@Frustrated Personal experience does not cancel out facts, and the fact is that the majority of women who are raped and report it are telling the truth.
One third of all the women in our armed forces will be raped. Most do not report it exept to medical personel, and when they do even with proof, most are raped by their superiors, who then beat the charges, and *the* *majority* *of* *those* *CONVICTED* receive *ONLY* a SLAP ON THE WRIST, SUCH AS REASSIGNMENT.
The Pentagon has aknowledged this, and is working to better it.

The civilian statistics are slightly better-*only* one out of six women in the US will be raped-FAR more worldwide.
Rape is INCREDIBLY common, and for you to assume otherwise based on your own bitterness, is the same as someone who once had a bad experience with a black person stating that all black people are lazy, shiftless liars, or, in your case, that all women are liars.

In other words, you pass the misogyny test, my friend.

Frustrated, thanks for your concern re: my sexlife. I've never had consensual sex with a man but that's probably more due to my lesbianism than me having been raped and ruined for life as you seem to view it.

I did read all your thread, including the part where you provided a shoulder to cry on for the woman who didn't want to have sex with you. Who said chivalry was dead?

I just don't understand, even with the details about her climbing on top of you, and apologising for her accusations (more on that later), how you think this 'sex' was in any way normal. Does it not bother you that you had sex with someone who burst into tears?

Really, does this seem normal to you?

Are you going to put this all down to 'mental instability'?

Is there not a tiny tiny bit of you that thinks that maybe, perhaps, you did something not quite right?

As for her climbing on top of you, 'Yes means yes!: visions of female sexual power & a world without rape' has a brilliant introduction by Margaret Cho which explains the reasons that women initiate sex that they have no desire for. Please read it.

As for her apologising for her accusations, this is the kind of thing you do when you want to smooth over something socially. Have you never apologised for something you didn't feel sorry about? I do it all the time - at work, I do it about ten times a day. It doesn't mean she doens't think you raped her.

If someone accused me of raping them, and then later they apologised for it, I definitely would still not feel right about it.

Does the fact that this woman said you raped her not incite a tiny inkling in you that feels uncomfortable with what you did? Any inkling at all?

This conversation is pretty much over...I can see that many of the people here are pretty mystified at what I went through with this false rape accusation. I admit that gives me some faith in humanity.

Those who wish to call it rape...considering this woman herself doesn't herself consider it such and has apologized to me since (please read all the parts I wrote)...are allowing themselves to be stuck in a cycle of willful denial... and here are some of teh details from what Ive already written here.

...she and I both initiated...as in..she climbed up on me...

...she stopped and moments...within 15-30 seconds of me realizing it I stopped as well...

...she stayed with me and I was her shoulder to cry on talking about her ex-bf most of the day!!!!

For this to be called rape by her was self serving, and a sign of her mental and emotional instability.

For someone in this forum to call it rape by shaping it into whatever twisted fantasy they have in their own minds is further evidence proving there are some women/men out there who will invalidate the true horror of rape by trying to classify this within it.

THIS IS MY WHOLE REASON FOR POSTING! We all have an idea of what rape is...the 1.5 seconds of "I don't want it anymore" after 15 minutes of mutual sex...IS NOT RAPE when the other partner stops when he figures it out (and yes this happens pretty quick, some faster {1 -10 seconds?} than others {11-30?})

What a sad sad situation this is...

I'm fighting back the desire to be sarcastic with you as obviously you and your twisted perspective are the product of a horrible violation. Thank you for explaining how it came to be, it helps explains your willful misunderstanding and your inability to see the tragedy of a momentary mis-communication between lovers.

I pray that some day you are able to understand and experience a consensual and fulfilling sex life.

good luck

'to say that all the blame is attached to the man not noticing first sells women way short…2 people consensual acts…means both people have a responsibility.'

I'm confused. You had sex with woman who did not want sex. How is this consensual?

One thing that I thought about a lot after I was raped was, what was turning him on? I was crying and screaming and kicking before he exerted further force on me to shut me up and keep me still. Was my distress arousing to him?

What was turning you on? Her disinterest? Her upset? What was making you want to have sex with this disinterested and upset woman?

I think that all people being on a spectrum...some men would figure it out almost immediately (5-10 seconds), some connected and yet caught up men more time (30 seconds-1 min)some could be much longer...

Hannah...I you think it needs to be instantaneous I recommend that woman refrain from having sex (or in my case initiating) till they have some ownership over the situation and them selves. Things happen to people that can give them roadblocks...to say that all the blame is attached to the man not noticing first sells women way short...2 people consensual acts...means both people have a responsibility.

I pray Hannah that any man not possessing jedi like skills of emotional linkage stay far far far away from you and your casual labeling of rape.

'If you don’t convey this to the person you are with, are they supposed to know that very second? Can we really expect men to realise the very instant we have second thoughts/feel ill/feel guilty/are bored/just don’t feel into it anymore?'

I definitely think women are taught that it is impossible for men to notice our feelings all the time during sex.

I think the emphasis on verbal non consent ('if I asked him to stop'), apart from being completely unaccessible to people who are deaf and non verbal, comes from the idea that men are free to carry on until someone says no, or that rape becomes rape at the point where someone says no.

This just does not pay attention to the reasons why people might not be able to say no: disabilities, fear, shame, embarrassment, guilt, resignation, etc.

Various people have commented that it is unreasonable to expect men to notice that women are not into sex THE SECOND they lose interest. Not one person has given a time frame for how long they think women can be disinterested in sex before men should REASONABLY be expected to notice. How long is long enough? A minute? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Two hours?

I think it makes far more sense to expect men to be in touch with the feelings of the woman they are having sex with 24/7.

The cliff-notes version:
Even if women dressing or behaving in a particular way elicits a certain impulse from men - never mind that we live in a society which expects women to dress and behave in that way, and criticises and shames them when they don't - it is highly disengenuous to both sexes to suggest that men *have* to act on those impulses.

We are all more than just a product of our biology, people. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that 2000+ years of civilisation, philosophy, morality and ethics means absolutely nothing.

There has been no mention here of the fact that psychologically speaking men are more visually stimulated than women. As a male who struggles every day with trying to keep my eyes to myself I wonder why so many women take such efforts to make themselves so visually distractive - from short skirts to low-cut tops - I feel it is disrespectful to men like me who try to show respect women by looking them in the eyes when I talk to them, and not at their chests. Its not a man's fault that we're visually stimulated and easily turned on by what we see, that's just how our brains work. I'm not saying men are blameless when it comes to rape, they should be punished severely. But isn't it more important to combat the problem from both directions?

On the one hand shouldn't we be educating men about the importance of consent, teaching respectful values towards sexuality and cultivating a culture shift?

And on the other hand, should we not be educating young women about the psychological effect of how they dress and present themselves has on men? I wish we lived in a society where women could wear what they please and be fearless around any man, but based on my experience of being a man in locker rooms and in pubs and bars, I know that we males are more often than not caught off guard when a pretty woman in suggestive apparel walks by.

I've not commented on here before, but I just wanted to say I'm confused about LeftSidePositive and Hannah's response to Frustrated's comment where he said..."next morning started sex again…she wasnt into it mid way…I stopped…asked her what was wrong…told me she felt bad about cheating on her current BF…had TOLD me they were taking a break"... "so she classified it as rape…"

In the past, I've had sex before and lost interest halfway through. If you don't convey this to the person you are with, are they supposed to know that very second? Can we really expect men to realise the very instant we have second thoughts/feel ill/feel guilty/are bored/just don't feel into it anymore? I would never consider it rape if I changed my mind during the act of sex, and the guy I was with carried on. But I WOULD consider it rape, if I asked him to stop and he ignored me and carried on.

Am I wrong?

How many women does it take to construct a generalization? How many stories? If five women do something, is it enough to challenge the credibility of a million? THOUSANDS of guilty men get away with rape simply because our society thinks it's okay to make assumptions about how much women lie based on several anecdotes (that may or may not be true). I'm sure there have been hundreds of incidents where men are lying and accuse others of stealing from them, but never have these incidents been used to discredit the honesty of their entire sex. One man's folly is his own, but one woman's folly is every woman's burden. It disgusts me.

As to the whole getting explicit consent/ wearing a condom/ whatever “is a mood killer” argument… if any guy cares more about “the mood” (ie his pleasure) than a woman’s mental or physical wellbeing, IMO, he should not be allowed out in charge of a penis. But that’s a bit off topic, sorry.

WELL SAID!!!!!

As to the whole getting explicit consent/ wearing a condom/ whatever "is a mood killer" argument... if any guy cares more about "the mood" (ie his pleasure) than a woman's mental or physical wellbeing, IMO, he should not be allowed out in charge of a penis. But that's a bit off topic, sorry.

One little quibble (and it's a small one): could we not use a term like "re-negotiated" to discuss consent?! It sounds very sterile, and I don't want to give any ammo to those "but getting consent is a mood killer!" claims. Maybe "if consent was not given" or "if consent was not re-affirmed" or "If he didn't know for sure what she was in the mood for," etc.

I'd go on, but I think LeftSidePositive said it better than I did just a few posts upthread.

Crazy, I know, but I'm going with the woman who said he raped her.

What she said was 'she had STOPPED WANTING SEX that morning and [Frustrated] had continued….' Sounds like rape to me.

Um all that said, I agree 100% with the article.

I don't know where the idea that you can hump away at anything until it says no comes from. For the rest of life, people rely heavily on non-verbal cues even if they are hearing and verbal. People smell thunder, test bath water with their elbows, feel or smell when babies need changing, know when someone has been crying, judge the temperature of oil with their palms, know from the way people move their faces whether or not they are enjoying their food, can sense when people are angry and recognise people they know from the vibration of their footsteps and the smell of their perfume. But for some reason, when it comes to sex (or rape), it's all 'YOU DIDN'T SAY NO, WHAT AM I, PSYCHIC?'

As Hannah pointed out, what you did is a pretty big deal. How exactly did the sex start the next morning? Did you ask her? Was she clearly into it at first? People are complicated. Sometimes people's minds change about intimacy, especially when there are major upheavals in their lives, which sounds like what she was going through here. Maybe you didn't do anything legally wrong, but you were clearly involved with someone who was dealing with some major issues in her life and her pain and confusion certainly sounds real. She wasn't trying to be vindictive or anything to you, she sounds like she was genuinely hurt by what you did in bed.

As for #1--COME ON, man!!! Do you realize how scared many women are about going to the police to report their rapes? Do you realize how traumatic that is? And you assume that because she wasn't going to the police that it wasn't "real" rape? And that she panicked when you tried to FORCE her to report this to the police? This woman just had a very traumatic experience when someone wouldn't listen to her wishes in a very personal way, and what do you do? You ignore her wishes and try to force her to do something!! Smart, man!

You're really surprised that someone changed her story? Dude, people have a LOT of conflicting feelings about how much they're willing to share about something so private. People especially start to close up or try to seek approval or "gloss over" things when they feel they're being judged. Given the current political climate over abortion, don't you think there would be some pretty conflicting emotions about what she could and couldn't tell you??

Frustrated, you raped this woman. She stopped wanting sex and you carried on. You had sex (for whatever amount of time) with a woman who did NOT want sex. What else do you think that is? Clearly it wasn't regular sex. Regular sex doesn't make women cry and talk to their friends about how you raped them. How can you be so casual about having not 'stopped soon enough'? Have you no remorse?

As for, she didn't say 'no', have you never been a situation where you have been scared and you find it hard to talk? Or you've been nervous so your voice kind of disappears? Or you have been repulsed and you go silent?

I'm glad she told all your friends and your family, a lot of women feel silenced by men like you.

#1 was a GF I had broken up with whpo wanted me back after we'd broken up over me going on a road trip. I was 19 she was 22. Told me a freind of mine raped her when I went on my road trip. Never told me who. Later told me she was preggo...then that she had an abortion...then that she didnt...then that she did....then that she didnt...end result is I assumed she lied about all of it. Her rape story always changed, and not in small ways...BIG ways...refused to go to cops with me. took phone from my hand when I called them for her when she told me.

#2 different ex GF. When we started dating told me her ex had raped her. she went over there and "fell asleep" on his bed and he rapoed her. Never let me confront him. Never called the cops. Never even talked abad about him. Would down play the sitaution. I belived her...who LIES about something like rape. 1 year after she and I had broken up ran into her at Uni...she wanted to come to a fire pit at my house...we enjoyed each others time. She stayed the night... in my bed...we took turns "driving" that night...next morning started sex again...she wasnt into it mid way...I stopped...asked her what was wrong...told me she felt bad about cheating on her current BF...had TOLD me they were taking a break...I comforted her...we had breakfast...then lunch...then took her home...found out from mutual friends that she was telling people I forced myself on her....I confronted her...made her talk to me about it....this confrontation was in a coffee shop around 2pm...she told me that she knows I didn't push myself on her but that she had STOPPED WANTING SEX that morning and I had continued....so she classified it as rape...cause in the MIDDLE of CONSENSUAL SEX she stopped wanting it and I didn't stop soon enough...no "stop", no "No", no "Hey I don't want to do this" just her getting quiet and me taking a second to realize it....she told all my friends...she told my FAMILY...

..4 years later she wrote me a letter and apologized..but Im sure she lied about the first "rape" as well....I have NEVER believed a woman's story since and have been SURE to tell other guys who trusted unquestionably like I did the same story.

Frustrated, how exactly do you know that these women lied? Did they tell you this?

Toysoldier, I'm not sure how this works.

'a) sexually provocative clothing indicates a desire for sexually-based attention

b) rapists are motivated by sexual desire

c) provocative clothing is more likely to draw rapists’ attention'

Do you mean that people think rapists are drawn, out of some kind of philanthropic generosity, to women they think want sexually-based attention? HOW NICE DO PEOPLE THINK RAPISTS ARE?

That seems unlikely given that women engage in the same behavior described above with gay men. The more likely explanation is that people -- men and women -- take issue with those who do not fit their presumptions about "proper" behavior and they feel it is their "right" to make that known. The more unconventional the gay person, the more likely the response will be verbally and physically hostile. The more conventional the gay person, the more likely the response will be sexual in nature, typically stemming from the notion that once the gay person has sex with the "appropriate" gender the gay person will be "fixed."

That behavior is not analogous to rape as the motivation has nothing specifically to do with sexual dominance. It is almost always about cultural and social norms, hence the reason butch lesbians receive a specific set of insults while masculine gay men like my brother receive a different set of responses, namely overt sexual harassment from women.

That said, one's argument about mini-skirts fails to acknowledge a very basic point: socially speaking, a short skirt is still considered sexually provocative. One could argue that should not be the case, but at the moment it is, which is why people looking for explanations for rape latch on to that article of clothing. The connection people are making is:

a) sexually provocative clothing indicates a desire for sexually-based attention

b) rapists are motivated by sexual desire

c) provocative clothing is more likely to draw rapists' attention

which in turn leads to d) rapists assault people wearing sexually provocative clothing because they wore those clothes.

Again, one could argue about the truthfulness of the connection people made, but that is the logic behind their responses. Trying to tie those assumptions in with homosexuality is a much trickier task since most of negativity towards gay people stems from the perceived violation of social norms or religious mores, not necessarily a desire to sexually dominate others.

I think the logic's more complicated than that.

Firstly, it is a way of focusing on stranger rape that happens outside rather than the more common kinds of rape that happen in the home or in institutions.

It's a way of talking about what women are wearing when they are walking home alone at night, rather than what sex workers have to wear in order to earn a living, rather than what people are made to wear in prisons or in mental institutions or in schools, what people are given to wear in residential homes and sheltered housing, or what adults and children are wearing in the home when they are attacked by their partners or their families.

Basically, I think it's a way of pretending people have more control than they do. A lot of men find this comforting because it absolves them of responsibility for any rape-ish sex they have ever been involved in. I think women like the idea because it gives the illusion of control. But plenty of women get raped wearing conservative clothes, and plenty of people get raped in situations where they have limited control over what they wear.

You would think so, right? But rape used to be a capital offense and women's groups lobbied to change the law because juries wouldn't convict rapists because they didn't think rape was a crime that warranted execution, boys will be boys and all of that. Blergh!

- short skirts don't equal rape.

- rape isn't about sex it IS about a power dynamic

- women can and do lie about being raped for many f*cked up reasons.

- if we kill or castrate all men found guilty of rape, lets also kill every woman that is found out to have used rape as a shield for a behavior she regrets.

I apologize if this comment upsets or triggers any survivors here, but I felt compelled to speak out.

Innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent are not the only 2 choices available. Some jurisdictions are looking into modifying how defences to rape are handled.

There are 2 basic defences: 1) it wasn’t me 2) it wasn’t rape. Widespread use of DNA testing has made defence #1 moot in most cases, which leaves defence #2. This one has proven effective with the most common kind of rape: acquaintance rape. The burden on proof is on the victim to show she did not consent.

What if you changed the rules such that in order to use defence #2 the defendant had to show that the victim consented in some affirmative way? He’s still innocent until proven guilty, he just has to meet a higher burden to utilise the defence of choice.

It’s no panacea, of course. This still leaves us with the usual problems of misogyny in society seeping into the courtroom. It’s still her word against his. But at least he would have to get up on the stand and say ‘she consented’ and be cross-examined, rather than be able to sit at the defence table in silence while his attorney rips the victim apart.

I'd also like to mention that this is only ONE subgroup of people, and it is never the victim's fault. I personally am in college and of course go out wearing short skirts or low tops or high heels (although in the Madison weather this isn't really viable...). It's just important to note that there are indeed some rapists motivated by this image of the short skirt. Not most, but we shouldn't ignore those that are because if we do, we can't tackle the problem at large.

"The fact that the legal system makes criminals “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t help much either. It just reinforces that the victim has to prove what happened"

I know that the burden of proof allows many men to get away with rape. I don't take this fact lightly. If I were a woman it might weigh even heavier on me, but this wouldn't change my position. It's better that ten guilty go free than one innocent be convicted. I will join the fight against rape culture, but not if it entails weakening the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

And I don't trust how people will react or what I will feel if they see more than I want them to. Just imagine being a guy and being able to walk around without frequent street harassment - the closest I can get to that freedom is to dress conservatively, with my hair under a warm winter hat.

Also, I am a wuss in the cold, which doesn't hurt.

The fact that the legal system makes criminals "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't help much either. It just reinforces that the victim has to prove what happened, in most cases, the women has to prove that she was raped and that she did not consent. If the tables were turn and the aggressor had to prove he didn't rape the victim, rape would be seen a lot differently. Instead of always focusing on the victim with questions like: did she enjoyed it, did she hint towards wanting sex, did she dressed in a sexy way and whatever. We would be analyzing the aggressor: what was his state of mind, what hinted you towards wanting sex, what is his marital status etc etc

I just think it's about time we start being interested by questions like; Who rapes and why? Why not masturbate?

We've taught women to respect themselves, to carry pepper-spray, to be ready to run, to always think of the possibility of an assault. Now it's time for the men who respect and love women to teach other men that it's not an option, ever. That women really don't enjoy being forced into. That consent is needed at all steps in a sexual relationship. That women are no longer open holes who spread their legs at command!

this should really be part of the school curriculum at an earlier age (or ANY age) because it seems that by the time men and woman are in their twenties it is too late.

People say they are concerned about rape and harassment, school officials just love talking about how troubled they are by recent statistics, but instead of doing anything about it, like including it in the sex ed curriculum, they send out some stupid e-mail or flyer about how to protect yourself and avoid getting raped.

Someone who looks sexy isn't signalling they want sex with everyone any more than a shop displays it's stock seductively so you can steal it all.
I find the notion that wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped totally outrageous.