellacoker excuse child rape in #36? She very clearly said it was wrong, but also pointed out how Eo's coping mechanisms were damaging and derogatory.
6:27 pm
I think Toysoldier is referring to bellacoker writing that Eo was "taken advantage of" by a woman, rather than raped. The problem, of course, is that in his quest to find fault with something, Toysoldier failed to take into account the fact that Cap'n Eo used that same phrase to describe his own sexual assault in comment #14:
"When I was an early to mid teen for whatever reason, adult women took an interest in me, I have been taken advantage of while drunk..."
bellacoker wasn't minimizing or excusing anything, but simply allowing the victim to describe his own experiences in his own words, rather than denying him his point-of-view. If only Eo and Toysoldier and countless other rape apologists could do the same...
11:39 pm
K: I’m not saying they can’t be both, but not all rapists are sociopaths, just as not all murderers are schizophrenics.
Very few murderers are schizophrenics. A lot of murder victims are, though.
Toysoldier: No, what Eo describes is accurate. It is easy to mistake antisocial people with sociopaths/psychopaths due to the similarity of some of their traits, but both are distinct disorders.
Incorrect. Sociopathy is no longer a recognised disorder at all. While the term is still in colloquial usage (and frequently hideous misdefined) it's not accurate to say it is a "distinct disorder" to ASPD.
Incidentally, there's nothing in the diagnostic profile of ASPD OR the now defunct diagnostic profile of sociopathy that references sexual violence.