(I'll save everyone the trouble: I don't get it, you'll pray for me, etc. Much obliged. While I'm not Christian, I respect the faith, admire its theories, and think it's often maligned. I'm basically just here to say thanks to Steven. I saved your posts in a file. The sensible remarks you made remind me of my father, the most fiercely charitable servant of God I know.)

"WHAT?! What other mammals do that?! If you are thinking about the stupid peguins, it’s a made up book trying to indoctrinate our kids! Besides how could it not have any negative impact on the species when two males as well as two females cannot produce an offspring."

What other mammals do that? I know from personal experience that cows do.

I grew up ranching cattle. In a herd of 150 cows and 2 bulls, seeing one cow mount another (referred to as "bulling") was a common sight.

You realize that lusting for a woman who isn't your wife is a perversion of God's plan for marriage, right? And in fact, if you aren't married, you better not have any sex drive at all. Because that's completely taking God's gift of sex and twisting it into something horrible.

So. I went to reconciliation yesterday (gasp) and recieved communion (gasp). Okay. I'm in full communion with the Church again. Because I've been away from the Church for a few years I don't have a legitimate voice? Try bashing your head against a wall a few times and then get back to me. I'd rather you argue to my points, rather than my condition. I changed the condition, now you change your tone. Quit with the ad hominem as I have shown NONE of this to you or anyone.

and re: health care is not a right? well, the way it is now goes clear against the 7th commandment. Taking advantage of the poor. CCC 1867. Why is it that millions upon millions of poor Americans have no access to health care? Because we let it happen. Do they not deserve to be tended to? Like, Luke 10:9, Jesus called his disciples to go and tend to the sick. Did they discriminate who they went to? No, because mercy and compassion knows no dollar amount. Man, this thread has a lack of that mercy and compassion stuff to. *shrugs*

@ Lloyd

"BUT THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS."

Sure, so is the act of adultry, fornication, masturbation, bearing false witnesses, coveting your neighbors wife, gluttony, abuse, anger, hatred, defraudement, taking advantage of the poor, unfair wages, adulation (that's a big one here), envy, avarice.

If you've done any one of those, you're no worse than those that you are rallying against.

"However, the Church has not, does not, and will never approve homosexual “marriage”, and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because marriage involves sex, and homosexual sex is a gravely mortal sin."

The Church has not, does not, and will never approve of heterosexual "divorce", and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because the resulting case is often one based in adultery (i.e. sex with someone you are NOT married to), and adultery is a gravely mortal sin.

What's the difference here? One is discriminated against, and the other is not? All sins are equal in God's eye? Correct? James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Am I against the complacency of the Church in handling these matters? Absolutely.

"Sexual intercourse, as God created it…between one man and one woman married for life, is far better than any perversion thought of by anyone here. It is quite simply the most amazing gift, and according to statistics, we Catholics who follow such teachings and Humanae Vitae, enjoy far more sex and fare more satisfying sex than anyone else.

So you can keep your perversions. We’ll keep God and His great gift. We would rather die than be forced to experience your depravities."

I have no doubt that you mean well. But, be consistent in your attacks. Go after the heterosexual parishioners of your parish who are unmarried and having sex, as, they too, are living something perverse. Go after all of the parishioners who masturbate as they're doing something perverse. Go after the divorcees. Once you (as most of you I have met are all alike in this regard) start doing this, and embracing a consistent focus on how you handle this. But, in my eyes, all of the focus is on the gays, and not any of the other tree trunks in your eyes. Your virulence is absolutely blinding. Where's the compassion for the people?

They're animals, remember? There is a difference between their not being able to control their sexual URGES than cultivating emotional relationships like human beings do! Also, there is a difference between animals of the same sex caring for one another as a survival mechanism for the group, such as with lions, wild dogs, and other pack groups; but when it comes time to mate, the opposite sex is still the choice even in animals!
Also, please don't assume that I am one of these "Hateful Catholics" just because I disagree with your point of view. You cannot see into my heart just as I can't into yours and it is really something satan enjoys to divide people's humanity.
Oh, and as for the use of dildos used in marriage; it's okay as long as it is in the context of foreplay that leads up to the sexual union open to creating life between a wife and a husband.

that's right, and no sex that feels good for women (vibrators, fingers, tongues). missonary only! don't know about you but I can't get off at all, married or not, with missionary PIV only.

ugh if your into boring sex, FINE, do it, stop trying to force it down all our throats.

ok... so intercourse involving a dildo in a mans ass between husband and wife "married for life" is ok then? or not? i didn't understand your answer. what about a dildo in the woman's ass? or her vagina? what about fingers? any toys? anything but PIV?? is "foreplay" (hate that word, foreplay is sex IMO) forbidden? missionary procreative sex only? BORING.

no matter how much you claim you are more satisfied than everyone else, it's not gonna convince me. I am very satisfied with my partner and that's all that matters to me. you can do whatever you want.

So you can keep your perversions. We'll keep God and His great gift. We would rather die than be forced to experience your depravities.

And you do realize that, according to the RCC, heterosexuality isn't okay unless its specifically directed towards the spouse only, and in the context of full on sex, right? Because I'm pretty sure that about 100% of your Catholic heterosexuals are breaking that rule, too. Pots and kettles, you know?

The real questions is which mammals DON'T. (and penguins aren't MAMMALS, so not sure why you went off on that. plus it's not made up, I've been to the zoo and seen it myself.) Pretty much every mammal people have been able to observe have had gay sex.

The evolutionary benefit to a small population of gays (in humans) is this: If you are a gay aunt/uncle, you won't have kids of your own, therefore you can help your brother/sister with THEIR kids - which will also pass on your genes!

Of course it's not harmful in any way, even if they DON'T help raise any children.

IMO, love is much better than hate. hateful catholics should try it.

What if I "violate" my HUSBAND'S rectum with a rubber phallus? What if he "violates" my vagina with a vibrating silicone one? What if we actually enjoy having sex? I think that might be a sin too.

These people must have awfully boring sex.

Kay's own blog suggests she hasn't been to Mass in years, so her comments carry absolutely no weight. Kay needs to keep reading and get back to Mass, for she spouts things she doesn't understand. In other words, in a debate against Father John Corapi, she would pee herself.

Again, I reiterate Paul. You can rape us, murder us, chop us up, and burn us. None of that would surprise because its all been done before.

Unfortunately for ideologues such as yourself, those tactics only work on YOU. We've dealt with it for twenty centuries and still do to this very day.

You can't win. You'll never win. Only God wins.

Care to quote the rest of your citations? The Church has always said the orientation is not wrong, BUT THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS. Is that clear? Go ahead, quote the rest of the Catechism.

No, we DON'T discriminate based upon sexuality. Homosexuals can be Catholics. However, the Church has not, does not, and will never approve homosexual "marriage", and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because marriage involves sex, and homosexual sex is a gravely mortal sin.

Do you understand that, or do we need pictures?

Those who observe the works of God must surely have observed by now that there is no way to make a gay person a heterosexual. Some of us have also observed that the behavior seems to occur quite naturally among other mammals, without any negative impact on those species.

WHAT?! What other mammals do that?! If you are thinking about the stupid peguins, it's a made up book trying to indoctrinate our kids! Besides how could it not have any negative impact on the species when two males as well as two females cannot produce an offspring.

and Kay, what rights are being violated??Health care is not a right!

"The teachings of the Church make it clear that the fundamental human rights of homosexual persons must be defended and that all of us must strive to eliminate any forms of injustice, oppression, or violence against them (cf. The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, 1986, no. 10)."

How about dem apples?

"Choosing to violate a man’s rectum with a penis, or to fake the marital act with a rubber phallus is indeed a choice, and a sinful one at that."

What if I violated a Man's rectum with a rubber phallus? Would that blow your mind?

Aside...

Spambalaya, fantastic words with the Church denying communion around to those who support the death penalty, unjust war, systemic disenfranchisement to perpetuate poverty. I'm from Chicago, and under the great Joseph Cardinal Bernardin, I came to know this ideology, I grew up with this...

But this is in no way, shape, or form, consistent with the way the Church looks to its own flock, as you said. There's the air of hypocrisy that just permeates through it. You want to ban abortions, but you don't care about the poor. You want to end the 'depravity' of gays... yet, I know priests, brothers, and sisters, who are gay, and not only tolerated (yeah, i know... supported is a lot to ask), but incredible ministers of Christ and his love. Does your god condemn these people? (@spam c, lloyd? I'm pretty sure mine doesn't.

It just boggles my mind, If they think that homosexuality is a choice, and it's a grave sin, why aren't they disenfranchising their other non-catholic staff who fornicate and live in adultery (also a grave sin).

I'm assuming many of you gay bashing catholics have never read the 'always our children' memo from the USCCB (located here http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml) which was fantastically crafted as a real answer to how the US Church opines as opposed to what individual d-bags say.

"There seems to be no single cause of a homosexual orientation. A common opinion of experts is that there are multiple factors—genetic, hormonal, psychological—that may give rise to it. Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose."

ZOMG. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING GAY ACCORDING TO CATHOLICS! ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG!

Did you miss it?

"not as something freely chosen."

"not as something freely chosen."

"not as something freely chosen."

Amazing huh? I only point this out so drastically, so that there's a middle ground between LGBT Catholics (like myself), the LGBT Left who thinks that ZOMG RELIGION H8S ME, and the Catholic Right, who think that ZOMG TEH CHURCH SAY GAYZ R BAD. This point of contention I hear all the time from my LGBT friends, collegues, whomever, as a misguided principle that's not consistent with the overarching teachings of the Catholic Church.

If being gay is not bad. Then, well, you catholic gay bashing numbskulls. Throw the first stone (John 8:7), c'mon. I dare you. Tell me you're less likely to ever experience mortal sin than gays? C'mon.

The individual people in this game are bad. The system is questionable (i.e. the ideology and theology of the Church), but, overwhelming the problem lies in the people in charge of the DC CC, and the DC Archdiocese, than in the Catholic Church.

Oh, and Ray Russ. You're ignorant as hell. Pedophilia in the Church is still below national non-clergy and protestant clergy levels. Do some research before making shit up.

Catholic and Mormon Churches: Experienced GROWTH in the past few years. Primarily due to the fact that they DON’T bend to the whims of popular society."

Spam Conqueror, you missed my point entirely. Regardless of whether Church membership is growing, the actual adherence of those members to established Catholic doctrine has been in decline for years. Birth control, divorce, and support for the death penalty and torture are now more common among the laity than ever before, and yet the Church turns a blind eye to these transgressions within its own flock. Too many Catholics just don't take Church teachings on one or more of these subjects seriously anymore, and the clergy is too cowed to loudly and vigorously speak out from the pulpit against these sins for fear of offending their meal tickets. The moral legitimacy of the Church among Catholics is indeed on the wane.

But when there's an opportunity to heap the blame for society's ills on a minority that resides for the most part outside the Church, in this case gays and lesbians, the Church pulls out all the stops. It can climb on its high horse without really risking anything approaching self-examination, and can present a cheap façade of morality even as the decay within its own walls continues unabated.

When the Church denies Communion to the public torture apologists and the politicians who support the death penalty, let me know. At that point I may consider taking its claims of moral integrity seriously again. But I sure ain't holding my breath, because that would require REAL moral courage.

Fuck your christ in the ass.

Don't worry if you can't convince knuckleheads on here that their lifestyle choices are leading directly to their destruction. Your tossing your pearls before the swine here. They've been told, at length, that they are wrong, yet refuse to listen.

We've done all we can here, and it was a tremendous success. God bless each one of you standing up for REAL marriage (1 man and 1 woman for life). It doesn't matter what the 1% thinks about it, for their relationships will NEVER be marriage in the eyes of the Church, in our eyes, or the eyes of the vast majority of the nation. If they want to be deluded and live in sin, despite knowing better, we have done all we can. Another victory for our Holy Mother the Church!

All glory and honor to Jesus Christ. Lord, Creator, and Master of all here...including the unbalanced and violent guy!

Viva la Christ!

Its always funny to hear someone complain of the Church, and then suggest its waning because it won't bend to their world view. Never mind that such an opinion is not based in fact.

Catholic and Mormon Churches: Experienced GROWTH in the past few years. Primarily due to the fact that they DON'T bend to the whims of popular society.

Protestant and "other" churches: Experienced DECLINE, precisely over the homosexual issue and being far too liberal...i.e., bending to what is popular.

So your words do not match reality, mister spambalaya.

Paul M, seek help, because the way you write makes you appear to be a violently abusive individual. If you are representative of the homosexual lobby, you are fulfilling the very type of person we are so concerned about, and warn our children of. I will pray for you.

There's same-sex marriage in six venues in the US now, and not a dam thing you can do about it. So I don't know where you get the 31-0 figure. Seems it ought to be 31-6 at least. And in 10 years, you know there will be more place in the US to marry not less. You're spitting in the wind, loser. History is on the side of human progress, not you and your fuckin' nailed-to-a-tree god (who was probably a raging bottom boy).

So much for the sacrament of heterosexual marriage, eh? In the eyes of the Church, it's just a bargaining chip now.

This sort of cynicism and hypocrisy is precisely why the influence of the Church continues to wane. Birth control usage among Catholics is more widespread than ever, as is divorce. Prominent Catholics such as Marc Thiessen can publicly embrace torture as a virtue and still partake in Communion. Similarly, acceptance and even vocal support of the death penalty by Catholics is met with craven silence from the Church hierarchy.

Yet when persons who aren't even Catholic want to have their committed, loving and monogamous relationships recognized not by the Church but by the secular State, suddenly there's an uproar about the immorality of it all. Anyone who still believes in the moral authority of the Church really needs to open their eyes. Bigotry is evil, not moral.

I'm not irritated. Instead, your little temper tantrum over your right to sexual perversion makes me shake my head in embarrassment for you.

Nancy Boy Wuerl will simply have to get over himself. I know it's a shock that your god didn't descend on a cloud and stop this pagan orgy of same-sex marriage, but that's what you get for believing in something that's just not there.

I hope this really irritates you. I really do. It please me greatly to see you (and the people who agree with you) realize that they lost permanently on this issue. Meanwhile, you know deep down that every state where same-sex marriage has failed will eventually adopt the progressive stance, and there's nothing you or your make-believe god can do to stop this.

It's nice when progressives win; it's better when conservatives lose.

The homosexual lobby on the DC council cares more about their lifestyle choices than the poor. It is obvious by how much money they pour into lawsuits to "normalize" what is objectively disgusting and immoral behavior instead of using that to help the poor and disadvantaged. I've never met a homosexual activist who cares about anyone or anything besides his or herself and his or her sexual perversions.

Archbishop Wuerl used to be the bishop of my diocese. He was great at explaining Church doctrine in simple terms and generally seemed to use diplomacy to deal with controversies. I'm surprised and disappointed that he has not handled this situation better.

But, as much as I want to tell you, OMG ITS THE CATHOLIC FAITH that's the problem, it's not. Its the people not following their own rules, it's the hypocrites, it's the shameless discriminators that have caused this.

The Catholic Church doesn't pin one sin higher or lower than the other (in reference to moral vs venial), just like it doesn't inherently say that gay sex is worse or better than bearing false witness. Catholic Charities doesn't discriminate against liars working for them, they don't discriminate against working with the LGBT poor, why would they discriminate against the LGBT that work for them? Because they're ignorant humans who are on a slippery moral slope.

They've failed their own mission in a quest for partisianship.

(poorly written journal comment attached as website if you want to yell how ridiculous i am).