Fucking While Feminist, With Jaclyn Friedman
Jaclyn Friedman is, in short, a feminist rock star. She is the executive director of WAM!: Women, Action & the Media. She edited the incredible Yes Means Yes!: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape, and continues the work of dismantling rape culture in her weekly pro-sex column. She writes as compellingly about taking off her shirt for fun as she does her college sexual assault. And she has been fucking under these conditions for nearly 20 years.
Fucking while feminist presents a peculiar set of challenges for the pro-sex single. How do you talk rape culture on a first date while still managing to get laid once in a while? How do you find the feminist guy who won't self-flagellate to the point of unfuckability? How do you avoid dying alone, basically? Friedman agreed to talk to me about establishing a feminist fucking litmus test, the art of locating non-douchey sex partners online, and the secret perks of fucking a feminist.
Sexist: So I was eating dinner with my boyfriend the other day and I started talking about my opinions on rape kits and shit, and I realized that I could probably never talk about this stuff on a first date with someone I had never met.
JF: And if you were me, you would go the a first date, and he would ask, "So, what do you do?" My online dating profile says that I’ve written a book and I’m writing another one. So they ask about it. And then literally ten minutes into a first date I’m talking about rape culture.
How does that usually work out?
JF: The way I hope it will work is that they ask these initial questions before we meet in person. So then they can go offline and collect their thoughts and then respond to me. My profile says I’m a feminist. So a lot of people who would be really scared off by me, we don’t get very far. When the whole Polanski thing was going down, I had this big argument with a guy about Polanski. First date. And last one.
Do you have any feminist litmus tests?
JF: I would like for there to be a set of feminist litmus tests that I could reference and use to find the right guy. Right now, I feel like I'm in an endless cycle of asking myself, "Am I willing to let this slide?" I'm mostly dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me. From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men. I'm not romanticizing that, like "it's so much easier with women"—let me tell you, it's not. But it's a different set of questions you have to ask. I don't feel like I can go in to these dates expecting dudes to know as much about feminism or sexuality studies or rape culture, the stuff that I live my life talking about and thinking about. I feel like I’m going to die alone if I do that.
. . . Here is what’s depressing about dating while feminist. Feminism is what I do with my life, it's how I spend my days, it's my job, it's not just an opinion I have among many other opinions. If I had a hardcore litmus test, the pool of men I could date would be so tiny. And then when you weeded out men who are gay, the men I don't find attractive, the men already in monogamous, committed relationships—really, I would never get laid again. So I do feel that I have to try to be flexible out of necessity. But if I were to end up with someone—and I do want a long-term, stable relationship with someone at some point—they would have to be feminist on some basic level. They would have to be.
Have you ever turned anyone feminist?
JF: That would be lovely, wouldn’t it? If I could turn a man feminist with the power of my vagina? It hasn’t happened yet. . . . When I was younger, I dated mostly women and trans men. Those relationships didn’t work out, obviously, they had their own issues. But the feminist thing wasn’t as much of an issue. And the only cisgender man I’ve been in a longterm relationship was a feminist when I met him. We would have feminism arguments where I was educated by him, and vice versa. And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy! And he ended up being an ass . . . in somewhat unrelated ways.
Is there anything that men can mention in their dating profiles that tips you off to feminist compatibility?
JF: I'm e-mailing a guy right now I really want to meet who used the word "heteronormativity" in his profile . . . aside from that, which almost never happens, more what I look for is. . . you know the Bechdel Test for films? It states that any good film has to have two female characters who talk to each other about something other than a guy. Well, this is my test: When I look at personal ads, I look at their lists of favorite books, movies, and music, and they have to list women in all of those categories. They don't have to have a majority of women, but they have to know that women exist in the culture and be fans of some of them. It's a pretty low bar—or it should be. I used to look for guys who don’t list Fight Club in their favorites, but I've had to relax that rule, because all dudes evidently love Fight Club. I do draw the line at Ayn Rand. It's more about avoiding red flags than anything else. . . . I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who "doesn’t have drama," not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions.
. . . I also have a couple things in my profile that are screeners, that I’m hoping will turn off people I don’t want to be bothered by. I mention feminism. I say I'm a size 16. But I do it all in a flirty way, like, 'size 16 can be sexy," not in a way that says, "I AM ALL THESE THINGS. DEAL WITH IT."
So when you tell people that you’re a feminist, do they have assumptions about what the sex is going to be like?
JF: If you Google me, it’s pretty obvious where I stand on the sex stuff. Whenever I end up talking about my work on rape, I also am immediately communicating that I’m a pro-sex feminist. . . . I have been with some men who are surprised that I am, shall we say, less than vanilla in bed . . . A couple of guys were shocked that I like to play various games in bed, because I'm a feminist. That's always really interesting to me. I'm always like, 'Are you kidding me? The feminists I know are the craziest women in bed you can find!" Those are the moments where I feel like a one-woman feminist PR machine. I'm instructing the world one man at a time that feminists are really fun to sleep with.
So do you meet guys who pass the feminist test but then turn out to be disappointments for other reasons?
JF: Oh God. There is a type of feminist guy who is so eager to fall over himself to be deferential to women and to prove his feminist bona fides and flagellate himself in front of you, to the point that it really turns me off. And it makes me sad, because politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with! You know what I'm talking about?
YES.
JF: Everyone knows what I'm talking about. And some of them are even really cute! I want to say to them, "If you could be a person, like a whole, complicated person, who I feel like I could crack jokes around, then I would really like you." But they're so serious about their feminism at every moment that I don’t feel like a person to them. I feel like I'm on a pedestal, almost. I know that they're not going to disagree with anything I say under any circumstances. And I don't feel like I can make a raunchy joke about sex, because they'll be horrified. . . . I hate to be critical of our allies in any way, because we need them, but there's something about that certain kind of hyperfeminist guy that makes them unappealing to date, to me. I suspect it has something to do with our internal conceptions of masculinity, which is terrible on my part.
I think it's also that they haven't really gotten comfortable with their feminism yet.
JF: Yes. They haven't internalized their feminism, so it’s always being externalized. And it places a lot of pressure on the women they're with. There's this very self-conscious performance of feminism. And it does sometimes feel like they want a cookie. . . . OK, I know this is such a delicate conversation to have, but I want those guys to wake up because those are the guys I want to want to sleep with!
So do you have any other fucking while feminist horror stories?
JF: . . . What happens to me that drives me up a tree is this: The guys who respond to me and are like, 'You’re awesome. You’re kind of a hellcat." They think it's cool and kind of bad-ass that I'm outspoken and passionate about things. They think that’s really hot. They’re into it. But then when that outspokenness gets applied back to them, it’s suddenly game-over. You know the idea of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl? She's light, and quirky, and she has no inner life of her own, and just there to serve our hero’s development and erotic interests. I sort of feel that I get cast in these dudes' narratives as the Hellcat Dream Girl, there to prove how bad-ass they are because they’re dating such a bad-ass woman. They think it’s cute or sexy. But when I use that smart, outspoken bad-assery to challenge their own perspectives, it’s suddenly not sexy at all. It happens when they say something that I disagree with, and I act like a person and not someone that is playing out their particular fantasies.
It’s happened to me a million times . . . they want it as a trophy. "Hey, look at my bad-ass girl." They don’t want to deal with me as a person. It follows this pattern where it usually comes from a person who seeks me out. They try to seduce me. They think I would be an accomplishment to conquer or something. They seek me out and try to get me interested in them, and then I am, and then they flee. . . . I feel like the same thing happened with the guy I dated for two years. He liked the idea of being a guy who would be with someone like me, but ultimately it turned out that he wanted someone who wouldn’t challenge him as much, a person who was easier and quicker to sweep away. I got evidence of that when, within three months of breaking up with me, he was dating a 23 year old who lists her political views on Facebook as "moderate."
Do you ever feel like there's a conflict between your life as a professional feminist and your personal life?
JF: Oftentimes I wonder what the people who know me professionally would think about the compromises I make when I’m dating. I wish this were a live conversation where other feminists were weighing in. I’d like to know what other women are doing. Am I making the right compromises here? Should dating require these sorts of compromises? Is there any tactic that produces better results? . . . I feel very unsure about what the best way is to live my politics and have a sex life. I really feel in the weeds about it. But it's something I think about all the time, and I don’t feel like I have the answers.
Photo by Anh Dao Kolbe
10:30 am
You know I love Fight Club, right? I think it's a companion piece to Susan Faludi's Stiffed, an exploration of manhood in an increasingly consumerist and atomized culture, so ... I think I'm getting different things out of it from the average guy who puts it in an online dating profile.
11:18 am
Thomas, it's because of guys like you that I gave up Fight Club as a litmus test. Because I've learned that a lot of smart, progressive, even feminist guy like Fight Club. But I really disagree. I think it claims to be about some universal "manhood" when it's actually specifically about white, straight manhood, which infuriates me. And women in the book have no agency whatsoever - Marla is some kind of Depressive Pixie Dream Girl, for sure. There's much more I could say, but I don't want to threadjack.
11:35 am
The movie is better.
11:50 am
Is it? I never watched it - my opinions are about the book only. Maybe that's the key?
11:58 am
Your Bechdel test for guys profiles? I do the exact same thing only I list it right out in my profile. Not that it's a definite deal breaker for me, but the guys who message me are put on notice (assuming they actually read my profile) that I do notice those things and will call them out.
Great Jaclyn, now I have yet another blogger I want to be BFFs with and share dating horror stories with. Sheesh ;)
12:10 pm
Me, me, me. Anyone else seems like a tool to build her "bad-ass" attitude. How, um, progressive.
12:18 pm
Yes, Esteban, why oh why would she care about her own reaction to her own dating life. How, um, ... wait, what exactly was your argument again?
12:59 pm
Jaclyn, I also wish there was some guide to dating as a pro-sex feminist. There are the guys who claim to be feminist and use it as an excuse to do whatever they want. The guys who want a strong feminist woman to take control of their lives and excuse them from ever having to make another hard decision. But I've found the great majority of "dateable" guys that are not educated about feminism are not bad men, they are just not aware of what we feminists are working towards.
In my current relationship with a very good man I have taken an incremental approach to explaining what feminism is and how it relates to his life. When we hear a story about "corrective rape" in South Africa on NPR that can become a conversation about the rape culture here. When we see an ad that sexualizes rape, I try to explain how these images normalize violence against women. Why "Law and Order SVU" sucks. Point being, I've tried to show him the world through my eyes. There are compromises; the gender roles are a little more traditional than I would like but he passes my personal litmus test of seeing me as an individual rather than filling the role as an archetype for their personal narrative. I'll take it.
1:14 pm
This is a great interview apart from this piece:
"From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men. I’m not romanticizing that, like 'it’s so much easier with women'—let me tell you, it’s not"
It's so...fetishizing. Trans men are not women!
1:17 pm
basketcasey, I'm well aware that trans men aren't women. "It's so much easier with women" was meant as one example of the the ways queer relationships sometimes get romanticized, not an all-inclusive example. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
1:55 pm
Did you have a hard time finding feminist girls to date? It's something I've had struggles with.
3:02 pm
Well I guess I'd be fucked because I can't think of a single female director who has made consistently excellent films. Also you write off rand, but where does leguin fall?
3:54 pm
"I’m mostly dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me. From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men."
I'm with basketcasey. Specifically excluding trans men from the category "guys"? Not cool.
@Jaclyn: All well and good that you say you know trans men aren't women, but from where I'm sitting you just said they (we) aren't men, either.
Interesting interview. I'm interested in the information gleaned from "favourites," especially the (relaxed) Fight Club rule. It's a shame there's no way of knowing whether someone's appreciation of their "favourites" is uncritical--although sometimes, that can be an informative conversation-starter, I suppose, and finding out exactly what they like about Fight Club an early litmus test in and of itself.
4:17 pm
Duck, I apologize for the lack of specificity. The deliniation I'm trying to make is that, honestly, most of the trans guys I know and/or have dated are much more feminist than the cis guys I've dated. Sloppy language, and I apologize.
5:33 pm
I'd say Fight Club, the movie at least, is pretty pro-feminist! granted, it's a rather complex film, and so the more subversive elements (the homoeroticism for example) fly right over the head of a mass audience. but in general i'd say the movie (again, dont know the book) is about the acceptance/incorporation of the feminine within a masculine identity as a more effective way to resist corporate/consumer culture than the eternal appeal of fascism/masculinity in extremis.
5:35 pm
Have to comment about the Fight Club reference for one reason: Chuck Palahniuk (author of Fight Club) is a feminist. He's friends with Susan Faludi. Fight Club is not automatically anti-feminist. In fact, it's the only thing that got me through being raped.
6:29 pm
I am a man and I HATE Fight Club. I never watch it. I spend most of my time either online, DXing or playing video games.
7:08 pm
Great interview. Fucking While Feminist is just the kind of discussion that should be happening more. How do we reconcile our personal lives with our politics? Should we make some concessions for the sake of getting laid, even when feminism is so central to the way we experience society? This goes for platonic relationships too. Do we "choose our battles," and let "little things" go, or is anything really a "little thing"? Do we overlook some ideological dissonance because the relationship is otherwise fabulous? IMO it depends on the incident(s) and the context.
I second kza's question: Did you have any trouble finding feminist cis women and/or trans men to date? I assume, being queer and experienced myself, that you had some trouble, but different than with cis hetero men.
Related to that question: After this interesting interview, I'd love to see a "Queer Fucking While Feminist" of sorts, that explores those particular set of challenges.
7:56 pm
Hmm sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. They have to agree with you but not TOO much
8:11 pm
Palahniuk may be personally feminist, but I definitely would not call his *work* particularly feminist. There's a lot there to take issue with. I was a bit disappointed with _Choke_ (the film, at least, since I haven't read the book). But a lot of his work does question traditional masculinity and stereotypes (yes, even _Fight Club_) and shouldn't be dismissed outright. I think the Fight Club is less about the fighting itself and more about pain, self-denial, self-destruction/redemption, and struggling with one's body (and mind) and limitations in fundamental ways, and many women can relate to that. I do. And the Fight Club is not the panacea; it turns out to be a joke, a cult. The movie's very dystopian besides for the feeble romance.
Sorry to be the English major party-crasher. Ha.
9:51 pm
"Hmm sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. They have to agree with you but not TOO much"
Ben, doesn't _everybody_ want a partner who is "in sync" on worldview issues? Atheists aren't generally thrilled at dating theists, either. In my country, rugby union fans would have huge issues dating rugby league fans, let alone Aussie Rules or soccer fans. It's called "having stuff in common".
But wanting some level of shared outlook/worldview doesn't mean we want a partner who just says what they think we want to hear, because just humouring us to keep us happy is patronising pat-on-the-head stuff rather than them actually taking our opinions seriously and respecting them enough to discuss and challenge them where needed.
This is basic compatibility and respect stuff, not "wanting to have your cake and eat it too" stuff.
2:38 am
If I had a cake and someone tried to keep me from eating it, a fight club might break out. ;O) -j
3:21 am
I'm a straight male and I think Fight Club (the movie) is awesome. Marla is only in the movie to move the plot along, because this is not a movie for or about women - don't get mad, there are lots of movies to go around.
Fight Club represents the counterpoint to feminism, masculism if you will. Gen X males coming to the terms with the fact we are no longer needed, we have no great struggle and we are mindless consumers. Fight Club is about letting go of all that, embracing the fact we are not special and finding meaning (and that meaning is not found in women). If you were to die today what would you regret not doing?
As for rape culture etc being a difficult discussion in first dates, do what I do: I ignore any woman who asks me before or during the first date "What do you do?" I hate this question, my job is not a reflection of who I am or my personality (and will stay that way unless I get a job as a Dinosuar Cowboy... or Cowboy Dinosaur!). Likewise I have no interest in her job (unless she's a lawyer, because, y'know, gotta fight evil and lawyers).
3:30 am
I think what she is trying to say here is that yes we want to date feminists, but a lot of feminist men, either in an attempt to get in our pants, or because they are not quite comfortable with the whole feminism thing basically go out of their way to bash on themselves and constantly apologize for being born male. I don't like that in a potential boyfriend. Accept your privilege, keep it in check, and move on, but don't expect us to be happy about men hating themselves in the name of feminism
4:39 am
"The deliniation I’m trying to make is that, honestly, most of the trans guys I know and/or have dated are much more feminist than the cis guys I’ve dated. Sloppy language, and I apologize."
So trans dudes are Probably More Feminist Because Of Their Ovaries or something? It's not just the way you worded it, your whole stance suggests that trans dudes are an aside from dudes, and that's fucked up, Jaclyn Friedman.
6:51 am
"JF: Oh God. There is a type of feminist guy who is so eager to fall over himself to be deferential to women and to prove his feminist bona fides and flagellate himself in front of you, to the point that it really turns me off. And it makes me sad, because politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with! You know what I’m talking about?"
"..but there’s something about that certain kind of hyperfeminist guy that makes them unappealing to date, to me. I suspect it has something to do with our internal conceptions of masculinity, which is terrible on my part."
This is humorous because this is EXACTLY the reality on which the whole Game Theory is based. Chapter and verse.
9:13 am
"Gen X males coming to the terms with the fact we are no longer needed, we have no great struggle and we are mindless consumers. Fight Club is about letting go of all that, embracing the fact we are not special and finding meaning"
Max, speak for yourself. Im a single, independent, secure male who doesnt need or want a woman in my life. Im content doing things for myself and doing them well. The few times Ive been involved with women they wind up wanting to control every detail that it has driven me away from them. You can find plenty of meaning in your life as a single person and this goes for men and women. I have many female friends but dont have interest in dating any of them. I see too many guys my age (Gen X'ers as you say) fawn over women and I dont understand why.
10:02 am
Charlotte, please don't put words into my mouth. I'm not trying to say anything universal about all trans men, and I certainly haven't said anything about ovaries or biological determinism. All I'm saying is that, in my personal experience, the trans men I've met have ben much more likely to be feminist-identified or have thought about feminist ideas than the cis men I've met. For what is, I'm sure, an incredibly complex, socially constructed set of reasons.
Which goes a little to kza and Dawn.'s question - I would say it was a *lot* easier to find queer cis women and trans men that were feminist and that I wanted to date than I've found it to be with het cis men. I mean, it's hard to separate - there were a couple dry spells in my 20s where I couldn't find *anyone* I wanted to date who also wanted to date me for a year or two. And I wonder if my standards aren't higher for queer cis women and trans men - because my personal experience has been that there's a much higher percentage of feminists among these two groups than there is among cis guys, am I more easily turned off by a lack of feminism when interacting with cis women or trans men? Possible. Fair? Probably not. Something for me to think about...
11:52 am
Jaclyn,
Your last comment raises an interesting question for me about the demographics of feminist identification. What percentage of gay men identify as feminist? How many women who have only had relationships with men identify as feminist? How many trans het women? Trans queer women? And so on. I'm probably dreaming, but if anyone knows any studies that have broken down feminist identification in this way, let me know!
Amanda
12:22 pm
I'd predict that a high percentage of trans people identify as feminist, mostly because we get to see the difference between being recognized as female and male. It was a big shock to go from being oblivious to my surroundings as a male to being a victim of attempted sexual assault in the same area that I used to hang out in.
12:28 pm
I want to comment on the point of this article, so you'll have to excuse me from the Fight Club/transmen debate. ;-P
Jaclyn, I completely feel you, even beyond the dating. There's a constant struggle to never contradict anything you believe in your daily life, which often ends up being alienating. In reality, we have to make these compromises every day. Our identities aren't free of contradiction; I may consider myself a feminist and laugh at occasional sexism on television (albeit guiltily).
I read somewhere (tvtropes?) that the Bechdel test often passes movies that don't consider themselves very feminist, but because of the limits of the test often these works tend to be just as, if not more, feminist than movies that tote the label. I think it's similar for the men & women in the dating pool. My current boyfriend wouldn't apply the f-word to himself, but I would consider him a feminist simply because of the way he acts.
I think the trick is just to find people you _like_ which is always difficult. Maybe someone doesn't agree with you on smaller issues, but can you get along with that person? Do they support you? Are they pro-choice? Do they respect you? That's what you have to find; relationships of any kind are constant compromise.
2:34 pm
Potential litmus #1:
his last girlfriend isn't an idiot (ask for references)
3:55 pm
Jaclyn,
"And then literally ten minutes into a first date I’m talking about rape culture."
well, talk about it in a less accusatory language. This is something I've only recently understood (I think I have) and some other people are apparently beginning to understand as well - http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/talking-past-each-other/ - much of the problem is *in the language itself*. I think that much of feminist vocabulary is bound to make guys defensive if you haven't spent a couple of months to dissect what exactly you mean by it. If you say "we live in a rape culture", chance are the guy is going to hear "I'm gonna call the cops if you try to kiss me at the end of the night". Remember the "Schrödinger's Rapist" piece? I think it was useful advice to guys, something that is rare for feminist authors, but it was still mostly seen as accusatory. And that, I'd say, is mostly a consequence of the language.
There is a very, very long, and very good, conversation about masculinity and feminism at Clarisse Thorn's blog in which I participated. It took about three months to get to a point where there was a basic understanding of *why* we're talking past each other with particular words in particular contexts and when terms are applicable and when not (http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/manliness-and-feminism-the-followup/#comment-1645).
I think there is a tendency among feminists to underestimate the shaming potential of their discourse. And that, almost naturally, leads either to a certain socio-sexual submissiveness - that you complain about here (I have expanded that in this comment in the mentioned thread http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/manliness-and-feminism-the-followup/#comment-1508 -
"OK, I know this is such a delicate conversation to have, but I want those guys to wake up because those are the guys I want to want to sleep with!"
or affirmative rejection of a discourse seen as unfairly limiting.
Interestingly, a similar question seems to have been part of Clarisse's initial motivation to get into the topic -
http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/questions-i-want-to-ask-entitled-cis-het-men-part-1/ -
"A male friend once wrote to me, “I think you personally find expressions of masculinity hot, but you also have no patience with sexism. You’ve caught on that it’s tricky for men to figure out how to deliver both of these things you need, that you don’t have a lot of good direction to give to fellas about it, and that neither does anyone else.”"
In my opinion, one of the most important issues here is that the general level of feminist advice - you say "wake up" - is not going to help most guys who are looking for a lot more broken down behavioral clues in such situations. And there's not a lot feminism has to offer in that respect, "not a lot" is an exxageration already.
And even when guys are trying to come up with feminism-compatible dating advice - http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/02/24/pickup-and-seduction-techniques-for-feminists-noh/ - a lot of feminist commentators quickly turn to saying how it's sexist to even think about wanting to get into a woman's pants. I'm sure you see how there's a certain inherent contradiction in that discourse.
So I think that the biggest part of the problem is - again - a common feminist desire to have any debate only their terms, potentially to keep the discoursive hegemony in gender matters. But that's not likely to work, and it's probably only lead to more misunderstandings of people who probably agree with each other on a fundamental level.
And, reading this interview as a googleable footnote to your dating profile, could possibly join forces even in more personal matters.
Good luck for finding the one!
4:37 pm
Jaclyn, sorry for not being clearer. what bothered me is that you said "dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me", not "dating cis straight men who are less likely to have been exposed to the feminisms, which is fairly new for me" or a variant thereof. You said "dating guys." you know, NORMAL guys. REAL guys. bros.
I'm sure that wasn't how it was intended at all, but you have to also think about how that comes off to other people... after all I'm told there is kind of a nasty stereotype about trans men being special, sensitive womanly men, or some such, and that's something to avoid. etc. Does that make better sense?
4:50 pm
i love l&o! why does law and order svu suck? (i'm actually interested, i'm not trying to argue!)
4:51 pm
Charlotte, it does make sense, but that's what I understood in the first place when I apologized in response to Duck for being sloppy with my language. Sorry that my apology was evidently sloppy, too!
5:50 pm
"If you say “we live in a rape culture”, chance are the guy is going to hear “I’m gonna call the cops if you try to kiss me at the end of the night”. "
"I think there is a tendency among feminists to underestimate the shaming potential of their discourse. "
Aw, poor babies.
Really...I know you're trying to be constructive, but I hear this sort of thing and I just think, "grow a spine." If a guy's so delicate that a little (or a lot of) feminism sends him off into a whiny little fugue of self-pity and fear...well, that's his problem, not feminism's.
6:07 pm
NoahB,
"well, that’s his problem, not feminism’s."
well, if you say so. But in this case it's also Jaclyn's problem. And to constantly reiterate that something is someone else's problem isn't going to help anyone solve it.
Btw, I didn't say anything about whining, just about perceptions and a lot of guys either *avoiding* this kind of discourse and the people in it or often becoming submissive to female opinion in the way Jaclyn describes as unattractive.
8:56 pm
Do you ever wonder what would happen if you started thinking and acting like feminists and stopped obsessing about 'how women are' and 'how men are' and instead just realized that all people have a lot more in common with each other than they have dissimilar? The idea that certain categories of people are more or less likely to be feminists simply because of their genitalia and/or orientation (het men vs. trans men. vs. gay women)is, in itself, antifeminist. You know that right?
10:32 pm
Thank you for this, Jaclyn (and Amanda Hess/Washington City Paper)! I love your comment about sex with feminists being so great, because I absolutely agree. :-) Also, I'm a big fan of 'Yes Means Yes'; I own my own copy and even got one for a friend.
"And the only cisgender man I’ve been in a longterm relationship was a feminist when I met him. We would have feminism arguments where I was educated by him, and vice versa. And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy! And he ended up being an ass . . . in somewhat unrelated ways."
Your words above ring so (painfully) true to me right now. I just ended a very committed, long-term, long-distance relationship with a man whom I felt exactly the same way about: "And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy" who also happened to volunteer with sex ed, etc. But then he cheated on me with a fellow member of his feminist group at university, whom he also misled. That's just the tip of the iceberg, but it's really made me question the ability to find a feminist ally guy, although I know some, of course! But I'm hopeful, too, and just focusing on my own happiness and will see what the future holds.
While I don't know other than from your writing, I gotta say: any guy (or girl or beyond) would be lucky to date you!
12:04 am
Ryan @15
Yes. Best synopsis I have seen here or over at Iglesia's place, where the film is being discussed in more detail.
One would think that the ending with Brad Pitt/Tyler Durbin character being "killed" and the Edward Norton/Narrator character left standing with Marla watching the symbolic representation of the vacuous, atomized mass society crashing down in the background would make your point obvious.
But beyond that, it's a movie and a large part of its goal is entertainment. And I reckon anyone who says they weren't surprised when the twist is revealed is either not telling the truth or really, really clever.
2:41 am
I tend to go for academic types and have never had to have a peremptory feminist speech before dating a partner. I've always sought relationships with men who have similar taste in music, literature, politics, etc., and the feminism seems naturally to follow for them. I'm not sure why. Sound familiar to anyone?
2:51 am
Posted first at Yglesias's blog in support of Fight Club:
I’m basing this observation on just doing a crtl+4 on this thread, but how did everyone miss that the author of Fight Club, Chuck Palahniuk, is openly gay? My understanding is that at times he has been both a Buddhist and a vegetarian. Not only that, but his father and his father’s girlfriend were both murdered by that girlfriend’s obsessive ex-husband right around the time Palahniuk started becoming successful. His novel Invisible Monsters rips apart traditional gender norms. Fincher, the director, has explicitly stated that the film is meant to be homoerotic, from the bathtub scenes to opening with the gun down Ed Norton’s mouth.
2:53 am
The guys who want a strong feminist woman to take control of their lives and excuse them from ever having to make another hard decision.
Women tend to be extremely contemptuous of men they perceive as weak. In this way, women are just as involved as men are in policing masculinity.
3:49 am
I agreed with most of what Jaclyn has to say, but this stood out to me as just wrong, or at least wrong in many cases, enough to bother commenting about:
"I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who “doesn’t have drama,” not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions."
Jaclyn: You're right, it is a code, but it's a code for "women who are batshit crazy."
I would also opine, and I don't think I am too far out of line in saying this, that bringing up rape culture and insisting on a discussion of it, on every first date, is just not a fantastic way to meet gentlemen. It doesn't matter that Friedman is a professional feminist; being a feminist does not necessitate discussing a very violent and painful subject on first dates, not anymore than, say, being a general surgeon requires that you discuss the finer points of bowel surgery on every first date.
There are just certain topics that you can avoid having be the primary focus of a first date, and this is one of them, and that's that. Period, paragraph.
If a man is interested in a feminist, even after finding out that (gasp! oh no!) she's a feminist and very outspoken about it, that (along with a few appropriate answers to probing questions during an initial conversation) really should establish his bona fides enough, for a first date. He shouldn't have to prove he's the ultimate feminist Renaissance man by talking about rape culture for an hour. Because you know what rape culture is about? It's about RAPE. It seems pretty reasonable to me to note that most respectful guys are pretty uncomfortable with rape, the very idea of it, and it therefore really isn't the most pleasant thing to discuss. We do, as a society, have to discuss it, of course. We need to do so more than we currently do. But this also isn't a good argument for including it as first-date material.
As an aside, it's also one of the very worst ways I can think of to get an interesting sexual dynamic going. Which, uh, last I checked, was one of the frequent goals of first dates.
6:04 am
I had a litmus test for girls too. If you like (Le Fabuleux Destin de) Amélie, it's game over. Likewise, I had to relax that rule as well since inexplicably everyone seems to like it.
On that note: yeah, anyone with an ounce of testosterone in their bodies will love Fight Club, there's no way around it. It's 'cause there's a lot of fighting in there. We like fightin'. Grrr!
10:42 am
NoahB (#37): see, as a guy deeply unhappy with current masculine culture, it's comments like yours that make me reluctant to identify as feminist. (Amongst other things.) Feel any emotions at all? Don't express them, or you're not a Real Man and will get infantilizing attacks like that one.
Between that and the general use of coercive masculinity as a weapon of social control - why do you think the Man Up! campaign is named the way it is? - not going there. (Of course, masculinity has always been just that. How else could you get millions of men to die brutally abroad in pointless wars?)
10:59 am
>I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who “doesn’t have drama,” not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions.
You can send those dudes my way. "Drama" isn't code for opinions; it's shorthand for emotional dysregulation. To me, a man who doesn't want drama is a man who wants a mature, intelligent, level-headed woman who is driven by logic and practicality instead of emotion. Sounds like a feminist-lovin' guy to me!
11:02 am
Well, my partner hates Fight Club (like I do) and loves Amelie (er, not at all like I do) so if we're applying some Bechdel Test Guy Test, I'm stuffed! =)
More to the point, Jaclyn: I hear you in so so many ways. Especially the Manic Pixie Hellcat Status Symbol - "look at me, my dick is so big I can afford to be with a strong woman!". Hah. Hello, ex-husband.
I'd also add that that sort of guy, once you get into a long term committed relationship with him, is actually a synthesis of a trophy-seeking sexist and the responsibility-avoiding Peter Pan woh sometimes masks his weakness and fearfulness with unconditional assent. Because he wants a strong woman who can indirectly boost his masculine credentials, but also take control over his life and all major decisions, and *also* never actually challenge his opinions and prejudices. It's an M.C. Escher tangle of Freudian complexes, and an impossible tight rope walk between having all of the responsibility but none of the power while successfully maintaining the illusion that it's actually the other way around.
As a corrollary to the problems of dating while feminist, I would say that even once you do find someone who is just the right amount of feminist in his actions, in bed and out of it, it's still an ongoing negotiation. I often find that it's myself I have to negotiate with rather than my partner. He never batted an eyelid when I stopped shaving my armpits, for example; but it was me myself and I who went into some kind of crazy gender roles dilemma about cooking and stopped doing it because of too much "do I really like it or am I just conforming" angst. A year later, being bit fatter and a lot poorer after eating out way too much, I've found a middle ground for myself, but my point is that it's not just the man you have to compromise with but sometimes yourself and your own expectations (and separating the feminist ones from the normative ones is no picnic either!).
11:22 am
Not being a feminist doesnt make one a bad person, or someone not worthwile of dating. I dont and never will identify as feminist, read much in the way of feminist writings, etc. but I lead my life admirably and I treat all people with a sense of mutual respect if it has been earned. I agree with Key (#39). Treat people as individuals and dont lump them into all these categories.
1:04 pm
tony if you do not identify as a feminist, then you do not agree that women are equal to you and therefore are not a decent guy.
1:44 pm
I really enjoyed that piece. I completely relate to what Jaclyn Friedman identifies with regards to compromising while dating. In my last relationship, I felt like I was constantly negotiating with myself. He grew very progressive, but his friends were sexist, racist and homophobic. He refused to challenge them, and wouldn't back me when I did. It felt like his 'feminism' was a performance as well. And he too found it sexy that I was strong and "feisty"... until I challenged him and refused to I back down... even when he got in my face. I'm now with a man who is more traditionalist that I'd normally go for. But he loves me as is and we can disagree without me getting angry or hurt. There is a mutual respect that exists even if we disagree. NO relationship will ever be perfect and you'll never agree about everything. As long as the fundamentals are there, the basic values, you love and respect each other... the rest really is negotiable.
1:55 pm
@Mako,
I agree and this is also why I don't identify as a feminist. Comments about female-centered gender norms are constantly attacked, but male-centered gender norms seem to be A OK.
It should be a bit of a wakeup call to feminists that it is so difficult to find feminist men who don't self-flagellate constantly. Create a discourse that flagellates men constantly and the men who buy into that discourse will self-flagellate. Ironically, many feminist women will then find that unattractive since they buy into many stereotypical roles about masculinity and what to find attractive in a man.
@Rebekah,
Except that somehow feminist no longer means simply thinking that women are equal to men. I don't identify with feminism because I dislike the discourse that surrounds it. I don't identify with feminism because of the numerous personal attacks I've gotten from a wide range of feminists because of my sexual preferences. I don't identify as feminist because of the focus on purely womens issues, while treating mens issues as negligible and, in fact, oftentimes exploiting them. I don't identify as feminism because, honestly, it doesn't strike me as being a movement about equality, it strikes me as being a pro-woman movement.
This is, of course, not to say that all feminists or even the majority are deserving of those criticisms. But I've seen enough examples in the community to desire to distance myself from the term. Do I believe in equality? 100%. I'm planning on devoting my life to fighting for it. But despite that I, sadly, don't consider myself a feminist, nor is it a term I would comfortably embrace.
1:58 pm
@Marina...
How exactly would a guy having a girl tell him what to do all the time and take responsibility for his life "boost his masculine credentials"? Indirectly or directly, I just don't see that happening.
2:12 pm
Thanks Tony. What's interesting is that no one should have to 'identify as feminist,' but often this idea persists. A feminist is just someone who believes in equality, so as long as you aren't a misogynist, and you treat everyone with respect and don't treat people differently based on their gender, congratulations! You are a feminist, and you didn't even need to buy a book about sociological theory.
Feminism isn't about knowing and celebrating how powerful and strong women are; it's about knowing that everyone has the same potential to be weak or strong or needy or crazy or stable or interesting or argumentative or patient. We're just people; we all suck, and we're all in this together.
2:55 pm
rebekah: Identifying as feminist is not required to agree that women are equal to men. It also doesn't guarantee anything - anyone can identify as a feminist. (Even being feminist doesn't mean that someone believes in equality for women who aren't white, cis, and having sex in the right way. I personally really distrust the argument that you must identify as feminist in order to be for women's rights, because it's especially popular with feminist whose brand of feminism attacks or erases other women that aren't like themselves.)
6:02 pm
Have you ever dated any transsexual women? how did they fit into your feminist / women are easier matrix? I'm trans - and I used to be feminist, until I came across the transphobic hate from the Michigan womyns festival, radfems, Julie Bindel etc. Now - if that's feminism, I'm out. A festival of cis-sexual privilege and denial, imho.
7:27 pm
I have a litmus test, but not about feminism particularly. If the topic comes up in conversation I pay close attention to how potential partners discuss their previous partners, how those relationships ended and how they distribute the blame.
Super bonus points for being able to analyze personal situations critically and admit and learn from their own imperfections. Complete deal breaker for references to how their ex's are any kind of "crazy," unless diagnosed by an actual mental health professional in a clinical setting.
8:32 pm
@makomk- the definition of feminism is: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men (I got that from dictionary.com). There is no middle ground when it comes to this world. You are either a feminist or a misogynist and that is all there is to it. You are either for womens' rights and therefore a feminist (we don't all have to agree about everything in the movement to still believe that women are equal to men) or you are against them and a misogynist. As I said, while all feminists do not agree about everything, the vast majority of feminists are not like that (I for one do not find anything wrong with an individual person leading their own life the way they so choose, that is up to them), but to say that you are not a feminist is to say that you do not support women being equal and that isn't right.
@nik. I am truly sorry that you have had the disservice of coming across people like that in your life. It is not right and it is not fair. However, saying that the entire movement is to blame for a very small minority of people isn't right either. Also, I personally believe that the gender binary, the sexual repression of the United States culture, etc. hurt men just as much as they hurt women. One of my favorite quotes of all time is "You don't have to be anti-man to be pro-woman" by Jane Galvin Lewis. I live that in my own daily life and I can bet you the majority of feminists do too. I work in a lot of feminist circles and I have come across only a handful of people who truly do not support equality of the sexes in there. I can also turn the argument around and say that I have been chastised and ridiculed by gay men for my feminism, but that doesn't mean that I don't support them in their fight and fight along side them for what is right. The fact is you will run across radicals and extremists in every group, but you don't have to define an entire group of people by them. I can understand not wanting to claim the label because of the stigma behind it. But like it or not if you fight for equality you are a feminist. Please reconsider your stance and not let a few extremists hate you into a corner where you can't fight for equality
10:33 pm
Refusing to call yourself a feminist because some women who call themselves feminists are not perfect non-prejudiced beings is ridiculous. We are all blinded by institutionalized sexism, racism, classism, privilege, etc. Every feminist has to work through these things and it is a life long struggle. My friends recognize me as an outspoken feminist and they are constantly asking me for a black and white answer and I have to keep reminding them that I DON'T KNOW. How could I? Instead of rejecting feminism, why don't you point out how their prejudices undermine equality?
Btw Amanda. Thank you so much for this interview! Jaclyn Friedman is amazing and I've read/referred to her book and articles many times. Always informative.
2:32 am
@ Rebekah:
As a (straight, cisgendered) man who has problems identifying as feminist, I feel like this type of comment is damaging sometimes. There is a large gap, I think, between identifying as feminist and (wanting to) be for womyn's rights or equality or even the elimination of gender binaries as a whole. I've read feminist theory some, read feminist blogs some, and thought a lot, and the conclusion I've come to is that I'm not currently at a place where I can do the kind of analysis or thinking that is necessary to be an effective feminist. Don't get me wrong - I am emphatically pro-feminism, probably to the extent of being one of the emasculated guys (luckily for me, my girlfriend still likes me, although I struggle with how to deal with the fact that she isn't especially feminist, although she understands a lot of issues better than me because she experiences them in real life.) Despite feeling like I want to be a feminist, I feel like I can't be welcomed into the club - that's OK with me, but making me out to be misogynist probably doesn't help the cause. And, maybe I'm a minority. Maybe I'm being a little too sensitive on this issue, and should just call myself a feminist to support the cause. But I have problems with the defense of a word when it alienates people who are working on positive things but not identifying as feminist. That doesn't mean that you can't call me a feminist - I would be honored if somebody did that - but it does mean that those kinds of questions are a problem.
@Bellacoker - I like your test, but I would hesitate in trusting the medical establishment at being able to draw hard and fast lines as to what constitutes sanity. I do have an ambivalent relationship with assertions of "crazy" in women, though. Obviously there is a gender thing there, probably related to the whole hysteria thing that happened historically, but there are also people who are not emotionally stable in ways that makes them really hard to date, whether they be male, female, or neither.
With regard to the actual discussion, like I said before, I'm probably one of those emasculated* feminist men, and my feeling is that it probably is because of a feminism that isn't fully internalized. Maybe if I think about things more and feel confident in my understanding of what my actions mean, I'll question them less and feel more confident in my actions, especially the ones about feminist topics. But until then, this is still a relatively new set of ideas for me. Like I said, I'm lucky, but I do think that emasculated* feminist men are probably people who are in a stage of growth that would benefit a lot from a relationship with a strong feminist woman over the long term. But that doesn't mean that a strong feminist woman could or should deal with them/us for that period of time.
2:59 am
(Sorry for double-post. I just realized that there wasn't an edit feature, and remembered that I forgot to clarify my asterisk.)
*Emasculated is probably not the best word for this, and I am using it while recognizing that, for lack of an immediately available (in my head) better word.
3:59 am
The Hellcat trophy wife/dream girl is so on point. I have that experience with an added twist: I am an American living in a Muslim country research women's empowerment.
I was dating this man who was sweet enough who just loved that I had tattoos/piercings and short hair and could hold my own in a conversation and could travel alone and argue for what i believe in and hold my whiskey and am pro-sex. His friends loved me for that reason too, I was alternative to the extreme.. complete opposite of the women that surround them who are quiet and stay indoors. I'm loud and interesting and fun.. but a handful. With these abilities to be feminist and exist in the world, we think so much, feel so much but have the courage to SAY IT. But.. he kept saying that he liked all these things about me: that i'm alternative and outspoken, which I am proud of these traits.. so I fell for it.. thinking that he liked me for me.
When there came a point where i was not happy with how the relationship was going (we didn't see each other enough) and spoke about it.. he couldn't handle that. All of sudden, he shares that he's in love with someone else, this local girl who he calls once a week and sees once a month. He liked how i'm a fun handful but once i'm a sad handful, it ruined his fantasy--there's work involved. But he went back to the type of woman he is supposed to like: the traditional woman who stays indoors and doesn't speak out for what she wants. The women here in relationships get walked on, even pre-marriage. The man goes out and does what he wants and expects his polite perfect little woman to stay at home waiting for him. They expect their women not to have REAL problems, not to complain about the relationship or have weaknesses or disappointments, the women must keep it inside or only tell other women.
I quote Marilyn Monroe: you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.
9:45 am
What I love about this interview is that Jacylyn made a seemingly honest - but also casual - venture, out into a realm that isn't talked about much in the feminist (let alone mainstream) media.
Give her a freakin pass on "sloppy language"! When someone steps out and says some contoversial stuff - when someone gets interviewed and actually gives some raw inner conflict and some personal truths that aren't fully developed with fully sensitive grammar. Come on!
Are we gonna cut down every person can't stream highly-evolved pro-feminist perfection from their mouth?
This was a conversation to which you and I were given the privilege to be privvy. Take what you want and leave the rest.
I appreciate her words - however imperfect.
10:05 am
i'm with Key. throw out your screening process.
seriously. kill it.
go out with anyone who's brave enough to ask you. ask out anyone you find yourself attracted to.
have conversations—and not pre-determined ones. don't think 'i have to find out where they stand on these issues.' just be you. and let them be them. that's the most equalizing thing you can do.
and then if you don't get along, that's fine. yes, some things you probably still will never be able to get past a first date without discussing, but that's alright, because that's you.
there is no litmus test. there's connection or there's not, and anyone who gives an amazing first date 100% of the time is lying. no, you may not want to date a 'jarhead', or so you think—but that same person may have motives which aren't misogynistic, and which aren't easily discernible from the things in their profile that discount them in your screenings.
you want people to not cling to feminist stereotypes, as a feminist, so you should stop clinging to your own stereotypes as well. stereotyping goes beyond bodies and bedrooms.
11:31 am
leif.johnson. Congratulations you are a feminist. Not accepting the word does not mean you are not one. Accepting the word itself takes time, I understand that. What I have to say though, is welcome to the club! Now lets get you to a point where the word isn't something for you to beat yourself up about
11:49 am
Jaclyn,
You do rock. And you're cute. Smart cute and pro equality...what dating site are you on!?
12:30 pm
rebekah: and technically that's an accurate definition. The problems generally come when you look at how "rights", "equal" and "women" are defined. All too often, "women" means "women like us"*, "rights" means "rights to do the stuff we think you should be able to do", and as for "equal"... that can mean a lot of things, but commonly it's what a narrow group of women believe it to be based on their own experiences and needs. (Other womens' experiences are assumed to be the same, and as for men's experiences, the women doing it magically know them all via some kind of cultural osmosis.)
Radical feminists are by far the worst in this regard, usually doing all of the above, but more mainstream feminism isn't that great either.
* Trans women are explicitly stripped of womenhood. Women of colour are just ignored. Sex workers are treated as victims, and attacked if they reject that role. And so on, and so forth.
1:39 pm
makomk- okay I can appreciate that. And yes I know that everyone defines these things differently, so let me give you the definitions I use.
Woman- a person whose gender expression is more feminine than masculine, or any person who identifies as such
rights- the things that our government is not constitutionally allowed to take away from men, but that are constantly under attack for women. This includes bodily autonomy, right to defense, innocent before proven guilty, etc.
equal- egalitarian under the law, not given privilege over another human being
When I say I don't support discrimination, I mean it. Trans women ARE WOMEN FOR GOODNESS SAKES. Now I know sometimes people use this as a way to say oh I am not fill in the ism here, but that is not what I mean by this next statement. I am friends with quite a few transgendered individuals (both women and men), and because they know I do not support discrimination of any group of people, they often come to me with the discrimination problems that they face. It sickens me to think that we can other and therefore treat another human being in the way which they are treated. Skin color is the most ridiculous thing to hate on someone and think that they are less than you are that I have ever heard. Racism is the most despicable and horrendous thing that human beings have ever come up with. So what someone has darker skin than you, that does not speak to their character, what they do with their life etc. It is not okay and I will fight it along side the sexism until my dying breath. In some situations sex workers are victims, I recognize this and accept it. I also accept the fact that if sex work was legal that it wouldn't happen as much, that if our society believed that women are capable of making their own decisions and should be empowered to do whatever they want to do, then we wouldn't have so many of the problems that we have, and on and so forth
4:18 pm
I suppose, as a feminist, I hunt out men who just generally have an open mind, so discussions are fruitful and productive. But that only works if it goes both ways - I try to keep an open mind as well, because as important as feminism is to me, my opinions aren't necessarily better or worse than another's, just different.
6:22 pm
Manning-- I believe your comment about either being a feminist or a misogynist is exactly the kind of criticism that drives people away from the feminist movement. I've recently decided to divorce feminism and focus my efforts on gender equality (much like many of the posters on this article). The term "feminism" itself contains a gender bias, therefore I feel it is a contradictory term.
Also I'd like to point out some of the problems in your definition of the word "woman". More feminine than masculine? According to whom? And exactly how do you define "feminine" and "masculine"? Anyone who identifies as such? So if Barack Obama started calling himself a woman that automatically makes him one? Do you see the problem with insisting a person or people subscribe to your lexicon?
The "my way or the highway" attitude does not further the cause of gender equality. It gives the REAL misogynists ammunition because they can pick out comments like this and then falsely represent those of who understand the world is not so just black and white.
If more "feminists" would listen to the ideas and opinions expressed by gender equality advocates who have rejected feminisim's incredibly gender-biased moniker I'll bet they would learn more than they currently do by attacking us. When the term "feminism" was coined gender was still considered to be a simple question of Man or Woman. Our consciousness has changed such that gender is beginning to open up, to become more flexible, and less binary. That's a good thing. The discourse around gender-based issues and controversies should reflect this progress, rather than slander it.
6:47 pm
“From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men. I’m not romanticizing that, like ‘it’s so much easier with women’—let me tell you, it’s not.”
Just wanted to echo others' sentiments. That is kinda busted. You can argue all you want, but there's a reason you let that slip...
7:10 pm
What a lovely interview and conversation. It's refreshing to see people conversing in an open and direct manner, not being offended by each other's views, and coming to a greater harmony. May your understandings and eloquences increase!
Drift in language is an interesting phenomenon. People writing and speaking a language change it from the original idea to suit their purposes in re-expressing the idea; sometimes this is perhaps superfical ("more kind" instead of "kinder") with no change in basic meaning, other times it's a more subtle issue of context. With feminism, this is only part of the confusion.
When talking about it, we might be referring to a) the original expression of the idea, b) some correction, expansion or new direction of it; c) common, simplified and/or steretypical understandings of feminism as applicable to each instance; d)a certain, subjective experience of the actions of "feminists" (and even here, this could be a person representing the "true" philosophy of feminism or somebody who only claims the title); e) an assessment of the actions of feminists (which might well restrict itself to those who have been called or call themselves feminists, not everyone who promotes feminist values); f) the honest and true philosophy of feminism (declining to debate the existence of such); or g) something else besides all this. Uh oh, something -ism this way comes! What on Earth are we even talking about?
Bob Marley says it best: we're sick and tired of the -ism schism. He was referring to religious matters, the "we're the only ones who are right" mentality, but it is just as applicable, since the contextual drift in our discussion seems inevitable when an -ism connects itself to an important human issue.
Some of it comes from the nature of discussion itself, that is, people coming from seperate (dissonant) viewpoints and developing a new, harmonious one.
I'm very excited about a coming such shift, rather than drift, in "feminist" language, which will remove the quotations just placed around the word: from the old, unsatisfactory language to a new set of words which reflects more truly the objective of feminism. "Guys/dudes, girls/chicks" "gay/les/queer/trans," and "cis!" why, I just learned that word today! Do you know how I feel, though? I have no idea what any of these words mean. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone (claiming to be feminist, not, or neither) who has been able to tell me What Feminism Is.
I don't like to get worked up about something I don't even understand (I find it distinctly unhelpful), and it's common when people talk to me about feminism that their words make only limited sense to me. I ask them questions and they seem to become confused, defensive, and they might often (if only subtly) mistake this questioning for opposition. This is, in almost every case, a result of their using old tools for a new job -- that is, old and unsatisfactory language to try producing new and satisfactory results. Einstein (apparently... I've never met him in person) understood something about relativity, and said that a problem can't really be solved by the thinking which created it.
I could call myself a feminist and be happy with it, but I don't if it invokes in my conversation partner(s) some kind of Ism Schism. Don't show your poem to a non-poet, it has been said; don't trust fools with your heart. People can call themeselves feminists and be fools with your heart, for sure.
I grew up with no dialogue regarding sexuality until I hit the appropriate age. Everyone spoke in their turn, treated each other with respect, helped solve each other's problems. All those people are "white" and "straight," whatever those words mean. I call them "family," and I have been searching for anyone who can hold an joyful, open, loving space while still solving deeply intrinsic human problems. All of these words (all potential isms) seem to be distracting people from the reality of the human situation. I say these things should rather be spices for the pot, not chemicals which react and possibly explode.
I grew out of this, into a "cis, straight, white male." I had some relatively common sexual experiences when they began. I had erections before I understood them, and dreams about pleasure that I didn't question. I started to date, and I dated "women." My first date was in seventh grade, with a much darker-skinned "woman" who approached me (I don't know what "she" refers to "herself" as these days). My parents told me I was brave to go on a date so young, and I blushed. At that age, I didn't have any prejudices about these pronouns, they were sometimes useful in conversation. I just looked everybody straight in the heart because I wanted to know what they were made of.
What's the point? I went out with that girl because I was honoured that someone was interested in me. People get lonely and they want company, and isn't that life? When a person provides something deeper than simple company (which can be of all kinds), isn't it precious?
When we meet someone who completely, objectively, humbly gives us something we need free of strings and prejucide, what can we possibly equate that privilege to? What kind of gauge can quanitfy elation, what kind of equation could I possibly employ...? I listend to Ani D and she helped me get through a few days. That was my litmus test, now I can't help but love her too.
Isn't that what women, womyn, however they would like to be called, when and how they would like to be called, are asking for, for the "men" of the world to "stop being such dicks" and give them something they really need for a change? Love is a power that burns away ism schisms and other demons, and I ain't selling snake oil.
There is, however, too much confusion in the general population at present to come to any overnight solution. I would even settle for a "swift" solution, but many men seem to prefer acting like jackasses and pretending it's a happy lifestyle choice. There is much confusion in men and women, some of it gross, some of it subtle, not arguing too much about how it is distributed, but it would be really helpful if people understood that: we are all human. I think someone above this post said "we all suck, we're in it together" or something to that effect. I loled when I read it, for real I mean. We're in it together, even if we all suck. We can all kick ass, too.
Yes, "suck" and "kick ass" are loaded terms, so I must trust in the reader to meet me half-way. Balance, perspective, equanimity, we need all these to bring Love into the world right now. We must ripen the conditions of it's fruiting. Nobody will regret it, and I don't say that in the spirit of "No Child Left Behind," or any other garbage uniformity. Nobody regrets meeting Love. That's why she's Love.
Thanks for reading, even if you didn't make it far enough to read this!
7:39 pm
@leif:
I agree with you about the medical establishment.
I've always thought that the application of "crazy" to women is a way to explain our actions while not accepting that we have the same type of intricate mental life that men do. So, when a woman does something that a man doesn't understand instead of trying to figure out her motivation he assumes that she must have no rational motivation at all.
10:27 pm
Drawing the line at Ayn Rand is smart, as Rand is more than a line, she is an alarm. If anyone takes her even the slightest bit seriously they are insane.
10:58 pm
I just asked my husband if he considered himself a feminist and he said "Well, I have clearly failed at controling and oppressing you, so I might as well take the credit for being a feminist!" seriously though, he is supportive of women's concerns without hoopla and will call himself a feminist without reserve but also without looking for a medal of honor. He's not hung up on the name. It is about empathy. I think men who are feminist are other "-ist" as well. It is a package. It is about being able to appreciate the emotions, thoughts and feelings of another without necessarily having experienced the exact situation to know it was shitty (or awesome, or whatever). He'll point out complicated injustice toward women, but that social sensitivity also means he sees it in other groups as well and will voice those too. Injustice might come in different colors, but it all ultimately tastes the same.
I don't think we should have to "settle". I don't think that asking a man to be empathetic and authentic is too much to ask. Sheesh.
12:44 am
alex. I don't know what part of "if you believe in equality you are a feminist and if you do not you are a misogynist" you don't seem to understand.
If barack Obama was to get on the television and say that he is really a woman then yes he would be a woman. Only the individual person gets to decide what gender they belong to.
The word feminism doesn't imply a gender. The term was actually coined by people against the movement to try and label it as "only women do this so we shouldn't care" mentality.
Further, you are falling into a misogynist trap of calling me by my last name. my last name is not my name it is the name granted to me by the patriarchy. Please do not refer to me by a name that does not belong to me. The only reason my last name shows up is because I have my comp set to automatically fill in the bubbles with the info that it is asking and since I often have to use my last name it always shows up there too. That doesn't mean I want to be called by it, or that you, a person who does not know me has the right to do so.
12:49 am
alexander the relentless- I already defined this for you
feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
I do not know how much more simple I can make this for you. I also really like this, and since you really don't understand what feminism is, I think you will too.
"I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute." ~rebecca west
Does that help a little bit more?
feminism to me is not just a word. The word is important, but it has importance because of the meaning behind it.
1:23 am
Hmm,
So, I'm kinda understanding what Sam(#33) and Mako are getting at here. There does seem to be a trend of thought of a lot of feminists that they want guys who are really keyed into feminist thought, but also still adhere to classic masculine stereotypes. Or at least, I can see how it can come across that way to guys.
The 'Aw, poor baby' type lines are things I have been questioning a lot lately. Even the 'feels like they want a cookie' type lines. Well, maybe they do want a cookie. Maybe after being raised in a culture that deeply normalizes and invisiblizes male privilege it's pretty difficult managing to see past it, and doing so, they would like a little approval.
One of the more damaging aspects of patriarchy, to both men and women, is the intense pressure on men to never show any kind of vulnerability. To never show uncertainty, to never obviously seek out approval.
Women in this culture are raised to be approval junkies, really. Getting past that is one of the hurdles of many a young feminist woman. I find myself still checking this automatic impulse. But one of the traps here is trivializing that desire. Heck it's one of the manners that femininity is coded as lesser then masculinity. And it's certainly coded as an awful type of desire in any man.
Responsibility is also classically coded as masculine. There is a subtle but important difference between this and duty/obligation which are coded feminine. Some of the Peter Pan syndrome we're seeing seems to be clumsy attempts at breaking free of this coding. One of the levels on which it is clumsy is that duty/obligation is coded as undesirable, almost universally, so irresponsible men don't often pick up that side.
In a system where male is coded as strong, assertive and generally better, and female coded as weak, submissive and generally lesser, it is generally more painful to be forced into the female category. But it is also more obviously understandable to want to break free of those restrictions(though not necessarily acceptable to actually do so). It's far harder to get a reading on what breaking free of masculinity actually looks like, or why someone would want to do it, or why anyone would want to be around someone who wanted to do it.
I do realize that feminism is about more then breaking free of confining gender roles. It's a lot about systematic male power, and the abuses of that power. But I think that gender roles are pretty tied up into that.
Nor am I recommending anyone dating an emotional cripple. But a guy who's a little too earnest, too approval seeking, too emotionally sensitive, a little too eager to foist decision-making onto someone else? A little too much like the female that society tried to tell you to be, that you rejected? Maybe worth a shot. Especially if they are taking seriously the desire to please, and learning how to be supportive. And learning how to be ok with being disagreed with, with being wrong sometimes(a big problem for many).
There are some real advantages in society to being female, but because they are all coded as lesser, and all forced upon women in such overwhelming doses, they are virtually impossible to see as advantages. I feel this is a big part of the constant conversation I see, where a woman complains about something, and a guy responds 'why does that bother you? I'd enjoy that from a woman', or 'I'd take it as a compliment'. It's easy to say 'no, you wouldn't', but how do you know, have you ever not had it forced upon you? Have you ever been without? More, have you ever specifically been that person, seen the world through their eyes?
There is an aspect of feminist discourse that seems to say 'we don't owe men anything'. An understandable rejection of the classic female role of a duty to please men. But feminism is asking something from men. And a lot of feminist discourse seems to contain the notion that men have -all- the power and advantages, and therefor asking any compromise from the female side is unacceptable.
But I hear men asking for rights and privileges that are -specifically- female, specifically in the context of het relationships. The right to be emotionally sensitive. To be a 'wimp' sometimes. To be delicate. To show fear. The right to seek approval, to be vulnerable. And mostly, the right to do these things without being told to 'grow a spine', to man up. And not be teased, or thought of as less of a man.
And it's in women's interest. Because teasing a guy for classically feminine behavior reinforces all the childhood indoctrination. That men must be MEN. That 'masculine' is superior, and the worst thing a man can be is 'feminine'. And by that, it's a short step to an underlying subconscious(or even conscious) notion that men are simply better. That women are lesser, subhuman even. And that just leads us right back to rape-culture.
2:46 am
This article is so useful...whenever I am horny and don't want to be, I will think of this article.
Women: don't be like this loon.
5:24 am
All I can say is that there is a reason she is still looking and will still be looking as her expiration date arrives. Her list of what she will accept/tolerate is long enough to exclude about any real heterosecual male out in the dating scene. Why would a normal sane guy subject himself to her tests?
7:10 am
You might be missing out on some good men, who may not do well with heavy, controversial issues on a first date, feminist or not, and back away. Some guys blossom. Kindness and an open mind/heart are essential. Do we need to vomit our entire political stance all over the appetizers? If you asked my guy to debate feminism, he would probably not do well....but his actions over time speak for themselves......these cannot always be quickly ascertained on a first date.
10:50 am
Interesting read, but are we celebrating the poor language about trans-men, the stalking other people's f/b pages, or that she's insulting another woman for being young? Good for her for getting rid of an asshole, but what's his new girlfriend got to do with anything? I'm 25 and a political moderate. Am I old enough to be a challenge to someone, or am i still easy and quick to sweep away?
12:56 pm
Amber...I consider myself a feminist, and have to say, I think Law and Order SVU does alot to raise awareness about rape, and isn't all just about women being victims. The character of Olivia Bensen for instance, is strong and independent but also flawed like a normal person, and the people who have had rape perpetrated against them react in a variety of different ways...I am therefore curious as to why you think Law and Order SVU sucks...
1:36 pm
Everything DanceDreaming said.
I'm not saying any of the problems men have from the current culture are remotely as bad as what women get, because they're not, but denying the existence of any problem at all serves no purpose but to alienate people who would otherwise support you.
3:06 pm
Dancedreaming really, really nailed it in 79 above. She's several levels beyond the OP in thinking about the real issues here.
6:44 pm
dancedreaming, i think moby is still single.
7:40 pm
Jaclyn, I think that the issue is less about integrating one's feminist identity and more about being fun to be around. Screening, rules, and “heteronormativity” are not fun. Dating a bad-ass, sexy hellcat is fun. Dating someone who constantly challenges your perspectives isn't so fun. You sound a little wounded when you talk about being treated like a trophy, but guys just don't think about it that much.
1:49 am
Adele,
I could go into the problematic elements of L&O, but I feel this is a kind of inappropriate setting. It would be hard to describe without getting seriously into conversation about rape culture, and I feel like that would reduce the potential this thread has for other topics. At current, talking too much about rape culture does seem to create a confrontational space, specifically for guys who want to get it, but don't yet.
Not that I'm saying anyone should tailor one's speech specifically to guys needs in feminist space. But this conversation particularly seems to have reconcilliatory potential.
3:03 am
DanceDreaming: I agree with what you're saying in theory, but did you ever think that many feminists say these types of things because they themselves are strong women and therefore they demand the same of men? Whether they are dating them or just having a conversation about feminism with them? I guarantee you it's damn near about close to 100% due to this and not because of ingrained sexism against men thinking they should be tougher. Feminists and those critical of systematic injustice in general be it in regard to race, gender, or class, etc. will always hold a more no nonsense tone with those who have privilege.
5:13 am
Oh, as a side note, to those folk that are arguing 'this is why you can't get a date', I don't think she actually said anything about any trouble finding a date. She's having trouble finding men that live up to her personal standards of what she wants in a guy, and trying to figure out what areas of this she's willing to compromise, and what areas she's not.
Also, expiration date? Ew.
11:36 am
I love this interview -- this whole blog -- so much I might actually shed tears if I weren't in an open plan office pretending to write about soft drinks.
6:42 pm
From Jaclyn: "The guys who want a strong feminist woman to take control of their lives and excuse them from ever having to make another hard decision."
From MQ above: "Women tend to be extremely contemptuous of men they perceive as weak. In this way, women are just as involved as men are in policing masculinity."
MQ, I think you're right about this. Men (as you say) feel this way too; it is a long-standing cultural bias. That being said, I know that I'm not as interested in being in relationships with weak people, people who won't stand up for themselves in the relationship. I'd much rather be with a strong person, regardless of gender, planet of origin, etc.
I was born male. I wanted to be a dyke in the worst way, for years, but I finally got it that I'm fond of the plumbing I have and am not interested in getting my physical sex re-assigned. (Thinking about it now, I may be a dyke, but not a woman. That's an interesting thought. Is there dykeness separate from femaleness? Another discussion. ;)
At any rate, I was a feminist washrag for years. Yes, being a man and being feminist takes a certain amount of guts. You're consciously trying to subvert the dominant paradigm, and could pay for it in all sorts of ways. However, I found later that part of the reason I was there was to find a safe space to recover parts of myself that I'd lost in childhood. Yes, I'm primarily heterosexual, and wanted at least one relationship with one woman. But I was overly deferential, and not only did the women I was with not appreciate it, I felt awful about myself when I acted that way. At the time, I didn't know how to stop, but it was still my responsibility.
Jaclyn, you say above "but there’s something about that certain kind of hyperfeminist guy that makes them unappealing to date, to me. I suspect it has something to do with our internal conceptions of masculinity, which is terrible on my part." Well, it may have something to do with that, and you need to be responsible for your actions and feelings. However, being once the man I described above, and now a man in a fabulous, committed, ballsy relationship with a woman, I'll say this for myself: If I'm a weenie, and you don't want to date me because I'm a weenie, your decision not to date me is your responsibility. My weenie-ness (regardless of gender) is my responsibility. Not yours.
p.s. - thanks for doing the work (and play!) that you do and not giving up on us whole-hog! ;) I did once (give up on men), but no more.
p.p.s. - fabulous convo here! Thanks, all!
Best,
Ian Carruthers
Filmmaker
http://www.foolishtreefilms.com
Let's make a movie!
11:38 pm
DanceDreaming: I agree with what you’re saying in theory, but did you ever think that many feminists say these types of things because they themselves are strong women and therefore they demand the same of men?
There are many kinds of strength. Accepting a definition of strength centered around leadership and toughness is more problematic than you seem to realize.
Feminists and those critical of systematic injustice in general be it in regard to race, gender, or class, etc. will always hold a more no nonsense tone with those who have privilege.
you can be as no-nonsense as you like, but don't be surprised if people don't find it romantically attractive.
1:16 pm
As a feminist (or pro-feminist, I don't really want to get into the argument) straight, cisgendered dude, I find it kind of interesting that I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. I'm in a long term relationship now with someone who is awesome, but I ran into similar problems when I was dating. I mean, a lot of women who are into feminism but are kind of new to the idea seem to have the same thing where they're, as you put, externalizing feminism instead of just trying to live it.
Most of my interests, my hobbies, are political. Activism is what I do in my spare time. I can definitely sympathize with how hard it is to do the first date thing when the answer to "what did you do last weekend?" is something like "Well, I got attacked by a cop," or "I watched a documentary about prison rape." Not cheerful stuff, but what's the point in dating somebody that you can't talk to about your life?
Or you meet women who like the idea of dating feminist guy in theory but actually want a relationship that's pretty traditional, whereas I want a relationship where we both have our own things that we do, you know. To me a really important part of a pro-choice relationship is that you CAN rely on each other with becoming all creepy and co-dependent. You can blame culture or patriarchy or whatever, but a lot of women, even women who identify with feminism, have this idea that an ideal relationship basically should be creepy and co-dependent. That's not what romance is to me, and once I figured out what I was actually looking to get out of a relationship, the rest wasn't as tough.
10:42 pm
Jennifer:
As Marc200 mentions, there are many kinds of strength. And I think that there are some people that are going to be strong in ways, just naturally, that others aren't. And I think there is a particular strength in owning one's weakness.
I also feel like wanting to play a supportive role is a valid, and valuable position. And the idea that because one is a strong woman, one should therefor demand the same kind of strength in a partner is...odd. And the undertone of weakness:bad/strength:good bears a creeping resemblance to femininity:bad/masculinity:good.
I actually am not taking a position against JK looking for a strong partner so much as the 'sensitive men need to grow a spine' comments. I think that these are intensely counter-productive.
Oh and Marc200: Again, she's not seeming to be having as much trouble being romantically attractive as she is finding people she's romantically attracted to. I didn't read her interview as saying that she's turning guys off with stance as an activist, so much as being turned off by the men themselves.
11:23 pm
For the first time in my life, I'm dating a guy who is an engaged, internalized feminist. One of HIS litmus tests for who he'd date is feminism. And the energy we have together that comes from this, both in how we view the world, ourselves, each other, other people --
-- well, it's fucking amazing.
2:27 am
Don't compromise. Look for men who respect women as separate and complete human beings. They may not talk feminism or know feminist constructs, but that doesn't mean they don't get it.
I married someone who came from a conservative midwestern background and thought he was a Republican. If I'd asked him whether he was a feminist, or started explicitly talking rape culture, I doubt his responses would have passed a preconceived litmus test. But listening to the way he talked about his mother, sister, and ex-girlfriends, I heard someone who respected women as naturally and absolutely equal and rejected elements of the culture that marginalized women.
So freakin' refreshing.
Real men respect women. There's no conflict between mature masculinity and feminism.
6:41 pm
Wow Jaclyn, what a great interview, very informative and honest! But I lament that the alpha male I love would never meet the litmus test; I stay with him regardless for his other qualities, but you have given me something important to ponder. Cheers to you girl and good luck in finding that sincere and secure feminist hottie to spend your life with, one who has not sacrificed the sexy qualities of manliness to political posturing and deference.
6:58 pm
I appreciated most of the points in this interview, but I noted two things that I thought were pretty lame from Friedman: 1) the notion that “doesn’t have drama” is to screen out women who have opinions. It just doesn't follow. You yourself said that you don't have a lot of drama, and that's all I see that as stating. My SO and I have discussed this. He told me before we started dating that he doesn't want a lot of drama in his life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the strong opinions I put forth. A lot of guys say they don't want drama. I think you're cutting away a lot of potentially good men for faulty logic.
2) Your statement that a politically "moderate" person is someone who can't be challenging and is "easier and quicker to sweep away". I can vaguely see why you'd make such a statement, but again I believe that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. I've labeled myself as a moderate because a lot of issues I can see both sides to but that doesn't mean that there are some issues I feel very strongly about and have no problem putting my views very strongly out there. You put down a lot of women with that statement. Not cool.
8:46 pm
Fantastic article and debate!
I find the debate about 'strong' women not wanting 'weak' men particularly interesting because of my cross-Atlantic perspective. From here in the UK, the American concept of manhood seems to be substantially more macho than the average Brit's, and frequently more tied up with physical strength, domination, determination... all that frontier-mentality stuff. Not that British men are 'better' or 'worse',of course, but there does seem to be *some* difference in perceptions of masculinity.
And my partner is pretty non-traditionally masculine even for here. He hates sport, he can't fix things and he doesn't have a driving licence. BUT one of the things that first attracted me to him was that we discussed (for some reason) his definition of manhood. And he said straight away that for him it was nothing to do with physical strength or any of that shit. For him, it's knowing who you are and what you believe in and being ready to stand up for that and for yourself. And also, obviously, knowing when to judiciously run away. :-D
And I pointed out that that could also define a woman, to which he cheerfully agreed. I loved that, that he didn't define himself/masculinity by its difference from women/femininity.
But it's hard, really hard, being a feminist even with a sympathetic dude. He, like others mentioned here, is happy that I'm ballsy but not so keen when I'm pointing out HIS shit. He is often guilty of mansplaining how something isn't sexist because *he* can't see it. And, being a die-hard leftie, I *know* he still thinks that feminism is secondary to the class struggle, etc.
But I agree with others who have said that as long as the basic love and respect are there, things can work. We have both changed - I am learning to make my point without getting (too) angry, he has learned that despite our mutual love of creative swearing, rape jokes aren't funny.
If I were dating now, I'd proudly say I was a committed feminist. The fact that it would narrow the pool down is a bonus, not a detriment. Because sexy macho bastards are all very well for a fuck, but are boring, humourless gits unless everything's on their terms. A man who you can fuck AND have a conversation and a laugh with is well worth having to do all the power-drilling crap for. IME.
4:46 pm
I love (and by "love" I mean "abhor") that so many people in this thread are telling Jaclyn what she "should" like and dislike in potential partners.
Are you missing that the entire point of this article is an interview with one person about her own personal experiences, tastes, likes and dislikes? It's like you're all railing at George H.W. Bush to like broccoli or something.
8:27 pm
JMS:
Well, a lot of feminists do make critiques about the fact that men in general tend to overvalue some aspects of femininity, sexually, and undervalue others. Over-focus on the physical, under-focus on the mental. Over-focus on thinness. Etc. Overvaluing submissive, non-challenging behavior. Wanting a woman who will simply agree with them.
Personally, I am not trying to specifically tell JK who to date. I'm not even certain she will read this thread. More making some points on questioning the sanctity of desire. Some discourse around desire paints it as some sort of untouchable. As if who and what we desire arises spontaneously on it's own, untouched by the cultural context. And I don't think this is true.
Pointing out a certain type of activity in a guy as being specifically unattractive has weight. Words have power. Reading this and similar pieces might make it more likely that, when a strong woman is dating an eager, more submissive, sensitive man, she will unconsciously regard it as 'ew'.
What I am really wondering is where the notion that a strong woman needs a strong man came from? The reverse has never been culturally assumed.
2:46 pm
Well, a lot of feminists do make critiques about the fact that men in general
AB DAB DAB stop right there. "They did it first" ceases being appropriate after your 8th birthday.
This article isn't about the imaginary "a lot of feminists" in your head. It's about one person and her experiences. And look at all the people who are SO FUCKING EAGER to discount and dismiss her experiences.
It's enough to, dare I say it, make one a feminist.
7:02 pm
There is a huge difference between being feminist and being a fanatic; that I find is my issue, in general. All groups of people. I'm open to everyone - unless they're fanatical about it, or so high on their own opinion that everybody else's is trivialized. I also have issues with overly doing politically correctness.
I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area; I'm familiar (intimately) with the issues. There are backlashes that are just as detrimental, however.
And then there are the fanatically stupid. Where I grew up, this can be otherwise labeled as "environmental studies BA degree pursuing wanna-be-hippy UC Santa Cruz feminism"... (not to be confused with environmental degrees that require science courses...). My sister's class (she was a Biology major there) made a big stink about it being sexist and non-PC to call a microphone a "Mike", and circulated a petition to have it called a "Michelle", to show pro-feminism. I'm sorry, but it's called a "Mic" with a hard "i", short for "Microphone". It's a gender-neutral term. Assigning a gender to it, and then making it into a feminism issue, does not make one a feminist; it makes them an out-of-touch-with-reality fanatic.
It'd be great to meet a woman who can be pro-feminism without being anti-masculinity; and especially without being anti-issue-that-isn't-really-an-issue-as-it-only-exists-in-her-head.
As far as "rape culture" and femininity, I am continuously disappointed by women in dating profiles who seem to feel they need to attract men by noting they love to fish, watch sports, go mudding, are considered a tomboy, and love to have fun and get drunk; and then all of their photos show a lack of interests in fishing, sports, mudding or being a tomboy (not that any of these qualities actually interest me in a woman, anyway, as I'm disinterested in ANY of the aforementioned activities). They are usually kind enough to show themselves looking plastered, though.
Perhaps it's because I no longer reside in the SFBA. In the south, getting your date drunk to have sex with her is socially acceptable - even if technically illegal. In the SFBA it's understood by all young men to be rape (or was when I was growing up). I still can't get into this.
I don't care if you're already having sex, and she seems to be enjoying it; if she changes her mind and says stop, and keep going; in that instance it becomes rape in her mind - even if it isn't in the eyes of the court (as she consented to the initial sex). She still will feel the hurt and betrayal - and then made to feel ashamed, and like it's her own fault for it. Good job, jackass.
But the idea that all guys evaluate a woman on the same basis, or have no interest in her ideas, is itself sexist. I have been accused of not being masculine enough, because I supported a woman's position. If a guy is that uncomfortable with his sexuality that he needs to attack me for not being his definition of a "real man", that's his issue. I really couldn't care less.
My ex-gf's current bf doesn't like me, as I physically resemble a guy that raped his ex-gf. He keeps apologizing to me for it. It's pretty obnoxious. I really don't care, honestly.
It's his issue, not mine.
Here's a fun question: How many of you watched "Precious", what was your motivation, and what did you think of it (on-topic)?
2:26 pm
I've had my share of "the Sportsman," or "Hunter of feminists." It's my experience that the first red flag is when they get POed about you having a differing opinion...on your social plans. Especially if they don't include him. Even if his invitation is less than 48 hours in advance. Even if you just met him less than a week ago.
Is it just me, or does the Sportsman always seem WAY TOO YOUNG to be that backward??
I love it that they still divide the world into "kinds" of girls too.
9:16 pm
has anyone out there ever dated punk or ex-punk guys? i'm dating one right now who is not only very feminist (and anit-racist, and just generally radical and enlightened), but very very comfortable with his feminism, to the point where he's more than willing to own up to certain inconsistencies: like, for instance, shaved legs and pits turn his crank, he kind of wishes he wasn't wired that way but he doesn't spend time apologizing for how his libido works, he's just open and honest about it. i chalk up his ability to be feminist without being self-effacing to early radicialization via punk rock, and plenty of time to get comfortable with himself in the context of his political beliefs before being a grown-up in grown-up relationships... people who come to feminism (and other views that challenge mainstream society at large) at later ages are, i think, the ones who aren't so good at it --- the ones who get bent out of shape if you have an opinion, or the ones who can't figure out how to assert their own opinions because they're so afraid of being anti-feminist. feminism takes time and work... and compromise.
12:35 pm
@NoahB "Aw, poor babies.
Really…I know you’re trying to be constructive, but I hear this sort of thing and I just think, “grow a spine.” If a guy’s so delicate that a little (or a lot of) feminism sends him off into a whiny little fugue of self-pity and fear…well, that’s his problem, not feminism’s."
Dude, there's so much wrong with what you wrote that i'm not sure where to start.
You're denigrating men for not buying the patriarchy norms of masculinity, and that's put you right there as patriarchal ally.
And it's also totally counter-productive and alienating. It's one thing to point male privilege and call out rape culture, and another to blame men as a gender, dismiss and ridicule them.
11:00 am
@anne (and anyone else): This may seem off-topic, but everything I'm talking about here has been problematic at some point in my experience with dating people in the "punk" scene. My partner right now is the most level-headed progressive and supportive man I know, but punk is something I have a love/hate relationship with. More often than not I walk out of shows feeling nothing but alienated and overwhelmed with this weird overload of male-fronted aggression. Especially with a lot of political or otherwise ideological punk (specifically, a lot of straightedge bands I've noticed? You know, the scary guys whose eyes look like they're going to pop out at you when they're screaming at you about your apparently impaired sense of morality). For me, at least, the positive message gets obscured in this male-specific aggression. I don't mind the aggression - at all! I love the energy; always have. But I just can't shake the feeling that if you're a girl into punk, you're either the girl everyone in the bands wants to fuck, or you act like a dude and are otherwise de-sexualized. I don't know if that makes sense...or maybe I just can't get the image of Henry Rollins whining about his privilege to "Slip it In" out of my head. Not to mention this trend of "ironic" racism, sexism, and homophobia, or "mysterious" penchants for Nazism and vaguely offensive (but photocopied enough to be not-so-overtly-offensive) racist/homophobic/sexist imagery. Or the literature punks who heil Henry Miller and feel entitled to reap their privilege because they otherwise identify with something that is "subversive." That's the worst. If anything, within more socially progressive scenes, the whole gender equality thing is the HARDEST for people to grasp.
End rant.
4:13 pm
"Fucking while feminist presents a peculiar set of challenges for the pro-sex single. How do you talk rape culture on a first date while still managing to get laid once in a while? How do you find the feminist guy who won’t self-flagellate to the point of unfuckability? How do you avoid dying alone, basically? Friedman agreed to talk to me about establishing a feminist fucking litmus test, the art of locating non-douchey sex partners online, and the secret perks of fucking a feminist."
So pro-sex single = pro-sex straight single? Check your heteronormativity.