To Avoid Funding Gay Marrieds, Catholic Charities Denies Benefits to All Spouses
The Archdiocese of Washington has been battling the D.C. government for the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians since D.C.’s same-sex marriage legislation got rolling last year.
One major point of contention: Once gays and lesbians are allowed to marry, the Archdiocese—which employs plenty of locals through Catholic Charities—will be required to provide health benefits to same-sex spouses, an act which it says would fly in the face of the Catholic church’s teachings on homosexuality.
The solution? No spousal benefits for anybody.
Today, Catholic Charities President and CEO Edward Orzechowski sent out a memo to staffers informing them of the change to the health care coverage, which will go into effect tomorrow.
In short: If you and your spouse are already enrolled in Catholic Charities health coverage, your spouse will be grandfathered in. Starting tomorrow, however, new employees (or newly married employees, hint hint) will not be allowed to add spouses to the plan. So: Longtime employees will receive the spousal benefits they’ve always had; Catholic Charities will get to keep its pool of covered spouses gay-free; only fresh employees and gays will feel the sting on this one.
Here’s the memo:
I am writing to you to inform you of an important change to our group health care benefit plan that will take effect on March 2, 2010 due to a change in the law of the District of Columbia. It is important to note that the existing health coverage of current employees will not be affected by the change. New employees and current employees requesting revisions in benefit coverage will be affected by this change.
Catholic Charities will continue to honor the health plan coverage that current employees have as of March 1, 2010. As of March 2, a new plan will be in effect that will cover new employees and requests for benefit changes by current employees. The new plan will provide the same level of coverage for employees and their dependents that you now have, with one exception: spouses not in the plan as of March 1, will not be eligible for coverage in the future. If your spouse currently has coverage in our Plan, he/she may continue to be covered by the health benefit plan, even if you later add a dependent or decide to change your option level (e.g., change from low option to high option). Please see the attached formal Plan Amendment.
We sincerely regret that we have to make this change, but it is necessary to allow Catholic Charities to continue to provide essential services to the clients we serve in partnership with the District of Columbia while remaining consistent with the tenets of our religious faith.
A summary of the Plan modification has been mailed to you at your home address. If you have any questions on this matter, please e-mail your Human Resources manager or, if you do not have access to email, call. Please remember, this change does not impact your current coverage in any way.
Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and let me again express my appreciation for your support and patience over these past months as we have worked hard to arrive at a decision that allows us to continue to serve others in a manner that is consistent with our religious beliefs.
Photo by Darrow Montgomery
4:54 pm
What’s the expiration date on religion? I can’t wait.
5:45 pm
I simply cannot for the life of me understand how the Catholic Church (especially its governing bodies) can claim to have a clear conscience in this regard. What a ridiculous, harmful, and peevish thing to do. Why do they hate equal rights so much? My parents wouldn’t tolerate me throwing a temper tantrum like this AS A TWO-YEAR-OLD!
Are there moderate Catholics who are refusing to tithe or attend mass until the Church grows up?
5:47 pm
Jesus would NOT do this.
6:08 pm
Really, the Catholic Church is run by a bunch of miserable scum.
6:11 pm
Right of the Martyr handbook.
6:12 pm
Good to know that discriminating against LGTB folks is more important to them than ensuring sick folks can get healthcare. Very Christlike, indeed.
6:13 pm
Left Side, I’m a progressive Catholic, and I started going to All Souls Unitarian when the diocese started this nonsense. And I sent a letter saying that I wouldn’t set foot in a Catholic Church or donate one penny until this was rectified. They sent me a couple of follow up emails arguing against my position, so I know they really read their letters.
6:24 pm
i know folks are focused only on the discriminatory intent here (equal opportunity deny so they can legally deny those they don’t want to support)
BUT
there is a silver lining. They’ve just ended their practice of discriminating in compensation packages on the basis of MARRIAGE. Equal pay despite religious sacraments.
That is a milestone beyond measure.
New employees (if they stand together), will also find a stronger argument for across-board increased compensation.
The net result is, in fact, MORE PROGRESSIVE, than what existed previously.
And the hilarity of it is that it is possible only because of hate.
7:01 pm
I’m not all that convinced that the Church’s motivation was so much to continue to “provide essential services to the clients we serve,” as it was a way to get those fat Government contracts to provide essential services….and pay their own salaries. Dicks.
8:37 pm
Of course a whole lot of people are nodding with agreement over the church’s move. There may be millions of us who are disgusted by this but there are millions of them too, and they vote, and they hold office, and they have boatloads of money. Keep fighting.
8:58 pm
I applaud the Church’s efforts against the homosexual lobby! I am also part of the MAJORITY in this regard as well. My family and friends have increased our donations to the Church because of these efforts. God Bless Archbishop Donald!
9:03 pm
The Catholic Church, oh you mean the one I quit paying attention because they OPENLY allow CHILD MOLESTORS within their ranks. Just hoping they pack up and move on out of DC….
9:08 pm
MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN. When two men can produce a child naturally, or two woman; then you can have your say. The Church is not going to go against it’s strong held truths just so some intolerant homosexuals will continue living unnatural lifestyles.
By the way, all of you who say they are doing it to boost their own salaries; Catholic priests take a vow of poverty. It’s the evangelicals that are the money worshippers. Oh, and don’t bother with the pediphilia crap; that has all but ended years ago; your local public school board has more cases of sexual abuse with children.
It’s funny, no one tries to impose their ways on Muslims, if it goes against their beliefs; guess anything anti-catholic is still the favorite with the so called tolerant liberals! Fine, keep aborting your babies and having same sex relationships; you’re bound to go extinct eventually just by natural selection!
9:09 pm
FACT: Homosexuals are twice as likely to abuse children, abuse drugs, be promiscuous, contract STDs/AIDS, suffer from mental disease, and commit suicide. Sounds like a real “glad” and “gay” time.
FACT: Homosexuals need love, support, and treatment to overcome their intrinsically disordered desires and addictions, not license to continue to spread disease and sorrow.
9:26 pm
I don’t need to believe in god because I believe in myself.
9:30 pm
FACT: All married people DO NOT have children.
FACT: All straight people don’t marry for love.
FACT: You can’t pray away the gay.
FACT: People opposed to same-sex marriage need love, support, and treatment to overcome their closed mindedness and addiction to the lives of other people.
9:32 pm
Well said David!
9:37 pm
Who’s the one with the real problem with the lives of other people?
I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, as it has been for how many thousands of years, but since you disagree with me, I’m the closed minded one?
Oh and yes, we can pray; but not to eliminate gays, but that their hearts might change.
As for not believing in God because you believe in yourself???? Ha! Ha! Ha! Silly man!
9:50 pm
Catholics are not going away. The Romans wanted to legalize all sorts of homosexual behavior, and the Christians protested against it. The Romans put the Christians to death in all sorts of unique and terrible ways in order to protect their homosexual interests. Funny thing about that, it didn’t work. We just kept coming back until the entire empire converted. The same will be true of the U.S. and western civilization. Time is always on our side, not yours.
9:55 pm
@ lisa:
The people on this board don’t have a problem with your beliefs about marriage. We have a problem with you (and, in this instance, Catholic Charities) trying to impose those beliefs on others. Let me put it this way: no one on this board will try to make you marry a woman or decree that you can’t marry a man. In return, we ask for the same courtesy.
Speaking as a fellow Christian, I personally am very disturbed by Catholic Charities’ decisions. It’s coming from an organization that I would expect to err on the side of charity rather than hatred. Political soapboxing can never substitute for leading a Christian life. I think you need to think and pray on this: do the people you meet, on the street, at your job, on anonymous internet boards, do they see Christ in you?
10:04 pm
Lisa is misinformed. Catholic priests do not take a vow of poverty.Monks and nuns do, but priests do not.
Irene also seems to be misinformed. She can assert whatever she wants, but that does not make it true. Hey, I can say that French people are more likely to get cancer and Canadians are more prone to ringworm.
If Irene is worried about molesters, STDs, and promiscuity–why doesn’t advocate that the Catholic organizations hire Lesbian since they have a lower rate of all of these than gay men and heterosexuals?
10:10 pm
“Ha! Ha! Ha! Silly man!”
I’m sorry, but that was the most hilarious thing I’ve seen all day. I’m going to start saying that to people that disagree with me, enunciating each HA, preferably while stroking a cat.
10:15 pm
Roman Catholic priest DO take a vow of poverty!
I’m not trying to enforce anything on you. I just stated my beliefs and I get this lecture of how “the people of this board” blah blah.
Tell me one thing, how is it that for thousands of years, gays never demanded marriage until now? Oh, what, you are more enlightened or something? By the way, every single time it is put to the people of this country to vote on gay marriage, gay marriage lost! You have the exact same rights under civil unions, why can’t you except that? Atheists have civil ceremonies when they wed, they leave religion out of it. So why not leave religion out of your same sex union? You seem to be so against anything the church believes, so why are you asking for a religious sacrament?
10:17 pm
When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity and changed it laws to conform with Christian beliefs, it fell.
Is the U.S. moving in the same direction?
10:19 pm
mel, now who is the misinformed one?!
10:29 pm
Rome was never stronger when it was Christian, but once it slid back into depravity, it rotted from within. The U.S. was never stronger when it was Christian, then is slid into homosexual and abortion-based depravity, and it will also fall (and soon too). Nothing good can come from homosexual “marriage”, which doesn’t exist to begin with.
10:40 pm
Since the Catholic Church has not singled out any other biblically deficient groups, such as adulterers, Divorcees, and fornicators, is it safe to assume that those people are eligible for employee benefits? It’s hard to imagine there are no Catholic Charities employees who have never divorced (bad) and remarried (double bad: divorce and adultery!) or single employees who have had pre-marital sex. I’ll bet there are employees who have routinely dishonored their parents, made graven images, violated the Sabbath, etc. Why are these other biblical villains never vilified, as gays are?
10:43 pm
@Lisa says: “Atheists have civil ceremonies when they wed, they leave religion out of it. So why not leave religion out of your same sex union?”
Ah, so Lisa agrees that gays should be able to have civil ceremonies to be wed and get the same benefits as Atheists. I can live with that for now.
Oh, but Lisa wants to deny equal benefits. Never mind.
10:46 pm
yeah that pope sure looks poor…
10:47 pm
religious crimes committed in the last 7 days:
Texas: Pastor Hezekiah Stallwork charged with molesting a seven year-old girl. Other victims are expected to come forward.
Mississippi: Youth pastor Stephen Brown charged with multiples counts of possessing child pornography.
Louisiana: Pastor Joseph Jones charged with multiple felony counts of dumping untreated human sewage from the six subdivisions he manages.
New York: Rabbi Milton Balkany charged with attempting to extort $4M from a hedge fund by claiming he had knowledge of insider trading.
California: Pastor John Albert Kleinpeter pleads guilty to using a hidden camera to take photos up women’s skirts at a shopping mall. Heh, “Kleinpeter.”
Florida: Pastor Gaston Smith convicted of stealing funds from a charity he set up to aide impoverished seniors.
New Brunswick: Pastor Frederick Hanson convicted of sexually assaulting an 11 year-old girl.
Kentucky: Pastor Marion Barnes charged with five felony counts of child molestation.
South Carolina: Pastor Arley Atchley charged with molesting two boys.
New York: Father Ralph Johnson arrested on 15 felony counts of molesting boys.
North Carolina: Pastor Ronnie Lee Jones confesses to felony embezzlement charges after being caught stealing from his church’s treasury.
Ireland: Father Ronald Bennett pleads guilty to multiple counts of child molestation.
Sydney: Father Robert Fuller convicted of masturbating over a webcam to a police officer he believed to be a 13 year-old girl.
10:48 pm
sure looks like that child raping business is over and done with.
The Catholic Church is a criminal organization responsible for the death of millions.
11:11 pm
As a gay man, I applaud the courage of the Church to stick to its teachings and practices. I was one of the most promiscuous and proud homosexuals in my city for many years before I had a profound conversion…literally knocking me off my feet. I rejoined my church and vowed to put away my old life in exchange for my new one. I literally took up my cross and became celibate, because I knew I could never be straight. I have been celibate for eight years now, and they have been the best of my life. No more drugs. No more abuse. No more broken relationships. And, by the Grace of God, AIDS free to stay. My worst day as a celibate Catholic gay man is far better than my best day as a practicing homosexual, and I would not trade my life to go back. God bless the Church!
11:23 pm
Tell me one thing, how is it that for thousands of years, gays never demanded marriage until now?
Yeah, and why did those silly women never demand the right to vote until the 1800’s? Jeez, they were happy with being property for SO long!
Atheists have civil ceremonies when they wed, they leave religion out of it.
But atheists can still get married. Gays and lesbians, in most states, can’t. And by the way, nobody’s going to force the Church to marry gays. If we tolerant liberals have our way, a union between two men, or two women, will be recognized as a legal marriage by the state. That’s it.
As for the benefits thing…Honestly, this reminds me of a cranky child who refuses to come out of his room because his mommy made him share a toy with his sister.
11:25 pm
To be sure, hyperbolic statements such as “the church is responsible for killing millions” are so ridiculously untrue, they’re barely worth mentioning. Fellow atheists such as Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot murdered millions more than any in the church. As a non-religious, I can truthfully say that upon study, the church only killed, at most, around a few thousand during the Inquisition, and those at the hands of politicians primarily. Lets keep the hate at least somewhat intelligent.
11:26 pm
Congrats to you, Rick, and God bless you too! I agree with you, and I applaud the Church as well. A strong stance against the bigots of the homosexual lobby, who spend millions on themselves and have never lifted a hand to help the poor or the sick.
11:29 pm
@JeffreyRO5:
The answer to your question is a matter of identity. Nobody has adultery pride parades. No one has divorce pride week. No one comes out and says “I’m a fornicator and I’m proud!” No one says “I’m a thief, and I’m proud!”
Why not? Because people are ashamed of these things. The Catholic Church always forgives someone for behavior when they earnestly repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness.
Now compare this to the sin of sodomy. That’s also a sin in the Church, but the LGBT community has taken it a step further by IDENTIFYING themselves with this behavior. They’re basically pinning sin onto their identity. They’re saying, if you don’t accept my sin, don’t accept me. And that’s how people are responding. They’re saying, if you identify with your sin, then I have to reject you, because I reject sin.
The RC church has never said ‘you can’t be gay’. Individual behavioral sins can be forgiven, but when you reject the notion that it’s wrong, and publicly identify yourself as inherently sinful, you have to expect people who are against sin.
To summarize, stealing is a sin, but if you steal and are truly sorry and are forgiven, we all move on. But when you say, I’m a thief, and you can’t change me, you have to accept me as a thief, people who reject the concept of stealing will reject you.
11:38 pm
trace_9r, that was AWESOME! I will use that when explaining the Church’s stance to people who don’t seem to get it. Very well said and very logical. God bless you!
“Now compare this to the sin of sodomy. That’s also a sin in the Church, but the LGBT community has taken it a step further by IDENTIFYING themselves with this behavior. They’re basically pinning sin onto their identity. They’re saying, if you don’t accept my sin, don’t accept me. And that’s how people are responding. They’re saying, if you identify with your sin, then I have to reject you, because I reject sin.
The RC church has never said ‘you can’t be gay’. Individual behavioral sins can be forgiven, but when you reject the notion that it’s wrong, and publicly identify yourself as inherently sinful, you have to expect people who are against sin.
To summarize, stealing is a sin, but if you steal and are truly sorry and are forgiven, we all move on. But when you say, I’m a thief, and you can’t change me, you have to accept me as a thief, people who reject the concept of stealing will reject you.”
11:45 pm
May Jesus Christ be praised, may He always be praised! Believe in Jesus and you shall have eternal life, but you must deny yourself and take up your cross.
I love the Lord, Jesus Christ, and you can do nothing about it.
11:46 pm
lisa: Priests do NOT take the vow. See citation:
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/priesthood/index.htm#4
trace: To bad they didn’t believe that when it came to child molestation. To borrow your thief metaphor, the thief repents his actions but keeps what was stolen.
11:49 pm
Lisa:
In New Jersey, the starting salary of a Catholic priest is between $70,000 and $75,000.
That counts a whole lot of extras counting rent, mortgage, maid, cook, $2,000/year of being a priest, about $18,000. Starting spending money, books fees, insurance paid, car insurance etc.
Vow of poverty? That’s more than what a teacher makes.
And stop with the whole “hahaha silly man.” It just makes it clear you have nothing to come back with and makes you the “silly.”
11:59 pm
@trace_9r
Guess what.
I AM a fornicator. And I AM proud. And the Catholic Church is not the one who has to forgive me. GOD is the one who forgives me. Not a sinful priest. Not a corrupt religious organization. GOD.
12:04 am
God’s Church = Roman Catholic Church. THE only Church. Priests have been given power to forgive sins from Jesus Himself.
Since, Livia, you seek forgiveness from God for your fornication, it seems that you recognize that you are a sinner. Well, welcome! We all are. But we find forgiveness and grace through the Church, and that leads us directly into the arms of Christ. But to stay in your sins and count on God to forgive you anyway is playing directly with fire. It will be your destruction. Period.
12:07 am
It is humorous to watch the atheists and angry mob here try to fight Catholics with Scripture and Tradition, things they know nothing about. This is really great fun! Please keep up the process of thoroughly embarrassing yourselves, because eventually a bulb may light and you’ll understand how very wrong you are. I did, years ago. It gives me the power to laugh when you say, “God is dead”. No, atheism is dead. Its been dead for 2010 years and counting. Good luck with that. LOL
12:12 am
@ Rick…congrats brother! Keep the faith and keep fighting the homosexual lobby! You have a special calling…use it!
12:30 am
I’ve gone to Catholic school for thirteen years and counting, theology required for all of them, and will I just say that most Catholics are completely off their collective nut. If I cared enough, I would defeat you with the power of LOGIC! but I see that it would just be a waste of time and energy.
The message of Jesus is love. Not just for the people who you like, who are in your comfort zone, who are exactly like you, people who don’t challenge you to think about what you believe.
Everyone.
12:50 am
Wow, who linked to CP to drive all the commenters this way? I am a gay man and a former devout Catholic. My personal journey in life, however, is not as relevant as some well-known Biblical quotes that might help both sides set a better tone here:
1) “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Civil marriage is a right under the domain of Caesar, the state. This is all same-sex couples are asking for – the right to be treated equally before the law. In addition, not everyone has the same religious beliefs. We all deserve to have our beliefs (or non-belief) respected – but respect is not the same as imposing our beliefs on others. The state is not forcing any religion to marry same-sex couples; in return, churches should not prevent the state from extending rights to all its citizens.
2) “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” The hatred I see for “the other side” here is astounding. I have many many friends and family members who are devout Catholics, and most of them know gays and lesbians. We are all brothers and sisters; we agree far more than we disagree. Are you gay or lesbian who doesn’t know many Catholics on a personal level? Are you a Catholic who doesn’t have a meaningful relationship with a gay or lesbian? Try reaching out (in person) sometime…it’s worth it.
1:53 am
‘No one comes out and says “I’m a fornicator and I’m proud!”’
Holy crap. You guys need to stop saying such hilarious things. Seriously, at least John Dias was boring.
Yo, Dennice. Being gay is not all about buttsex. I mean, besides the fact that that’s definitely NOT the way every LGBT person has sex all the time (could you imagine? talk about boring) Sometimes, we form meaningful relationships with people of the same sex, too! Oh, and sometimes we even do OTHER things! Like, everything else that normal people do! HORRORS.
But, I mean, that’s okay, you can keep minimizing us to the way that (you think) we have sex in order to dehumanize us and make us easier to hate on if that helps you sleep at night.
2:40 am
Reading this comment thread makes me ashamed to live in a country with you people. Seriously, I’m 21 years old and I know for a fact that I know more about tolerance, kindness, and love than most of you will ever grasp in your entire lives. And I’m an atheist, a so-called godless heathen with no moral compass. It makes me really sad that you people- the ones who are supposedly so enlightened and filled with this great understanding of “God’s love”- are perpetuating this horribly vitriolic cycle, continuing to push your views onto EVERYONE’S lives, and somehow you think you’re right. Superior. I don’t get it, and I’m glad I don’t get it. Anyways.
“Tell me one thing, how is it that for thousands of years, gays never demanded marriage until now? ”
That’s like asking “Why did black people never want equality until NOW, jeeze, I mean obviously before they liked being considered inhuman!” Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? Why would they have pushed for it any sooner? So they could be stoned? Tarred and feathered? Hanged? Thrown in jail for life? We have, as a country, finally progressed enough in the civil rights arena that we should be finally able to live up to something we promised over two hundred years ago-
“All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness”
If you all, collectively, can do nothing more than bicker hatefully, then please get out of the way of those of us who want to make this country better. For everyone.
3:58 am
So LISA The basis of your view point is that if something has been happening that way for thousands of years then that’s what makes it the way it should be, Am I correct? Murder/Slavery/War/Subjugation have, since the beginning of what U believe is existence been happening. Cain/Able? Incest? Adam, Eve, Cain & Able were the first correct?, then incest is the only possible answer to that beginning logically. I’m not here to argue your position, just trying to clarify. How many wives does your husband have? For you I offer this clip, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs
4:05 am
@Jack
Good post on the Love Thy Neighbor. Subjects like this definitely need a careful touch… I’m reading your first reference a bit differently. The ‘rendering to Caesar and God’ bit refers to what people have to give, i.e., money, time, etc. Jesus’ questioners were assuming everything had to go to one or the other; be owned by one or the other.
But we learn that we exit this world the way we came in, and God reclaims that which was his to begin with; namely, ourselves. All the knick-knacks in this world belong to the world and stay here.
I think the same-sex marriage question is more in line with ‘No Man can serve two masters’. Here we are being asked to make a choice, between subscribing to either the views of the state, or to the views of God. If the state directly contradicts God, we have to make a choice. In this case, you can’t render to both, because they are mutually exclusive; it is allowed by one and expressly prohibited by the other.
The U.S. offers every INDIVIDUAL rights, as it should. Marriage is not an INDIVIDUAL right, it is an institution. It is a social construct. No one is saying that people don’t have a right to be gay, it’s the institution and the consummation of the relationship that is considered sinful by the Church.
I agree with you about religious freedom as well, and our laws protect the forcing of any beliefs on anyone. It is ridiculous for someone to accuse the Church of forcing their beliefs on someone else. Not even tyrannical governments can force you to believe something against your will.
We are lucky to have our freedom and protection of our INDIVIDUAL rights while we live in this democracy, but we should all make it a priority to discover what God wants, because if we shun him for our own ideas or the world’s, he will condemn us. After all, it is the individual and his actions that God cares about.
I encourage you to return to the Church. You speak of reaching out. I agree 100%. I hope there is more discussion on threads; I think discussion is a good thing. I understand why people lose patience and lash out, but it just burns the bridge. It doesn’t help either side. You’re lucky to have loving family and friends, Catholic and secular.
God wants us all to reach out to him. Don’t be afraid to return to him. Your soul belongs to him, he knows us better than we know ourselves and he will not just tell you what you want to hear, he will always tell you the truth.
5:13 am
@Sam
I think you miss the point of the 2000 year-old reference… Catholics follow the teachings of an institution that has been intact for the last 2000 years because they believe in the authority and the authenticity of that organization and how it interprets the Bible, they don’t just look at an activity and say, “was it around 2000 years ago? Great!”
That Youtube clip was cute, but it’s target of ridicule was not Catholic, she was a fictional Dr. Laura, who is an orthodox Jew. I don’t know if many orthodox Jews would sit there and take it in real life if they were getting chided, but it’s not really relevant to this thread.
There’s a million different interpretations to the Bible. If you’re wondering how a certain church interprets it, you have to read the interpretation for yourself and decide if they’re hypocrites and have contradicted themselves, or if their interpretation makes sense.
The Catholic Church (which also wrote and compiled the Bible, by the way) has a standard interpretation of the bible called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can read it here:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
It’s kinda long, but it explains why, for example, murder is still wrong, but we no longer follow every last tenet of Mosaic Law spelled out in Leviticus.
Btw, there’s no other church that has a standard, official, agreed-upon interpretation of the bible except the Catholic Church.
7:03 am
trace_9r
Thank You!
It’s funny, I haven’t attacked anyone on this board, I only said what I believed and for that I’m called retard, stupid, misinformed, whatever; and further insults to the Catholic Church by those who seem to know very little about the differences between the protestant, evangelical, etc and the one true Holy Roman Catholic Church. Priests making salaries; well it’s because they work, be it running a school, counseling, etc. But it goes back to their order!
I have lived and worked in Laguna Beach for several years and before that, yes, I lived in West Hollywood. So I don’t hate gay people or look down on them what so ever. But I must say there has been an unfortunate change of attitude in SOME of the members of the community that is more hostile than ever; just on the basis of one not sharing the same beliefs. It’s sad!
They are almost as bad as if a Catholic walks into a Calvary Chapel! (just kidding, well in a way)
7:58 am
For those that are saying gays should be happy with civil unions….
Why don’t you settle for civil unions, and let gays choose marriage?
No? Suddenly not so equal now?
And those claiming the glories of ‘traditional’ marriage over the past couple of thousand years……
Traditional marriage included polygamy for all but the last 100 years or so (actually, still does in some countries).
Traditional marriage for the vast majority of history has been accepting of an arranged, loveless affair, often including the marriage of underage girls to men they barely knew (or sometimes didn’t know at all), with the women being scarcely better than property of the men.
And of course up until half a century ago traditional marriage didn’t include interracial marriage.
And it didn’t include marriage between religions.
8:04 am
Jesus lived in Judea when Rome controlled Judea.
The Romans were not exactly shy about their homosexuality. Particularly, ironically, in the armed forces.
Which Jesus would have seen plenty of. And, remember, He was omniscient, so there was no hiding homosexuality from him.
And yet He never ONCE felt the need to even mention homosexuality negatively.
The one time it’s mentioned he healed a Roman soldier’s ’special friend’ without passing judgement on that relationship.
Not once did Jesus advocate denying his healing powers to people because of any condition or ’sin’.
Yet the Archdiocese of DC feels they are in a position to withhold the modern day equivelant of healing (health care) because of one particular ’sin’, while ignoring things that Jesus did actually condemn, like divorce and adultery?
Wouldn’t it make more sense if they went back and stripped existing employees of health care (either spousal or just personal health care) if that employee had engaged in any sin, including divorce / remarriage or adultery?
Aren’t providing ‘recognition and encouragement’ of divorce / remarriage and adultery by providing health care benefits to those that engage in those sins against Catholic teachings?
8:08 am
“I have been celibate for eight years now, and they have been the best of my life. No more drugs. No more abuse. No more broken relationships. And, by the Grace of God, AIDS free to stay. My worst day as a celibate Catholic gay man is far better than my best day as a practicing homosexual, and I would not trade my life to go back. God bless the Church!”
That is a personal choice you made.
You don’t have the right to make that choice for other DC taxpayers.
I’m gay. I’m not celibate.
But I also am not involved in drugs. I have a very healthy and happy 20 year relationship with my partner.
I’m not making any effort to make your life more difficult by trying to deny you the right to marry a woman if you want. I’m not trying to deny you basics of life, like health care?
What makes you think you have the right to try to deny me the same rights?
In case you need a reminder, the sin of pride and boastful arrogance are mentioned by Christ repeatedly.
So as you hold yourself up as intrinsically better than all of us non-celibate gays, consider that.
8:16 am
Yes this is after all the Christian thing to do. I’m sure when Jesus was hanging on the cross he didn’t sit there thinking up exemptions to the list of people he was dying to save. The Catholic way of life has always been to make everyone suffer for the poor choices of a handful of people… it’s sick! I hope someday the Catholic church can stop being run by toddlers and start being led by great thinkers and fair-minded teachers. Until then, I will think of this as yet another reason why Government should stop relying on churches to provide charity service–because some churches cannot play nice in the sandbox and insist on kicking dirt in other people’s faces!
8:24 am
“Yes this is after all the Christian thing to do. I’m sure when Jesus was hanging on the cross he didn’t sit there thinking up exemptions to the list of people he was dying to save.”
And when he was alive and healing people in person I don’t recall a single instance of him refusing to provide Jesus’ health care plan (instant healing, no co-pay) to ANYONE, regardless of sin status.
In fact, didn’t he heal the Roman centurion’s ‘companion’, no questions asked? Most scholars believe that ‘companion’ was most likely the centurion’s gay lover.
I’d have more respect for the Archiocese’s position if they went in and stripped health benefits for any current or future employees that are divorced / remarried or have ever had sex outside of marriage. After all, those are very real sins. So giving those people health care is encouraging their sin, right?
9:56 am
Well, apparently the logic (according to trace_9r) is that you don’t deserve health care if you’re not ashamed of your sins. So if gay people are just ashamed of who they are, then it’s okay to give them health care! (Apparently all divorcees and fornicators are sufficiently ashamed??)
Also, I love when people sarcastically wonder why the famed “liberal tolerance” doesn’t extend to them when having their views inform the law (or societal acceptances in general) harms the lives of other people.
10:34 am
Lisa: “Catholic priests take a vow of poverty”
So why do all of the priests I have encountered drive such fancy cars? Or take trips to Atlantic City? Things like this and people who think along your lines are among the many reasons why I left the Catholic church immediately upon reaching 18.
11:10 am
Here’s one of the biggest problems I have with this: it sets a precedent. Now the Southern Baptist Convention can follow suit if they so choose. Now the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church can follow suit if they so choose. Etc etc.
Not good. Not good at all.
12:48 pm
@ Lisa
These are your words:
“Fine, keep aborting your babies and having same sex relationships; you’re bound to go extinct eventually just by natural selection!”
Later, you wrote:
“It’s funny, I haven’t attacked anyone on this board, I only said what I believed.”
Perhaps you might consider that implying the inevitable extinction of a large group of people might be perceived as an attack, and therefore not likely to attract warm, fuzzy, friendly kind of responses. Imagine if Jesus Christ had said, “Fine! You’ll all go extinct, anyway…”
Do you think you’d follow a god like that? Do you think, when you use words like that, that people will see Christ in you? I guess I’m curious.
You said:
“But I must say there has been an unfortunate change of attitude in SOME of the members of the community that is more hostile than ever; just on the basis of one not sharing the same beliefs. It’s sad!”
Which community were you talking about? Because expressing satisfaction at the extinction of a group of people who have different beliefs than you seems, well, hostile.
I’m not saying this to attack you. I’m saying this to protect the image of Jesus Christ. It’s too bad that hate is the perception people have of His church. I bet that if you spent a bit of time prayerfully considering your words, you would begin to understand why people reacted the way that they did to you. I would like to humbly submit to you that you can do better.
12:59 pm
In this economy, the Catholic Church is CREATING more uninsured people? Brilliant.
Good thing they operate clinics for the uninsured. If you work for Catholic Charities, you can send your spouse to one of their clinics. How handy! What a great benefit!
Ugh.
1:41 pm
Former Atheist: “It is humorous to watch the atheists and angry mob here try to fight Catholics with Scripture and Tradition, things they know nothing about.”
What is more funny is that all that scripture and tradition is just a whole bunch of meaningless human-constructed ideas. There is nothing inherently bad about being gay. People just make up reasons for why it is bad, but the key to remember is that it is all a bunch of made up crap.
1:45 pm
I meant ARE just a whole bunch of meaningless human-constructed ideas, not IS. Whoops, I need to proof next time. Still, my point stands.
4:03 pm
Talk about all the HATE. I am suppose to accept the lifstyle of gays but how come they dont have to accept jesus christ as their savior…what right does anybody have to tell me what I have to accept or not accept?
you can be gay I dont care one single bit, however I dont have to accept or encourage this lifstyle.
I like how people feel like their being open minded by accepting gays but then in the same breath say these awful things about catholics….AMAZING!!!
4:46 pm
…because accepting someone’s lifestyle is not equivalent to accepting jesus christ as their savior. It imposes nothing upon you to simply “accept” someones lifestyle. To accept that, you don’t actually have to do anything at all. It imposes upon someone else’s life to force that person to accept a religion in which he or she does not believe. Actually, it isn’t amazing that people say awful things about the Church and not about gay people. The Church actively tries to exclude certain groups of people. They go out of their way to marginalize women and the gay community. That, to me at least, is quite AMAZING.
5:03 pm
excuse me trace, but transpeople are not necessarily gay. Please do not call us gay. We are trans but we are also straight, bisexual, pansexual, gay, or celibate. Just like ‘normal’ people, oh yes, like YOU.
5:25 pm
The Catholic Church is responsible for the death of millions because it uses its influence on African populations to prevent the use of condoms, which has thus propagated the HIV virus to an entire generation of Africans. The Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths of an ENTIRE GENERATION. Mao and Stalin’s crimes have less to do with atheism than with their own psychopathy.
5:26 pm
being GAY is not a fucking lifestyle.
6:01 pm
Nice try, but the U.S. government and planned parenthood are directly responsible for the murder and dismemberment of over 50 million people since the 1970s. The Catholic Church has never murdered anyone. Mao and Stalin were atheists, as was Hitler, since one cannot be a Christian or even a very good Viking Pagan as he claimed to be, and murder that many people. Only atheists have been mass murderers throughout history. Atheism is dead. Stop poking its body and move on.
6:08 pm
The whole “trans” thing is very sad. People go on medication and go through therapy when they want to mutilate their bodies, unless they’re “trans”, in which case they now can receive tax dollars to either lop off their penises or have fake ones attached.
Sad. Its so very sad because its so very wrong. These people need help, not encouragement to destroy themselves. It is also a sad fact that nearly everyone who undergoes “reassignment” still never fully becomes the opposite sex, and it never solves their problems. The vast majority end up on drugs or committing suicide.
Lastly, us homosexuals are called to chastity the same way heterosexuals are. No sex outside of marriage, and marriage is only between one man and one woman for obvious reasons (best environment for children, they actually can procreate, men and women are compatible physically, etc). Since I am not going to have sex with women, I simply do not have it at all. And let me tell you, those five or so minutes of painful and dirty “rectum cleaning” that I used to participate in are not worth either the lifetime of disease and pain, nor eternal damnation. Period.
6:11 pm
To the lewd person who calls everyone the “r” word, being a practicing homosexual is a lifestyle choice. One can choose not to have sex just as sure as one can choose not to take a nap, have an extra dessert, or workout. Unlike breathing, sex is a matter of choice. Homosexual sex, involving the plunging of a man’s penis into another man’s rectum, or two women awkwardly mimicking sex with plastic penises attached to their mons pubises neither qualifies as “sexual intercourse” nor is healthy or moral.
6:51 pm
fuck you and your R word bullshit. Refusing to have sex is a lifestyle choice, not the other way around. All you moralizing sex-hating religious losers need to get into the 21st century or put a bullet in your fucking head.
6:58 pm
I won’t go into my personal religious beliefs nor my sexual preferences — they aren’t relevant to the discussion. I will limit my comments to discussion of the law, as laid down by the US Supreme Court.
Lisa,
“You have the exact same rights under civil unions, why can’t you except that?”
Sadly, this is not true, nor will it ever be, nor CAN it ever be.
In order for them to even come close to being the same, every single law at every level would have to be re-written to acknowledge that it applied to both marriages/married people AND civil unions (and “civilly unionized” people?)
Unfortunately, this still would not make them equal. There was this case a few years ago (Brown v Board of Education 1954, to be exact) where the Supreme Court ruled that “separate but equal” is a fallacy, that “separate” is not and cannot be made “equal.”
trace_r,
“The U.S. offers every INDIVIDUAL rights, as it should. Marriage is not an INDIVIDUAL right, it is an institution.”
Again I must disagree, and again the US Supreme Court supports my position. Loving v Virginia, 1967, declared that marriage is a Constitutionally-protected right.
Folks, no one is saying that the Catholic Church (or any other church) should be required to perform weddings. A wedding is a service, either religious or civil, in which a relationship is registered with and acknowledged by the civil authority. After the wedding, the relationship is commonly referred to as a marriage, and places certain privileges and responsibilities on each member.
Because the Catholic Church is applying its new policy to EVERYONE, they technically are not discriminating. Yes, their reason for the practice is discriminatory, but their implementation of it is not.
7:02 pm
Larson, et al,
“The Catholic Church has never murdered anyone.”
I suppose that depends on your definition of “murder.” How do you categorize the people killed during the Crusades? Or by the Inquisition? Or by the Church’s refusal to condemn the Germans during their “racial cleansing” of the last century?
7:16 pm
“Nice try, but the U.S. government and planned parenthood are directly responsible for the murder and dismemberment of over 50 million people since the 1970s.”
An interesting perspective, if factually inaccurate.
I presume you are referring to Roe v Wade, which struck down a Texas statute forbidding abortion?
Without going into the debate of what makes someone a “person,” the people that you refer to were not slain by any single entity. Each one was the result of decisions made by two individuals — the pregnant mother, and the doctor performing the procedure (and his assisting staff, if any).
Roe v Wade did NOT say, “It’s okay for someone to have an abortion!” What it DID say is, “The government does not have the right to enforce this particular Texas statute, as it is written.”
Rather than railing at the government for “murdering and dismembering” people, your comments would be more accurately reserved for those people who have actively participated in an abortion.
But before you do, I would like to ask that you contemplate such statements as, “Judge not, lest ye be judged,” and “Before you judge another person, walk a mile in his shoes.”
7:52 pm
People using their chosen religious lifestyles to harm others? Wow, who would have imagined it.
8:16 pm
I love how those with little knowledge of Scripture love to toss “judge not” around as if they understand what that actually means, which is “condemn not”. Jesus allowed us to judge actions all day long, because that is how we live our lives. If He meant not to judge any actions, then none of the rest of His words from that selection would make any sense. Taking one sentence out of context in an entire library of work (the Bible) is a poor way to prop up one’s weak defense.
And for mister angry little person threatening to kill people, nice try. Your tactics are tired and unpopular. The fact remains that homosexual behavior is most certainly a choice, no different than your choice to be an unbalanced and violent individual. Such tactics are hardly surprising from the atheist lot. Atheism is dead. Seek help and medication.
8:18 pm
Thought for Lisa
March 2nd, 2010
12:48 pm wrote: I’m not saying this to attack you. I’m saying this to protect the image of Jesus Christ. It’s too bad that hate is the perception people have of His church. I bet that if you spent a bit of time prayerfully considering your words, you would begin to understand why people reacted the way that they did to you. I would like to humbly submit to you that you can do better.
You were correct, I am sorry for coming across as if I expressed a hope for certain people’s extinction. I should have expressed myself more clearly to have said that I would like to see the extinction of abortion, and being as if those that abort babies eventually will lead to more pro-life babies being born and they grow up to be pro-life themselves, hence no more abortions.
I said that out of anger at the way some people flaunt being proud that they aborted their child, that’s heartbreaking to hear. Now since homosexuals cannot naturally reproduce (notice I did not say they cannot be loving in caring for children) I tied that into the same reasoning behind my views on abortion and I should not have.
Anyways, I will not apologize for believing with what the Catholic Church, along with the Bible says about homosexual relationships. I do not doubt that there is not a real love for each other in those relationships or that they are bad people; I just believe it is not how you were created to be when it comes to sexual unions.
What I meant about SOME people in those groups have become hostile, I just meant that I live and work and have lived and worked in two of the most prominent gay communities in California outside of San Francisco, I’m the minority in my community and have no problem being that. I choose to live here and love my neighbors. It’s just that I never experienced this kind of, “oh, you’re a Catholic and a hetero, too? Get away, you bitch, you retard, etc” until recently and it seems like it just gets worse, and honestly I wish I could make it better, but about all I can do is leave it in God’s hands and pray that he comes into the hearts of others.
I believe marriage is a sacrament. Just because I believe it is meant to be between one man and one woman, does not mean I’m hateful and un-Christ-like. Yet, I’m sorry if that’s how anyone interprets it in that way.
Thank you for protecting the image of Christ.
8:19 pm
Its okay, MisterD, he seems to be out of his mind. Mister “r” word loves to use profanity and violence to try and convince others of his view. Nevermind that it will never work.
Funny thing about us “sex hater”. Statistically, we have more sex than anyone, and it is far more satisfying without your ridiculous barriers, sheaths, diseases, and violence. We have sex as God intended it. You have “sex” as satan intended…violent, unsatisfying, and awful. Wake up, my friend, its not too late.
8:40 pm
MisterB really shows his ignorance in his posts. Pius XII, a future saint, saved more Jews during WWII than all of the Allies combined. Especially considering that famous atheist, Uncle Joe Stalin (an ally for those who don’t know better) slaughtered far more than he ever liberated. Pius XII was and is a saint, and those who get their history from an obscure and very old theater production are the only ones who think differently. Jewish, Catholic, and secular scholars have all concluded that Pius XII was heroic during the war in his protection of the Jews. Nice try, but you lose.
Aren’t I always warning you not to get your religion from the Discovery Channel? The Inquisition, though not something to be proud of, really didn’t give it everything they had. The Vatican has opened up meticulous records kept over the 400 years of the Inquisition’s heyday and in Spain and Portugal perhaps 2,000-3,000 were killed.
How about the Crusades? In the course of two centuries perhaps one or two million died, and let us remember these were defensive wars. A very political religion burst out of the Arabian Peninsula with the express intention of taking over the world, a hope still warmly cherished by many Muslims. Christian lands were conquered and Christians killed. Remember that the Middle East was solidly Christian at the time. Around 1000 AD, Caliph Hakim of Cairo killed the entire Christian population of Jerusalem, burned every Christian shrine in the Holy Land, and hacked the tomb of Christ to pieces. Imagine what would happen in today if a Christian tried to destroy the Ka’aba Mecca! For us the Tomb of Christ is comparable to the Ka’aba, the central shrine of Islam.
Those assaults started the Crusades. If not for the Crusades, the slaughter of Christians would have continued unabated, until the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, the Prince of Peace, were either dead or converted to the banners of the armies of Islam.
Apparently, MisterB would rather see the wholesale slaughter of Christians in order to be enslaved and executed by homosexual-hating Muslim extremists. A rather poor choice, eh, MisterB?
8:42 pm
Yeah, but those darn religious started all wars! No, not really.
Atheist Communists are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism. Let us remember that both Communism and Nazism are socialist systems that deny the claims of God on humanity. The state is supreme, not God. Communism has killed about 100,000,000 (One hundred million) for political reasons. We’re not talking war here, just political ideology. Nazism “only” killed 25,000,000 (twenty five million) for political reasons, 6 million of them being Jews. This does not include the 40,000,000 killed as a result of combat in the Second World War.
So, take away the pope, ten million dead. Take away God, two hundred million dead, counting war. There are a lot more wars and religions we could go into, but enough is enough. I think you get the picture. Still, it is worth mentioning a religion that incorporates war as a divine mandate, such as Islam. Communism has been responsible for the deaths of maybe 100 million people. Bill Warner of the Center for the Study of Political Islam says, “Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1,400 years for the glory of political Islam.” If he is correct, Hitler comes in third, a mere piker, a veritable camp fire girl.
Atheism is dead, to quote another poster here. And good riddance!
8:44 pm
I say this with all due respect, but FUCK THE CHILD-RAPE CULT OF ROME. IN THE ASS. WITH A CRUCIFIX.
Thank you for listening.
8:48 pm
Yup, these people really are doing Christ’s work on Earth eh?
8:52 pm
Oh, and to all those here who blame atheism for Stalin, did you conveniently forget that he was a Seminarian during his formative years in Georgia?
9:00 pm
Excuse me, but you did say Stalin WAS a seminarian. Doesn’t that show he rejected the churches teaching?
9:00 pm
Many atheists were once religious. Does that disqualify them from being atheists? Does one have to be BORN atheist to be atheist? No, of course not, because practically no one would qualify as such. Of course Stalin tried religion, but in his course of recklessly murdering millions and openly promoting atheism, that would not make him much of a Christian, would it?
So which is it? Once religious, always religious despite promoting and acting atheist? Or are you trying really hard to have it both ways, knowing that you have no argument here?
Homosexual sex is destructive and immoral. Atheism is an unintelligent and arrogant attempt to convince oneself of being in control and knowing it all. Unfortunately, famous atheists such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others killed upwards of 94 million. Not much of a track record there.
You lose on this. Try reading and listening for a while. You might learn something that is not on youtube or Discovery.
9:02 pm
Bill Donohue’s withered conscience
I say this with all due respect, but FUCK THE CHILD-RAPE CULT OF ROME. IN THE ASS. WITH A CRUCIFIX.
Thank you for listening.
And you expect respect from that statement?!
9:10 pm
Lisa, God bless you. You are providing excellent witness in the face of violence and ignorance. Bravo! We are all here to present the Lord and His Church as it is, not as many on here would like. If we get chippy here and there, it is because we love Jesus Christ and His Church. I certainly do, and I will defend both with my life if necessary.
9:20 pm
lisa, that guy who threatened you and spouted unintelligent threats against you is in dire need of prayer for conversion. I think he was probably wronged in some way, and he certainly needs help and prayer. If there was someone in need of God, he certainly is one. Not unlike any of the rest of us, he needs love apparently. The only love that is true love is from Jesus Christ. God is love. Some links were provided to the Vatican website. I suggest that those at odds with Church teaching at least inform themselves by reading what the Church actually teaches. You might find that not only does God love you, but you might love Him back to. At the end of the day, that is what He asks of us. To love Him and each other. But His love is for us, not our sins. And our love for each other is for each other, not each of our sins. I hate sin. I hate my sins and the sins of others. But I love myself just as sure as I love the guy who threatened to “put a bullet in my head”. His sinful behavior is what is to be rejected. The same holds true for robbers, fornicators, and murderers.
9:34 pm
trace_9r:
“God wants us all to reach out to him. Don’t be afraid to return to him.”
Yes, and you should look deep within your dark soul and do exactly that. You speak His name a lot, but know Him not.
9:42 pm
On the contrary, Jeff, he speaks the Word quite brilliantly. You, however, seem to be like those who opposed St. Paul on his journeys. What in trace-9r’s treatise was not speaking the Word? What say you?
9:48 pm
So turning back to the original topic. How cool is it that the Catholic Church is not going to be providing healthcare to the spouses and children of its employees! I am super excited to pay for those emergency room visits when their babies, who won’t get any prenatal care, get sick. But it will all be the fault of those sinning homosexuals, right?
Really, my opinion of the Catholic Church couldn’t get any lower.
9:49 pm
Wow. I’ve never seen so many Catholics with such a bizarre understanding of the history of the late Roman Empire and the rise of Christianity. Please tell me you didn’t go to Catholic schools.
Especially this gem:
“The Romans wanted to legalize all sorts of homosexual behavior, and the Christians protested against it. The Romans put the Christians to death in all sorts of unique and terrible ways in order to protect their homosexual interests. Funny thing about that, it didn’t work. We just kept coming back until the entire empire converted.”
But getting back to DC and current events, one poster said, “The net result is, in fact, MORE PROGRESSIVE, than what existed previously.”
The diocese had a choice. They could have done what they’ve OR they could have done what other dioceses have done under similar circumstances: open their benefits to include any member of the employee’s household. That would include spouses, domestic partners, parents, grandparents, and other dependent adults. THAT is a more progressive solution. THAT is a more CATHOLIC solution.
Of course, it doesn’t leave the Church in a position to blame the gays, and we all know how important that has become to the hierarchy.
9:52 pm
Nope. The Catholic Church couldn’t do any better! They are sticking up for their beliefs, which are correct, and if that means sacrificing themselves, so be it. That is how we live, and why no empire in history could destroy us. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church. That does not mean we won’t take our lumps. The martyrs will attest to that.
This IS the fault of the DC government, because in their bigoted way, they could not allow the Church to have a religious exemption. This is a slippery slope, of course, and it will come back to bite those who institute it, as we have seen throughout history. So, the blame is squarely on the shoulders of homosexual bigots in the DC council, and not the Church which remains consistent in Her views. She is my mother and my love, and She is most certainly correct in this.
9:55 pm
At least this way, the Church will stop providing spousal benefits to previously divorced employees. Well, new ones, that is. They’ll still provide benefits to the previously divorced employees they already have…
10:01 pm
BobM, there is no such thing as divorce in the Church. If someone was never married to begin with (i.e., the marriage was null) then it can seem that way, but it is not so. Unfortunately, you are not alone in your confusion/misunderstanding of the situation. For more information, search the Vatican. But the Church is consistent in teaching on this.
Also, I would like to see the D.C. Archdiocese consistently deny practicing homosexuals and fornicators (2nd marriages, cohabs, etc), pro-abortion politicians, and the like Holy Communion. Its time to tighten up our practices in the face of the enemy.
10:13 pm
This isn’t the United States of Jesus. So who gives a crap what the bible says. Take your bible and shove it – deep. Marriage is a civil matter.
10:17 pm
It seems your all-powerful god and his boy-offspring were powerless to prevent the DC city council from allowing same-sex marraige. Some deity.
Fuck your god in the ass. With a spoon. Slowly.
10:22 pm
“BobM, there is no such thing as divorce in the Church”
I think you meant to direct that at me. And you make my point. The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce BUT Catholic Charities most certainly DOES recognize the divorces and remarriages of its employees. It has to. It’s the law.
They also provide spousal benefits to inter-religious marriages, purely civil marriages, entirely non-Christian marriages, etc.
10:26 pm
Mr. Paul Mith,
I feel it necessary to point out that suggestions of violence and pitiable insults hardly constitute an argument. But then again, when one is so blatantly wrong, and obstinately so, it is hardly surprising that one would stoop to such a level. Also, myth is spelled with a “y”, but that is a digression on my part.
Anyhoo, marriage is not a civil matter but rather an ancient institution that has a modern-day civil component that does not define it. In other words, the civil reflects the religious meaning, and rightfully so. In strictly secular terms, keeping marriage between one man and one woman for life is good for the couple, children, and society as a whole. Redefining it as “other” leads to the breakdown of society. It should come as no surprise that many of those who are so hatefully slandering the Church probably come from broken families. It is a sad reality.
As for the homosexual lobbyists who passed this law, we firmly believe that greater good will come from it. Namely, this will probably include shining a light on just how destructive and sad homosexual “relationships” are, and how they offer nothing to either the partners nor society as a whole.
While you suggest I should “shove my Bible”, I suggest rather that you should read it and seek spiritual guidance, because you are on the path to destruction. God loves you, even if you don’t love Him back. That is your choice to live for all of time in separation from love. But that is not a very wise choice, is it?
10:28 pm
The Virgin Mary, my ass. That whore got away with the biggest lie in history. Slut.
10:32 pm
Bob, you need to update what you know about marriage:
1. Why does the church teach that marriage is a sacrament?
The sacraments make Christ present in our midst. Like the other sacraments, marriage is not just for the good of individuals, or the couple, but for the community as a whole. The Catholic Church teaches that marriage between two baptized persons is a sacrament. The Old Testament prophets saw the marriage of a man and woman as a symbol of the covenant relationship between God and his people. The permanent and exclusive union between husband and wife mirrors the mutual commitment between God and his people. The Letter to the Ephesians says that this union is a symbol of the relationship between Christ and the Church.
2. Do Catholics ever validly enter into non-sacramental marriages?
Yes. Marriages between Catholics and non-Christians, while they may still be valid in the eyes of the Church, are non-sacramental. With permission, a priest or deacon may witness such marriages.
3. What is the difference between a valid and an invalid Catholic marriage?
Just as individual states have certain requirements for civil marriage (e.g., a marriage license, blood tests), the Catholic Church also has requirements before Catholics can be considered validly married in the eyes of the Church. A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements: (1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they freely exchange their consent; (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and (4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister. Exceptions to the last requirement must be approved by church authority.
4. If a Catholic wants to marry a non-Catholic, how can they assure that the marriage is recognized by the Church?
In addition to meeting the criteria for a valid Catholic marriage (see question #3), the Catholic must seek permission from the local bishop to marry a non-Catholic. If the person is a non-Catholic Christian, this permission is called a “permission to enter into a mixed marriage.” If the person is a non-Christian, the permission is called a “dispensation from disparity of cult.” Those helping to prepare the couple for marriage can assist with the permission process.
5. Why does a Catholic wedding have to take place in a church?
For Catholics, marriage is not just a social or family event, but a church event. For this reason, the Church prefers that marriages between Catholics, or between Catholics and other Christians, be celebrated in the parish church of one of the spouses. Only the local bishop can permit a marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place.
6. If a Catholic wishes to marry in a place outside the Catholic church, how can he or she be sure that the marriage is recognized by the Catholic Church as valid?
The local bishop can permit a wedding in another church, or in another suitable place, for a sufficient reason. For example, a Catholic seeks to marry a Baptist whose father is the pastor of the local Baptist church. The father wants to officiate at the wedding. In these circumstances, the bishop could permit the couple to marry in the Baptist church. The permission in these instances is called a “dispensation from canonical form.”
7. If two Catholics or a Catholic and non-Catholic are married invalidly in the eyes of the church, what should they do about it?
They should approach their pastor to try to resolve the situation.
10:37 pm
Here, BobN, some info on marriage taken from an online FAQ. This should help your misunderstanding:
2. Do Catholics ever validly enter into non-sacramental marriages?
Yes. Marriages between Catholics and non-Christians, while they may still be valid in the eyes of the Church, are non-sacramental. With permission, a priest or deacon may witness such marriages.
3. What is the difference between a valid and an invalid Catholic marriage?
Just as individual states have certain requirements for civil marriage (e.g., a marriage license, blood tests), the Catholic Church also has requirements before Catholics can be considered validly married in the eyes of the Church. A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements: (1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they freely exchange their consent; (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and (4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister. Exceptions to the last requirement must be approved by church authority.
5. Why does a Catholic wedding have to take place in a church?
For Catholics, marriage is not just a social or family event, but a church event. For this reason, the Church prefers that marriages between Catholics, or between Catholics and other Christians, be celebrated in the parish church of one of the spouses. Only the local bishop can permit a marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place.
6. If a Catholic wishes to marry in a place outside the Catholic church, how can he or she be sure that the marriage is recognized by the Catholic Church as valid?
The local bishop can permit a wedding in another church, or in another suitable place, for a sufficient reason. For example, a Catholic seeks to marry a Baptist whose father is the pastor of the local Baptist church. The father wants to officiate at the wedding. In these circumstances, the bishop could permit the couple to marry in the Baptist church. The permission in these instances is called a “dispensation from canonical form.”
10:38 pm
Ah, poor Paulie, still throwing a little tantrum. If you want people to get behind your argument, you’ll have to make a little more sense.
10:42 pm
Poor Dawkinz, still believing in the imaginary Old Man Up in the Sky. And you say I need to make more sense.
Pwned!
10:47 pm
this “paul” person is really pretty bad at arguing. Not only has he not made a single coherent point, but his insults are even poorly-worded and nonsensical. I think we can stick a fork in him…he’s done! LOL
10:47 pm
I think the catholics on this post are just upset that they are powerless to stop this inevitable social change, and that their illusion of a powerful, universal church guided by a powerful, univeral god has been exposed as a fraud.
Oh well. We all grow up sooner or later and learn there really ISN’T a Santa Claus.
Yahweh: what a fucking pitiful joke.
10:48 pm
You are now MY bitch, Addy. Thanks for playing.
10:51 pm
“Here, BobN, some info on marriage taken from an online FAQ. This should help your misunderstanding:”
Sigh. You just don’t get it, probably because you don’t WANT to get it.
Regardless of Catholic theology, Catholic Charities, as an employer, MUST obey the laws of the state. In providing spousal insurance coverage, it MUST recognize the marriages and divorces and remarriages of its employees.
There is no further proof needed of this fact than the diocese’s decision we’re discussing. CC stopped ALL future coverage of ANY new marriages because it cannot legally distinguish one type of marriage from another.
10:51 pm
Its always funny to argue with poorly-formed atheists…atheist wannabe’s I call them. They usually fall into the ol’ “insults and avoid” tactic, which means they’ve run out of constructive ideas. The salient point is that they cannot disprove God nor get rid of Him no matter how hard they try. Denying His existence is about as effective as denying gravity, and makes about as much sense. But alas, when arguing with a brick wall, its best just to turn around.
You can keep insulting God and Christians, Paul, but at least do so in a new and creative manner. Your rather base insults are embarrassing. But, in a way, once you run out of them, you may find God and change your heart. I’ll pray for your conversion, because I know you’ll need those prayers on your death bed.
May God have mercy on you Paul. May He bless you with an open heart, mind, and love of the Truth. May your stony heart be melted and may you come to love Jesus with all of your heart, soul, and strength.
10:54 pm
No BobN, we DON’T have to obey the laws if they violate our consciences. That is our right as human beings. As soon as the U.S. no longer allows us to have freedom of conscience and religion, we will openly break the law.
So, no, we don’t have to live by laws that violate our beliefs. Such laws are what the founders fought against, and what the Christians of ancient times fought against as well. The state holds nothing over God. We are loyal to God over the state. That shouldn’t surprise you.
You can talk all day about laws and legality, but when the laws are UNJUST, such as abortion and homosexual marriage, we will resist, dissent, and openly fight.
10:59 pm
Yes, that did not make any sense at all, Paul. You are either completely ignorant of history, or you are simply changing it on purpose. The Church has always been marginalized and persecuted by people like you. That is as old as the Church itself.
But the Church never dies. It never will, and there is nothing you nor anyone else in the world can do about it. You can rape us, beat us, burn us, and kill us, but the Church never dies. We’ve been through the worst that evil can offer, and we still come back. We’ll likely go through it again, but it does not shake our faith, it bolsters it. That is what you don’t understand. The more you insult us, the more we love you. The more you beat us and murder us, the more we love you, and the more we win. We always win, because we are with God.
Its never too late for you.
10:59 pm
Its always funny to argue with poorly-formed christians…christian wannabe’s I call them. They usually fall into the ol’ “insults and avoid” tactic, which means they’ve run out of constructive ideas. The salient point is that they cannot prove god no matter how hard they try. Affiriming god’s existence is about as effective as affirming the easter bunny, and makes about as much sense. But alas, when arguing with a brick wall, its best just to turn around.
You can keep insulting rational-thinking people, Dawkinz, but at least do so in a new and creative manner. Your rather base insults are embarrassing. But, in a way, once you run out of them, you may find that believing in some silly deity is a waste of time.
Save your prayers for some fool who believes in your myths, you arrogant prick.
11:02 pm
From AP:
“The Supreme Court on Tuesday refused to block the District of Columbia’s gay marriage law, freeing the city to issue its first marriage licenses to same-sex couples the following day.”
Poor catholics: you lose again.
11:04 pm
I guess Bishop Whats-his-hoozy will have to console himself on this political loss that underscores his irrelenancy in the real world by licking some delicious altar boys.
11:05 pm
MisterD:
“I love how those with little knowledge of Scripture love to toss “judge not” around as if they understand what that actually means, which is “condemn not”.”
Actually, that was precisely how I meant it — asking that people try not to condemn those who have had or given abortions… or, to get back to the original topic, those who practice a different lifestyle.
In all seriousness, which of the two approaches do you think is going to get better results with someone considering having an abortion:
Option 1: “If you do it, you’ll be committing murder, and you’ll burn in Hell unless you turn to God and beg for forgiveness and follow His laws!” (usually with the implication that this statement applies to God and His laws as defined by the speaker)
Option 2: “Hey, I can tell you’re having a really rough time with this. What can I do to help you out?”
I have yet to see a case where the old adage about catching more flies with honey than vinegar can’t be applied. If we were to take the second approach and help the person work through their distress, doesn’t that make a better impression about Christianity than metaphorically beating them over the head with a Bible?
11:08 pm
“we will openly break the law”
So, does this mean you finally get my point that employment law requires the Church to recognize the civil marriages and divorces of its employees?
Now, I don’t know how you were raised, but back in grammar school, Sister John Carroll would have encouraged us to apologize for being so pig-headed and wrong.
11:16 pm
On March 4, gay citizens in DC will be able to be legally married, just like their straight counterparts. And the catholic church with their silly god can do nothing to stop it. Gay couples will have marriage licenses just like their straight counterparts. And the catholic church with their silly god can do nothing to stop it. And gay couples will celebrate their nuptials on their honeymoons in much the same manner as their straight counterparts. And the catholic church with their silly god can do nothing to stop it.
It makes me smile: it’s fun to win, but it’s more fun to see the diocese lose.
11:19 pm
LOL, gay “marriage” (which doesn’t exist) as a law is not a defeat. It is a loss for those who engage in such destructive and immoral behavior. The same holds true for abortion. We will continue to reject both sins and never stop rejecting them. And our numbers are growing. According to the latest polls, we are legion.
These silly laws don’t fret us much. Especially because laws are finite, and easily overturned. This will not last, and we’re not going away. We represent far more than the mere 1% of the population made up of homosexuals. No worries on our end!
11:21 pm
hey paulie, I said a Hail Mary for you, that you would drop your childish act, reject your homosexual lifestyle, and embrace the Church. And guess what? You don’t even have to believe in God to receive my prayers. God believes in you, as do I.
Go ahead, call me arrogant too. I don’t mind. Call me whatever you like. May God have mercy on you and bless you with a clear mind and open heart. May you become loving, instead of cold and violent. May you come to believe, instead of childishly rejecting.
11:21 pm
“According to the latest polls, we are Legion.”
Legion, the demon? Yes, you are!
11:23 pm
I second that, addy! Paul doesn’t bother me or any Christian on here. His act is old and tired. He is the same old “angry young man” from every generation. I’ll pray for his conversion as well. I’ll also pray that God gives him a real powerful one at that.
11:23 pm
Oh, addy, your prayers to your cult god are charming, like watching primitives worshipping a pile of goat dung, and equally pointless.
11:24 pm
Uh oh, Paul, you BELIEVE in supernatural beings? (i.e., demons). So much for your atheism…
We all knew that about you anyway. Its not a surprise. But it is a door to faith, and it is great that you have faith. Now we just need to form it.
11:26 pm
Yeah, I saw that too, David. It seems our friend does believe after all. He is just angry with God. It is sad, but not hopeless. Dear Paul will find God in time, and God will find him. All he has to do is have an open mind.
Unfortunately, the homosexual lobby has closed it. But not forever.
11:28 pm
And David, pray for my conversion all you want: there’s no one “up there” to hear it. It’s just voices in your head, dude.
Sorry, you lost this battle. The children and granchildren of the next generations will learn that there is nothing wrong with being gay. But they will think of you the same way we today think of George Wallace standing in the doorway of the univeristy: as an angry old man trying to stop a inevitability that his own pride and hatred woldn’t allow him to accept.
Sorry, boys. History is rolling over you. And that’s a very good thing.
11:29 pm
Nope, don’t beileive in demons, either, losers. Just wanted to point out your really bad choice of expressions.
11:34 pm
Actually, no. You’re wrong yet again, Paulie. Homosexuality was around in ancient times, as was rejected by the majority of society then as it is now, and ever shall be. The Bible speaks out against it, just as sure as we do, and our children. Funny thing about kids…they grow up and they overwhelmingly become more conservative and religious in our circles, and in yours too. Yesterday’s hippies are today’s republicans and Christians.
Homosexual immorality, and the majority that opposes it, are not new. Only to you are they new. And no, we won’t “lose”. We have already won.
We won 2010 years ago, Paul. You must have missed that memo. LOL
11:35 pm
Gotta go to bed now, so a good-night wish for Addy and David: shove some Communion wafers up your asses and fart on your savior.
11:52 pm
Well Paul Mith, at this point I doubt you’ll ever stand the hope of ever meeting God; but there is someone you will meet for all eternity and he’s not “up there”
What’s your obsession with other people’s asses? Is it because you head is so far up your own?
11:58 pm
Wow that paul guy is a huge bigot. His rhetoric is like the KKK and neo-Nazis. Scary stuff on this newspaper website! Kudos to those who kept a level head dealing with someone like him.
12:37 am
Love your article, Amanda. Just put up a piece on the topic on my blog. Would love it if you (and the rest of you as well, of course) stopped by sometime to check it out. thanks.
“On Wednesday, March 3rd, loving couples in DC will be able to be married regardless of their genitalia. As a result, DC employees of Catholic Charities learned that spouses will no longer be covered by company’s new health plan.
Let’s break this down, shall we?”
http://democratdeal.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-difference-day-makes-in-dc-for.html
12:40 am
@23 Lisa wrote:
“Roman Catholic priest DO take a vow of poverty!”
Lisa, most don’t. I evaluate people wishing to enter priesthood and religious life. I am thoroughly aware of the commitments required. Religious orders (nuns, brothers and ordained male religious) make vows of Chastity, Celibacy, Obedience and Poverty. So if a priest is a member of a religious order, he makes a vow of Poverty. He turns over any income to his local religious community, (the people he lives with), and he is supported by an allowance from the community.
Diocesan priests do not make vows. They promise obedience to the their bishop and they make a promise of celibacy. They do not promise Poverty. They receive a regular paycheck. They can keep that money, they can keep gifts, money they inherit and they can keep, save and invest what they earn. Many own property and as they get older, many have decent investment portfolios. I know priests who own homes, condos, vacation homes and a few priests who are quite wealthy.
Take a guy like Andrew Greeley, a diocesan priest and professor at the University of Chicago. Greeley is a priest in good standing with the Chicago Archdiocese and he’s a millionaire from income on the publication of his novels. He’s been very charitable and has given away millions, but he is still wealthy. He was under no requirement to give away any money. Diocesan priests do not make vows or promises of poverty.
12:53 am
Lloyd:
So you’re telling me that just because I have sex with my fiancee whom I am getting married to at the end of the month I am going to Hell? That is what you’re telling me if I don’t have a PRIEST forgive me? How about if said priest is a child molester like many of the ones out there. I guess he’s exempt because he works in God’s Church, huh?
1:14 am
The Catholic Church does many good works, and is filled with loving people with good intentions.
However…
Their position on homosexuality is just cruel. They would ask me (a gay man) to reject all human intimacy for my entire life, merely to comport with their theories (complimentariness of the sexes, etc). It’s fine if priests take a vow of chastity, but it shouldn’t be required of others (Catholic or not) merely by logical deduction. It is not good for man to be alone. What am I supposed to do? Have no love my entire life? Priests don’t even understand the basic intimacy of (literally) sleeping with someone, and would deny me everything — even though they admit it’s not my choice to be gay. Cruel.
“Never trust someone who doesn’t cuddle.”
Also, I should say I fully support the Church’s right to be cruel, of course. They have the right to interpret things their own way. No one is suggesting that the Church be forced to marry gay people.
But what’s interesting is that the Church seems to be able to exist in our culture where the civil rules of divorce are different than the Catholic rules. Everyone understands the difference, and that the fact the state allows civil divorce and re-marriage doesn’t impede upon the Catholic Church’s rights — at all! The Church does *not* try to force its divorce rules on the rest of society. Why is it trying to force its marriage rules? Can’t they “live and let live”? It really would have *no* practical effect that I can see if they dropped their opposition to civil marriage. Everyone would just say, “yep, the Church doesn’t agree with it” and move on. Just like with civil divorce.
2:09 am
This is a bit tangential but the Catholic Church is seriously undermining their legitimacy by being so staunchly against homosexuality. One day, they’re going to HAVE to recant their position, and expose their fallibility. The other option is to keep being anti-gay and alienate themselves from more and more of the population.
This has happened before many times with the Church (like being against the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun) but now we live in a more connected world. News travels quickly.
2:39 am
Since apparently the only way to get a response here is to yell the loudest and make the least intelligent insults, I will try my last post again, but this time in your language
ALL GAYS ARE GOING TO HELL WITH THEIR HEATHENISH AND GODLESS WAYS, GOD IS DEAD AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE ALL FUCKING MORONS, ABORTION IS MURDER LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION, LIFE DOESN’T START UNTIL THE FETUS LEAVES THE WOMB
Now that I’ve got your fucking attention, can we try this again? Can anyone respond logically to what I said nearly one hundred stupid, unreasonable, and unbelievably hateful posts ago? I’ll amend a couple of parts to try and make it less biased.
Reading this comment thread makes me ashamed to live in a country with you people. Seriously, I’m 21 years old and I know for a fact that I know more about tolerance, kindness, and love than most of you will ever grasp in your entire lives. Atheists and theists alike. But I am an atheist, a so-called godless heathen with no moral compass. It makes me really sad that some of you people- the ones who are supposedly so enlightened and filled with this great understanding of “God’s love”- are helping to perpetuate this horribly vitriolic cycle, continuing to push your views onto EVERYONE’S lives, and somehow you think you’re right. Superior. I don’t get it, and I’m glad I don’t get it. THAT BEING SAID, you atheists here seriously need to rely on more logic and reason if you want to be seen as anything besides an angsty teen. Making your name “Jesus Sucks” is a really bad idea if you want ANYONE, fellow atheists included, to take you seriously. Baseless name calling is unnecessary if you have logical and valid points to get across.
“Tell me one thing, how is it that for thousands of years, gays never demanded marriage until now? ”
That’s like asking “Why did black people never want equality until NOW, jeeze, I mean obviously before they liked being considered inhuman!” Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? Why would they have pushed for it any sooner? So they could be stoned? Tarred and feathered? Hanged? Thrown in jail for life?
We have, as a country, finally progressed enough in the civil rights arena that we should be finally able to live up to something we promised over two hundred years ago-
“All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness”
If you all, collectively, can do nothing more than bicker hatefully, then please get out of the way of those of us who want to make this country better. For everyone.
9:05 am
This seems unbelievably passive-aggressive of the Catholic Church.
Or, maybe it’s just cynical: they get to save some money on their employee benefits, all the while blaming gays for the lack of spousal benefits. It’s a win-win.
9:06 am
Point 1: Homosexuality is not the same as race or sex. It is an intrinsically disordered lifestyle choice, akin to alcoholism and other neuroses. It is treatable for many (there are large numbers of ex-homosexuals), and for those who cannot rise above the desires, chaste and celibate lifestyle choices work best for physical and emotional health. The Church speaks in truth and love in how it helps homosexuals bear their cross.
Point 2: Let it be known, that to the vast majority of the world (especially among religious) two men or two women pleasuring themselves together is neither considered to be sex nor considered moral. The homosexual “relationship” is also not a marriage nor healthy, regardless of what one chooses to call it. This is not something that can be accepted or considered normal, and that is never going to change. The intrinsically disordered desires of homosexuals need to be treated with compassion and care so that they can lead healthy and chaste lives, as opposed to what research has shown to be overwhelmingly destructive lifestyles.
Unfortunately, homosexual lobbies and other interests have long distorted points 1 and 2, much to the detriment of those with homosexual proclivities. AIDS, other diseases, depression, abuse, and suicide will continue to stalk homosexuals until they are freed from their destructive choices and allowed to live as nature and God intended them to live.
9:15 am
Thank God for the Reformation!
9:15 am
Those who observe the works of God must surely have observed by now that there is no way to make a gay person a heterosexual. Some of us have also observed that the behavior seems to occur quite naturally among other mammals, without any negative impact on those species.
As a Christian, my duty to serve God and know His will requires me to consider these facts, and ultimately conclude that homosexual orientation occurs naturally and in accordance with God’s design. It can’t be cured or suppressed, because it is not a sickness or an idea. It is literally a fact of life. God made some people gay and not others, and that’s that.
To me, the sin is in trying to destroy what God has given us by being hateful to our gay brothers and sisters. It saddens me that the Roman Catholic Church, for all their devotion to God and for all their charitable works, have institutionalized this terrible sin and burdened people of faith with it.
Of course the Church has no obligation to charity. Charity can only be compelled by love–the love, I might add, that Jesus taught us to bear for everyone, whether they’re friends, strangers, villains, or people we simply don’t understand. Anyone who does not love homosexuals enough to provide benefits for their spouses should not do so. But such a person should not also claim that he is a good neighbor to his gay brothers, or that his church has any right to moral authority. When we are not representing Jesus, we’re really just people, no better than those we hate.
So let’s have no more talk about what the Catholics OUGHT to do with their charitable works. They clearly have their burdens to bear, just as we all have enough of our own.
9:18 am
Well, Steven, you’re wrong on this, but that is probably because we have never met. The “ex” community is growing at a faster rate than the homosexual lobby.
9:54 am
@David #143, could you please let me know where these “ex” gays are? And not their friends, the ACTUAL “ex” gays. Is there one in the area that I might talk to? I’d like to talk to one or two of them. Is it hard to locate them because they’re pretty much seen as straight? Please don’t send me to PFox. They are a joke.
I’m really trying hard not to be snarky, as it is not helpful in this conversation.
@Holley #138, the reason why you haven’t gotten a response is because you make a precise and fairly complete argument. And you ask valid questions, so good luck with getting coherent answers to them.
And here’s a question for the staunch Christians out there: Let’s say that there is a person you know who is active in the church (and has been for years), gives to his/her community, and is an overall good person. And then you find out that this person has a partner of the same sex and has been with that person for as long as you’ve known that he/she has been active in the church. Before you found out about his/her relationship, you thought only the best of this person. Is this person not a Christian anymore? Or was this person never a Christian in your eyes because he/she was living as a gay person?
9:56 am
David, I dispute your point that there are large numbers of ex-homosexuals. I realize that many call themselves that, but I believe the term is misleading. About 95% of them return to homosexual behavior or renounce all heterosexual relationships within two years. This is enough to make me suspicious that something similar is happening with the remaining 5%. And while it is certainly a principled stance for a homosexual who has a moral objection to same-sex relationships to commit to celibacy, this is a difficult commitment to make, especially when there is no real evidence that doing so is necessary.
To talk of “rising above one’s desires” is a phrase I frankly wouldn’t dare to use. My faith doesn’t call on me as a heterosexual man to transcend my own sexuality, so to claim that the same faith requires this of a gay person seems hypocritical. I realize that it isn’t actually hypocritical if there’s some fundamental moral difference between heterosexual and homosexual consummation… but I have no compelling evidence that there is.
The way to ensure good physical health isn’t to abandon homosexuality but to practice safe sex. As for emotional health, one of my recommendations is service to God, which I cannot offer a gay man if I also tell him that God hates his nature.
You say that a homosexual relationship can never be accepted, but I tell you that it is easier to accept it than it is for a gay man to become straight. If less than 5% (my suspicion is 0%) of gays can become ex-gays, while nearly 50% can support the right of gays to marry, my point should be easy to accept.
Many things do plague the homosexual community, but none of these would be made any worse by loving them as neighbors and encouraging them to be free of the closet. It is not God that curses them, but a society that insists they keep their lives hidden–the society we as Christians have helped create by judging them unfairly. Perhaps if they lived as God and nature intended them to live, they would be as open and nonchalant about their orientations as we are of ours, and would feel more welcome to seek God among us.
10:03 am
Well, David, you’re wrong. See how easy that was?! I can make unsupported claims as well.
I want to talk about your second point because you are clearly not going to accept that your first point is incorrect. I am curious as to why it matters that you or your supposed “vast majority” care. I really would like someone to explain it to me because I have been confused about this ever since I was a kid.
Also, why do people equate sex to marriage? That doesnt make sense. Are people are able to have sex without being married without it being a sin? Do you want to take away rights from all sinners? What about people who are lazy, maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to get married. Are people allowed to be married if their main goal is not to have sex all the time?
I am being serious I do want answers to these questions. Personally I believe that if something doesnt harm me, people can do whatever they want. You can be religious, and straight. You can be proud of both, hopefully they both make you happy. Life is too short not to keep doing things that make you happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0spFY1I2NQ
10:13 am
It’s amazing how much hatred and indignant aggrandizement the Catholic Church is able to spew while still attempting to apply adjectives like “moral”, “pro-life”, or “righteous” to itself. What god do you think you are serving?
12:38 pm
I really am sickened by this.
But, as much as I want to tell you, OMG ITS THE CATHOLIC FAITH that’s the problem, it’s not. Its the people not following their own rules, it’s the hypocrites, it’s the shameless discriminators that have caused this.
The Catholic Church doesn’t pin one sin higher or lower than the other (in reference to moral vs venial), just like it doesn’t inherently say that gay sex is worse or better than bearing false witness. Catholic Charities doesn’t discriminate against liars working for them, they don’t discriminate against working with the LGBT poor, why would they discriminate against the LGBT that work for them? Because they’re ignorant humans who are on a slippery moral slope.
They’ve failed their own mission in a quest for partisianship.
(poorly written journal comment attached as website if you want to yell how ridiculous i am).
3:33 pm
It saddens me to see Catholic Charities resort to this kind of petty, uncharitable behavior. They’ll have a big problem hiring experienced staff now. Married people are not going to work for Catholic Charities if their spouses are denied benefits.
Archbishop Wuerl used to be the bishop of my diocese. He was great at explaining Church doctrine in simple terms and generally seemed to use diplomacy to deal with controversies. I’m surprised and disappointed that he has not handled this situation better.
3:47 pm
@ David, thank you for your thoughts on this! You could not be more accurate or on point regarding homosexuality and the Church. I also applaud the Archbishop’s stance on this, and all of us faithful Catholics in DC stand firmly with him.
The homosexual lobby on the DC council cares more about their lifestyle choices than the poor. It is obvious by how much money they pour into lawsuits to “normalize” what is objectively disgusting and immoral behavior instead of using that to help the poor and disadvantaged. I’ve never met a homosexual activist who cares about anyone or anything besides his or herself and his or her sexual perversions.
4:21 pm
Phillip, what about straight people who support gay rights? There are lots of us, and gay rights don’t have anything to with our own sexual perversions. We just believe in equal rights for everyone and don’t want the Catholic church dictating laws and policy in our country. Like Dr. King said, injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
5:16 pm
Philip,
Nancy Boy Wuerl will simply have to get over himself. I know it’s a shock that your god didn’t descend on a cloud and stop this pagan orgy of same-sex marriage, but that’s what you get for believing in something that’s just not there.
I hope this really irritates you. I really do. It please me greatly to see you (and the people who agree with you) realize that they lost permanently on this issue. Meanwhile, you know deep down that every state where same-sex marriage has failed will eventually adopt the progressive stance, and there’s nothing you or your make-believe god can do to stop this.
It’s nice when progressives win; it’s better when conservatives lose.
5:30 pm
LOL @ Paul. You do realize that this has not been put to a vote yet, and the track record of homosexual activism stands at 0 and 31. This is not permanent in the slightest. It is one election or legislation away from disappearing just as it has in every other place when put to a vote. You’ve won nothing. You and other atheists lost 2010 years ago, and just cannot get over it.
I’m not irritated. Instead, your little temper tantrum over your right to sexual perversion makes me shake my head in embarrassment for you.
5:32 pm
Dr. King was opposed to both abortion and homosexual behavior. He would most certainly stand on the side of the Church. Race is not a choice. Choosing to violate a man’s rectum with a penis, or to fake the marital act with a rubber phallus is indeed a choice, and a sinful one at that.
5:40 pm
Alveda, you know straight people have way more anal sex than gay people, right?
6:00 pm
“The new plan will provide the same level of coverage for employees and their dependents that you now have, with one exception: spouses not in the plan as of March 1, will not be eligible for coverage in the future.”
So much for the sacrament of heterosexual marriage, eh? In the eyes of the Church, it’s just a bargaining chip now.
This sort of cynicism and hypocrisy is precisely why the influence of the Church continues to wane. Birth control usage among Catholics is more widespread than ever, as is divorce. Prominent Catholics such as Marc Thiessen can publicly embrace torture as a virtue and still partake in Communion. Similarly, acceptance and even vocal support of the death penalty by Catholics is met with craven silence from the Church hierarchy.
Yet when persons who aren’t even Catholic want to have their committed, loving and monogamous relationships recognized not by the Church but by the secular State, suddenly there’s an uproar about the immorality of it all. Anyone who still believes in the moral authority of the Church really needs to open their eyes. Bigotry is evil, not moral.
6:37 pm
Giving a shout-out to Holley #138! I’m with you on that.
7:37 pm
David,
There’s same-sex marriage in six venues in the US now, and not a dam thing you can do about it. So I don’t know where you get the 31-0 figure. Seems it ought to be 31-6 at least. And in 10 years, you know there will be more place in the US to marry not less. You’re spitting in the wind, loser. History is on the side of human progress, not you and your fuckin’ nailed-to-a-tree god (who was probably a raging bottom boy).
7:44 pm
Praise be God, it is 0 and 31 for the homosexual/anti-family lobby when put to the vote! Nice call David! The same will be true in DC in a matter of time. Prop 8 was a success, and will be here as well. We’re not too worried. Maine and California should have been closer, but it was a landslide victory for God, the Church, REAL marriage, and the family. We have time, the majority of Americans and their families, and huge financial reserves on our side. But more than that, we have God, to whom we owe all of our victories over evil and death through vote to.
Paul M, seek help, because the way you write makes you appear to be a violently abusive individual. If you are representative of the homosexual lobby, you are fulfilling the very type of person we are so concerned about, and warn our children of. I will pray for you.
7:47 pm
@ spambalaya,
Its always funny to hear someone complain of the Church, and then suggest its waning because it won’t bend to their world view. Never mind that such an opinion is not based in fact.
Catholic and Mormon Churches: Experienced GROWTH in the past few years. Primarily due to the fact that they DON’T bend to the whims of popular society.
Protestant and “other” churches: Experienced DECLINE, precisely over the homosexual issue and being far too liberal…i.e., bending to what is popular.
So your words do not match reality, mister spambalaya.
7:50 pm
David, Lisa, toni, Spam, etc:
Don’t worry if you can’t convince knuckleheads on here that their lifestyle choices are leading directly to their destruction. Your tossing your pearls before the swine here. They’ve been told, at length, that they are wrong, yet refuse to listen.
We’ve done all we can here, and it was a tremendous success. God bless each one of you standing up for REAL marriage (1 man and 1 woman for life). It doesn’t matter what the 1% thinks about it, for their relationships will NEVER be marriage in the eyes of the Church, in our eyes, or the eyes of the vast majority of the nation. If they want to be deluded and live in sin, despite knowing better, we have done all we can. Another victory for our Holy Mother the Church!
All glory and honor to Jesus Christ. Lord, Creator, and Master of all here…including the unbalanced and violent guy!
Viva la Christ!
8:47 pm
Lloyd,
Fuck your christ in the ass.
8:49 pm
I think the Church(TM) is doing this under the guise of not wanting to provide benefits to gays. But what I believe is really going on is a very shrewd and convenient business decision. You see, if you cut everyone’s benefits that allows the Church(TM) to save big, big money. That big money can then be used to pay down the judgment of the court and the plaintiffs who as young kids were assaulted by pedophile priests
8:55 pm
Too bad they didn’t put in nail in jesus’s rectum.
9:50 pm
Paul Mith… are you really a gay person, or are you a straight fundie trying to write blatantly horrible things to make gay people look bad? I for one don’t know any gay people who would write such horrible things. In any case, it’s repulsive and insulting… please stop. (If you are really gay, then you’re a disgrace to us all.)
9:58 pm
No, it’s too important to give this self-righteous christo-fascists a taste of their own medicine. Sometimes people can only be brought to awareness of their own cruelty through shock.
They have to be made to understand the enormity and permanence of their political loss. Despite their bravado, this new law is forever, and even though they try to deny it, it’s really true: their kids and grandkids will consider sam-sex marriage normal and consider their parents and grandparents as bigoted cranks.
It’s important that they lose and that history records that they lost (kinda like George Wallace and the klan).
They won’t acknowledge it, but it’s true. And their clinging to a god to give them an illusory moral authority to resist this change has to be mocked.
Fuck. Their. God. In. The. Ass.
10:05 pm
Human actions trump made-up gods. Every time.
11:13 pm
I doubt such language will persuade any of them. It’ll just make it easier for them to dismiss you and call you depraved. (end of rant)
11:28 pm
Then at least we’re even. For too long they’ve justified their own depravity by citing “rules” from thier make-believe god. They need to pay for all the torment they’ve inflicted on gay men and women by having their most cherished beliefs laughed at.
11:43 pm
I am very proud of the Catholic Charities for this. THey should have stood up to the insanity even before this.
Carry on.
2:41 am
Spam Conqueror: “Its always funny to hear someone complain of the Church, and then suggest its waning because it won’t bend to their world view. Never mind that such an opinion is not based in fact.
Catholic and Mormon Churches: Experienced GROWTH in the past few years. Primarily due to the fact that they DON’T bend to the whims of popular society.”
Spam Conqueror, you missed my point entirely. Regardless of whether Church membership is growing, the actual adherence of those members to established Catholic doctrine has been in decline for years. Birth control, divorce, and support for the death penalty and torture are now more common among the laity than ever before, and yet the Church turns a blind eye to these transgressions within its own flock. Too many Catholics just don’t take Church teachings on one or more of these subjects seriously anymore, and the clergy is too cowed to loudly and vigorously speak out from the pulpit against these sins for fear of offending their meal tickets. The moral legitimacy of the Church among Catholics is indeed on the wane.
But when there’s an opportunity to heap the blame for society’s ills on a minority that resides for the most part outside the Church, in this case gays and lesbians, the Church pulls out all the stops. It can climb on its high horse without really risking anything approaching self-examination, and can present a cheap façade of morality even as the decay within its own walls continues unabated.
When the Church denies Communion to the public torture apologists and the politicians who support the death penalty, let me know. At that point I may consider taking its claims of moral integrity seriously again. But I sure ain’t holding my breath, because that would require REAL moral courage.
11:53 am
@Alveda
“Choosing to violate a man’s rectum with a penis, or to fake the marital act with a rubber phallus is indeed a choice, and a sinful one at that.”
What if I violated a Man’s rectum with a rubber phallus? Would that blow your mind?
Aside…
Spambalaya, fantastic words with the Church denying communion around to those who support the death penalty, unjust war, systemic disenfranchisement to perpetuate poverty. I’m from Chicago, and under the great Joseph Cardinal Bernardin, I came to know this ideology, I grew up with this…
But this is in no way, shape, or form, consistent with the way the Church looks to its own flock, as you said. There’s the air of hypocrisy that just permeates through it. You want to ban abortions, but you don’t care about the poor. You want to end the ‘depravity’ of gays… yet, I know priests, brothers, and sisters, who are gay, and not only tolerated (yeah, i know… supported is a lot to ask), but incredible ministers of Christ and his love. Does your god condemn these people? (@spam c, lloyd? I’m pretty sure mine doesn’t.
It just boggles my mind, If they think that homosexuality is a choice, and it’s a grave sin, why aren’t they disenfranchising their other non-catholic staff who fornicate and live in adultery (also a grave sin).
I’m assuming many of you gay bashing catholics have never read the ‘always our children’ memo from the USCCB (located here http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml) which was fantastically crafted as a real answer to how the US Church opines as opposed to what individual d-bags say.
“There seems to be no single cause of a homosexual orientation. A common opinion of experts is that there are multiple factors—genetic, hormonal, psychological—that may give rise to it. Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.”
ZOMG. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING GAY ACCORDING TO CATHOLICS! ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG!
Did you miss it?
“not as something freely chosen.”
“not as something freely chosen.”
“not as something freely chosen.”
Amazing huh? I only point this out so drastically, so that there’s a middle ground between LGBT Catholics (like myself), the LGBT Left who thinks that ZOMG RELIGION H8S ME, and the Catholic Right, who think that ZOMG TEH CHURCH SAY GAYZ R BAD. This point of contention I hear all the time from my LGBT friends, collegues, whomever, as a misguided principle that’s not consistent with the overarching teachings of the Catholic Church.
If being gay is not bad. Then, well, you catholic gay bashing numbskulls. Throw the first stone (John 8:7), c’mon. I dare you. Tell me you’re less likely to ever experience mortal sin than gays? C’mon.
The individual people in this game are bad. The system is questionable (i.e. the ideology and theology of the Church), but, overwhelming the problem lies in the people in charge of the DC CC, and the DC Archdiocese, than in the Catholic Church.
Oh, and Ray Russ. You’re ignorant as hell. Pedophilia in the Church is still below national non-clergy and protestant clergy levels. Do some research before making shit up.
12:00 pm
(Oh, also quoting)
“The teachings of the Church make it clear that the fundamental human rights of homosexual persons must be defended and that all of us must strive to eliminate any forms of injustice, oppression, or violence against them (cf. The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, 1986, no. 10).”
How about dem apples?
8:08 pm
Steven
March 3rd, 2010
9:15 am
#142
Those who observe the works of God must surely have observed by now that there is no way to make a gay person a heterosexual. Some of us have also observed that the behavior seems to occur quite naturally among other mammals, without any negative impact on those species.
WHAT?! What other mammals do that?! If you are thinking about the stupid peguins, it’s a made up book trying to indoctrinate our kids! Besides how could it not have any negative impact on the species when two males as well as two females cannot produce an offspring.
and Kay, what rights are being violated??Health care is not a right!
8:19 pm
Kay,
Care to quote the rest of your citations? The Church has always said the orientation is not wrong, BUT THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS. Is that clear? Go ahead, quote the rest of the Catechism.
No, we DON’T discriminate based upon sexuality. Homosexuals can be Catholics. However, the Church has not, does not, and will never approve homosexual “marriage”, and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because marriage involves sex, and homosexual sex is a gravely mortal sin.
Do you understand that, or do we need pictures?
8:22 pm
Ha! Don’t pat yourself too hard on the back, Paul Mith! Nothing you said was shocking in the slightest, because its been said for 2010 years. You’re old news spouting old hate. No different than the KKK and Nativists of the 19th century.
Again, I reiterate Paul. You can rape us, murder us, chop us up, and burn us. None of that would surprise because its all been done before.
Unfortunately for ideologues such as yourself, those tactics only work on YOU. We’ve dealt with it for twenty centuries and still do to this very day.
You can’t win. You’ll never win. Only God wins.
8:24 pm
That’s right, Lloyd! Homosexuals are called to celibacy if they cannot correct their disordered desires.
Kay’s own blog suggests she hasn’t been to Mass in years, so her comments carry absolutely no weight. Kay needs to keep reading and get back to Mass, for she spouts things she doesn’t understand. In other words, in a debate against Father John Corapi, she would pee herself.
9:13 pm
“Choosing to violate a man’s rectum with a penis, or to fake the marital act with a rubber phallus is indeed a choice, and a sinful one at that.”
What if I “violate” my HUSBAND’S rectum with a rubber phallus? What if he “violates” my vagina with a vibrating silicone one? What if we actually enjoy having sex? I think that might be a sin too.
These people must have awfully boring sex.
9:18 pm
“WHAT?! What other mammals do that?!”
The real questions is which mammals DON’T. (and penguins aren’t MAMMALS, so not sure why you went off on that. plus it’s not made up, I’ve been to the zoo and seen it myself.) Pretty much every mammal people have been able to observe have had gay sex.
The evolutionary benefit to a small population of gays (in humans) is this: If you are a gay aunt/uncle, you won’t have kids of your own, therefore you can help your brother/sister with THEIR kids – which will also pass on your genes!
Of course it’s not harmful in any way, even if they DON’T help raise any children.
IMO, love is much better than hate. hateful catholics should try it.
9:55 pm
Toni- give it a break. John Corapi isn’t good for anything but rambling on about how his mother prayed him out of his money, or something like that.
And you do realize that, according to the RCC, heterosexuality isn’t okay unless its specifically directed towards the spouse only, and in the context of full on sex, right? Because I’m pretty sure that about 100% of your Catholic heterosexuals are breaking that rule, too. Pots and kettles, you know?
10:05 pm
Silly Brad and Kat, obviously not acquainted with Pope John Paul the Great’s Theology of the Body. Sexual intercourse, as God created it…between one man and one woman married for life, is far better than any perversion thought of by anyone here. It is quite simply the most amazing gift, and according to statistics, we Catholics who follow such teachings and Humanae Vitae, enjoy far more sex and fare more satisfying sex than anyone else.
So you can keep your perversions. We’ll keep God and His great gift. We would rather die than be forced to experience your depravities.
10:05 pm
well said again, David! God bless you!
1:46 am
“Sexual intercourse, as God created it…between one man and one woman married for life, is far better than any perversion thought of by anyone here. ”
ok… so intercourse involving a dildo in a mans ass between husband and wife “married for life” is ok then? or not? i didn’t understand your answer. what about a dildo in the woman’s ass? or her vagina? what about fingers? any toys? anything but PIV?? is “foreplay” (hate that word, foreplay is sex IMO) forbidden? missionary procreative sex only? BORING.
no matter how much you claim you are more satisfied than everyone else, it’s not gonna convince me. I am very satisfied with my partner and that’s all that matters to me. you can do whatever you want.
1:48 am
“heterosexuality isn’t okay unless its specifically directed towards the spouse only, and in the context of full on sex, right?”
that’s right, and no sex that feels good for women (vibrators, fingers, tongues). missonary only! don’t know about you but I can’t get off at all, married or not, with missionary PIV only.
ugh if your into boring sex, FINE, do it, stop trying to force it down all our throats.
2:03 am
Kat said:
The real questions is which mammals DON’T. (and penguins aren’t MAMMALS, so not sure why you went off on that. plus it’s not made up, I’ve been to the zoo and seen it myself.) Pretty much every mammal people have been able to observe have had gay sex.
They’re animals, remember? There is a difference between their not being able to control their sexual URGES than cultivating emotional relationships like human beings do! Also, there is a difference between animals of the same sex caring for one another as a survival mechanism for the group, such as with lions, wild dogs, and other pack groups; but when it comes time to mate, the opposite sex is still the choice even in animals!
Also, please don’t assume that I am one of these “Hateful Catholics” just because I disagree with your point of view. You cannot see into my heart just as I can’t into yours and it is really something satan enjoys to divide people’s humanity.
Oh, and as for the use of dildos used in marriage; it’s okay as long as it is in the context of foreplay that leads up to the sexual union open to creating life between a wife and a husband.
1:27 pm
“Kay’s own blog suggests she hasn’t been to Mass in years, so her comments carry absolutely no weight. Kay needs to keep reading and get back to Mass, for she spouts things she doesn’t understand. In other words, in a debate against Father John Corapi, she would pee herself.”
So. I went to reconciliation yesterday (gasp) and recieved communion (gasp). Okay. I’m in full communion with the Church again. Because I’ve been away from the Church for a few years I don’t have a legitimate voice? Try bashing your head against a wall a few times and then get back to me. I’d rather you argue to my points, rather than my condition. I changed the condition, now you change your tone. Quit with the ad hominem as I have shown NONE of this to you or anyone.
and re: health care is not a right? well, the way it is now goes clear against the 7th commandment. Taking advantage of the poor. CCC 1867. Why is it that millions upon millions of poor Americans have no access to health care? Because we let it happen. Do they not deserve to be tended to? Like, Luke 10:9, Jesus called his disciples to go and tend to the sick. Did they discriminate who they went to? No, because mercy and compassion knows no dollar amount. Man, this thread has a lack of that mercy and compassion stuff to. *shrugs*
@ Lloyd
“BUT THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS.”
Sure, so is the act of adultry, fornication, masturbation, bearing false witnesses, coveting your neighbors wife, gluttony, abuse, anger, hatred, defraudement, taking advantage of the poor, unfair wages, adulation (that’s a big one here), envy, avarice.
If you’ve done any one of those, you’re no worse than those that you are rallying against.
“However, the Church has not, does not, and will never approve homosexual “marriage”, and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because marriage involves sex, and homosexual sex is a gravely mortal sin.”
The Church has not, does not, and will never approve of heterosexual “divorce”, and reserves the right to discriminate on that. Why? Because the resulting case is often one based in adultery (i.e. sex with someone you are NOT married to), and adultery is a gravely mortal sin.
What’s the difference here? One is discriminated against, and the other is not? All sins are equal in God’s eye? Correct? James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
Am I against the complacency of the Church in handling these matters? Absolutely.
“Sexual intercourse, as God created it…between one man and one woman married for life, is far better than any perversion thought of by anyone here. It is quite simply the most amazing gift, and according to statistics, we Catholics who follow such teachings and Humanae Vitae, enjoy far more sex and fare more satisfying sex than anyone else.
So you can keep your perversions. We’ll keep God and His great gift. We would rather die than be forced to experience your depravities.”
I have no doubt that you mean well. But, be consistent in your attacks. Go after the heterosexual parishioners of your parish who are unmarried and having sex, as, they too, are living something perverse. Go after all of the parishioners who masturbate as they’re doing something perverse. Go after the divorcees. Once you (as most of you I have met are all alike in this regard) start doing this, and embracing a consistent focus on how you handle this. But, in my eyes, all of the focus is on the gays, and not any of the other tree trunks in your eyes. Your virulence is absolutely blinding. Where’s the compassion for the people?
2:42 pm
“So you can keep your perversions. We’ll keep God and His great gift. We would rather die than be forced to experience your depravities.”
You realize that lusting for a woman who isn’t your wife is a perversion of God’s plan for marriage, right? And in fact, if you aren’t married, you better not have any sex drive at all. Because that’s completely taking God’s gift of sex and twisting it into something horrible.
4:32 pm
Lisa, what do you think the point of spewing your opinion all over here is? I, and most of us here I assume, don’t give a rat’s arse what you think about this. I will continue on living my life the way I do, as a generally friendly, loving, and chartible person. I will continue to disregard the OPINIONS of you and the Church, because they do not matter to me, and no amount of your blathering can change that.
4:39 pm
oh, and also, you note that health care is not a right. Well I feel badly for people who do not have access to affordable health care. I hope for a better world in which this situation wouldn’t exist (or more realistically, would exist with less frequency). I feel this way about all people, of all ages, races, creeds, orientations, etc. I can’t believe that any good and decent human being would feel otherwise.
10:19 pm
Let me tell you. I grew up in a christian household. I became a Christian and was very strong in my faith. Then I went into puberty and realized that I was gay. It was a horrific struggle between my faith and who I was attracted to. I didn’t have wild gay sex or even crazy affairs. I only have had 3 boyfriends in my past and the 3rd has been my partner for 11 years. I love this man with all my heart. The only thing I love more is God. However, the church is a mess. Especially the Catholic church. My father was raised a Catholic and My mom was raised a Baptist. My fathers mother did not even come to their wedding because she felt that my father was living in sin to be marrying my mom. Even after my parents were married for 30 years my grandmother would ask when my mom and dad would get a real wedding. Also, my grandfather killed himself. The Catholic church didn’t even give him a decent funeral. From what I can gather I have no use for the Catholic church. God is my rock. My partner and I have a wonderful love filled life with lots of family and friends. That is what is important. This hate filled stuff coming from the Catholics is just more of the same. I mean in the past they used to convince people to give money to cleanse people of their sins. The church needs to change and leave the judging to GOD and follow Christs example in loving your neighbor as yourself.
1:20 am
Lisa @ 174
“WHAT?! What other mammals do that?! If you are thinking about the stupid peguins, it’s a made up book trying to indoctrinate our kids! Besides how could it not have any negative impact on the species when two males as well as two females cannot produce an offspring.”
What other mammals do that? I know from personal experience that cows do.
I grew up ranching cattle. In a herd of 150 cows and 2 bulls, seeing one cow mount another (referred to as “bulling”) was a common sight.
5:22 pm
So if I got married to a lady but pinky swore to Jesus to never have sex with her, I could get the several hundred benefits that are currently unequal between marriages and civil unions, and this entire issue would stop devouring church and state money, time, and attention? Or would people from the church have to post cameras to make sure we kept chaste, just like they do to make sure that straight couples are only having sex to reproduce and never committing sodomy or polygamy, and–oh, wait.
(I’ll save everyone the trouble: I don’t get it, you’ll pray for me, etc. Much obliged. While I’m not Christian, I respect the faith, admire its theories, and think it’s often maligned. I’m basically just here to say thanks to Steven. I saved your posts in a file. The sensible remarks you made remind me of my father, the most fiercely charitable servant of God I know.)
1:31 pm
OK, the conservatives lost in DC: now for some new states! Rhode Island is probably a win once their bigoted, term-limited governor is gone this year. I expect Maine will reintroduce their marriage equality bill, forcing another referendum (which will draw less support as more of the old bigots die off). Anyone else?