The Sexist

Cat-Calling, “Bystander Sexism,” and How Sexual Harassment Hurts Men

It's been well-established that experiencing sexual harassment has a negative effect on women. But what about witnessing it?

A new study from University of Connecticut researchers Stephenie Chaudoir and Diane Quinn suggests that simply being a bystander to sexism is enough to inspire women to report higher identification with women as a group, and heightened feelings of negativity toward men. The effects of this "bystander sexism" help to explain how a cat-call targeted at one woman can work to demean all of us.

In the study, the researchers asked 114 female college students to watch one of two videos and imagine themselves as a witness to the scene that unfolds. In the first version, a man approaches a woman and says, "Hey Kelly, your boobs look great in that shirt!" In the second, the man greets the woman by saying, "Hey Kelly, what's up?" Study participants then completed a survey designed to show how strongly they identify themselves with women as a group, how much anger and fear they feel toward men as a group, and how likely they are to be prompted to either "move against" or "move away" from men in general.

The result? Even though women only graded the "boobs" comment as a "moderately prejudiced" thing to say, women who witnessed the harassment were more likely to identify as women, feel anger toward men, and express the desire to "move away" from men.

The fact that street harassment tends to divide men and women as classes is no secret. Women who have experienced street harassment often report coping by responding with wariness to all strange men, in order to fend off possible future harassment. And men express frustration that they can't approach a woman in a way they perceive as non-harassing—whether it's to ask for directions or deliver a compliment—without being regarded as a potential offender. But the defensive strategy is often made necessary by the frequency of such harassment; Chaudoir and Quinn note that  "42% of U.S. female college students [report] that they are the direct targets of cat-calls at least once a month." And this casual sexism has serious effects on its victims: "the experience of street harassment is directly related to greater preoccupation with physical appearance and body shame, and is indirectly related to heightened fears of rape for U.S. undergraduate women."

What the new study reveals is that harassment also has serious effects on women who are not victims—and men who are not harassers. "It makes sense that if women feel like they have been discriminated against, or that specific men are engaging in sexist behaviors that can harm them, they’re going to be on high alert in the future from other men, even if those men have no intent of participating in the discrimination," says Chaudoir. For the men, "our data do speak to this unfortunate predicament where men who are not harassers and men who are not doing anything wrong end up being painted in the eyes of women, at least for some period of time, in a negative way," Chaudoir says. "For men who are doing nothing wrong, these [harassers] may be shaping the ways that they’re being perceived as well."

Despite the depressingly divisive results here, this study shows that men and women alike have an investment in working to eliminate sexual harassment. As Chaudoir and Quinn's work demonstrates, harassment against women often occurs in public and in view of plenty of bystanders, male and female. We all have the opportunity to make it clear that this sort of behavior is unacceptable.

Comments

  1. #1

    I'm actually also really interested in how men react to seeing women harassed. Maybe if we understand what their reactions are as witnesses we can understand how to reduce the problem.

  2. #2

    Smart idea, Shinobi!

  3. #3

    Shinobi, I had the same question for Chaudoir. I wondered specifically if viewing the harassment would encourage men to identify with---or away from---men as a group. So, do that study, researchers!

  4. #4

    Another voice for men participating. I know I always end up either embarrassedly looking away and hoping it ends or nearly losing my shit in anger when I witness harassment this (not that either of those is actually a productive response). I'm sure some men find it fun/amusing. But one way or the other, I bet it has an immediate impact in addition to the secondary one implied by the survey.

  5. #5

    I think the guys who have a good perspective on "all women are just people, all the time" get angry about harassment. The men I've seen get angry and take action against harassment are usually the ones that can think "what if that was my girlfriend/wife/mother/daughter/sister?" So if that was an angle taken, then maybe more men would speak out.

    I know when I worked at a bar and men harassed me, there were a couple of male coworkers who looked at me like a little sister (I was the youngest employee) and would stand up for me and get the harassers to leave. Which was nice, because anything I could have done (like kick them in the balls or tell them to go to hell) probably would have gotten my ass fired!

  6. #6

    I wish this article had ended with a more clear call to men to react to harassment that they witness. Really that's the point- if harassment hurts men because it makes women wary of men, then it is in men's best interest to step up and say something when they see it happening, even if feeling bad for the woman doesn't make them act. I would have liked to see a 'clarion call' here. Otherwise good article.

  7. #7

    Hmmm...I would have like to see this study done with the man being a complete stranger. I guess the reaction of the bystander would still be measurable, as she doesn't know the people and their relationship, but I have several male friends who would say the same thing to me and mean it as a genuine compliment. And I know they mean it as a compliment, and my other friends know they mean it as a compliment. But, true, a complete stranger would not know that our relationship was such that it's no big deal that certain particular people make comments about my body. But I do wonder what the reaction would be to some guy coming up who clearly didn't know the woman and saying, "hello" versus "hey baby (sugar, honey, mama, et al)." Probably stronger, but also a better gauge of how STREET HARASSMENT affects other women, as opposed to general sexual harassment as (possibly) displayed here.

  8. #8

    In the meantime what should I do about the women in my workplace who have recently taken to using the expression "reek of testosterone"?

    Should I respond in kind? Should I have them charged with sexual harassment(assuming it was taken seriouslky at all)? Should I "be a man" and let them get away with it?

    Or, given that women are never guilty of any wrongdoing, should I pretend I imagined it all?

  9. #9

    @gwallan
    Where do you see in this article that "women can do no wrong"? Did anyone write that, or is that just your anxious masculinity speaking? If you saw women as individuals and not as a category, then maybe you could see that yes, individuals can and do do wrong things every once in a while. Yours is the special sort of sexism that would write off a whole gender based on the actions of a few of its members; do you do that with race too?
    And you picked a horrible example: "reeks of testosterone"? How is that even close to sexual harassment? I think that that may be the clearest indicator of your privilege that that is the closest example you can muster in comparison to street harassment. Have you ever thought that people may say things like that when the office environment feels like a boys' club? Or maybe after being harassed by a boss? Or inappropriately cat-called while grabbing a coffee? Or do you really believe that saying a place "reeks of testosterone" is the crux of some giant feminist misandric scheme? I have said that before, and that was after losing my first job at fifteen because neither my boss nor my bosses' boss would listen to my complaint of how the thirty-year old man who was training me used every chance he had to touch me--it was a freaking boys' club where they covered for each other, and yes, that environment does "reek of testosterone."
    Please own up to your male privilege here, because your comment was incredibly misogynistic and innapropriate.

  10. #10

    "If you saw women as individuals and not as a category, then maybe you could see that yes, individuals can and do do wrong things every once in a while."

    Hey switchintoglide, did you read about the study up there?

    WOMEN judge ALL MEN negatively after seeing ONE MAN harass a woman.

    So maybe if women saw men as individuals and not as a category, yada yada yada.

    But apparently that's too much to ask - all this study shows me is that women are more prone to irrational prejudice than are men. Much in keeping with my own experience. I too have heard plenty of 'testosterone' complaints.

    Even if male privilege is real, how does it detract from gwallan's argument? Seriously - how does it make what he said any less credible? Hoe does it make his experiences less valid?

    Asking somebody to 'own up to' something they have no control over, is nothing more than instilling a sense of shame in them because you would really rather they shut up. Because you don't like what they're saying - because you can't stand that your own experiences of the world are not matched by other people's. Yes, others may actually experience another sort of sexism.

    "Have you ever thought that people may say things like that when the office environment feels like a boys’ club?"

    Have you ever thought that people may say things like "nice boobs" when the environment feels like a strip club?

    It all works both ways, 'sista', but you're not willing to accept that because it detracts from the wimmin-as-eternal-victim metanarrative.

  11. #11

    "I wish this article had ended with a more clear call to men to react to harassment that they witness."

    Natasha, men have no obligations towards women whatsoever.

    Feminism killed off chivalry. The social contract between men and women which once existed has been voided. There is no reason for a man to protect women any longer. No reason for men to go to bat for women. That would be, in a word, patriarchal!

    Besides, I'm always hearing about how women are much stronger than men are - so maybe women would like to jump in and protect men from sexist comments, since we're so weak and all.

    (I sometimes forget - are women the victims of men, or are they stronger than men?!?!)

    "Really that’s the point- if harassment hurts men because it makes women wary of men, then it is in men’s best interest to step up and say something when they see it happening"

    No. If one man harassing one woman makes feeble-minded women hate all men, then it's up to those women to change their defective way of thinking, and learn to treat people as individuals. Just as they ask of men.

    Is that somehow unreasonable?

  12. #12

    People have no control over the system that endows them with privilege (though they can work to change it in small or large ways) but they sure as hell have control over their own actions and words. Gwallen's statements came from a place of unacknowledged, unexamined male privilege, demonstrated by the fact that his only response to a story about an oppressed group is BUT WHAT ABOUT ME??

  13. #13

    And snark, feminism does not ask men to protect women. It asks them to treat us with respect. I would intervene in any situation where a person is being harrassed, no matter their gender, because I respect people. Your mind seems to only be able to grasp human relations in terms of domination/submission, which is why this concept is beyond you.

  14. #14

    Snark, did you read the study? Women get harassed on a consistent, regular basis. So, no. It's not just one work environment like yours seems to be. I'm sure if you have a conversation with the women in your life many of them have had the same experience.

    I still remember the first time I was harassed on the street. I WAS NINE, walking home from the pool where all the kids in the neighborhood swam. A car full of guys screamed all kinds of things of me. I didn't understand them all, but I knew that it wasn't with friendly intentions, I knew I was alone, and I knew that if they pulled over, I would be in trouble. Do you see, through this context, why street harassment is problematic? Or are you going to say that since I was in a bathing suit and a towel, that I deserved it?

    When your sense of safety is threatened, on a regular basis, yes, you're going to be wary. I'm wary of strange men, especially on the street. And sure, I probably missed out on meeting some interesting people because of my caution, but I've been shown far too many times that too much caution with some missed opportunities are better than well, the worst you can imagine. Rape. Assault. Kidnapping. See where I'm going with this?

    This study and the commenters here are an opportunity for you to understand what life is like through others' eyes. If you're disbelieving, I can't do anything about that. If you understand, well, you're the better person for it, and maybe you can help better the world, one situation and one conversation at a time.

  15. #15

    "Have you ever thought that people may say things like “nice boobs” when the environment feels like a strip club?"

    Wait, are you serious?!?! Do you even KNOW any women? Men say "nice boobs" at the most INAPPROPRIATE of times, and as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with how the woman is dressed (like a stripper or wearing a fuckin burka, we get harassed no matter what").

    I dress like a tomboy, I don't wear dresses or skirts, I don't show any cleavage, I don't wear heals or makeup, I'm about as opposite as a stripper as you can get. Yet, I've had "Got milk?" yelled at me out a car window. I've had men grab my boobs MULTIPLE times on the bus or anywhere crowded. I've had men slap my ass while walking down the street. I've had a client tell me "Mama, breast feed me!" when he needs help with something. I've had hundreds of men ask me my cup size or if my breasts are real or if they can touch them. I've had an employer tell me he wasn't hiring me because my boobs were just "too distracting". I've had men pull up in the car besides me while I'm walking and tell me lewd things like "I want to slide my dick between your huge titties" or "Come on, just show me your underwear.. just a quick look!". I've had men riding by on bicycles or in cars yell things at me like "Nice tits!" or "I'd tap that!" even when I'm with my boyfriend or a group of men.

    None of these environments seem like a strip club to me.

  16. #16

    I'd also like to say that if men only said things like "this place reeks of estrogen" i would be ECSTATIC!! Do you know how much better that would be than following me in their car, cornering me in bus shelters, and telling me where they want to put their dick in explicit detail while not letting me get away? One seems like a harmless comment equaling "this place is filled with women!" the other makes me want to carry a gun!

  17. #17

    Bookishbeemer, you make a good point emphasizing the fact that harassment threatens one's personal safety. Do gwallen and snark feel that their safety is threatened by the comments about testosterone? Does it make them uncomfortable? Do they feel that if they speak up about it, their jobs might be in jeopardy? If yes, then absolutely it is a problem that should be addressed, and I hope they take appropriate steps to do so. More often, however, men who make these types of arguments do so with the mistaken assumption that ANY comment about a person's gender counts as harassment.

    There is a huge difference between a guy screaming "what up, b*tch!" at me from a passing car (in front of my house, last week) or leering at me and commenting on my body in a parking lot (a few weeks ago) or finding ways to brush his hand across the breasts and buttocks of 15- and 16-year-old employees (my second job), compared with someone simply making a comment about a person's gender in a non-threatening, non-sexual way.

  18. #18

    Where I am this isn't that big of a problem, but taking pictures of these guys with your phones is a good idea.
    I heard of this one woman that got yelled at everyday and then several years later one of the guys that yelled at her applied at her company. He couldn't look at her for two years. Imagine having to give a presentation in front of a group of people and one of those people you use to yell, "c@nt" at and she just sits there grinning at you the whole time. Sweet revenge.
    Remember their faces, you might see them again. They are counting on never seeing the woman again, that is why they are so bold. That's why it doesn't happen as much in smaller towns. You can't yell at a woman who knows your grandmother.
    Oh, what's that you got on your face? Is it a little egg? Oops.
    A gun that is loaded with blanks is good too. A lot of noise is likely to scare off assholes and it can't be used against you either.
    Just a thought.

  19. #19

    Thanks for the support everyone.
    And no, there is not "women as victims" metanarrative, because if you knew anything about sexual assault and harassment, you would know that the word is "survivors."
    Standing up for someone is not "chivalry," it is just the right thing to do. When I tell a man who has groped me to f*ck off, it has virtually no weight, but when my partner does, the man usually backs off--I think that is a function of our social structure more than anything implicit in men.

  20. #20

    " It asks them to treat us with respect."

    Respect is earned, not given away for no reason.

    I really doubt seeing a woman cat-called has the same effect as the womens studies departments and the lectures of rape around orientation time and VDay. Women get fear instilled into them in much greater volumes from other sources, like the media. Women seem to be afraind of the man in the bushes but the rape figures are based on aquaintance rapes...stranger rape/assault is quite rare but women are in a state of constant fear from stranger attacks??? This study only had 114 women in it. This is hardly a decent sample and the methodology is suspect too.

    Id like to see a study showing the effect of street harassment of men. Men aren't the only ones saying inappropriate things to random strangers. Then theres visual-based harassment of an overt sexual nature. Women are by far the greates perps when it comes to sexual enticement and flashing/flaunting skin. I should have the right to walk down the street without being bombarded by half naked female bodies and advertisements. Its not natural and quite sexist to keep men in a perpetual state of arousal. Its manipulative too. Thats what the entire male gaze is based on, sex sells.

    @Gwallan...that may not be the best example but it is quite common. Ive been harassed on the job by females many times, and im talking not just inappropriate comments like "castration jokes" but also sexualized touching or the widespread gossiping of peoples sexual orientation. Ive seen that many times at college, where even instructors and professors have mused about a male being a "fag". Ive complained but always get told to "man up" or just "take it." Its crazy that Ive complained only to be shamed or silenced but then I had a friend lose his job over saying hello to a woman. She was white and he was black. I was there and it wasn't sexualized in the least bit or inappropriate. She was just a racist and he was gone the next day.

    BTW, all this talk of priviledge is crazy. Men are harassed on the street far more often than women, its just usually not the women doing it. ITS THE POLICE. The police-state exists to protect women(victims) from men(perps) and does so by victimizing men. You may get cat-called but how many times have you been pulled over and searched for walking down your own street while male? How many times have you had a baton at the back of your head while a cop called you a faggot? My first time was at 13 and my last time was two months ago when I was getting something out of my car at 1am. Ive been stopped many times for no reason other than being male and not wearing a nice suit. Atleast 15 times in the last 10 yrs. How can 54 percent of the population be considered an oppressed minority???LOL. You feminists have been playing that card to the detriment of real minorities. Affirmative action and workplace harassment laws were meant to protect african americans and other minority groups. Now black men still go to jail and lose their voting rights, creating a large caste system, and white middle class females go to college. Its a perversion of the original system and racist too. But if you are so oppressed then maybe you can tell me about the "beat box." Cause this is where priviledge does come in. Im just a poor white high school drop out, and ive never been tasered or placed in the 'beat box" like my black friends and poor white friends have. If you want to know about the beat box, go to your local, small town court house and look at the elevator that goes from the courtroom to he jailhouse. In my town they paint the walls every couple weeks, gotta get rid of the blood stains. But please by all means continue using our tax dollars to spread this female-victim/male-perp meta-narrative some more. Well, time to be bannished.
    -Peace

  21. #21

    Thanks, Valerie, for getting the conversation back on track. I'd love to hear more suggestions for what people of all genders can do when confronted with this experience, either as a recipient of the unwanted attention or as a bystander. I'm usually just left speechless. I'll start taking pictures of license plates and guys' faces if possible.

    And bookishbeemer, you're right about that power dynamic. Much as I want to stand up for myself and attempt to do so, these men behave this way because they have no respect for me in the first place. Sometimes it's possible to engage them in a conversation about their behavior, or to embarrass them into hopefully thinking twice next time, but usually I think the most effective thing is to have the support of an ally, if you're that lucky. It is just the nature of the system that people are more likely to listen to someone of their own group in a situation like this.

  22. #22

    Good lord...after reading the flame war on this thread, it's a wonder men and women aren't in an actual shooting war with each other. Or at least the ones who read this blog...

    Speaking as a reasonable male of the species, it's obvious to all that the issues between men and women have become too intractable to be resolved. If this is what the relationship between the genders has come to in America, better to get rid of it entirely. Men and womens should separate themselves from each other. It is better for men to avoid women entirely, and judging from the comments above, most women would be happy for men to disappear. So why not oblige each other?

  23. #23

    "judging from the comments above, most women would be happy for men to disappear."

    How so? Because they don't want to undergo sexual harassment?

    I wonder how many of these trolls have harassed women themselves. It could account for their hostility, defensiveness, and wild rationalization. So I'm asking the trolls outright: Do you have girlfriends? Have they ever been harassed by other men? Have you ever cat-called a woman? If so, why? What did you hope to achieve (or not) with the cat-call?

    Lucky for me, I have only a couple of hazy memories of drive-by harassment, and it was of the irritating (Really? You think you're going to get into my pants by cruising by and saying, "Lookin' good"?) variety rather than the threatening variety. However, my friend was crossing the street one day, dressed up and feeling confident, when a couple of men slowed down in a car and screamed at her that she was a fat ugly whore. Slowing down and looking her right in the face and everything. She came into the restaurant where I was working at the time, visibly shaken and super, super upset. To add insult to injury, she couldn't have weighed more than 150 pounds, tops. Not that it would have made the mens' comment more forgivable if she had been clinically obese (and I use the term clinically obese loosely and sardonically). I have no problem seeing why her opinion of men might have dropped directly following the encounter.

    One thing that the article doesn't mention is how lasting that this fear or disgust of men was after the women had viewed the video. Might have been informative to do a follow-up in the study. Speaking for my friend, I don't think she swore off the entire male sex. As far as I can tell, she's in a happy long-term relationship with a member of the male sex right as I type this comment. I'll even be so bold as to suggest that he thinks she's beautiful and the perfect weight, and that he treats her with respect and wouldn't dream of using cat-calls to get her attention. Funny how that works out, huh?

  24. #24

    Snark says: "Feminism killed off chivalry. The social contract between men and women which once existed has been voided."

    Could you tell us exactly what you mean by chivalry? And "social contract"? Because if you mean opening doors for women, that's just etiquette which some women--not all--feel is outdated. By all means lump men together as a homogeneous group and not as individuals, and tell me that all men of all races, nationalities, and religions took a worldwide oath of chivalry before the mean ol' 1970s American feminists took over and fucked up everyone's fun. :P

  25. #25

    TrollKing, you are so right about whorey, slutty women always harassing men by walking around with their bodies all existing and stuff, making men get aroused against their will. It was true when the Taliban said it and it's true now. Burquas for all (women)!

  26. #26

    @ Sarah

    I have never cat-called a woman. But I have been screamed at by a woman for opening the door for her. It sounds like a joke, but ive had it happen more than once. Once was a girlfriend in my teens who then proceeded to give me a 30 minute lecture on patriarchial oppression. I have however had friends, who were female, harassed and im not denying that some men do this. But ive never seen a workplace that doesn't take this seriously. Not even an environment either, like a public university campus or recreational centers. Most of the time that ive seen this happen its usually the precursor to a fight between two men. Now as ive said in my previous post ive been harassed by women on the job and in classes ive taken. I saw my American Lit professor, the same one who was very nice to me and moved me from the intro to the honors section, spend 20 minutes discussing with the 20 or so females in the class(I was one of three guys) whether or not her teaching aid was a 'fag' all because he looked 'homely.' He even walked in on it and blushed while looking very irate. I complained only to be disregarded. Male on female harassment is taken quite seriously by every public place ive been. Workplaces and schools have to because of litigious student/workers. As I also said in my previous post I saw one of these incidents of supposed 'harassment' and it was nothing more than a racist women getting a black man fired for saying HELLO by leveling a false claim against him. There may be some environmentss and situations where its not taken seriously, but most places its become a joke in how its enforced. In some offices men don't even want to talk to their female co-workers for fear of unwarranted claims. However female on male harassment is never taken seriously. You women aren't saintly, pure creatures that can never tell a lie or cause harm. This victim narrative that you keep pushing only furthers the capability of female perps to use the system towards malicious ends. Innocent men are punished while violent, guilty women go destroy lives free of consequences.

    I will tell you that I had this friend one time, I worked with him. Needless to say he's not my friend anymore, cause I found out that he liked to go to clubs with some of his buddies and pinch girls/grope them and then scream bitch at them...he thought this was incredibly funny and delighted in it. One day I hung out with him and found out why he was like this. We were playing videogames, not even the violent type, and his mother and sisters(he never met his father) walked in and his mother started screaming at him, calling him a deadbeat, piece of sh*t, worthless, carbon copy of his spermdonor, dead-beat, piece of sh*t father. His sisters then began mocking him,to the happy approval of his mother, about how he lost his virginity at 8 to the babysitter who drugged him. His mother then got mad at him and screamed and threw things across the room for f*cking the next door neigbhor..thats when I left, but it was an eye opening experience into the dynamics of a single mother house and the breakdown in society that matriarchial ghettos cause. Misogynists aren't born. We are made, mainly by taking away access to our fathers.
    -Off to banland
    -Peace
    -Trollking

  27. #27

    @ jenny

    I don't want burkhas for all women. I just don't want tits constantly pushed in my face. you are very naive or a liar if you think women don't use their sexuality to gain advantage or manipulate men. You women/feminists complain all the time about unfair beauty standards and the cosmetic industry that some how FORCES you to spend countless hours primping and sexualizing yourself. Not to mention BILLIONS of dollars. Hell they make thongs for kids these days. I agree with you feminists, I don't want to be subjected to a constant display of quasi porn on my way to class everday. Is it really too much for women to level the playing field by covering your cleavage and maybe wearing skirts where your ass isn't hanging out. maybe some shirts that cover more than your nipples. And btw, id say the same should be held for men too.

    "making men get aroused against their will"

    What are you talking about? You can't control arousal. Men get boners in their sleep. Or maybe your one of these women that see men as nothing but a didlo glued to an ATM with legs attached. Are you the type that thinks men can't be raped cause he "MUST HAVE WANTED IT" by going and getting a hard on??? Cause you feminists hide the true travesty of rape in this country by constantly playing the victim meta narrative. Just as many men are assaulted under the influence as women, meaning there are just as many female date-rapists out there. Hell by your view of men, I guess we really are nothing but tools. But by all means, DE-humanize away.

    -Trollking

  28. #28

    Trollking,

    It's really difficult to get banned over here, so you can stop signing off with a note about how the critique you're spitting is just so real that you know the feminists are going to have to check this shit in moderation. I realize that this may have put a damper on whatever bizarre trolling pissing contest you're attempting to create here by situating yourself as a victim of my censorius wrath, but as long as you don't use multiple aliases and don't post an excessive number of comments in a row, you will survive.

    Amanda

  29. #29

    Of course, we will NEVER see the likes of an article here about False Allegations by Women. Because you know, words can hurt you more than losing your job, reputation, and possessions.

    In the 90's when claims of Sexual Harassment became all the rage -- and I'll explain that further down -- the way to defeat ANY male that was blocking female advancement or hey, if you plain maybe just didn't like the guy ; well it was sooo easy to let that one fly.

    You in competition with a man for that one remaining senior position that opened ? Claim sexual harassment. Boss on your case about something? Claim sexual harassment.

    Yeah, you see in the 90's the whole S.H. ploy came of age. Thrust to prominence by the Feminists ( who as we know, never would lie or concoct statistics ) and thus prominently displayed by the feminist gatekeepers in the media, a new cause-celeb was born.

    I personally was falsely accused twice during that era. Both times I was vindicated by just standing my ground, but in both cases the long lead period from charge to actual adjudication allowed very destructive insinuation and false condemnation to accomplish virtually the same results of any actual conviction. Oh, and just for a little dessert topper, I was investigated and indirectly accused without ever being informed of what was going on. Right up until the day of the scheduled inquiry.

    Unusual you say? Not at all. I contacted lawyers who uniformly stated that I should " pick a number" if I was to avail myself of their services, such was the number of cases they carried due to it being the flavour of the day.

    As is still the case today, there is virtually NO punishment for false accusation due to the shibolith of "protecting the victim". It's still being brandished and still a very nasty weapon that was honed in the feminist think tanks for a very precise purpose.

    You can go ahead and deny that this is a serious issue. I will stand firm and tell you that many many men, I would posit the majority, have encountered this handiwork in their lives.

    If you dare ask about why relations between men and women have deteriorated, one place to begin would the INTENTIONAL creation of tools designed to do just that.

  30. #30

    @trollking

    Perhaps I should just let it go and stop feeding the troll, but I feel like I have to say something. Dude... please take a moment to consider that perhaps this article was more of a commentary on the problems that are created by street harassment than anything else.

    Certainly women are guilty of sexual harassment just as much as men are guilty, however, as the son of a single mother and the younger brother of an amazing sister I have to say that this whole "Misogynists aren’t born. We are made, mainly by taking away access to our fathers" thing that you are going for is terrible. What if we all used our parents as our excuses? My mother beat me, so I hate all women and beat them too? My uncle touched me inappropriately, do I now touch people inappropriately too? Or to use my (sister's) very own real example, my father raped my sister. So does that mean I rape my own hypothetical daughter when she is nine years old?

    No, it does not. In fact, it makes me more aware of rape and the its negative effects whether it is committed by men, women, or anyone across the gender spectrum. The article is pointing out the effects of stronger identification with one's assigned gender after witnessing a traumatic event. Many people (male/female/in between or above and beyond the binary) go through traumatic events and end up scarred. The way they deal with that scarring is through avoidance fear. Sometimes it manifests itself in a healthy dose of paranoia when one is traveling alone, say after one has been mugged or harassed. Sometimes it manifests itself in prejudice.

    And yes that can be prejudice against perceived class, gender, race, and religion. It's wrong, but it is a natural reaction. I could easily say that many women are conditioned to think of men on the street as potentially dangerous because many women experience threatening advances from men throughout their entire lives.

    The danger of creating prejudice can be as severe as the racial, class, and gender profiling performed by law enforcement across the globe everyday.
    Do I condone prejudice? No. But like the profiling done by law enforcement I understand where it comes from, the trauma of some tragic event which insights some form of nationalism, even if I do not agree. What needs to happen in all of these cases is a healing process.
    The initial violent actions by the perpetrators and the resulting prejudice hurts people physically and psychologically, and I am sorry that you have been hurt. But this war of MEN vs WOMEN (that I realize you did not start, but you certainly aren't doing anything to stop) is unnecessary and indicative of your own struggle with your identity as a man. As a man I feel fine, and I did that without a father figure.

    P.S. Sorry about calling you "Dude," I just don't really have any other way of expressing my disdain for what you have written. Perhaps I should have found a more articulate title for you, but it seemed appropriate at the time.

    P.P.S. About those advertisements with half-naked ladies, most of those are made by men, straight men, in photoshop labs.

  31. #31

    @switchintoglide...

    "Please own up to your male privilege here, because your comment was incredibly misogynistic and innapropriate."

    Really. You know I've been told all my life how "privileged" I was to have been raped by my aunt as a seven year old. I'll just add your assertion to the list shall I? It sort of devalues the expression somewhat doesn't it? Speaking of privilege it wasn't illegal at the time because of the gender specific nature of our laws. Could I suggest that being able to rape a child with complete impunity is something of a "privilege".

  32. #32

    I'm not going to feed the Trollking, because whoa . . . where to begin? (& it makes me much happier to believe that people like Trollking do not exist outside of the Internet.)

    Joe Smith says: "Of course, we will NEVER see the likes of an article here about False Allegations by Women. Because you know, words can hurt you more than losing your job, reputation, and possessions."

    Actually, since Amanda has been posting such wonderful rebuttals lately to rape myths, I was going to ask her if she could tackle the "girl who cried rape" myth, Joe Smith. When rape is discussed on local news stories, message boards, and the classroom, men inevitably pipe up with the "girl who cried rape" myth. I've always found this phenomenon intriguing, not least of all because the anecdote about the rape-crying girl always starts off with such muddy sources as "I had a friend who . . ." or "I knew a guy who . . .". But having never met either a real rape-crying girl or her hapless victim myself, having never heard any of my friends recount their own version of this urban legend, I'm loathe to give any credence to it.

    The "girl who cried rape" myth is doubtful to me not only because I've never seen an actual article or study about it (merely heard the "I had a friend who . . ." anecdotes), but because rape has such a low conviction rape. As in, 2% of rapists are convicted and jailed. As in, just 5% of college women raped in the United States in 1994 reported the crime. How can a vindictive woman hope to achieve success with such low conviction rates? As in, successful prosecution of the accused rapist is hard without witnesses and so-called physical evidence. As in, the defense of the accused rapist by family members and sometimes community members, as was the case when the Glen Ridge boys raped a disabled girl in 1989. ". . . a set of community values . . . put young male athletes on pedestals, their various 'transgressions' ignored or dismissed" (Amazon). So until I read or hear something more substantial than yours or other men's anecdotes, I cry bullshit on the "girl who cried rape" myth.

    How 'bout it, Amanda? Want to debunk (or prove?) the "girl who cried rape" myth?

    But to try to steer the discussion back to its original course, Joe, does your and your fellow colleagues' perceived discrimination by women mean that it is okay to harass and discriminate against women in public and in the workplace, measure-for-measure or eye-for-an-eye style? Does it mean that in actuality women don't get harassed all that much? Does it mean that sexual harassment laws should be retracted?

    If this abuse of harassment laws actually happened to you and your colleagues, I sympathize with you. Women should not abuse laws and regulations against sexual harassment. However, that doesn't mean that men get the green light to sexually harass to their heart's content out of revenge for mistreatment. Everyone should be treated equally in public and in the workplace and feel safe from sexual harassment, men and women alike.

    (Btw, here are the sources for the above-mentioned statistics and stories.)

    http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/nyregion/17montclair.html?fta=y

    http://www.amazon.com/Our-Guys-Perfect-Research-Masculinities/dp/0520205960

  33. #33

    It's only sexual harassment IF the woman isn't attracted to you.

    That's pretty much what it boils down to.

    The truth of the matter is that if you give a woman "gina tingles"....

    Then you can do no wrong in her eyes....

    And everything you say will be like sweet, melodic music to her ears.

    In fact, I'm sure as the day I was born that the so-called female "victims" in this blog would not see it as "harassment" if someone like Brad Pitt was cat-calling them.

  34. #34

    @ gwallan: I am sorry that you were raped. There is no excuse or justification for it.

    But I don't know what you mean by "Speaking of privilege it wasn’t illegal at the time because of the gender specific nature of our laws." In order for us to understand and agree with your theory, you'll have to specify the time (year), explain why exactly your aunt's horrible act was not illegal, clearly define what you mean by "gender specific nature," and point the blog's readers in the direction of the law(s) that prevented this crime from being punished.

    I could be reading into your argument, but it seems that you are implying that women hide behind laws against rape and use that protection and privilege to rape people themselves . . .? I might be wrong and if I am, ignore the rest of what I am going to say.

    Take a look at the link I have included below and you'll read that "[a]n estimated 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999)." Men and boys do suffer rape, but less than 1% of that rape is perpetrated by women. (You have to split that 1% with women who rape other women, you see.) I am not undermining the pain and trauma of males that do get raped, but I don't think that feminism or tougher rape laws have led to an increase in female-on-male rape.

    http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

  35. #35

    @ GrimmNoir: There are countless ways to express interest--sexual, romantic, platonic, whatever--in a woman without resorting to behavior that is harassing or otherwise makes a woman uncomfortable.

    Just to play devil's advocate to your insulting Brad Pitt comment, I had the hots for Henry Ian Cusick of LOST fame for over a year. I thought he was sex on wheels. You ought to have seen me swoon and growl when he came on the TV screen. But after reading that he might have sexually harassed a woman . . . Ew. I was immediately soured on him. Lost all interest in his pretty face. http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b120656_losts_henry_ian_cusick_accused_of.html

    Do I like getting sexual comments from a man? Sure I do. FROM MY BOYFRIEND. And only after he has signaled his interest in courtship in a way that does not involve the phrases "nice tits" or "nice ass" or "you're a fat ugly whore."

  36. #36

    Not to flood your comments section, Amanda (last comment of the night, I swear), but again I'd like to pose these questions to gwallan, Snark, Joe Smith, GrimmNoir, and all lesser trolls in Trollking's trolly kingdom.

    Do you have girlfriends? Have they ever been harassed by other men? Have you ever cat-called a woman? If so, why? What did you hope to achieve (or not) with the cat-call?

  37. #37

    Phil,

    Interesting analysis. Street harassment isn't going to stop as long as women use their sexuality to gain favors and manipulate men while simultaneously expecting men to be the pursuiers in sexual relationships. Women create the social heirarchy that stratifies men. Women dress in sexualized ways to garner male attention(but only from the males they want attention from, but men don't know that) and to raise themselves in the female based social class. Dressing sexy for women seems to be about gaining status in womens eyes, through their looks, while trying to attract only a small percentage of men. SO then the wrong men end up 'harassing'women. Now im not trying to downplay all forms of harassment towards women. Im also not blaming women for all types of harassment. There is a big difference between people saying annoying things in public and border-line assault. Cause harassment of the sort, like, "guys driving up and yelling bitch" at women or one of my friends who would go and grab girls at the club and then yell at them, isn't about sexual interests. Its about power and men do this to other men too. Ive had drunk guys drive by and yell shit at me. Why do men do this? I thought I illustrated it in the previous thread, but they usually aren't guys that have a good relationship with women and this usually come from growing up with females exercising power over small boys and these boys try to regain that power by bullying someone. As far as my comment about fathers, I wasnt trying to say its universal but the trends hold out. There are always exceptions. Why is there so much misogyny in certain groups? When you remove the patriarch your left with women in charge along with a void of male role models. Women are great about demonizing men, sometimes justifiably, but a child still absorbs these messages. Its a cycle that just grows and grows and spawns more poverty. What does a boy learn when he sees his mother dating a revolving door of boytoys? You think he gains respect for women? The FACT is that WOMEN dont protect or take care of men. How many women have you had stand infront of a gun pointing at you? Ive never seen it, infact its always been the opposite. When ive been out with a woman/women and something scary happens I have found myself standing alone only to look behind my shoulder and see the women behind me like a human shield. Now I don't actually have a problem with being expected to fulfill the protector role. I have a problem with hypocrites talking equality and then wanting special priviledges when something scary happens. Equality would actually be women taking care of themselves, yknow that pesky little thing us men are EXPECTED to do called Self-Reliance, or yknow just MAN UP and take it like a good lil beast of burden. Lolz, Chivalry isn't dead...its called the police-state. Ive never expected the police to SAVE me, only harass and threaten me.

    I actually do want to stop harassment. Cause I really should have the right to look up from my Calculus Exam and not see the girls, sitting in front of me, thong hanging out of a dress so small that it doesn't even cover her ass cheeks. Meaning her entire bottom is touching the chair in the classroom, the only thing separating her diseased genitals being a small little string. And don't tell me there aren't diseased women, cause 1 in 5 women in america has herpes. 50% of women between 14-30 have HPV...both of these diseases can be spread from just rubbing up against someone. Meaning no sexual contact is necessary, just kissing or getting their germs on ya is enough. I really think I have a RIGHT to walk down the street without seeing 20 drunk sorority girls stumbling around, screaming about shit, half naked or giving their bf's blowjobs in public. When I can't even sit in class without being subjected to womens cleavage and whale tales then something is wrong. I caxn't go to work without having female customers lean over and flirt with me by showing cleavage and im expected to enjoy it and smile. I can't sit in the break room without having to listen to women talk about their sex and the city inspired weekend trists in graphic detail while flaunting their goods. ALl this displaying of flesh creates a sexualized and hostile environment which is one definition of sexual harassment. Regardless of cultural norms placed on peoples bodies, I don't think most of you would want to look up from you book, after hearing some strange noise, in the library and be confronted with an image of my scrotum and I don't want to see your flesh everywhere. If it were men running around flashing skin most women would be complaining or pointing and laughing, but because its women doing it they just get free drinks and zero admission fees to the local bars/clubs.

    As far as women having a legit fear of strange men, I don't think its legit. Huge amounts of money have been spent giving women all sorts of special protections, whether its the blue phones placed all around my campus or the escort services that are female only. If any of you feminists spent time outside of your ivory tower bubble and maybe went to a crappy public school or an AA/NA(Narcotics Anon) meetings then you would see that when men enter a classroom they all scramble for the back seats, so their backs can be against the wall. This is called Hyper-awareness of your surrounding and is due to psychological trauma. Men are by far the biggest victims of violent attacks and assault. Women also use violence by proxy, whether its getting a boyfriend or brother to beat someones ass or just the police state to do your bidding.

    And Phil im not prejudiced, I actually want equality. I wont stop until women make up 51% of war deaths, until women serve the same prison sentences as males convicted of the same crime, until 51% of high school dropouts and homeless and drug addicted are female. Until women are forced through threat of legal action to sign away their rights on their 18th birthday, and until female on male rape(the underreported and marginalized by feminist discourse and victim meta-narrative) and prison rape are seen as worthy of victim status as what feminists preach...
    -Peace
    -TrollKing

  38. #38

    @ Sarah

    You got a boyfriend?

    Wow...

  39. #39

    @ GrimmNoir:

    Yeah, I done got me a boyfriend. Whut of it?

    Though I imagine I would have expressed similar shock if I had heard you say, "I have a girlfriend."

  40. #40

    Er, if I had heard you say "I got a girlfriend," that is.

  41. #41

    @ Sarah:

    First and foremost you need to distinguish between the definitions of rape, cause you feminists come up with a new feminition every six months. The reason those statistics work is because they only ask women in most surveys and in the few that they do ask men they ask them different questions using different definitions. You really can't compare the number of men jumped in the prison shower or raped by a man to the number of women who were "coerced" into sex...what ever that means. Feminists have expanded the definition of rape to mean almost anything. But if you applied the same definition to your sample of men and women then the answers would be about 50/50, often times with it scewing higher in the male category of victims. Just in my own life its amazing how many men ive known to brag about losing their virginity at 8 years old or after being drugged and its even more amazing to me that I didn't even know men could be raped(except in the ass) until a few years back when I started reading feminism in detail and started saying WTF. If you feminists are going to parrot the 1 in 3, or 1 in 4, or 1 in 6 numbers(where many of the victims in those surveys didn't identify those encounters with trauma or rape or assault) then im going to use those same definitions. Ive only seen one study where they used the same definition on both male and female participants and the results were 28 % female and 23% male as victims, the definition used included having sex under the influence and date rape/acquiaintance assault.

    And NO I have never cat-called a woman. Never whistled or holla'd or anything like that. These days I do not have a GF or want one either. Infact im such a misogyneeeest that I cross the street if a woman is walking on the same side as me cause I don't want to be that close to her estrogen filled ickyness.LOLz

    Have I ever had a female friend or relative harassed on the street. yes ofcourse I have. Ive even had female friends raped and murdered, one of the perps was a female and ofcourse got the pussy pass from the judge. Ive also had a friend commit suicide after his girlfriend falsely accused him of rape cause they got caught behind the stadium in highschool and she didn't want to get in trouble with her conservative parents. She dropped the charges and confessed but they found him in the closet with a bag around his head and a noose around his neck. Did she serve one day in jail for her lies? NOPE. Ive also had girlfriends cheat on me and then tell me it was rape, only to catch one bragging about the mans prowess to her friend a couple weeks later. Whats your point? That I should feel sorry for some woman that has a man say some inappropriate words to her or FAIL miserably in his pick up attempt??? You need to distinguish between harassment and assault, OK CUPCAKE? Harassment is rudeness personified, kinda like me. Assault is threatening language or behavior...battery is when they actually touch you. Assault and Batter is when they kick your ass. Assault w/ a deadly weapon is when guys have stuck a gun in my face, or a knife or baseball bat etc. Assault is a felony and punishable with prison time. Harassment is a failed pick up attempt that in the worst cases and cross into assault territory.

    Well, I wonder if this is enough comments to get banned. I like a challenge sometimes.
    -Peace

  42. #42

    @ Sarah

    Your inquiry on whether or not I have a girlfriend....

    Is nothing more than just a thinly veiled variation of the all-too-popular "you're just mad 'cause you can't laid" shaming tactic.

    But....

    I'll go ahead and humor you this one time....

    Let's say - for the sake of argument - that I "can't get laid"...

    My question is:

    Does that make what I said in my initial post any less valid?

    If so, THEN PROVE IT.

  43. #43

    Your surprise at my having a boyfriend is "nothing more than just a thinly veiled variation of the all-too-popular 'you’re just mad ’cause you can’t laid' shaming tactic." Also, I didn't inquire about anything. Merely dealt in hypotheticals.

    I already addressed your initial post, I believe.

    Trollking: I am not playing with or feeding the troll, as I've said before. Especially not when it talks about "pussy pass[es]."

  44. #44

    "I've paid my dues giving feminist-infected ankles - and their simp and mangina familiars - the cyberspace smackdown with my Logical Pimp Hand....

    (BlackMenVent, Topix, YouTube, BlackPlanet, MABTW, and so on)

    I just fuck with them for entertainment's sake nowadays, like Reaper."

    Is this you, GrimmNoir? From Men Going Their Own Way? You cheeky, clever thing, you. ;)

    Well, I'm done with your Logical Pimp Hand. Just couldn't handle it. I'm no longer feeding GrimmNoir or TrollKing. Anyone else?

  45. #45

    @ Sarah

    Your futile attempt to "turn the tables" is laughable at best....

    You see, in my years of roaming God's green earth....

    I've come to realize that...

    Unless a woman looks like a cross between Jabba the Hutt and Swamp Thing....

    SHE CAN GET LAID.

    (A helluva lot more easier than a man, I might add)

    So, that's not an accomplishment. However, keeping a man is.

    In other words....

    My surprise at someone like you having a boyfriend was exactly THAT.

    And as for you "addressing my initial post"....

    Just because you're "not like that" doesn't mean every woman is "not like that".

    So...

    You need to stop thinking you're the center of the universe....

    And come with more than just your one-dimensional worldview.

  46. #46

    @ Sarah

    Yes...

    I am a cheeky, clever rogue of a cad, aren't I? :D

    I can understand you needing to a fiver....

    My Logical Pimp Hand is indeed a motherfucker.

    :D

  47. #47

    How ironic.

    We have an argument that suggests that "heightened feelings of negativity towards men" (aka sexism) while not ideal are understandable and therefore justified on a anti-sexism blog. This is blaming men for female sexism. That somehow we all need to try and stop sexual harassment in order to prevent women from becoming irrationally sexist.Sexist feelings ("heightened feelings of negativity towards men") whether in response to sexual harassment or bystander passivity is sexism, this exactly the same "sort of sexism that would write off a whole gender based on the actions of a few of its members" (switchintoglide) (more irony). Why don't you call these women out for being sexist.

    Everything is understandable, I could use this very same argument to justify racism. If I constantly see images of criminal behavior perpetrated largely by black men and then develop negative feelings toward black men (aka racism) is this justified or acceptable? Fuck no.

    If a women has negative feelings toward men in general then she is a sexist, these feelings are irrational, they are the sexists responsibility, they are the sexists fault. This is not my problem. Such women deserve just as much ridicule and shaming as any male sexist.

    Disclaimer: This is a assuming that sexism is inherently wrong, I assume that this is the case for you people.

    Any repetition is an attempt at clarity.

  48. #48

    It's really interesting how these MRAs claim to represent logic and reason and yet every single argument boils down to everything bad that happens ever in the world (whether perpetrated by a man or a woman) is The Wimmins fault. Good luck with that.

  49. #49

    Also, this:

    "In the 90’s when claims of Sexual Harassment became all the rage — and I’ll explain that further down — the way to defeat ANY male that was blocking female advancement or hey, if you plain maybe just didn’t like the guy ; well it was sooo easy to let that one fly."

    is the most hilarious/tragic thing I have ever read, and I think Supreme Court Justice Anita Hill would agree.

  50. #50

    @Jenny

    Cui bono

  51. #51

    Why are men supposed to save women from being harassed? Aren't they supposed to be totally independent self-reliant individuals?

    Wouldn't the woman be suspicious and think Mr. Savior is angling for a way "in," so to speak? Wouldn't men saving women from this trouble reinforce the patriarchy that did it created the trouble in the first place?

  52. #52

    @Jeff:
    Actually, men just shouldn't harrass women.

    The point is, when harrassing takes place, people have to deal with it. And people includes men. So, yes, if a man witnesses another man harrassing a woman, he should step in.

    As for the woman being suspicious about Mr. Saviour's motives: You can prevent that really easily. Just leave her alone as soon as the harrasser is gone.

  53. #53

    I hate men, if the study didn't do it for you, the comments from the asshole men will. Its really easy, just stop harassing women, leave us alone. and i'm glad your aunt raped you.

  54. #54

    i'm one of those radical anarcha-feminists that wants to strike in the dark with a six inch blade.

  55. #55

    Yes, that's the way to address False Accusation.
    By not addressing it.

    Invariably we get here the , "I have never seen or experienced it, therefore it doesn't exist" narrative. Or Jennys denial.

    I'm sure a sentence saying " Oh, by-the-way, yeah,that's not a good thing , but .. " is real discussion.

    The fact is , as noted here in the comments, females WILL NOT be introspective or even seriously attempt to look at their own behaviours. Pure-as-the-driven-snow, yeah sure.
    Because, really that's the underlying theme here.

    You want to portray yourselves as Strong independent women, but also weak and defenseless when it suits. Never can the subject be broached that colours the discussion in women
    a) Being EQUALLY nasty
    b) Being EQUALLY abusive
    c) Using In-equal laws to their advantage

    Notice that I do not deny men do shitty things.
    I also do not deny that women are equally shitty.
    That only comes from .. whom?

    In the end though, folks here are just providing colour commentary. The situation with regard to relation of the sexes, is so set in motion by previous generations actions there is no hope of affecting change.

    Further, as I lean back and crack open a cold one watching this insanity unfold, I can take comfort in the larger mega trends.

    Feminism is finished. As governments at all levels drastically slash their budgets and staffs, as corporations and businesses remove the slightest deadwood and lean down to just essential personnel; the funding and salaries that enabled this Peak Misandry are evaporating like dew in the rising desert sun. All the laws in the world won't help when police are totally overwhelmed ( and understaffed ) and WILL NOT pay any attention to less than the most serious incidents like murder.

    Yeah, the damage to relations between men and women has been enormous. Now, with artificial divisions and restraints removed, we will see how NATURE -- something feminism will never defeat in a thousand years -- proceeds to cure us.

    And the initial pain may not be pleasant.

  56. #56

    Jeff, some women would not want the help, and so in some situations it's possible to ask first. Say a woman is being harassed in a bar, you could offer to say something to the guy and see what she says. Likewise in a workplace, where you'll both see the guy around. You could come up to her later and say "hey, I heard what ____ said to you. Is there anything I can do to help? Do you want me to talk to him or go to management with you?"

    Note that this is a good idea and the commonly decent thing to do no matter the gender of the person who was harassed.

    If the situation seems dangerous in any way, I'd go ahead and step in. If the woman snaps at you or misunderstands your intentions, please be understanding of her situation and just let it go.

  57. #57

    "Actually, men just shouldn't harrass women."

    That's true, but it doesn't quite go far enough:

    People shouldn't harass people.

    Did "Feminism" kill off the code of chivalry, and nullify the "social contract" between men and women? Sure. But it didn't nullify any such ethics between people. If some people are harassing other people, witnesses are justified in calling them on it (at the very least).

  58. #58

    @ihatemen

    The very fact that the women in the study responded to the harassment with negative feelings toward men as a whole is sexism.

    Having negative feelings toward a group (men) based on the actions of a few within that group is sexism. That "anger and fear" that the article speaks of implies that the women in the study were sexist, if this is a representative sample of women then it suggests that most women are in fact sexist. And all on a anti-sexist blog.

    Perhaps you are a troll, but striking in the dark with a six inch blade is pure cowardice, if you are incapable of facing your enemy head on then you truly are a weak individual.

  59. #59

    Chivalry was merely a way for men to show off for one another, so who cares if its dead. Simply being respectful and not a whiny, cowardly douchebag bigot like a lot of the boyz in this thread isn't at all difficult. It's being an adult.

    it never fails to amuse me though that every. single. time. an article that lends support to the fact that it's men who are causing the problems they seek to blame on women, there's always some dishonest, obviously bigotted cowards who come to turn the subject to something else - the imaginary fake rapes, imaginary femnazis,etc.

    One would think that they would eventually realize we can see right through this cowardly, flaccid bullshit, but it never stops them from trying.

    I guess not dealing with reality is easier for these useless cowards. it's hard not to pity these boys.

  60. #60

    "The very fact that the women in the study responded to the harassment with negative feelings toward men as a whole is sexism."

    Uh-huh. The harrassment is totally fine, of course, and totally not a problem. Its how women react to threats to their personal safety that's the REAL problem!

    bitches should just shut up and take it so they don't hurt the misogynistic harrassers fee-fees!

  61. #61

    Curious as to where you are going with this...

    Do you have girlfriends?

    Just got married. Lots of girlfriends before then. Serial monogamist... mostly.

    Have they ever been harassed by other men?
    Yes. Gang stuff.

    Have you ever cat-called a woman?

    Yup. At least what I think of as cat calls.

    If so, why? What did you hope to achieve (or not) with the cat-call?
    To get a number, as research (college experiment), for revenge

  62. #62

    "Feminism is finished. "

    LOL. I love transparently limp arguments like this. You have to marvel at the sheer blind stupidity Joe Smith has to possess to think he's the authority on the state of feminism.

    You know, it's dead cuz he says it is. And he's like, he-man n shit.

    I'm going to go hug my husband. It's such a blessing knowing their are real, live, mature, respectable men in the world.

  63. #63

    @Dorothy

    I'd greatly appreciate men not harassing women, but this study isn't about them. It's about the men who don't harass women, yet don't "step in" to help, a la Kitty Genovese.

    How would a man stepping in solve a woman's problem's with another man solve the problem of the locus of power being with the men and not the women? How would it stop harassment?

    I've actually done this (intervening) before and after college in a Panera Bread place with a particularly surly local, and the only thing college did was add a twinge of guilt to my actions for reinforcing the patriarchy I learned about in Sociologial Theory.

    This is what happens when you teach a whole generation of young boys and men the well-meaning idea that women can be strong independent beings, which is all fine and right, but it stops men from ever wanting to intervene on a woman's behalf for anything, even when it's really serious.

    And the way you phrase Mr. Savior "leaving her alone" after he helps... would saving her also be a "harassment?" Is there any way come out looking good for Prince Charming here? If he doesn't help, he's a patriarchy reinforcing scoundrel, yet if he does intervene he is ALSO a patriarchy enforcing scoundrel who better go away before the woman thinks he's angling for a date.

    There's no way to win, and it requires mental gymnastics to swim through, and by that time the situation's over.

  64. #64

    @Endor

    I wasn't justifying the harassment at all, but you sure are justifying an obviously sexist response to a individual act. Though the nature of a incident is irrelevant in justifying sex prejudice in this case “Hey Kelly, your boobs look great in that shirt!” is not a threat to personal safety so in this you fail.

  65. #65

    MS.MANDY SOMETHING I CAN FINALLY IDENTIFY WITH.

    THIS PIECE IS DEAD ON. YOU WAS LOSING ME WITH THE GROPING SERIES AND THE LYRICAL BREAKDOWNS.

    WHEN I WAS ON THE PROWL I USED TO HATE WHEN DUDES CAME ON STRONG TO LADIES ON THE STREET AND IN ESTABLISHMENTS. THINKING BY SIZING UP A FEMALE'S WARDROBE THAT THEY ARE THE SMASH AND GRAB TYPE. PUTTING THE RUSH ON AND BLOCKING DUDES WHO HAVE REAL GAME. THEM BAMAS ARE JUST LOOKING DOWN THE SCOPE OF THEIR DICKS AND ARE FOCUSED ON ONE THING. SURE THERE ARE THOSE TYPES OF FEMALES THAT LIKE TO BE INVADED AND CONQUERED BUT A TRUE PLAYA HAS TO RECOGNIZE A FEMALES POSITION IN EVERY INSTANCE IF HE WANTS TO ADVANCE.

    ON THE STREET WHAT KILLS ME IS THE THOUGHT THAT GOES BEHIND CALLING A SISTA OUT BY HOW SHE LOOKS, WHAT SHE WEARS AND/OR HER BODY LANGUAGE. I HAVE YET TO KNOW OF A SINGLE DUDE STOPPING A WOMAN IN HER TRACKS AND FULFILLING HIS MISSION BY CAT CALLS AND HORN BLOWING. IF SHE DID STOP SHE WAS A FAKE ASS HO! ANY RESPECTFUL LADY WOULD NOT GIVE THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY THE TIME OF DAY.

    DUDES RUNNING UP ON WOMEN IS THE WORST. YOU COULD TELL IF SHE WAS HARRASSED OR BOTHERED WHEN THE LURCH WAS LOOMING OVER HER TRYIN' TO STRIKE UP CONVO. SMALL TALK BECAME JUST THAT. SHORT AND ONE WORD ANSWERS. SHE BEING VERY DISMISSIVE AND THE BODY LANGUAGE SPOKE LOUDLY IN SAYING LEAVE ME ALONE.

    I MUST SAY THAT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS OF LUNCHTIME CAT WALKS THAT IVE SEEN WOMEN CROSS THE STREET PURPOSELY TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION YOU SPEAK ABOUT. I SAY THIS AS THE EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.

    SO IN CLOSING FELLAS STEP YO GAME UP. STOP DISRESPECTING THE LADIES WITH THE BULLSHIT AND DEGRADING COMMENTS THAT CRAP HAS PLAYED OUT. LEND YOUR OPENINGS WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN "HEY BABY", "SHORTY LET ME HOLLA AT YA" OR SOME OTHER INANE STATEMENT.

  66. #66

    Yes, Endor brilliant rebuttal to my comments. Way to fully address .. oh wait, it was actually EVADE what I pointed out.

    And, it's easy to predict that you won't in the future. See how easy it is to predict future results from past trends?

    You know, cause I'm a man and all, and can think logically , not emotionally.

    Now go give your husband a good strapon'ing.

  67. #67

    Is there any way come out looking good for Prince Charming here?

    I would hope standing up for anyone would be motivated by trying to do the right thing, not trying to look good or "winning." Unfortunately, it's a fact of life you can't always expect to be commended for good deeds, so yes, it's possible the woman in question, for whatever reason, won't be grateful for you stepping in.

    But I'm curious, Jeff, what happened in the Panera Bread incident? Was the victim upset with you?

    How would a man stepping in solve a woman’s problem’s with another man solve the problem of the locus of power being with the men and not the women? How would it stop harassment?

    How do you expect a woman to alter the locus of power in this situation, though? Obviously the harasser doesn't have much regard for her opinion. I also think the hope is that if more men step up against harrassment, more men will see how inappropriate it is. They won't think the woman is just a bitch who can't take a compliment if there's a man who understands that she feels uncomfortable or threatened.

    And, no, it won't solve the woman's problem, but it's nice in a moment like that to see that you're not alone, and I think it can push against any guilt she may feel that she did something wrong to attract that kind of attention.

  68. #68

    @Sarah...

    "There is no excuse or justification for it."

    There is always an excuse for any female sexual abuser. The outcomes of several dozen trials in my state in the past decade prove this to a fault. Prior to that time they couldn't even be charged. The laws' wording, the specific physical descriptions and even the gender specific pronouns used eliminated any possibility of this. Changes were made because female rapists were walking away scott free when it was reported to police. Now we charge them, send them to court, find them guilty and THEN set them free anyway**. All of them! Claims of depression and a few crocodile tears in the courtroom are sufficient to achieve this. The media plays along by reporting all the trials and tribulations of the poor rapist's life thus justifying the inevitable denial of justice we WILL perpetrate.

    (** It is for this reason that I've spoken to politicians about rescinding their late nineties amendments to our rape laws. Why bother? The system doesn't take it seriously anyway. Why hold out the hope of justice to victims when it's only going to be snatched away at the last moment? Every. Single. Time. It merely serves as another act of cruelty.)

    "Take a look at the link I have included below..."

    I am quite familiar with the US DoJ's work. I would suggest to you their study on "Victimization in Juvenile Facilities Reported by Youth, 2008-09" released a couple of months ago - http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2113

    The Justice Dept statistics you reference measure only instances reported to authorities. Male victims report to authorities at a rate about one twentieth that of female victims.

    The broader discourse on these issues does not speak to male victims and on the rare occasions which it does it is only to ridicule or diminish. They cannot answer if we don't speak to them. They will not report if their expectation is derision, disbelief or worse.

    The belittlement I was subjected to in this thread is merely another example albeit a minor one. Why would any abused male speak up if they're going to be subject to more abuse?

    The reality is that there are probably as many male victims of child sexual abuse as female(see "The Invisible Boy") and they are as likely to be abused by either gender. But they simply don't matter either way. There is always a way to marginalise them as victims as I and many other male victims have had lifetimes to learn. Let me count the ways.

    Parsing this...
    "Men and boys do suffer rape, but less than 1% of that rape is perpetrated by women."

    More like a quarter where children are concerned.

    "You have to split that 1% with women who rape other women, you see."

    No. You don't. Female perpetrated child sexual abuse is ninety five percent heterosexual. Male perpetrated abuse is about two thirds heterosexual. Virtually all the abuse of girls is perpetrated by men. For boys it's just as likely from either gender.

    "I am not undermining the pain and trauma of males that do get raped"

    No. Instead you're minimising it's frequency away to virtually zero. I just got lucky, I guess, as I've been reminded for decades. Hit the jackpot. Won the lottery. Privileged. Given a gift. All these things and more. From feminists, non-feminists, anti-feminists, women, men, you name it. Shouldn't be surprised. All this occurs within communities totally ignorant about this abuse and it is buttressed by a discourse and advocacy which serves only to reinforce that ignorance.

    "...but I don’t think that feminism or tougher rape laws have led to an increase in female-on-male rape."

    No, they haven't. It's always been there. However feminism HAS ensured that male victims and victims of female perpetrators continue to be marginalised. Silly me used to believe that it was the patriarchy that was thoroughly invested in monopolisation on behalf of one gender. Maybe I was blinded by my "male privilege".

    In answer to your subsequent questions...

    Do you have girlfriends? Not since 2000 when I said no to the last one's demands for sex when she turned up drunk at 2pm. I still have the scars around my scrotum which she thankfully did not remove as she threatened. Giving into her demands may be the reason she didn't. Instant end of a relationship of twelve months duration and which I should have ended nearly twelve months earlier. Her hatred of her ex husband was galactic in scale.

    Have they ever been harassed by other men? No more than I've been harassed by women. And I dicussed this with several of my partners.

    Have you ever cat-called a woman? No. I have called a woman a "cat" however.

    The rest becomes non sequitur by definition.

  69. #69

    Why should I step in anyway, I would expect a women to fight her own battles, it is a sign of weakness if she cannot and as such undeserving of respect regardless of the fact that she is a victim. This is all about shaming men that treat women the same way they would treat men. So what you may ignorantly term as bystander sexism is really equality from the male perspective. This is of course in nonviolent circumstances.

    With respect to violence then such is already covered well by the law what more protection do you need. When the violence is not dire then you can simply file assault charges just like I would do. In cases of extreme violence I would probably intervene yet even this is a act of charity. If you expect help then you are not independent, you are dependent.

    If you think you have the right not to hear sexist comments then you really do not deserve freedom of speech . I embrace the possible negatives of freedom as a small price to pay for this freedom, I hope you all do to.

  70. #70

    "It’s only sexual harassment IF the woman isn’t attracted to you."

    That doesn't matter. The guy could be the cutest man on the planet but if he comes up to me with "Bitch, can I lick your p***y?" or something equally vulgar, then it's harassment and I'd want nothing to do with him!

    Looks don't matter, the action and intent do.

  71. #71

    All of this talk about men being raped is very serious, but it sort of puzzles me that men think it is feminism that doesn't take male rape seriously, and not patriarchy. Men don't report rape very often when it happens to them because of a fear of diminished masculinity and therefore social status, not because of feminist rape propagande. Just because there are women and trans survivors of rape doesn't mean there aren't male survivors too, the zero-sum logic puzzles me. Denying male rape is a larger part of patriarchal rape culture:

    "Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch"). Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform in part because the threat of being raped in prison is considered an acceptable deterrent to committing crime, and the threat only works if actual men are actually being raped.

    Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is not even talking about the reality that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives. Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women's daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you're alone, if you're with a stranger, if you're in a group, if you're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you're carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you're wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who's at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn't follow all the rules it's your fault.

    Rape culture is victim-blaming. Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. Rape culture is accusing a child of enjoying being held hostage, raped, and tortured. Rape culture is spending enormous amounts of time finding any reason at all that a victim can be blamed for hir own rape.

    Rape culture is judges banning the use of the word rape in the courtroom. Rape culture is the media using euphemisms for sexual assault. Rape culture is stories about rape being featured in the Odd News."

    More at: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

    There was a lot of feminist concern, for example, when the Ke$ha song "Blah blah blah" came out, for it seemed to talk about her taking advantage of a man while he was intoxicated. Rape and sexual harassment are wrong, and saying it happens more to women than it does to men does not deny that is happens to men.

    And yes, a false rape claim is a shitty thing to do. No one should make any excuses for that, feminist or otherwise.

    However, male privilege is also very real, because while a lot of the men on here cry "sexism" or "misandry" because women are less likely to identify with men after witnessing sexual harassment, I don't think you conceptualise of the fact that when a woman is touched, groped, catcalled, harassed, raped, told she isn't good enough by the media, treated like meat when she works as a bartender or a waitress, etc., etc., more than once in her life, defensiveness against men is a response. Misogyny exists because that is how we have ordered our society, and it can exist when a male is victimised, but it also can exist when he is not. Women can also be misogynists: that is the culture in which we live. In fact, because of our misogynist culture, I am amazed that there are som many male allies wh have not taken the path of ignorance and privilege--I am impressed every day by my male colleagues who take a stand against this culture that we are indoctrinated in to, because it hurts men too. When I see the men in my life stand up for what they know is right, stand up against misogyny, I have seen them called "pussies" "fags" "whipped""castrated" by other men. Feminism seeks to liberate men and from the idea that they have to police each other's masculinity and de-value femininity in themselves and in others, and liberate women from de-valuing masculinity in women and their own femininity. Frankly I don't see how a project to loosen up the strict borders that police out gender choices, for all people, women, men, trans, is a bad idea.
    "Reverse sexism" is a response to misogyny, not a grand feminist scheme that exists is a vacuum.
    The narrative that feminists and women hate men has to stop in order for us to progress on this topic. I love the men in my life, and a support and care for a lot of male friends; especially my male friends who are policed everyday for being gay or trans. My partner, a straight male, is the best person in my world, how could I want to throw him or his gender under the bus?
    As for me, I was abused by my mother, and I really wanted my father to get custody, but he couldn't in a legal system that presumes men are bad fathers--that is not a feminist thing! If we seek parity between the sexes, including shared parenting, why would we have an investment in painting men as bad fathers? TRADITIONAL FAMILY VALUES and MISOGYNY are what inform decisions like that which deny men of their rights as parents, saying that motherhood is a traditional women's role and therefore men cannot have custody. The same is true of rape. I really find all of this feminist scapegoating strange in a sense, because the issue exist because of patriarchy, but we blame them on feminism.

    And no one is saying that women are perfect, again, my mother abused me and my siblings, but did not have her rights as a parent taken away because of the pervasive narrative that women are "natural" nurturers, which is so 1950s sexism that it is illogical to blame that on feminism.

    If the men trolling this site really want to end their own oppression, and simultaneously own up to male/masculine privilege, I would suggest reading deeper into what feminism is, and finding that feminine inside themselves that they have had to repress and police. Patriarchy hurts us all by relegating us to strict gender binaries, and then setting those binaries up against one another. And feminism and humanism are about blurring those borders--how could you hate that?

  72. #72

    Also, I have huge issues with the prison-industrial complex, so I don't think more reporting and criminalisation will to our society any favours. Education and social support are key in stopping men and women from raping and sexually harassing in the first place.

    As a feminist, I DO take issue with how the issue of rape and sexual harassment has had survivors playing in to an oppressive criminal justice system. Feminists do not believe in all of the issues that fall under the banner of feminism, in fact, it is a divided "movement" if you can even call it that. Personally, as a supporter of trans and queer rights, and as an anti-racist activist, I don't like a lot of what happens within feminism to erase other marginalised groups who are disproportionately affected by the prison industrial complex (trans people, people of colour, queers). The culture of rape means that these rapes and incidences of sexual assault/harassment have to be handled by an unjust system.

    So yes, men and women stopping sexual harassment when they see it is a much better way to go about stopping this rape culture from continuing on a social level in such a way that we avoid these issues being handled juridically as much as possible.

  73. #73

    Amanda, I think I should give you some sort of prize for that response from Noodlez. :)

    I was going to post a (probably long) response recounting all the times I didn't accuse my male coworkers, friends, and even complete strangers of sexually harassing me when they made small talk, became my friend, or even asked me out. But it's lost on these guys. I'm not playing the "oh you must not be able to get laid" card in the slightest, but simply referring to the difference between leering/inappropriate comments and "hi, how are you today, the weather sure is beautiful, I heard that you are a fan of X sports team/your team rocked last night/I heard your a fan of X TV show/I like it too -or- think it sucks, I like that shirt/shoes/belt, want to come out for a drink with us (or even just me) tonight?" It's not about smoothness, but civility. I'm a person, not just a piece of meat, in the latter situation - I have preferences in sports teams, TV shows, and clothing, which they may or may not agree with (shocking, I know, to think that a woman could care about anything other than screwing/screwing over the right set of men). I'll leave that commentary at that.

    What is so much more important is what happens when I talk to my sensitive, respectful, well-educated male friends about these topics. Most of them try to understand, try to sympathize, give me a shoulder to cry on, but obviously don't get it. BUT, the few who have read feminist theory/taken women's studies or women's issues classes seem to get it. Those are some seriously enlightening discussions. I recommend it highly, and talking to those who don't get it helps us and them, too!

  74. #74

    I'll stand up right here and happily declare that I fully support traditional family values, they are the basis for the construction of civilization. I'm glad you brought up this topic Switch, cause I believe from my readings and observation that it is a linchpin in Feminist theory.

    As the feminists of the 1960's and 70's led the charge of their movement, they clearly expressed that they wanted to see the destruction of the family. This was integrated with the desire for Marxist / Communist rule. Yes, the leaders said it openly, the quotes are readily available.
    It's easily seen that exchanging the Proletariat / Bourgeise dynamic for men / women was the basis. Nothing new under the sun ..

    Oh, and denying it or saying "we're not like that now " ain't changing squat.

    Now we come to the KEY dynamic that is the unspoken within Feminism. The MOST censored of all subjects in their theory. And it's easy to see why.

    Why, really, do feminists want to see the family destroyed? Civilizations arise from the construction of the pairing off of one man and one woman -- uncontested by interference by persons or state -- leading to the creation of a family. The assertions about some sort of patriarchal oppression as de rigeur are laughable, but must be recognized as the decoy arguments they are intended to be.

    The insistence that men metaphorically chained their wives to the home while they sang and made merry at work with their buddy pals with their Patriarch Privilege cards is fine fine fiction. Most jobs, even as they do today , aren't that rewarding and the vast majority probably suck. Back then though it was worse. Inhuman working conditions in many industrial settings and we were industrial and production oriented back then. And who got called up to go to war? Men. Such a privilege to knowingly go over the top to your death!

    But , I digress.

    The destruction of the traditional family is by necessity the requirement for female Hypergamy . There, the taboo is broken. I said it.

    To believe that female Hypergamy is not one of the most mightily destructive civilizational forces ever encountered is to deny what is visible in front of your eyes. And evidenced by data.

    The question I put to the feminists here is: now that you have unleashed this pandemic, how do you see it playing out.

    Please stay on topic thank you. That is: female hypergamy and it's effects upon civilization.

    Thank you.

  75. #75

    @switchintoglide...
    "Men don’t report rape very often when it happens to them because of a fear of diminished masculinity and therefore social status, not because of feminist rape propagande."

    HEY!

    How about you allow male victims to speak for themselves as to why they don't report instead of inventing reasons that fit your own ideology.

    YOU WOULDN'T AND COULDN'T KNOW. HOW DARE YOU PRESUME.

  76. #76

    @ Mrs. D. I know! I think there's a respectful dude inside that hard, capitalized exterior!

  77. #77

    I don't believe in marriage for myself, as I want my partner and I to be free to make informed decisions about our relationship as equals, not because of a contractual obligation. I don't mind if others are married though, because it's not up t me how other people have relationships.

    I just ask, in the age of birth control, why women are tied socially to their biology? Yes, gender roles made a lot of sense before birth control, I wouldn't argue that, but because of medicinal and technical improvements in the live of humans, we have the opportunity to exercise a lot more choice in our lives about our genders.

    Gender roles made sense when there was little public/private childcare available too, because women who were pregnant or mothers couldn't enter the workforce. No one is saying anything different.

    But when women have the opportunities to have careers and not be subject to their biology, why should men not want to be stay-at-home/part-time parents too? Men limit themselves by stigmatising stay-at-home dads and other more "effeminate" male roles. Women also need to accept men as parents and make that choice more realistic for a man to make.

    Relationships should be about negotiation, not rigidly defined roles.

    Female hypergamy,if you even look it up, is said to be furthered by strict gender roles.

    "Hypergamic behaviours can be explained in terms of genetic economic necessity, in which societies with high levels of gender inequality are more likely to have women who "marry-up" for the benefit of their children, and more likely to have men who "marry-down" to ensure that their mates have a higher incentive to remain faithful.[3]"
    -First section of Wikipedia

    Read your own sources. Hypergamy happens because of the system we live in. If men and women were social equals as partners and parents, took equal responsibility or at least agreed upon unequal reponsibility, then this sort of trend wouldn't exist. There is no denying that women often marry for money and men for looks, but I cannot believe that you logically connect that to feminism.

    That, and I completely support my partner financially, I make a lot more than him and I will get a lot more education that him simply because I have chosen an academic career & scholarships and he has chosen a writing/film journalist career. This has happened because we treat each other as equals, and make sure that the other is doing what s/he is passionate about. Hypergamy would not happen in a society where women were social equals and could excercise full choice. If we have full choice, we have a wider range of things to look for in a partner.

    If we have full choice, we could choose how, when, how many children we want to have/if we want to have children.

    Feminists do not want to see the family destroyed, but it would be nice to see the definition of the family widened to incorporate all kinds of arrangements, such as common-law couples, more adoption, shared parenting, increased public childcare, homosexual couples, polyamourous parents with children, multi-generational families, young parents, single parents, community parenting. Really if we were more accepting we could just have more types of families instead of THE family.

    Also the independent nuclear family living in suburbia is an environmental nightmare, so if we want to think critically about how we live on this earth we will have to think of new social arrangements to accommodate for the realities of our changing biosphere.

  78. #78

    @switchintoglide

    "However, male privilege is also very real, because while a lot of the men on here cry “sexism” or “misandry” because women are less likely to identify with men after witnessing sexual harassment, I don’t think you conceptualise of the fact that when a woman is touched, groped, catcalled, harassed, raped, told she isn’t good enough by the media, treated like meat when she works as a bartender or a waitress, etc., etc., more than once in her life, defensiveness against men is a response."

    -------------

    Regurgitating the subject of the article doesn't make it right.

    Here we have women who associate negatively with men as a whole based on the actions of a few men. This is sexism, this is not rational, you are justifying irrational feelings. I could quote you on this very definition in which you accuse a man of being sexist. Please clarify this "Reverse sexism" that asserts that female sexism is somehow acceptable.

    Also your talk of male privilege and pervasive misogyny
    is nothing but baseless rhetoric.

  79. #79

    @gwallan
    I didn't mean to generalise, I was just reporting the reality of why is is so hard for men to come forward, especially when we, as a culture, joke about male rape so much as if it were funny.

    There is a real social barrier for men to talk about the rape that happens to them, and that too is a feminist issue that needs to be tackled. Maybe that wasn't your personal experience, but that is the culture in which we all live.

    I have heard the rape jokes all the time, and I actually work with sexual assault survivors at a crisis centre, so yes I CAN and DO know. I am also trying to be an ally and supporter to you here on the case of male rape, so I have no idea why you are attacking me.

  80. #80

    @ Golden Silence

    You're making the same mistake that your girl Sarah made....

    In fact, this "mistake" seems to be very prevalent in the majority of today's post-feminist women....

    You think that you're the center of the universe. And because of that, you think you speak for all women.

    In other words....

    If it's not happening to you, then it's not happening at all.

    [Charlie Murphy]Wrong. Wrong! WRONG!![/Charlie Murphy]

    Reality check...

    Unless you're closet lesbian, then...

    Being a woman does NOT mean you know the sexual nature of women.

    You'd be surprised what women respond to....

    Especially if said "cat-caller" gets their panties milky moist.

    (So, to answer your question Sarah....

    Yes, I have done the occasional "cat-calling". And I did it BECAUSE IT WORKED.)

    Now, you and Sarah might not be "like that". And that's cool. But, if the two of you see yourselves as the rule.....

    Then you two obviously need to wake up and get a clue.

  81. #81

    Joe Smith, you're not asking for a dialogue or a discussion. You want to preach. Posting a comment with your beliefs, and then saying "and don't argue this or that" is cutting all debate off. By the way, ordering people to stay on your chosen topic is rude. This is not your blog, or your post.

    That said, blaming one gender, who has, for all of history, been subjugated for the ruin of the world is ridiculous. Oppressing and restricting the freedom of any group is wrong, but you have already chosen not to believe that. Believing a group thrown together based off an arbitrary characteristic is easier than breaking down societal structures, and finding what action causes what consequence. It is especially easy to blame a group that you do not belong to.

    All people are people. All people deserve to choose how to spend their lives, and to live free of being the target of a crime.

    One thing I've noticed lately is that people are using "freedom of speech" (a very US-centric term, by the way) to dismiss sexual harassment. What is forgotten, or dismissed here is the fact that your freedom ends where another's begins. You can walk around swinging your fists all the day long, but not if you're hitting another person.

    People have also been forgetting lately that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. If you want to spread untruths, it is my right to say you're lying.

    Much as you might try, your typed words aren't going to erase the experiences of millions of women around the world.

    By the way, all those men postulating whether or not calling out someone for sexual harassment is wrong--no, it's not. We all live in the same world. Nipping actions in the bud, when they've not escalated to violence or other bad behavior, is making the community at large a safer place. Like other commenters have said, telling someone off for harassing someone shouldn't be done for kudos and attention from the target (a silly reason to risk your own safety, I think) but because it's right. It makes the community, and all the people in it, safer, happier, and more productive. Complacence will only make the world worse.

  82. #82

    GrimmNoir:

    You're an idiot. Didn't take as much space to say that as you took to say all you had to me.

    "You think that you’re the center of the universe."

    I don't think that...I know it! Of course I put myself and my well being first.

    "And because of that, you think you speak for all women."

    I speak for me and my experiences. I did not say I was the representative for all women. But once again, since you're a simple-minded idiot who doesn't know how to function past a kindergarden level, feel free to continue to make assumptions and put words in my mouth.

    That's all the time I have left for feeding the trolls.

  83. #83

    Well Switch, Hypergamy is totally about female choice.

    Let's review. Females do the choosing. They choose who they will have as partners and no amount of arguing from any potential suitor will in any way have the slightest effect upon that. I think you know full well this is the case, not sure why the bass-ackwards assertion on your part?

    Wait, it could be that you are misunderstanding my statement so I will redefine it. Hypergamy in context of todays Feminist modified culture is : woman CHOOSING to harem for many years to the most desirable males before finally pairing off in the twilight fertile years. Basically , many women after just a few top guys during their salad ( or perhaps I should say more accurately, their party ) years. As evidenced by females with twice the STD rate of men, in just one example.

    Hypergamy, always a latent and dormant powerful tendency within women, was constrained by the family system. Fathers, mothers and grandmothers advised and monitored their daughters behaviours to prevent it. It is only now, with the full release of female "choice" upon an formerly unaware populace, that another of the rotting fruits of feminism can be observed.

    As for transgender issues : this is a such a small subset of the population , in what the .000something range, that I and most others don't give a damn about it ( as in,do what you want). It's when they want MONEY from us that it bothers us. We don't need scare resources allocated to this when there are way more financially pressing issues of the day.

  84. #84

    Somewhere back up in this long series of posts was a request that men should intervene when they witness street harassment.

    Um. No.

    If women are so strong and independent, why cannot they stand up for themselves in those situations?

    Also, the type of man who is a street harasser is not the type of guy who will take well to "please, do you mind not doing that?"

    Intervening could result in a beating. Frankly, some male bully is far more likely to beat on another man than a woman.

    Why should I take a beating for a total stranger?

  85. #85

    It's embarrassing it seems that the only things men have to say here are about the threat of feminism. sigh. so ironic, given the article. fwiw, this man is grateful to the women in this thread (and in my life) who are willing to teach. i'm also grateful for those who continue to find healthy ways to deal with their justifiable rage.

    the article reminds me that male supremacy (and the demeaning activity necessary to maintain it) damages all of us. the comment thread reminds me that there is much work to do!

    @Joe Smith. you are hilarious.

    @gwallan. feminism is not competing with you. i hope you find healing.

    @switchingtoglide. thanks for sharing your clarity!

  86. #86

    Thanks Ldorado, cute name by the way! You seem lovely.

  87. #87

    Ldorado : Pink is your colour right? You looks so masculine in it. Don't forget to say Hi to your friend Hugo.

  88. #88

    @ S
    "Here we have women who associate negatively with men as a whole based on the actions of a few men. This is sexism, this is not rational, you are justifying irrational feelings. I could quote you on this very definition in which you accuse a man of being sexist. Please clarify this “Reverse sexism” that asserts that female sexism is somehow acceptable.

    Also your talk of male privilege and pervasive misogyny
    is nothing but baseless rhetoric."

    Sexism is not acceptable, but there is not an equal playing field here. I am not excusing the fact that women have generalised men to some extent when they have responded as such to the above study, but I would draw a parallel to race questions here:

    If a white person generalises about a Person of Colour, that is racism, but if a Person of Colour, after being harassed, underrepresented, stereotyped, their whole life, and identifies more with his/her group/has more negative feelings towards white people after seeing an incident of racism, that is not the same thing. I say this as a white person: "racism" directed towards white people is a response to white racism--and is most definitely not on the same playing field as white racism. As a white person I have had to own up to my white privilege and work to combat racism. As a male, you have the responsibility to own up to your male privilege and stop sexism in the first place if you want to help the women and men in your lives. We all have a lot to benefit from working towards equity.

    We can all recall that women have not had very many rights throughout most of history, and neither have many People of Colour since the 1960s! We have a ways to go as a society in overcoming the narratives that pervade from those eras.

    @Joe Smith
    I am trying to engage you in a thoughtful way here, but from the sounds of it, you have some deep-seated assumptions about some essential character of women:

    "Hypergamy, always a latent and dormant powerful tendency within women, was constrained by the family system."

    How do you know this? Are we all like that? I can't really respond to you if you are going to totalise like that, and especially if you talk about women as somehow sub-human in needing to be "restrained" as if we are animals by some family system--a family system which has a very recent history too, and is by not mean "natural": childhood was not invented as a cultural construct until the Romantic era for example; before then, children were thought to be "little adults" and not a special class.

    Also @ everyone:

    I am not too happy with just dismissing people as "trolls", if anyone has read Hannah Arendt (a la "The Banality of Evil"), the more one dismisses the oppressor as a "monstrous construction" of sorts, the less capable we become of seeing ourselves in the other and solving problems. Maybe the best way would be to refrain from sarcastic comments on others' character and more seeking to understand and change the deeply-held viewpoints that oppress. A lot of the "trolling" is attention-seeking, yes, but I think a lot of it is a cry for help, conversation and information. Let's help these guys out.

  89. #89

    Pink is your colour right? You looks so masculine in it. Don’t forget to say Hi to your friend Hugo.

    I think we have a winner. Who wanted to know reasons why men don't report rape? That's it, right there.

  90. #90

    @Joe Smith:

    When you said:
    "Ldorado : Pink is your colour right? You looks so masculine in it. Don’t forget to say Hi to your friend Hugo."

    You exemplified my point:
    "When I see the men in my life stand up for what they know is right, stand up against misogyny, I have seen them called “pussies” “fags” “whipped”"castrated” by other men. Feminism seeks to liberate men and from the idea that they have to police each others' masculinity and de-value femininity in themselves and in others,"

    You used your statement to make assumptions about and police his masculinity. Your behaviour right there is one of the main reasons men have trouble getting support when they have been raped, so I would like to respectfully suggest that you consider how your behaviours negatively effects other men.

    That, and your comment reeked of homophobia, which to me seeks quite immature and disrespectful. It seems like it may be asking a lot to ask you to respect your fellow person here if that person is a woman or a feminist man.

    On the other hand, thanks for supporting my arguments!

  91. #91

    If women are so strong and independent, why cannot they stand up for themselves in those situations?

    Um, for the same reason you're afraid of getting beaten up?

    I wouldn't expect anyone to take a beating for me, by the way. But if it was a situation in which they did feel comfortable intervening, I'd hope they would. If it was their friend harassing someone, I'd hope they'd talk to them about it. And if the situation did escalate, I'd hope they'd call the police.

  92. #92

    "If it was their friend harassing someone, I’d hope they’d talk to them about it. And if the situation did escalate, I’d hope they’d call the police."

    I do not associate with men who would be so rude as to engage in street harassment so I don't have to convince my friends to do anything.

    Also, the most often police show up after the beating occurs. The last vistages of the code of chivalry ends when violence is a distinct possibility.

    My point about how a male bully will usually attack another man still stands. As feminism is the radical concept that women are people too, would it not be in the spirit of equality to expect women to stand up the street harasser?

  93. #93

    @ Zammo,

    I appreciate where you are coming from here, even though you are being sarcastic:
    "As feminism is the radical concept that women are people too, would it not be in the spirit of equality to expect women to stand up the street harasser?"
    The reality is a lot of women do stand up, but it means something different when a man stands up to his peers.

    Also, I stand up for my male friends whenever homophobia/disableism/racism is thrown in their direction. It means something different, for example, when I call my fellow white friends out on unintended racism and stereotyping towards an asian friend--THEY LISTEN, because I am being an ally in front of my peers. It is really the least a person can do.

    I have also called out random people for this stuff when I see it; if we want to see a civil society, we have to take it upon ourselves to make that happen.

    If you would want someone to help you when you are being unfairly targeted, you should do the same.

  94. #94

    The reality is a lot of women do stand up, but it means something different when a man stands up to his peers.

    Yes, it means he is putting himself at a distinct risk of violence being committed against him.

    I'm not martyring myself at the alter of political correctness.

  95. #95

    well then you, personally, don't have to "martyr yourself at the alt[a]r of political correctness."No one has a gun to your head.

    But don't stigmatise other men for doing so.

  96. #96

    @ Golden Silence

    "I don’t think that…I know it!"

    Yeah....

    I used to think that I was God's special and unique creature as well.

    Then I turned 5.

    And thank you for reinforcing my arguments.

    :)

  97. #97

    "But don’t stigmatise other men for doing so."

    No stigma intended.

    Just let a man catch a good beating and he will quickly learn on his own the perils of supporting an ideological agenda out on the mean streets.

  98. #98

    And judging from the posts....

    I strongly suggest you ladies learn jujitsu or some shit.

    Because it looks like you're on your own.

    "Chivalry is dead. And women killed it." - Dave Chapelle

  99. #99

    Also @ Zammo

    The very fact that you are afraid of violence at the hands of these seemingly "benign" street harassers is also indicative of a systemic problem: why is violence associated so strongly with masculinity, and how does this effect men's interactions with each other and women?

    If you are afraid of the potentiality of violence at the hands of men in particular that is indicative of a societal problem that YOU can have a personal investment in fixing.

  100. #100

    Nope, Switch, I have the right NOT to accept male Homosexuality. Call it what you wish. I find it distasteful and repugnant. And you know where that comes from .. having been around them for a few years.

    It was I who openly talked with them, did not judge them ( despite them doing some pretty shitty stuff around me ), and treated them just like everybody else. That is what they wanted right? However, many ( I would say most ) that I associated with then tried to secretly eg. without making me aware of it , label me to others as Gay or potentially gay. Pretty funny huh? Any idea what that did do most of my relationships with friends and ladies?

    The answer I found was to drop any niceness to them, be hardnosed and tell them to GTFO or else. That ended THOSE problems. See, they trained me well. I deal with them as they ACTUALLY prefer to be treated or respected.

    Often in life I have found that what a person or group says is very different from their actual actions.

    Though the feminists here would claim that being more open and feeling and sensitive to would THE huge adjustment that men need to make, REALITY confirms it is just a horrible mistake. As they will learn by experience. Yes, it sounds sooo good , on paper.

    Just that, life isn't like that. Not at all.
    As I said before, a thousand years of feminist indoctrination isn't going to change human behaviour in any major way over any significant length of time.

  101. #101

    "If you are afraid of the potentiality of violence at the hands of men in particular that is indicative of a societal problem that YOU can have a personal investment in fixing."

    Tell ya what. I know some really ugly neighborhoods in various American cities. You and some like-minded fellows can canvas those neighborhoods talking to the local men about this very issue. I am sure they will be quite receptive to the polite and informed point of view that you have.

    They will also be quite receptive to using your spleen as a punching bag. But ideology is more important than internal injuries, no?

    Meanwhile, I will be enjoying a cold beer and watching some fine entertainment on the television.

  102. #102

    @ switchingtoglide

    "If you are afraid of the potentiality of violence at the hands of men in particular that is indicative of a societal problem that YOU can have a personal investment in fixing."

    I don't think the fear of potential violence is the problem (Love the "coward" implication by the way. Real classy.)....

    I think the problem is that men are no longer willing to risk the threat of violence in order to defend the "honor" of a woman who most likely won't appreciate it.

    And oh yeah....

    I notice how when the men ask why you "strong and independent" women don't defend yourselves....

    You seem to tapdance around that.

    But yet...

    You're quick to imply that those same men are cowards for not wanting to come to your rescue.

    Look...

    You can't be "strong and independent" or a perpetual "victim" when it suits you.

    Contrary to what the Gloria Steinhems (God, that rancid bitch needs to DIE already!) taught you....

    YOU CANNOT HAVE IT ALL.

  103. #103

    I'm a bit confused right now, the dudes here that fear to get beaten violently when they stand up to a man harrassing a woman ... are they the same dudes who say that it's ridiculous for a woman to feel threatened by harrassment?
    Or do we have two branches of misogynists here? One that claims harrassment isn't a problem and one that claims harrassment is a problem, but they are too afraid to stand up against it?

  104. #104

    @ Dorothy

    The last time I checked...

    "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."

    Ergo...

    It's now women's problem.

    So, show us how strong and independent all of you are....

    And deal with it on your own.

    And by the way...

    A misogynist is a man who thinks women are rational, logical human beings and expects them to behave as such.

  105. #105

    You can’t be “strong and independent” or a perpetual “victim” when it suits you.

    I don't get this mindset that wanting to be strong and independent, wanting to have an autonomous existence, completely bars women from getting help when they need it. Since when are strong and independent people never victimized?

  106. #106

    "but they are too afraid to stand up against it?"

    Tell ya what, you take the beating. I'm drinking beer and watching TV, remember?

    I have no particular interest in confronting some street thug with a big mouth and no manners on behalf of someone who is uncaring and ingrateful.

  107. #107

    @ all the boys up in here:

    @ Joe Smith.
    I give up on you. If you can't accept that homophobia is not ok, I don't think we are really going to be able to see eye to eye.

    @GrimmNoir
    "I notice how when the men ask why you “strong and independent” women don’t defend yourselves….

    You seem to tapdance around that.

    But yet…

    You’re quick to imply that those same men are cowards for not wanting to come to your rescue.

    Look…

    You can’t be “strong and independent” or a perpetual “victim” when it suits you."

    I said that I DO stand up for myself. And no, I did not imply anyone was a coward--you are extrapolating that, and I am guessing that comes from your personal experience, so I'm not going to judge. I am not asking anyone to save me or anyone else, and I am not being a perpetual victim: what YOU are doing is taking your assumptions about women and inscribing those things ON to what I say.

    I am strong an independent, and no amount of harassment could change that. But, I do appreciate it when people help each other, and I think it is strange that you all would find the idea of helping another person so abhorrent because that person is a woman or a feminist--that doesn't sit well with me, because I would help you if you were being harassed.

    Calling someone a coward would be policing their masculinity--that's not what I'm about. You should know that by now.

    BTW I'm not a big Steinem fan as all, but I think that's because she has some really imperialist tendencies and doesn't recognise her white privilege. Calling her a "rancid bitch" however is very telling as to how you view outspoken women. Maybe you might want to engage with why her IDEAS make you angry rather than make such a gross and degrading remark about her personhood.

    @Zammo
    "Tell ya what. I know some really ugly neighborhoods in various American cities. You and some like-minded fellows can canvas those neighborhoods talking to the local men about this very issue. I am sure they will be quite receptive to the polite and informed point of view that you have."

    You have a lot of assumptions about the people in these "ugly neighborhoods" that are perhaps founded on some of your misconceptions about class and race. I live in a poor neighborhood mostly with marginalised Francophone immigrants and Anglophone young black families. I have never had any serious problems here, except for a few men abrubtly asking me on a date and being very gracious about it when I turned them down by exlaining that I am seeing somene. I have my problems with street harassment downtown on my very upper-class white university campus when half of the engineering department walks by and shouts things at me that I don't even want to repeat.
    When you work with communities where there is a lot of violence IN REAL LIFE and not from your computer chair maybe then we'll talk; but for now, I will stick with my very real experience of having had great conversations in my own "ugly" community.

  108. #108

    @Zammo:
    I don't want me or you or anyone else to take a beating. I was just pointing out the slight discrepancy between this statement and what was said earlier in the thread and in the last one about harrassment, namely that women shouldn't feel threatened by harrassment, because it "isn't threatening".

  109. #109

    "your misconceptions about class and race"

    I mentioned nothing about race or class. Perhaps your preconceived misconceptions are showing?

    And note, as a woman, you are being treated differently. It sounds like you are reaping the rewards of chivalry because of your gender.

  110. #110

    Poor widdle menz can't approach women they don't know. Somebody call the wahmbulance.

  111. #111

    switchintoglide wrote: If a white person generalises about a Person of Colour, that is racism, but if a Person of Colour, after being harassed, underrepresented, stereotyped, their whole life, and identifies more with his/her group/has more negative feelings towards white people after seeing an incident of racism, that is not the same thing.

    Actually, it is the same thing. Both are prejudice born out of misunderstanding, bigotry, indifference and/or hatred. The only difference is the reason why it occurred. Of course, the situations as you presented them are sufficiently one-sided enough to not cause any issues. However, let us use a different example to demonstrate this point.

    A little over ten years ago a young black boy was attacked in a predominantly white area of Chicago by a group of white boys. They specifically assaulted him (and tried to beat him friends) because he was black and in the "wrong" neighborhood. A year or so ago a similar assault happened in a Chicago suburb. This time a group of black boys beat a white boy specifically because he was a "goofy looking" white child.

    Reasonably speaking, it is likely both boys developed a wariness towards the opposite race. They may likely stick to their own race and may harbor negative and even racist views about the opposite race as a result of their experience. Likewise, there are plenty of black families who have constantly told their children about "white folks" and as result those children, never having experienced racism, may harbor negative and racist views towards white people.

    The point is simply that the situation is not always clear cut in which one side always reacts reasonably and the other always reacts unreasonably. One should be careful excusing bad behavior, and one should avoid doing so specifically for one's own group as such excuses demonstrate prejudice and also unfortunately lead to excusing greater, more egregious acts and behaviors.

    Dorothy wrote: think we have a winner. Who wanted to know reasons why men don’t report rape? That’s it, right there.

    What is more likely to prevent men from reporting rape are claims that men and boys never get raped, women never rape, that males only make up less than 1% of the victims and calling any mentioning negative male experiences "denying your male privilege." Those probably ensure that boys and men will not report rape, or will at least avoid mentioning it to feminists, although one could argue that in regards to this issue feminists almost make the Vatican look slightly less vile.

    I don’t want me or you or anyone else to take a beating. I was just pointing out the slight discrepancy between this statement and what was said earlier in the thread and in the last one about harrassment, namely that women shouldn’t feel threatened by harrassment, because it “isn’t threatening”.

    There is not a discrepancy because it two different acts. One would have to demonstrate that women face a similar or equal risk for physical assault if they stepped in. Statistically, males are far more likely to be assaulted by strangers than females, and situations in which a person is behaving belligerently arguably increases that likelihood. It is possible that someone who is being verbally belligerent will not become physically violent with the women he is harassing, but that might not hold true for any male. So in terms of risk, is reasonable for men to be wary of stepping in on situations. One is essentially demanding that men take a beating, and while one may regard violence against males as a reasonable trade for protecting one's feelings, it is not likely that many males will consider a potential hospital visit a fair trade for objecting to someone making a vulgar comment about a woman's breasts.

  112. #112

    Ahahaha, "one would have to demonstrate that women face a similar or equal risk for physical assault" - otherwise it is unreasonable to feel uncomfortable by being harrassed? You really are too much sometimes.

  113. #113

    @switchintoglide. great stuff! i like the definition attributed to Judith Katz: prejudice plus power.

    @Toysoldier and others. i find it disturbing and puzzling this idea that feminism somehow makes male rape acceptable. i didn't report the sexual assault i endured as a kid because i was in pain, i felt powerless and confused and didn't know how to talk about it. it sure wasn't because i had heard any of the stuff you mention. in my view, feminism is all about addressing assault and respecting boundaries. if there had been more feminism in my youth and education, i could have avoided a lot of trouble!

    @Zammo and GrimmNoir. i'm kind of floored that you think taking a pass on calling out a harasser is righteously refusing to 'defend her honor' or 'serving some p.c. agenda' or being martyred at some theoretical altar.

    i mean, obviously the reason to say something is because it sucks to be harassed; because fun cool people look out for each other! i'm amazed you make it sound like for you to step out would be like you were a dupe. i think i don't believe you.

    maybe it's more because people like the honorable Joe Smith here will sneer that you must like the color pink (ha, i do!) and accuse you of being friends with Hugo, whatever that means!

    truth is, this is a rational fear: there can be consequences for speaking out against sexism and harassment. the point of the article is: it's worth it in the long run for men to do that!

  114. #114

    @Zammo

    "I have no particular interest in confronting some street thug with a big mouth and no manners on behalf of someone who is uncaring and ingrateful."

    I understand not wanting to physically interfere because of fear for your safety (calling 911 is another option). But to refuse to do so because the person "is uncaring and ingrateful [sic]"? How do you know that before you act? And, most importantly, why is gratitude needed to help someone? Again, I respect the fact that you may not want to involve yourself in a situation that can result in violence (if it hasn't devolved to that already), but using someone's disposition as a litmus test for assistance is a slippery slope.

  115. #115

    @ kristajames

    "And, most importantly, why is gratitude needed to help someone?"

    Re-read your question....

    Then re-read the posts by men like myself....

    THEN...

    Then ask yourself why we aren't in a hurry to stick our necks out for the women-folk.

    I swear...

    Some jokes just write themselves.

    SMMFH

  116. #116

    @ Sue

    "Poor widdle menz can’t approach women they don’t know. "

    It's funny how the only time women want us to approach them is when they need our help.

    Any other time they want us to drop dead.

  117. #117

    @Zammo

    “I have no particular interest in confronting some street thug...”

    There are other ways to combat street harassment other than confronting a stranger. You have influence amongst your peers. Speak out. If you or your friends/family members see it occur, talk about it. If one of your friends/family members responds indifferently (or positively) to harassment (either as the perpetrator,receiver, or bystander), ask him/her why. Start a discussion and make an impact that way.

  118. #118

    "Re-read your question….

    Then re-read the posts by men like myself….

    THEN…

    Then ask yourself why we aren’t in a hurry to stick our necks out for the women-folk."

    His statement makes no sense. People give to charity with no thought as to whether the recipient will be sufficiently grateful. Where is the line drawn? But most importantly, how do you know that the "women-folk" will be ungrateful and uncaring? Would you help a man in a similar situation? Or is it just the ungrateful women? If you don't want to get into a fight, fine. That's why we have 911. But to choose who you help based on your PERCEPTION of her gratitude is absurd and unreliable.

  119. #119

    @ kristastjames

    Absurd and unreliable...

    Maybe....

    But, so is lumping all men in the same category because of the actions of a rotten few. Which - ironically enough - is EXACTLY what feminism teaches.

    Women have made judging the opposite sex based on absurd and unreliable perceptions into an art.

    So, spare me.

  120. #120

    @GrimmNoir

    "Which – ironically enough – is EXACTLY what feminism teaches.

    Women have made judging the opposite sex based on absurd and unreliable perceptions into an art.

    So, spare me."

    Wow, what a beautiful straw man. I never said anything about feminism. I was simply questioning Zammo's reasoning.

  121. #121

    @ Dorothy: I did not mention whether it would or wold not be reasonable or unreasonable to feel uncomfortable by being harassed, so while one's conclusion is certainly entertaining, it is unrelated to my comments. My point is that if there is no danger or no real risk to men if they were to step in, then technically there is no reason why women could not stop the harassment themselves. If there is risk, then one is demanding that men should to intentionally put themselves at risk only so women will no longer be at risk. Neither are very good arguments, but the latter is particularly egregious and dehumanizing.

    @ Ldorado: That you found feminism helpful does not change the experiences of others. I am quite certain that many people find the Catholic Church helpful and wonderful. Yet, many others find it abusive and traumatic. The same applies to feminism and feminists. Rather than dismiss those people's experiences as "disturbing" and "puzzling," it would be better for others to acknowledge those experiences and understand how the ideology and its adherents caused those individuals harm.

    Of course, the irony of your response is that you are objecting to people being wary of feminists and feminism based on their prior negative experiences on a thread about the legitimacy of people being wary of others based on some other person's negative experience.

  122. #122

    When I witness such harassment I am embarrassed for the perpetrator and actually feel some sort of pity or sorrow for them for their lack of education and class. I think so often the protector is a similar beast, degenerating into a primal brawl before the female. Imagine if it were addressed with love, compassion, and education. It is hard to say "brother, you are insulting yourself and her, if there was a compliment intended you have failed" without adding "you dumb ass." The tension between genders is sad. The tension between people in this world is sad. I am totally fried on trying to be politically correct all the time, I won't live tiptoeing on eggshells. With all of my heart I wish people would genuinely have more empathy and compassion.

  123. #123

    sorry for the wall 'o' text...

    @Toysoldier. i'm not dismissing anything. i really do find it disturbing and puzzling. to be honest, it sounds a lot like a right wing radio talking point to me. You say, "it would be better for others to acknowledge those experiences and understand how the ideology and its adherents caused those individuals harm."

    at the risk of being flippant, i will agree that you are right: it would be better for those men who benefit from our confusion about male supremacy if we try to pretend that women being wary of men is the same as men killing women. or that people are damaged by feminism as much as by religion or patriotism.

    "Of course, the irony of your response is that you are objecting to people being wary of feminists and feminism based on their prior negative experiences on a thread about the legitimacy of people being wary of others based on some other person’s negative experience."

    that's interesting. to you the thread is about whether it is legitimate for women to be wary of men?

    "My point is that if there is no danger or no real risk to men if they were to step in, then technically there is no reason why women could not stop the harassment themselves. If there is risk, then one is demanding that men should to intentionally put themselves at risk only so women will no longer be at risk. Neither are very good arguments, but the latter is particularly egregious and dehumanizing."

    this line of reasoning could make sense (logically, if not from a standpoint of compassion) if women are equally able to stop harassment. do you think they always are?

    why is it especially egregious and dehumanizing for men to hear the demand that we put ourselves at risk for a woman who is being attacked? does it sound like they are just using you for your brawn? does it annoy you that they could be asking for equal pay and freedom, but still be vulnerable, still want something from you? does it illuminate an idea we men have that being free means not needing anybody's help, for anything?

    are women really to blame for this problem? how much easier is it for us men to blame the woman (or women in general, or feminism) than to think about how to stop male violence? i'll confess, it is uncomfortable to talk about this stuff with my guy friends. we're dudes. but it is possible, and it gets easier. it also gets easier to speak out about harassment when i see it. i don't go to blows. i'm not a fighter. but i can sure make it a pain in the ass or embarrassing or whatever for some other dude to do his ignorant thing.
    i don't mean to sound like i have answers, more like a kind of desperate willingness to try, because i'm sad at how many friends get harassed, and some are survivors. and i have trouble getting my head around the stats (like the ones switchintoglide quoted above). it's crazy. it's epidemic. let's stop it!

    i am emphatically not dismissing violence against men. i am saying that by thinking about some of these things we can begin to stop all the violence. i'm saying that feminism to me is about tackling these things.

  124. #124

    tl,dr: boys can help.

  125. #125

    Thank you Toysoldier for sufficiently explaining how prejudice is never justified. The thing is realistically most prejudice is reactionary which is exactly how this "reverse" prejudice is defined.

    switchintoglide, can you tell how your model of reverse prejudice differs from a victim meta-narrative? To me it seems very much like you are assigning certain groups to victim status and because of this status these people are not held to the same standards. This status affords certain privileges such as a higher tolerance for racism/sexism and workplace quotas. The is discrimination as compensation, but why? Any young white male today is completely innocent of any passed wrong doing, he is simply not responsible nor should he be held accountable but nevertheless he is. Ancestral guilt is completely irrational yet men and white people are still shamed. And rather than viewing race as more than trivial biological differences we are forced to view race in light of historical events even though all of us are innocent.

    Where bystander intervention is concerned, it is a conflict of the masculine and the feminine perspective, the independent model verses the interdependent model. There is no rigid frame of reference in which to prove that one way of thinking and doing is morally superior. This article assumes as matter of fact that the feminine is superior which is unfounded and pretentious.

    My thoughts on lawful harassment (non violent) have already been explained but ill repeat them. If a women is incapable of fighting her own battles (figuratively) then this is a sign weakness and thus undeserving of respect. This though harsh is how many people think. For me to treat a women as an equal (the same as any man) I would expect her to solve her own problems. An expectation of intervention is privilege and forced intervention is slavery. I identify with the independence model neither is more right and to assume that the feminine has the moral high ground is plain female supremacism.

  126. #126

    Amanda Hess's article and all the females' posts can be easily summed as...

    "Men are obligated to protect and lay down their lives for us, even though we regard all of them as scum."

  127. #127

    @ Dorothy: I did not mention whether it would or wold not be reasonable or unreasonable to feel uncomfortable by being harassed, so while one’s conclusion is certainly entertaining, it is unrelated to my comments.

    As your comment was an answer to my comment, I thought it was somehow related to what I was saying.
    Pardon the misunderstanding.

  128. #128

    Oh, and Ldorado, your tl;dr-post ist totally awesome!

  129. #129

    If women want to lump all men based on the actions of a few harrassers there's not much I can do about it. That is their issue to work out not mine. I dont mean to sound cold but I just live my life as i want to.To my knowledge Ive never harrassed anyone, but I could care less what any group, in this case women, thinks about me.

  130. #130

    "tl,dr: boys can help."

    Boys can indeed help because of their inexperience and naivete.

    Men are more circumspect and wary of female privilege and female scorn as evidenced by this post:

    "Poor widdle menz can’t approach women they don’t know. Somebody call the wambulance."

    I think the women posting here should start a dialog with the girl who posted the quote above so y'all can figure out your exquisitely evolved and quite unpleasant sexism.

    In the meantime, I will be eating yummy bacon and watching the automobile races on the television.

  131. #131

    @GrimmNoir @S @reeves. It's a cop-out to claim that women are prejudiced. Male-bodied people benefit from sexism. Every day. It's the subtle and not-so-subtle ways we "stay in control," even though this way of having society organized is unhealthy for all of us. This idea (that sexism exists) is rejected by many men and women because change is uncomfortable. Heck, it's uncomfortable to acknowledge that we benefit, even if we never harass anyone.

    Many men read discussion of sexism as a personal attack ('women think we're scum'). My experience is that many women are hoping men can hear them, and be willing to take a look at our behavior. This thread is no different.

  132. #132

    god these comments hurt my head.
    some of you dudes think its okay to ignore it when woman get harassed because you think woman want to be treated equally?

    you carry more hate in your heart than logic. don't ever rationalize away your heart.

    maybe i'm sexist, i'm sure i am, but a man helps people that need help.

    equality doesn't mean the equal opportunity to experience fear and trouble, it means the equal opportunity to succeed.

    and yes, open doors for woman, if you get to the door first. literally and figuratively.
    open the doors for men too.

  133. #133

    and yes, some women hate all men. so what? every group has their bigots, but guys, if EVERY woman treats you with distrust or like you are scum, the problem resides in you, not "feminism" or women.

    most people you meet with respect you if treated with respect.

  134. #134

    @love
    You are not a sexist, don't worry! :) You just get it!
    You seem very understanding and I thank you for your comments:
    "equality doesn’t mean the equal opportunity to experience fear and trouble, it means the equal opportunity to succeed."

    That is all we ask. And it would be nice for the hate to stop too.

  135. #135

    And this is also true, because I love men, and only treat them poorly if they have set the precedent as an individual for poor treatment:
    "if EVERY woman treats you with distrust or like you are scum, the problem resides in you, not “feminism” or women."

    love and Ldorado have hit the nail on the head.

    And for those railing against the feminist "ideology," it may shock you to know that there isn't really one, it is simply about fighting oppression to liberate all people-however that manifests itself. There is not monolithic definition of feminism--it's not a church! Making feminists and women out to be some cohesive group just shows how little you know about feminism and its history.

    And I rally don't like the use of "victim," the word is "survivor." And it is not the mistakes of white male's "ancestors," it is the mistakes that white males are accidentally making today because of a lack of knowledge about how their actions effect other groups that are still subjugated. Other groups reproduce these mistakes too, but we can't historically situate these things that are going on today. Read the article on Rape Culture if you don't understand that.

  136. #136

    love.

    I don't ignore harassment because they want to be treated equally, I ignore it because I want to treat them equally. We are equals and as such I will treat everyone equally. What women want is irrelevant.

    "but a man helps people that need help."

    Any particular reason why you used man instead of human? Are women exempt from being expected to help people that need help? Also the attempt at shaming fails.

    Equality means nothing on its own. Can you even see the logical conflict associated with equal outcome and equal opportunity? If not then I suggest you take a while to reflect.

    Many of you are failing to see that all your arguments assume the absolute correctness of a interdependence model of social interaction.

    -----------

    Ldorado.

    I proved this prejudice, this prejudice is confirmed by the study, this prejudice has to exist for the articles main argument to have any validity. The article was blaming mens behavior which was in fact the actions of a few men (more prejudice) for womens prejudice.

    This was confirmed by switchintoglide but somehow she considered this prejudice to be justified based on a assumed victim narrative.

    "My experience is that many women are hoping men can hear them, and be willing to take a look at our behavior."

    There is no "our", I am a individual you are a individual do not try to make me accountable for the actions of other men.

    Any womens fears and insecurities are not my problem, they are their own responsibility to deal with, their own weaknesses to overcome.

  137. #137

    Amanda Hess’s article and all the females’ posts can be easily summed as…

    “Men are obligated to protect and lay down their lives for us, even though we regard all of them as scum.

    LMAO.

    Checkmate!

  138. #138

    This is quite a surreal exchange.

    But one thing seems to be quite clear: If the women posters' intent is to convince men overall to change their behavior, or even persuade the male posters on this thread... they are failing miserably.

    Full stop.

  139. #139

    @S i'm not assuming absolute correctness, just hoping to be understood! :) But you are right, i live in a world of mutual interdependence: i think that's just being honest.
    “but a man helps people that need help.” 'Also the attempt at shaming fails.'
    i read what love wrote as a statement of their values. it sux you read it as an attempt to shame you.

    For men who are looking for reasons to be brutal or uncaring, you will always be able to find them.
    But fortunately for the health of our communities, for a growing number of people who identify as men, that proud individualism, that defensiveness and isolation, looks weak, not strong. For a growing number of men, being a man means accepting the reality that we continue to reap the material and psychological rewards of a history of systematic exploitation, abuse and killing of female-bodied people. For a growing number of men, being a man means rejecting the easy blaming of women for the steps they take to protect themselves from exploitation and violence.

    Many men will continue to choose their righteous indignation at being lumped together with men more brutal than themselves. That allows them to ignore the ways we are similar, and to deflect attention to a more comfortable area. This is to be expected, since it requires some courage and love to be honest about privilege for nothing more than a sense of "i'm doing the right thing." (Although, embarrassingly, the ignorance of men where i am is so pervasive that any man who even acknowledges sexism is showered with gratitude :/)

  140. #140

    The effect of prejudging an entire gender for the malefactions of a few is well illustrated in the rape milieu. The credibility of rape victims suffers immensely when women lie about rape. This suffering is exacerbated when the persons who control the public discourse about rape put their heads in the sand and pretend false claims are a myth.

    In case after case after case, judges and law enforcement officers bemoan the effect that false rape claims have on actual rape victims. My website, False Rape Society, receives some of its most supportive communications from rape victims because their greatest enemy is the false accuser.

    It is astounding, and dishonest in the extreme, that some rape "advocates" continue to insist that false rape claims are a myth. They even trot out the long-discredited two percent canard. The fact is, every impartial, objective study shows false rape claims are a significant problem. As reported in "False Rape Allegations" by Eugene Kanin, Archives of Sexual Behavior Feb 1994 v23 n1 p81(12), Professor Kanin’s landmark study of a mid-size Midwestern city over the course of nine years found that 41 percent of all rape claims were false. Kanin also studied the police records of two unnamed large state universities (without polygaphs, for you Kanin detractors) and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false.”

    See also, E. Greer, The Truth Behind Legal Dominance Feminism's 'Two Percent False Rape Claim' Figure, 33 Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review 947, a scholarly law review article that traced the two percent false rape canard to its unreliable source. Yet both the misguided and the fraudulent still cite that two percent stat.

    In addition, a landmark Air Force study in 1985 studied 556 rape allegations. It found that 27% of the accusers recanted, and an independent evaluation revealed a false accusation rate of 60%. McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. “False Allegations.” Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.

    See also, "Until Proven Innocent," the widely praised (praised even by the New York Times, which the book skewers -- as well as almost every other major U.S. news source) and painstaking study of the Duke Lacrosse non-rape case. Authors Stuart Taylor and Professor K.C. Johnson explain that the exact number of false claims is elusive but "[t]he standard assertion by feminists that only 2 percent" or sexual assault claims "are false, which traces to Susan Brownmiller's 1975 book 'Against Our Will,' is without empirical foundation and belied by a wealth of empirical data. These data suggest that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half" of all sexual assault claims "are false . . . ." (Page 374.)

    In short, every objective study ever conducted on the prevalence of false rape claims reveals that they are a significant problem. By any measure, denigrating the experience of the wrongly accused by dismissing their victimization as a myth or as unworthy of our discussion, much less our protection, is not merely dishonest but morally grotesque.

    And let us be blunt: this lie -- that false rape claims are a myth -- does a terrible, terrible disservice to rape victims. It is obvious to everyone that false claims are not a myth, and to insist that they are for no reason other than to feed some twisted "only-women-can-be-victims-of-anything" fetish is hurting actual rape victims.

  141. #141

    @ Ldorado:

    By calling it the possibility that feminists can harm people "disturbing" and "puzzling" you are dismissing the experiences of those who have been harmed. The issue is why. I would argue that your position is purely ideological in nature.

    It is, as you mentioned, reminiscent of right-wing talk radio. One's position is essentially that because one finds a particular perspective "correct," any criticism of it or anything that does not mesh with it is invalid. That is a most unhelpful position to take, as is the fairly unsympathetic position that boys and men object to female-perpetrated sexual violence and negative feminist treatment solely to maintain their "male supremacy."

    No one is always capable of stopping harassment, so the question is a red herring. The issue is whether men should be obligated to put themselves at serious risk only so women do not have to. It would be different an actual reason were given for why men (and only men) should put themselves at physical risk for women (and only women) over a verbal remark. Unfortunately, other than attacking men's masculinity and playing on chivalry and machismo no one presented a single reason why men should be obligated to intervene on women's behalf.

    As for feminism "tackling" all the violence, it is difficult to tackle an issue if one proposes the issue does not exist and regards any mention of it as "disturbing" and "puzzling."

  142. #142

    love wrote: every group has their bigots, but guys, if EVERY woman treats you with distrust or like you are scum, the problem resides in you, not “feminism” or women.

    You do realize this works in the reverse, yes? You realize that someone could argue that if every man treats women with distrust or like they are scum, the problem resides in women, not "patriarchy," "male supremacy" or men?

    It is an odd thing to think, but perhaps I am fortunate that this kind of rhetoric was beaten into me as a toddler and a child. While such physical and sexual violence at the hands of a feminist may have been unfortunate (to the extent that it inconvenienced her), the benefit is that it shut down any emotional impulses that might otherwise lead a normal, well-adjusted male to react with more than indifference at the feminist view of his value.

  143. #143

    You ladies still don't get it, don't you?

    Men are getting tired of sticking their necks out for a gender that actively holds them all in contempt.

    Once again...

    YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

    You can't deficate(sp?) on an entire gender 90% of the time and expect that gender to come to your beckon call the other 10% of the time.

    It doesn't work like that. And a lot of you need to grow the hell up and realize that.

    Sorry ladies, but....

    Cap'n Save-A-Hoe is dead. And his sidekick Help-A-Bitch is in the welfare line.

  144. #144

    @Ldorado

    (throws a wadded dollar bill at Ldorado)

    Now....

    Go down to the dollar store and buy yourself a pair of nuts.

  145. #145

    @GrimmNoir
    You just contributed to the culture that denies that men can be raped:

    "Go down to the dollar store and buy yourself a pair of nuts."

    Congratulations on perpetuating the marginalisation of male rape victims.

  146. #146

    @ switchingtoglide

    LOL...

    WOW...

    You, madame, are a raging idiot.

    What I said had nothing to with him being raped....

    And it definitely did not imply that men don't get raped.

    You're really reaching with that one and I think you know it.

  147. #147

    @switchintoglide. I'm wondering when the banality of evil takes on the tenacity of ridiculousness. ;) I imagine that the level of hatred i find in threads like this one has long existed, and that by choosing mostly not to engage with it, i've been missing an opportunity to learn, (and acting on my privilege to not deal with sexism when i don't want to).

    Part of my motivation in engaging on this thread is that in the past, below an article i enjoyed, i have ended by feeling very isolated and hopeless after reading hateful comment after hateful comment. So i wanted to leave some kind of indication that the world (or this thread) is not only populated by angry, defensive men.

    But between the straight up blind arrogant hatred for women (GrimmNoir) and the wounded byzantine illogic and self-centeredness of the commentary here, i'm stumped. Is there even a dialogue going on? Maybe it doesn't matter.

  148. #148

    i dont mean this to sound cold but why doesnt everyone just become gay? It sounds like men and women universally hate each other anyway. It would be so much simpler at least...

  149. #149

    Pierce et al in regards to false rape claims:

    Indeed it is a problem that people are falsely accused of rape. Most often when I see the issue brought up, however, it is done as an attempt to derail a conversation about rape that really does occur. Even if this is not the intention, it is often the outcome. If people seem dismissive of the idea, I think it usually comes from the fact that every. single. time. we try to engage in a constructive conversation about rape or harassment as it affects women, some men have to chime in and shout "but men get raped too!" and "but some rape accusations are false!"

    These statements are true, and deserve attention, but IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I wholeheartedly encourage people to contribute to blogs, or start their own, that address these issues. I will support those efforts. But please allow those of us who would like to engage in thoughtful, constructive conversation about a specific topic to do so. This last plea is not aimed at you, pierce, as much as it is to the constant derailers present.

    In general, if you have a concern that is tangentally related to the topic of a blog post, and you think it deserves consideration, there is a polite, adult way to note your thought and perhaps direct people to another site with more information. Valid concerns like "but men get raped too" and "some rape accusations are false" are often met with animosity because the people speaking about them often do so in a way that suggests that because men also experience a problem, the experience women have with it is less valid or less important. if you wish to talk about false claims of rape, or men being victims of harassment, or the pitfalls of feminism, may I suggest there are other places where your comments would be more welcome and met with more consideration?

    The question of when and how men should intervene is a relevant one, however. Of course there are times when a man would be putting his personal safety at risk, and I think that decision needs to be up to each and every person making it. I wouldn't think less of someone who is afraid to intervene for this reason, but I know that if a could have stopped someone else's abuse and I chose not to, I would feel horrible about it.

    We're overlooking, however, the many instances when a person would not be risking their personal safety by stepping in. Many of the men who have harassed me were not that physically intimidating in terms of stature; my fear comes from knowing that if they disrespect me enough to say something that horrible, I don't know what else they are capable of. They have not been so physically threatening that, with the help of a bystander, I would not be able to escape or ward them away. Another fear is that if it came to a physical struggle between us, bystanders would not help me.

    Many men who cat call and harass are not huge, tough guys, and a simple verbal rebuke will deter them. It would make me feel a lot better doing this if I thought someone nearby had my back.

  150. #150

    And Ldorado, thank you for contributing. It always warms my heart to hear from male-bodied folks who do understand. Like many people have said on here, I am lucky to have a number of compassionate, self-reflective feminist men in my life. The "war between the sexes" is a myth. The war against patriarchy is very real, and even though it may seem to some that there is hatred on both sides, those who wish to defeat it generally come from a place of love and compassion for all. I have to work to be compassionate toward people who seem hell-bent on upholding misogyny and homophobia, but in the end, I know they do so because it is a common reaction to feeling one's privilege being threatened. I have felt the same way in areas of my life where I have privilege, and I work every day to overcome it. But I know that, like standing up for someone even if it means putting myself at risk, in the end my community will be better for it. I know that some men who have read the original post walked away thinking "wow, that's f-ed up. No wonder women seem wary when I approach them sometimes. I don't want this to continue. I'm going to find ways to change it."

  151. #151

    Ldorado: Thank you. Your choice to engage when you could turn away does make a difference.

  152. #152

    Thanks Ldorado, you are a great ally.

  153. #153

    Are you "ladies" and eunuchs (Ldorado) done with the circle jerk now?

  154. #154

    Thanks, all, for giving me another place to link to when people ask "why do we still need feminism?"

  155. #155

    @GrimmNoir #146 Read some of the comments above and see why men don't report rape: it's because people like you somehow feel the need to police the masculinity of others--How is that your business as all? And it is very telling of the low regard in which you hold femininity that you would invoke it to insult a man.

    #153:
    "Are you “ladies” and eunuchs (Ldorado) done with the circle jerk now?"

    Good point, group sex is fun, and GrimmNoir, you're not invited.

  156. #156

    Is there even a dialogue going on?

    No, there is not. However, there never was to begin with as that was not the intention of the post. The intention was to present an idea a specific group of people -- in this instance feminists -- would agree with it and offer comments as to why they agreed.

    A dialogue implies that both sides will attempt to see the other's perspective or at least discuss the merits of their own positions. Yet that was not going to happen since both sides take very oppositional stances, with many on both sides presuming the other side is hateful, sexist, evil, angry, defensive, illogical, self-centered, etc.

    Such interactions are enlightening as they demonstrate how ideology and personal bias impacts the way people address those they disagree with and how or whether they will listen to the other group's perspective.

  157. #157

    If people seem dismissive of the idea, I think it usually comes from the fact that every. single. time. we try to engage in a constructive conversation about rape or harassment as it affects women, some men have to chime in and shout “but men get raped too!” and “but some rape accusations are false!”

    It is doubtful that this occurs every single time, however, one should understand why people may be motivated to introduce that males are victims of sexual violence. It most often follows a direct statement or an implication suggesting that males cannot be victims or that any sexual or physical violence committed against them, especially by women, is harmless and negligible. That narrative is unfortunately very common among feminists, and it is has resulted in a real-world negative impact on how male victims are treated and regarded, particularly in the support community. So those who mention male victimization likely do so from a perspective akin to someone mentioning racial discrimination against asians, hispansics or middle easterners.

    They are specifically objecting to the feminist framing of social problems as only affecting females or being inherently worse for females, which is reasonable given their concern for the issue. It is also common for feminists to do the same thing in regards to issues which concern them, so one's objection is tenuous.

    Many of the men who have harassed me were not that physically intimidating in terms of stature; my fear comes from knowing that if they disrespect me enough to say something that horrible, I don’t know what else they are capable of. They have not been so physically threatening that, with the help of a bystander, I would not be able to escape or ward them away. Another fear is that if it came to a physical struggle between us, bystanders would not help me.

    The latter statement contradicts the first. If you are not physically intimidated, then there is no reason to assume a physical struggle will occur or worry about what the person is capable of. Your comment implies that you are intimidated and you would prefer someone else to take the risk of physical assault for you, or more correctly, you would prefer a male to take the risk. Your desire for backup is normal, however, one fails to see it from the other side's perspective. A verbal retort to a lewd comment from a woman would likely slide. A man's verbal retort or physical intervention most likely would not. The chance of a man getting into a fist fight is much higher. The fear is that a man could end up in the hospital, or worse, over what amounts to a throw-away insult. Another fear is that should it escalate to violence, no one would step in to help him, especially not the person he is protecting.

    In terms of stakes, the most you risk is your feelings being wounded for a couple of hours. The most I risk is being physically injured.

    One might find that improbable, but if that is the case, then technically one has no valid reason not to act in one's own defense. Likewise, if in most instances a verbal retort is enough to harassment, the real need is to address the insecurities women have that may prevent them from standing up for themselves, not to demand that boys and men get into fights to protect women's feelings.

  158. #158

    @ switchintoglide:

    Considering my involvement with male survivors for the last 9 years, I can say that nothing GrimmNoir wrote strikes me as anything that specifically compels boys and men not to report rape. If GrimmNoir made the comment in regards to a male victim mentioning his abuse, then it would coincide with how male victims are treated. However, the statement was made specifically in regards to Ldorado's post about men whining about having their "privilege" checked. One could argue that it was an attack on Ldorado's masculinity, but it clearly was not an attack on male victims and cannot even be construed even by grade-A distorters like Glen Beck or Karl Rove.

    One may object to GrimmNoir's comments for a host of reasons, but please do so without using abused boys and men to win the argument.

  159. #159

    A Google search reveals these gems of wisdom from GrimmNoir. Ignore him. Don't feed the troll.

    "I've paid my dues giving feminist-infected ankles - and their simp and mangina familiars - the cyberspace smackdown with my Logical Pimp Hand....

    (BlackMenVent, Topix, YouTube, BlackPlanet, MABTW, and so on)

    I just fuck with them for entertainment's sake nowadays, like Reaper."

    "The only two interests women really have are 1)themselves and 2)issues that involve women.

    And those two things get boring real quick - even for women."

    "I mean, with all this primitive-minded, anti-"short man" propaganda that these females are indoctrinating themselves with, it should be hard for someone like me. Right? But, it's not.

    Why?

    Because as someone else just mentioned, there is no thought or logic to what women want, say, or do.

    Therefore, making it easy for me not to take their opinions of me or men in general very seriously."

  160. #160

    @ Sarah

    And I bet you were fiercely rubbing that small, pink, fleshy globe between your legs while you were reading my "gems of wisdom", weren't you?

    :D

  161. #161

    To be honest, GrimmNoir, I was fiercely rubbing turds all over my face. Somehow, it was a pleasant alternative to reading your gems of wisdom.

  162. #162

    "Your desire for backup is normal, however, one fails to see it from the other side’s perspective. A verbal retort to a lewd comment from a woman would likely slide. A man’s verbal retort or physical intervention most likely would not. The chance of a man getting into a fist fight is much higher. The fear is that a man could end up in the hospital, or worse, over what amounts to a throw-away insult. Another fear is that should it escalate to violence, no one would step in to help him, especially not the person he is protecting."

    Every woman needs to read this and understand it thoroughly.

  163. #163

    "Many of the men who have harassed me were not that physically intimidating in terms of stature; my fear comes from knowing that if they disrespect me enough to say something that horrible, I don’t know what else they are capable of. "

    Maybe you're not seeing that you women are the embodiment of this very problem, for men.

    You lie, you cheat, you accuse us of all sorts of nonsense, and you blame it on us. For any reason that's convenient for you.

    Because you enjoy it. Because it gives you a thrill to put men down. And because you enjoy harassing and intimidating men through the police, through the courts, through the legal system.

    You have all these emotional responses to men based on what your imaginations are afraid that they might do (half of which you secretly, subconsciously want them to do) yet somehow you think that men shouldn't be afraid of women who admittedly lie to get men to do what they want, for the same reason.

    And you know what? No matter what you do, short of killing them or getting them put in jail for life (like on a false charge of rape or attempted murder or the like), no matter how you either consciously try to appease them or abuse the system or both, men will always be a threat to you because of what they COULD do, right? Plus your little whiny lying deceitful bullshit on top of that basic fact? Hell you could marry them, have kids with them and spend the rest of your lives with them and they could still kill you in your sleep, right?

    So your argument fails, logically.
    It fails, practically. Sure 99 times out of 100 you accomplish your goals vis a vis men. But that 100th time is a bitch ain't it?

    You are left to wallow in your existence with a simple choice. Either deal with men in spite of the threat that they pose to you, the infinite range of possible ways that they can harm you, or don't deal with them at all. Move to some island in the Pacific and hope that no man washes-up ashore there. Look around you today. You are surrounded by men who could follow you home, corner you in a back alley or a back room and rape you, kill you and rob your dead body of all belongings, look up your home address in your wallet and then go home and rape and kill each of your family-members.

    Whether they talk to you or not.
    Whether they look at you or not.
    Whether they are "disrespectful" to your face or not.

    Anything is possible.

    So stop trying to bullshit your way through life and just deal. As the man said, you need thicker skin.

  164. #164

    ...if it helps, just think of what it means to have sex with a man who you don't trust to not have AIDS or an STD and force him to wear a condom for your own protection.

    If you didn't take that precaution the guy might kill you with his penis and sperm, that's your "logic", right? Yet there you are wanting to have sex with him anyway in spite of that possibility. So you manipulate him into a position that is supposedly advantageous and safe to you, by exploiting his desire to have sex, which apparently is greater than his self-respect, and certainly greater than *your* desire to have sex with him (or else your threats would be ineffective and possibly counterproductive).

    But you rationalize it all because your health, your very life is at risk, right?

    But you don't see that it's that very rationalization that PLACES your life at risk. And you're relying on it all to work out just like you plan. Every time. Time and time again. Knowing that it could fail at any point along the way, any time you try it. With disastrous consequences. Yet for you this nonsense is better than just taking the situation head-on and dealing with it.

    Maybe it's because you women have so little practice doing that and really hardly any idea of how to do it in the first place? And you don't see how that forces you to deal with even *more* risk as you go through life? You think that men don't have memories?

    If you can rationalize screwing-over guys in your own self-interest, then why can't guys do that too? Not to mention give you a little payback and then tell you that you deserve it, which even you would have to admit is true from time to time? And what does this do but perpetuate the cycle? It all becomes a matter of who can screw-over whom and get away with it.

    If you want guys to respect you as women, then you have to respect them as men DESPITE THE RISK THAT THEY POSE TO YOU AS MEN. Once you take an adversarial position with a man then you are his adversary as well. You take it to the level of "personal combat"? Don't complain when you lose.

  165. #165

    "Once you take an adversarial position with a man, then you become his adversary, as well."

    More wise words for women to read and understand thoroughly.

  166. stillnotgetting it
    #166

    "Really that’s the point- if harassment hurts men because it makes women wary of men, then it is in men’s best interest to step up and say something when they see it happening, even if feeling bad for the woman doesn’t make them act."

    You are only considering the issue from your point of view. There may be reasons that it would be in their best interest to not get involved at all. And to even say that it would be in their best interests to get involved assumes that women are somehow right to make other men suffer as a result of harassment from one man.

    You're not getting it. Just because one guy acts like a dick to you, or even ten guys, that doesn't justify your treating men like shit in response.

    The threat that men may or may not pose to you does not justify your treating them badly.
    You cannot justify acting like a bitch to men by assuming that men will be assholes to you, even if some men *have* been assholes to you in the past. Now, I mean this would be obvious if we were to switch the genders here.

    Besides what is in a mans' "best interest" in a situation, that is based on a lot more than one woman being harassed by a guy.

    Seriously, you women spend a lot of time and energy spinning-up elegant-sounding arguments for why things should be the way that you think they ought to be. They all fail for one simple reason. They're illogical.

    Issues of practicality and self-interest aside.

    Just because something sounds good to you and makes you happy? That doesn't make it right. That's a lesson that men have to learn to get through life successfully. You women need to learn it too. Certainly you need to stop thinking that something is right just because it sounds good to you, it makes you happy, and to top it off, another girl said it. Has it ever occurred to you that this "groupthink" is just reinforcing bad traits among women? Really that's pretty clear to me.

  167. #167

    Are there really this many misogynists or is it just one typing under ten different nicknames?

  168. stillnotgetting it
    #168

    I'd like to leave this site with one last thought. There is a principle that I like to practice in life which I will call "holding the high ground".

    It means that regardless of everything else, I will do the right thing, the smart thing, the logical thing, the ethical thing. I won't let what someone else has done or said lead me to do something that is wrong, stupid, illogical or unethical. By refusing to do that I don't place myself in a weak position, and I don't empower my enemies.

    If for no other reason.

    Then I have strength through superior position and I can focus on tactics.

    Why don't you all think about that and stop thinking about how much damage men are likely to do to you if you think that they are not acting like they respect you and then using your fear as a weapon against them. Yes, they might harm you. But they are a lot more likely to harm you if you lie to them or you pose a direct threat to them. And lying to them and threatening them won't make you safe.

    Neither will acting like a bunch of crazy ninnies out of fear.

  169. #169

    "Are there really this many misogynists or is it just one typing under ten different nicknames?"

    Before you so glibly toss out the word "misogynist", consider how you, yourself have treated men over the years. Consider how your female peers have treated men over the years.

    Now consider the impact that two generations of "men are bad, women are good" has had on men.

    Misandry stops when women are honest with themselves. Oh, and the new definition of misogyny is "any man who disagrees with a woman".

  170. #170

    @ Dorothy

    Way to address Howaboutthat and Stillnotgettingit's arguments.....

    *sarcastic thumbs up*

  171. #171

    Not only that....

    You just reinforced the definition of "MISOGYNIST" that I posted earlier.

    *golf clap*

    Way to go.

  172. #172

    @ Zammo

    "Oh, and the new definition of misogyny is 'any man who disagrees with a woman'."

    Yep...

    Pretty much.

  173. #173

    What point is there to address an "argument" - and I use this term loosely - that goes like this:

    <You lie, you cheat, you accuse us of all sorts of nonsense, and you blame it on us. For any reason that’s convenient for you.

    Because you enjoy it. Because it gives you a thrill to put men down

    As for "reinforcing the definition of misogynist: You seriously don't think the above quote misogynistic? Please, at least own up to your opinion!

  174. #174

    "You lie, you cheat, you accuse us of all sorts of nonsense, and you blame it on us. For any reason that’s convenient for you.

    "Because you enjoy it. Because it gives you a thrill to put men down."

    It is his opinion based on his observations and exeriences. While your interpretation of his statement might be that he is a misogynist, your interpretation does nothing to address the underlying premise of the statement.

    Simply calling him a misogynist won't make his opinion disappear.

  175. #175

    Dorothy, yes, there are that many. I don't know that some of those on here aren't repeats, but sad to say, there are men who cannot see past their own insecurities to even for a second entertain the thought that a woman might know more than they do about a given topic. There are women who feel this way about men, but because of the difference in the power dynamic established in larger society, they don't usually see the need to pound their chests and declare their hatred for men. I saw one person on here post something truly hateful toward men, and more than I'd like to count that are hateful of women as a group.

    The responses to my last comment are a good example. They have to try to pick apart and invalidate my words to find fault with MY experiences, to tell me how I should feel and react in a situation they have not experienced. To do otherwise, to acknowledge that women are capable, intelligent, real human beings worthy of love and respect (just like men are, and people of other genders), is a threat to their egos.

    This must be such a sad, lonely way to go through life. I have a hard time imagining the pain one must feel from closing off such a large segment of humanity. Guys, it's not worth it. Open your minds and hearts.

  176. #176

    A note about logic and rationality:

    I haven't seen anyone on here make the argument that because women are harassed by men, they SHOULD react negatively to men who approach them, or think badly of men as a group. Humans react to situations based on a combination of logical/rational thought and emotion/instinct. If a human feels hir safety has been threatened, especially if if happens over and over (you can argue all you want that one shouldn't feel threatened or you don't believe we feel threatened blah blah but we do, we've expressed that), a natural, instinctual reaction is to "move away" from the source of that danger. (But not to "treat all men badly," the baseless exaggeration made by some on here). Likewise, if someone has had bad experiences with feminists, or with women generally, it makes sense from an instinctual standpoint that they would feel negatively about women as a group. I had many bad experiences with Christians growing up, and as a result I felt negatively about Christianity and Christians generally for a while.

    Logically, these reactions don't make sense. We know, rationally, that our experience with one person, or ten, is not indicative of the whole group. So, yes, everyone should work to examine their prejudices and not treat a whole group badly because of the actions of a few. This step takes self-reflection and the ability to admit that you might be wrong about your assumptions. As I matured, I met Christians who are wonderful people and who do not judge me for not being Christian. This helped to erode my prejudices and helped me to make the rational choice not to judge all Christians based on my negative experiences with those I grew up with. But, my mind and heart had to be open to them in order to take this step. Had I remained stubborn and defensive about my own superiority, I would have missed out on many rewarding friendships and a lot of personal growth by now.

    This is not to say that we should blame the whole problem of women feeling negatively about men-as-a-group on those women and leave them the sole responsibility of solving it. Men are the perpetrators in this instance (though not in all instances of harassment, blah blah blah), and often the bystanders who do nothing, so they have a large share of the responsibility in fixing it. In the meantime, I will continue to be wary of strange men who approach me, because my experience has taught me that they are about as likely to threaten my safety as to be kind. Being trusting and sweet to every strange man will not prevent men from harassing me. Being cautious just might save my life. I understand that if I am a little short with a man who did not have bad intentions he might think worse of women-as-a-group because of it, but I have to hope that he can be mature and think outside of himself long enough to understand where I am coming from and why I might react to his advances that way. I know men who do understand this and who are cautious in their interactions with women they don't know for this reason.

    I don't have any hopes of changing your minds at this point. Rather, I present this for any open-minded or like-minded people in order that future conversations may be more mature and informed.

  177. #177

    @Adrienne: That was great.

    I just want to add that there are in fact small things a nice man can do to make a woman feel safer: Give her space, don't pressure her, don't be intrusive.
    For example, my boyfriend is a fairly tall guy (6,4), and he's aware of that. He always gives people space, never crowds anyone, and when we argue he sits down, so that I don't feel like the "small" party.

  178. #178

    @Toysoldier-

    Re: "one should understand why people may be motivated to introduce that males are victims of sexual violence. It most often follows a direct statement or an implication suggesting that males cannot be victims or that any sexual or physical violence committed against them, especially by women, is harmless and negligible."

    I understand your frustration with this because I have witnessed it myself, though we probably disagree on how prevalent it is. I think this post: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/ does a really good job (better than I can in a short space) of explaining the whole issue from a feminist point of view. I am truly sorry that there are people out there who claim that men can't be raped or otherwise undermine efforts to address this very serious issue. I know that there are people who identify as feminists who are guilty of this, but I also know that people who are already anti-feminist often do not take the time to really listen to what we're saying in regards to these issues. If you read something that does explicitly claim that "males cannot be victims or that any sexual or physical violence committed against them, especially by women, is harmless and negligible," please, by all means, speak up about it. But if what you read seems to imply that without directly stating it, I hope you would ask for clarification before making assumptions about their intentions. This is something I myself am working on all the time.

    Re: the second part of your last post- I'm not going to address your attempts to undermine/dismiss my lived experience. If you're more interested in dissecting and finding fault with my statements about my life and fears than you are with learning about them, that tells me there's really no point in explaining it further.

  179. #179

    Dorothy, I dont think the misogny here can compare to the misandry. Does it make it right ? No it doesn't. Yes, theres some misogynists among us here, but to be fair, a majority of the reports here portray men as either violent or idiots and we are sick of it. The feminist double standard needs to be addressed. Misandry is tolerated, even celebrated but misogyny is denounced ?

  180. #180

    Adrienne, I am well aware of FinallyFeminismi01 and I have no interest in victim-blaming or the diminishing of violence against boys and men, nor do I have any interest your attempt to undermine and dismiss my experiences or your attempt to dissect and find fault with my statements about my life.

    That said, as I stated before, such interactions are enlightening as they demonstrate how ideology and personal bias impacts the way people address those they disagree with and how -- or whether -- they will listen to the other group’s perspective. It is particularly interesting in light of your response to people telling you "how [to] feel and react in a situation they have not experienced." Setting aside one's assumption about other people's experiences, it is interesting that you objected to such comments when you and other feminists who commented here took no issue with telling men how they should feel and react to the topic at hand or the people discussion in that topic.

    Such contradictions erode the foundations of trust and ensure that any attempt to build trust later will falter.

    As for the logic of people's reactions to a threat, people's defensiveness is what allowed the human species to propagate. It was to our ancestors' benefit to assume all large cats would maul them after witnessing that once because those who assumed otherwise would end up dead. That humans apply this to other humans is no real surprise. It is logical and rational to distrust those who are similar to anyone who caused one harm as "being cautious just might save [one's] life" and because "[a person's] experience has taught [them] that [other people] are about as likely to threaten [their] safety as to be kind." It only appears illogical when it is applied to a group one trusts or a group one belongs to. The same is true regarding people being "mature and think outside of [themselves] long enough to understand where [one is] coming from and why [one] might react to [their] advances that way." This applies only to groups one distrusts or does not belong to, never to oneself.

    What this sort of view fails to realize, beyond the obvious contradiction, is that very few people approach situations without prior experiences. It is unlikely that the majority of the women from the survey who identified with the woman from the video did not experience some prior harassment. That is likely what prompted them to identify with the woman in the video. The same applies to the reaction of some of the men on this thread and men in general. It is unlikely that those men approach women without past experiences of negative treatment, harassment, abuse, etc. So how one responds to them is just as likely to reinforce the distrust they already -- and legitimately -- harbor.

    This is impossible to avoid doing this, but it is possible to lessen the effect. What has occurred on this thread does not, and that is largely because many people on both sides simply vented their anger rather than trying to understand each other. It is much easier to write "Yeah, men don't get it" than it is to question the veracity of obligating all males risk their physical safety to protect women's feelings.

  181. #181

    @Adrienne

    "This must be such a sad, lonely way to go through life. I have a hard time imagining the pain one must feel from closing off such a large segment of humanity. Guys, it’s not worth it. Open your minds and hearts."

    PROJECTION: The Weapon X of Feminist Shaming Tactics

  182. #182

    Honestly a lot of that post didn't make sense to me. Typos, I guess.

    I guess you're right that I haven't experienced being a misogynist or having male privilege. I know these terms make some of you touchy, but that shows me you don't understand the concepts and have not done the necessary work on yourselves to know what I'm talking about. You can accuse me of the same thing; I guess each of us will have to be content with ourselves and our willingness to listen to other perspectives. The thing is, (uh oh i'm about to generalize about a group) because men are dominant as a group, I hear the male perspective all the time. It is the nature of privilege that your experience gets talked about more than others'. There are exceptions (the perspective of men who have survived sexual assault, for one) but generally speaking, we hear women's perspectives less than men's. That's why, if you want to be a contributing member of society and work towards fixing a lot of the problems in society, you have to be willing to acknowledge your own privilege and take special care to listen to and take to heart the perspectives of people whose voices aren't heard as often. I know not all men share the same perspective. I am thrilled to hear from men who hold different views, have different opinions, have different ideas about the future than the same old misogynist perspective. But please excuse me if I get tired of hearing the same bs from men over and over. If those men are tired of hearing our bs, they don't have to read a blog about women, gender, feminism, etc.

  183. #183

    Adrienne, when the talk coming from these forums is frequently misandrist by the forum organizer, I feel compelled to respond to respond. Post after post is about men who rape and the negative qualities of men. I have to wonder if the author believes that all men are potential rapists based on the inordinate volume of posts equating men to rape. The posts that portray men as decent human beings are few and far between. However when men harp on negative qualities in women it becomes misogynist ? Doesnt anyone else see the double standard ?

  184. #184

    Alas, maybe this is what the men's movement has wrought: false equivalence, part of the backlash against women's organizing work over the last few decades.

    Men are using familiar terminology (drawn from the women's movement against domestic violence it seems) to propose that men suffer harassment and assault at the hands of women to an equivalent degree that women survive male violence. The fact that statistical evidence shows this to be ridiculous is irrelevant, since men use heuristic fallacy (i.e. their own lived experience of pain where women could be held responsible) and their access to power and media as a means to flat-out reject the idea of male supremacy.

  185. #185

    "The posts that portray men as decent human beings are few and far between."

    Perhaps because the title of the blog is The Sexist . . .? Which implies that the blog discusses instances of sexism, not happy, feel-good anecdotes of men being alright chaps? All you have to do when you read a post about the problem of rape, for instance, is say, "I'm a man, but I think rape is wrong and I don't condone it." But writing blogs about rape does not automatically make Amanda a man-hater.

    "However when men harp on negative qualities in women it becomes misogynist ?"

    It becomes misogynistic when you lump all women together beneath the category "women" and try to assign fixed qualities to that category, a la "Women are ______" or "Women do ______." It's the equivalent of saying "Black people are ______" or "Black people do ______." As if your statement is an indisputable fact. Women have vastly different ages, races, economic backgrounds, educations, political leanings, cultural backgrounds, and--yes--varying degrees of identifying with feminism. A negative quality you perceive in a dozen women doesn't mean that, y'know, the other billion-some women on this planet also share that quality. Because a one woman has uttered a sexist remark to you doesn't mean that the next twenty you meet also secretly harbor the same opinion. Because you've had two relationships with so-called gold-diggers doesn't mean that all women are just out to get your money.

    I don't think any of the women in this discussion have expressed the opinion that all men are bad and that all men are potential rapists. Women here are discussing harassers, not ALL MEN, which is a point I feel that you are failing to recognize. I haven't ever been cat-called in a threatening manner, so I can't fault the women in the study (who are distinct from the women in the comments section, mind you) for being a little more leery of men. Hell, I was feeling pretty good about men before I read the opinions of most of the male commentators here. Now I'm feeling disillusioned and more than a little disappointed in men! Which is of course not fair to all the non-misogynists out there.

    For the record, of my twentiest closest friends, only five are female. I'm also in a long-term relationship with a man. And all of my male and female friends are in agreement: men and women should be treated equally. This simple opinion allows us all to get along fabulously.

  186. #186

    Ahh...

    I see we're finally done with Fecal Facial, eh?

  187. #187

    if a man was to constantly write negative, stereotypical things about women dont you feel there would be a feminist uproar? Why is that when a woman is at the helm we have to treat her with kid gloves ?

    The fact that women in the study project their negative feelings toward the harraser onto all men is in fact sexism which of course the blog ignores because its part of the blog writer's MO that women are good and men are bad.

  188. #188

    @ Ken

    Keep talking....

    The women in this blog won't listen...

    But, those who really matter WILL.

  189. #189

    @ Ken
    "The fact that women in the study project their negative feelings toward the harraser onto all men is in fact sexism which of course the blog ignores because its part of the blog writer’s MO that women are good and men are bad."

    But the root of that "sexism" is reactionary to sexism, i.e. sexual harassment. So then, the solution here would be to try to identify, react and try to end sexism since it is, as the article concludes damaging to both sexes.

    Something negative, like sexual harassment obviously will produce a negative response to the perpetrator, and when it is repeated, then a stigma will be created.Is this sexism, In a way. Is it equal to the sexist attitudes that allow sexual harassment to happen? No. They are not equal, in that the negative sentiments towards men are parasitic in regards to sexual harassment, not symbiotic.

    To regard these negative sentiments as equally sexist is to stretch the term sexist until it has no meaning anymore. For example, I can find your statement that "the blog writer’s MO that women are good and men are bad." to be sexist and you in response can find that I think that is sexist is in itself sexist, and it mirrors rhetoric over and over again that in the end robs the word sexist of any gravity or meaning.

  190. #190

    It's important to distinguish between sexism and prejudice based on sex. This page explains what I mean: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/sexism-definition/

    I'm not linking away to dismiss your points, Ken, but because that site really explains it better than I can and has a lot more room to do so.

    Basically, sexism, like racism, requires that there is institutional/systemic power in the hands of the group that is committing it. This isn't true for women, so if you think that Amanda's posts are biased against men, or stereotype men, or that she's prejudiced, that's a claim you could make (backed up by examples, preferably). But you can't really claim that she's being sexist.

    Another factor in this debate is that because men are seem as the norm and their concerns/preferences/desires/etc are central, when a woman criticizes the system or makes pretty much any criticism of actions committed by some men, or committed predominantly by men (even if she is careful not to make sweeping judgments of all men), those words are given disproportionate weight in the minds of anyone with a stake in the status quo. Criticizing rape culture, even if you do it every day, is not criticizing men. Talking about sexual harassment as it is experienced by women is not stereotyping men.

    Without examples of what you've seen that leads you to believe that Amanda is stereotyping or being overly negative, that's the best I can do.

  191. #191

    It’s important to distinguish between sexism and prejudice based on sex.

    There is no such distinction. The individuals who try to claim there are such differences only do so in order to prevent themselves from being labeled "sexist." The claim about "institutional/systemic power" falls short when one considers that in most instances the individuals who commit such acts hold no such power and possess no direct or indirect access to such power. Likewise, sexism is defined as "prejudice or discrimination based on sex," to so argue that women cannot be sexist because they lack "institutional/systemic power" essentially alters the definition to deliberately exclude women as potential sexists.

    As for criticism based in feminist rhetoric not being criticism or stereotyping of men, that claim too does not hold water. The Vatican could make the same argument in regards to its views on homosexuality. However, it is clear that the criticism include judgments about gay people, their morality and their affect on society. Simply put: one cannot argue that one is not criticizing or stereotyping men when one makes claims about men in general.

    It becomes misogynistic when you lump all women together beneath the category “women” and try to assign fixed qualities to that category [...]

    Yet that occurred on this thread in regards to men. Feminists lumped all men together beneath the category of "men" and tried to assign fixed qualities to that category, along with qualities to the men who objected. What those men likely find exacerbating is that while feminists warn men that just "because a one woman has uttered a sexist remark to you doesn’t mean that the next twenty you meet also secretly harbor the same opinion," those feminists never apply this in the reverse. Instead, it is reasonable for a woman who was harassed by one man to be wary of all men, whereas any man with similar experiences is being unreasonable.

    The discussion has also been about all men, not just men who harass women. The demand has been that all men are obligated to protect women from harassment (because they are men, just like the harassers, and are therefore tangentially responsible other men's actions), and those who refuse are unwilling to check their privilege. That is a fairly disillusioning position to take, yet that is the general sentiment found on this thread.

  192. #192

    Okay, if you go strictly by the common dictionary definition, the term "sexist" could be applied to a person of any gender who discriminates against other people based on their gender. Most dictionaries, however, don't take into account the larger societal context, because they can't really. It's not their job.

    Feminists typically only apply the term to men because of the specific nature of living in a patriarchal society: men-as-a-group are the dominant gender compared to women-as-a-group or people of any other gender. This makes it a very concise, efficient term to describe not just a specific act or attitude of one person, but also to include the larger societal context. I'm arguing, as many feminists do, that the term should be used this way, because if you don't want to include the larger societal context, you can just say "prejudice based on gender" or "she's prejudiced against men" or "xe discriminates against men." You can reject this if you like, but I'm arguing that when one applies the term "sexist" to a woman, it is more confusing than if one were to say "prejudiced against men." Most feminists that I am aware of are more than happy to admit that women (and people of other genders) certainly can be, and sometimes are, prejudiced against men.

    I agree with this statement: "one cannot argue that one is not criticizing or stereotyping men when one makes claims about men in general." However, I don't think it applies to Amanda's writing, from what I've seen, or the "general sentiment found on this thread," as I read it. I don't know what writing you and Ken are specifically talking about, so I can't refute it, and I'm not interested in mining 190 previous comments to tally up who might be more correct in their interpretation.

    I can only speak for myself in this regard, and mention that I've seen my position on this confirmed on countless feminist blogs and in conversations with other feminists. I make every effort not to generalize about men or stereotype them. I do the same for every group of people: people of color, people with disabilities, religious people, mothers, fathers, dog owners, people who do not live in the United States, people with economic privilege, etc etc etc. Those are just the groups to which I do not belong; I also try to make it clear when I talk about myself as belonging to a group that I am not speaking for the entire group. Do I slip up sometimes? Sure, and I sincerely hope that if I do so, if I am unclear that I am speaking about a particular subset of a group or a few individuals and not the group as a whole, that someone will politely point that fact out and give me a chance to clarify. I do this for other bloggers and for people with whom I am having a conversation in real life. This is a much more mature, much more effective way of interacting than stewing over my assumptions about a person's beliefs or statements and then, when it comes up, vaguely accusing them of being racist or sexist or classist or ablist without supporting evidence. This is common courtesy and shows my respect for others as people.

    I still slip up, and I'm sure you could look over my previous comments and find one that sounds like I'm generalizing about all men. Like I said before, it's something I'm working on all the time. But I think it's only fair to speak up about a specific statement when you are concerned that someone is stereotyping men (or any other group) or showing prejudice against them and give hir a chance to respond.

    Finally, and please don't take this as a personal insult because I do not mean it that way, it is really difficult for a person with a particular type of privilege to read a criticism of some members of that privileged group and not take it personally. Again, I do this myself. I have noticed that I have gotten defensive about, for example, women of color talking about the negative actions/qualities of some white women. My first reaction is "But! But! I'm not like that!" and I have to remind myself that the woman wasn't necessarily talking about me, or maybe she is and I'm not aware enough of my own actions and thoughts. Or, I have found myself trying to discount the woman's perspective by accusing her of being oversensitive or exaggerating her experience. It takes a lot of work to get past these reactions and be able to just read that person's perspective and accept it as their reality, even if it is not mine.

    A lot of this discussion of harassment comes back to this, for me, and from what I can tell, for a lot of the other women posting here. It is extremely frustrating to have our perspectives and experiences constantly questioned, constantly undermined, by people who have not experienced what we are talking about. You claim that I did the same thing to someone else on here; if that is the case, I apologize. But I don't think it's too much to ask that if you don't understand what we're saying or you disagree with it, you give us the benefit of the doubt and ask us to clarify our words. I ask the same of women and of men who disagree with the prevalent male perspective in this thread.

  193. #193

    Here is a correlation for you, the more men cat call women, the more women (generally) kick men in the balls. If you know what's good for you, you will stop.

    Also, this may not surprise anyone, but d-bags and a-holes (not specifically the body parts, but those individuals that take on the characteristics of them) generally make the world a shitty place. If you see one of them acting out, maybe say "Not cool" or "Go F*** yourself" and you will be doing the world a service.

  194. #194

    One challenge that people seem to face perpetually is the challenge to be more free without infringing upon others. This is because, as society loosens up and throws off its Puritan shackles, people go overboad; they interpret societal permissiveness as "anything goes."

    Make no mistake: common sense should provide that, no matter how openly-sexual our society becomes, it is not okay, and will NEVER be okay, to get highly familiar with complete strangers- unless said strangers were met at a sex party, perhaps.

    The simple fact, though, is that as The Church falls under further attack, the concept of self-control is one that some of us will have to constantly relearn.

  195. #195

    This study proves only that a significant number of these 114 participants need to grow up. Any man or woman who feels wronged by a member of the opposite sex may be tempted to generalize their anger. Acting upon such feelings is very immature and destructive. Perhaps the initiators of this poorly thought out study have some personal issues to work on.

  196. #196

    Wow, the Men's Rights Activists who are angry-at-all-women have SURE found a place to vent in this comment thread. I am interested in men's issues, and men's perspectives, but it's hard to find MRA's who are interested in understanding women's issues in the same way. Instead, most (but not all) of the MRA's that I've come across are furious at women, and see the consideration of women's issues as lethal to men's concerns.

    Thank God that most of the men in my life are very respectful of women, love women, and don't have a huge chip on their shoulders. I have 4 younger brothers and a Dad, and all of them are very kind-hearted in their opinions of women, and see women primarily as people (rather than a power-hungry group to fight against). Me and my (female) friends have been sexually harrassed, stalked, and threatened with murder from time to time by various male strangers. Those experiences make us more wary of men. If I didn't have such a lot of good men in my life, I may find it hard to view men as a group positively & with hope.

  197. #197

    I was reading this article and these responses in hopes of finding some support. As a woman who has been sexually assaulted in a public place, and is now even more threatened and terrified, yes terrified, by men who catcall me (which happens DAILY for me in NYC, regardless of what I am wearing or doing), I am trying to understand how I can deal with this. I am not in a relationship, and I have been dating since the incident, but the daily harassment is a constant reminder, and it does make me wary of strange men. I feel like I can't connect with the men I am trying to date. I want to know what other women do about it, and how they try to deal with it, and if anything works for them. If any of the women on here who's posts I have liked, Sarah, Adrienne etc., have any advice for me, I would greatly appreciate it. I do not have insurance or finances to see therapist.

    thanks

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