“Why Would I Want to Touch Your Ass?”: When Groping Victims Talk Back
Last week, the Sexist highlighted a fairly common reaction of groping victims around the metro region—say nothing. A woman who got assaulted on a crowded dance floor, a woman who got rubbed on Metro, a girl who got her ass grabbed—they all kept it to themselves. What if they’d said something? What kind of reception would they get? Below, five groping victims who spoke up—and what happened next.
THE INSIDE VOICE.
Vee Meadows’ job required her to stick her butt out a little bit. Meadows, a seasonal employee at a Dupont Circle bookstore, had bent over to fetch a bottom-shelved cookbook for a waiting customer, forcing her posterior to jut slightly into the aisle. “I suppose it was an irresistible temptation for a couple of guys walking by,” Meadows says. “So, one of them grabbed my ass.”
Meadows, 25, wasn’t expecting anybody to sexualize her cookbook duties. At that job, she had always felt like “less of a woman and more of a bookstore clerk.” And so Meadows assessed the situation like a bookstore clerk would. “I did feel like I had to act professionally in front of the customer,” she says. “I ended up having to be polite to my customer while I was inwardly fuming.” Post-grab, Meadows whipped around and administered a verbal response befitting her position: “As professionally as I could, I did say, ‘What the hell?’”
THE TIMID REPORT.
When Elizabeth, 28, felt a guy “shove his hand between my legs, all the way to the front” while waiting in line for her morning bus at PG Plaza—then caught the creep smiling at her—she didn’t say a thing. What she thought was, “Oh my God, I’m going to miss the bus.”
So she hurried on board and sat through the 15-minute ride to her museum job in College Park. When she arrived, she headed straight for the office bathroom and dry-heaved. Even though her body was attempting to puke the experience away, Elizabeth says she “played it down” when she informed her boss what happened. “I was agitated and livid, like, ‘Why are some men jerks like that, what is wrong with people?’…[But] I wasn’t calling it what I felt it was—and what I now know it was—which is a public sexual assault.”
When it came time to replay the scenario to her boss, “I felt ashamed—not of what happened to me, but of how I responded,” Elizabeth says. “I feel like I should have known better. I should have screamed.”
FLIPPING YOUR SHIT.
Emily was walking down U Street on a Friday night with a few girlfriends when a man walked up and helped himself to her scalp. “His hand went up to hold the back of my neck, then up my scalp, and down through my hair,” Emily says.
Emily, 22, has had her run-ins with gropers before. She’s endured an ass slap at a crowded bar a few times. But nothing like this. “It was such a violation. All I thought was: Wait. He’s groping my hair. What the hell is going on?” Emily says. Her response was too explicit to repeat: “I just started screaming at him: ‘What the bleep are you doing? What the bleep is wrong with you? Don’t bleeping touch me like that!’”
The man who reached out to caress Emily’s hair without her consent was not very open to considering Emily’s feelings. He fell back into a group of friends and joined them in “laughing at the 5'4" white girl
flipping her shit,” Emily says.
Emily’s friends begged her to stop yelling and resume their stroll to the bar. “My friends just kept saying, ‘Come on. Come on. It’s not worth it. You’re embarrassing us.’ When I finally left, I told them, ‘I’m sorry, guys. He was really close, and it creeped me out,’” she says. “I shouldn’t have apologized for myself. I hadn’t done anything wrong…I could still feel him in my hair.”
Dani, a friend of Emily’s who witnessed the petting, says the crew wanted to err on the side of caution. “I definitely am in support of Emily reacting that way, because it can make people think,” she says. “On the other hand, it’s not the safest of neighborhoods. After it happened, we were just kind of like, ‘OK. Lets keep walking.’ We didn’t want to cause any more trouble.”
THE PUBLIC ACCUSATION.
Jessica Graves screamed, too. Graves was waiting in line for the bathroom in an Austin, Texas, coffee shop when a man walked by, dragged his hand under the hem of her skirt, and grazed her butt. “He got a pretty good swipe,” Graves recalls. She followed him out the door. “Did you just touch my ass?” she demanded. “Why would I want to touch your ass?” he replied.
Graves had refused to be a passive victim. Her groper got even more of a thrill out of that. “I could see the sick sense of satisfaction on his face,” she says. “His expression said, ‘Gotcha! I can deny this, and you can’t do shit about it,’” says Graves. “I was enraged for hours. I didn’t sleep,” she says. “It made me so angry that I wanted to hurt people, and I’m not a violent person. I was so pissed off that I just shook with rage.”
THE JOKE.
The hug was not Allyson Rudolph’s idea.
Rudolph had hailed a cab after a night of drinking with some co-workers. It was late, she was tipsy, and a secure cab ride from the West End bar to her home in Shaw sounded like a good idea. “The bartenders had started bringing us shots, which is usually about when I realize I need to go home,” she says. “I’m a very cheap date.”
On the ride, Rudolph struck up a conversation with the driver, and the discussion turned to cab-riding etiquette. Both concurred that it’s important to exchange pleasantries between cabbie and customer. “We
were in solid agreement that one should never ignore a person they happen to be sharing a car with,” she says.
That’s when the proposition came. “Can I have a hug?” the cabbie asked as the ride came to an end. Rudolph obliged. “I was drunk and we’d been chatting, plus I love hugs, so it seemed like a great idea,” she says. Rudolph and the cabbie both opened their doors and stepped out of the car. “Then he squeezed my boob and tried to kiss me.”
Rudolph, who says she was too tipsy to report the cabbie, settled for laughing at him. When Rudolph tells this story, she casts the cab driver as a pathetic buffoon, his unsolicited grab at her breast marking him as inept instead of threatening. “I make light of this a lot and tell it to friends as a funny story, but actually it really angers me,” says Rudolph. “It’s easy to see how the story could have had a much less funny ending.…It’s only when I start to put the story in the context of a major social issue that it stops being funny. It’s a really clear example of the way the world is just different for girls, and that is something that I don’t find entertaining at all.”
This column is the third in a series. Catch up with Part 1: Touch and Go: How Groping Happens. And Part 2: I Just Wanted Him to Finish And Leave": Why Some Groping Victims Stay Silent. (Illustration by Brooke Hatfield).
2:31 pm
I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET MY CAPS LOCK KEY THAT ALL FIVE LADIES ARE WHITE.
WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR ASSES ARE FLAT.
SO SAID GROPER QUESTION WAS VALID “Why would I want to touch your ass?” BECAUSE IN ALL HONESTY THERE WAS NOTHING THERE TO TOUCH.
OTHER THAN ELIZBETH WHO SHOULD'VE PUNCHED PERP IN THE EYE AND CALL PG(WHO WOULD HAVE FINISHED THE JOB) THE STORIES HERE ARE WEAK AT BEST. ESPECIALLY THE ONE ABOUT THE HAIR.
WHY DONT YOU SPEND SOME TIME BEING A JOURNALIST AND REPORT ON THE REAL SEXIST ISSUE HERE IN DC. YOUNG BLACK GIRLS AND THEIR HIGH HIV RATE WITH NO HELP IN SIGHT. HOW THERE WAS SO MUCH ATTENTION WHEN WHITE MALES WERE DOMINATING THE SCENE NOW THAT ATTENTION IS PRETTY MUCH NON-EXISTANT.
TALK ABOUT THAT SHIT FOR A WEEK INSTEAD OF REGURGITATING EMILY, JESS AND ALLYSON'S DAY IN THE LIFE OF A WHITE GIRL!
2:42 pm
no doubt someone will call me ignorant, but im genuinely confused, what made you assume they were white?
a flat ass white girl at that?
did i miss something?
2:51 pm
To all the women who endure these assaults (particularly on the Metro), I'll pass along this little tidbit; a safety pin at the ready works wonders.
Prick a prick.
3:29 pm
Yo Noodlez - I'd actually like to hear a bit more on why white girls in particular aren't allowed to be angry that they were groped, whether flat- or fat-assed. I'm thinking there must be shades of Emmett Till here for you. Explore that, please.
Noodlez is right that it is a travesty that young black girls are suffering from HIV at such high rates. But there is no hierarchy of sexism - it's not helpful to say that we can talk about some things but not others, or that some things are worse than others. In a culture where women are devalued, it's good to talk about the entire spectrum and how every sexist behavior, from groping to rape, connects.
4:43 pm
For Christ sake Amanda get off the GROPING and DATE RAPE issue, it makes this column boring and not worth reading.
8:01 pm
No, Amanda, please stay on the groping and date rape issues. These things REALLY need to be said and you're doing an awesome job of it. The more voices that speak out on this, the better. Thank you.
9:03 pm
Keep talking about sexual assault and groping. It's an issue which affects every woman. Rick can continue in his little bubble of male privilege where anything not directly relating to his experience is "boring" - or he can shut up, read what about what women put up with and maybe learn something.
9:24 pm
'Thessa Mercury' and 'Melanie' not everyone lives in your peevish man hating world.
9:51 pm
Oh, yeah, because it's sooooo peevish and man-hating to think you have the right NOT to be assaulted as you go along your daily life!!
10:55 pm
'LeftSidePositive' shave you're arm pits go out and get laid, but since you hate men so much, 'Capitol Video' on Conn. Ave. is having a sale on dildos, go to it sister!
11:32 pm
HEY k THEY SHOULD GET ANGRY AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF WHINING TO MS HESS SO SHE CAN SPIN IT INTO A SERIES.
********************************************************
Rick Mangus IM WITH YOU ON THIS. THIS GROPING SHIT IS NOT WORTH READING. ITS LIKE FUCKING YOUR WIFE MISSIONARY. WHERE IS THE EXCITEMENT IN THAT?
12:00 am
Wow, Rick, those stereotypes are totally new and original. You must be a comic genius to use them in such a creative and different way.
Also, using ad hominems based on old tropes as a silencing tactic is definitely another new idea. Whew, your brain must be steaming.
Why don't you just tell us to make you a sammich to wrap up the all too predictable troll diatribe? Yawn.
12:40 am
The incident with the cab driver, the exact same thing happened to me. At the time I was totally hammered and I didn't realize how scary it was until the next day. I've still never discussed it with anyone. Thanks for publishing these stories. It's good to see this sort of thing, spoken of so rarely, in print.
10:21 am
I've been groped. My answer to it usually works wonders. I always try to stay alert, so if you are sloppy drunk this may not help you. Groping commences, I grab the offending hand or whatever body part it is and ask them if they would like to keep it. I squeeze hard so they can't get away quickly, maybe even pull them in to me. Hard to deny when someone is grabbing your hand. I offer to remove the hand while still gripping it tightly. If they say they want it, I tell them to keep it to themselves.
Please take your power back, women.
2:59 pm
Interesting series, Amanda. Keep up the great work.
3:32 pm
I have been following this article from the begining. I have to say that it is disturbing that women go through these things. I guess I would like to play Devil's Advocate here... Women have reported that they have been grabbed, rubbed, stroked, touched etc. I guess that the advantage of female gropers over male gropers is that men are more suspect than women. Additionally visually men can be caught, at least by the victim, whereas visually all of the excitment and activity women show will be internal. I understand that men do some,.. less than gentlemanly things,.. But have there been ANY men who have been violated?... and didn't enjoy the experience?
3:43 pm
Rashawd, Thanks for writing in. I'm currently working on a piece about male victims (of either male or female gropers). If you're a male victim of groping and want to talk about it, please e-mail me! ahess@washingtoncitypaper.com
3:53 pm
I guess I also would like to know where the thrill comes from. You know as far as I can tell there is the risk of being charged with assault, if you can prove it. Being a person who is allergic to jail, I am baffled at why they would even risk it. Beyond that I guess it's like jumping a very high ramp on a very small BMX Diamondback. Like a show of bravery. I don't know!! I know some guys that sit in the shaded area of the train with suglasses on so that they can look up skirts. I've seen drunks verbally and sometimes physically try to force themselves on women, of course I've tried to step in, but what happens when my stop comes up? I can't rightly escort a strange woman home. My wife would have balls al a cart for dinner. and yes I have been groped, didn't like it, and she was about 65 years old.
4:05 pm
every instance you named in your article is sexual assault. they should have been reported to police.
4:21 pm
That's what I'm saying lawyer face!! We should start a revolution!!! Seriously and inspire women to speak up dammit!! Don't let guys get away with that stuff!!
5:18 pm
I am a female who reads a blog by a local male semi-comedian (yes, I think he's funny)and he told of being groped (heavy rubbing) on the metro by a female. He liked it.
5:34 pm
When I was in college I took the Greyhound bus from DC to Philadelphia during a holiday break. I was in the last seat (usually a 3 seater) and there was an older black man seated next to me. I dozed off for a while only to be startled awake by his hand in my crotch! I freaked out, yelled at him, stormed to the front of the bus and informed the driver of what happened and he ejected the man from the bus on 95N. Ladies speak up!! You did nothing wrong and these freaks will contnue to do this until they are caught in the act. I still get skeeved out thinking about it.
5:50 pm
WHO CARES ABOUT GROPING, A NON STORY!
12:22 am
Iwas groped at a rock concert, but i liked it. i went with it and eventually came, but i never turned around to see who it was. i thought afterwwards that the person doing it must've been acreep and in a different setting i would have stopped it, but i was high and i liked it
12:26 am
...seriously, your friends who want to drag you down the street "without causing any more trouble" are the same friends who dragged you down there in the first place.
It's probably true that they don't want any more trouble but it's also true that they aren't the ones who were fondled by some guy on a public street, right in front of his friends. Is running away really going to make the situation better? Maybe it's the "safe play". But what sort of sign of respect for you is that?
I'd have to rethink my friends at that point.
It's an old saying, men may not respect each other, or the crap that any one of them may start, but when men are together, they stand or fall as one. True friends do not let you get groped by some strange guy and then just pull you away "before there's more trouble". You either need new friends or to stop going to places where this happens and you are left to suffer and steam over it. If not both.
The other thing is that "look at the little white girl flip out!" is a good sign that these guys thought that they could do that and get away with it, and it's possible that the cops would have brushed it off and told you to go on about your business (and if you didn't want that to happen, don't come down there), but there's only one way for you to find out and if you don't tell the police about these things, you know what they are going to say, "if they don't tell the police when these things happen, there's nothing that we can do about it". Then you will definitely get blamed when it happens again, as well as for the fact that they got away with it this time.
[but don't worry about that, the police will use any excuse to dismiss their responsibility for policing the streets as long as it allows them to do so without their having to say outright that they don't really give a shit about policing the streets, they just want to make it through their shift and collect a check]
12:35 am
But seriously guys pull this shit because they are assholes as well as because they think that they can get away with it.
Even if they couldn't get away with it, there will be some stupid asshole who will do it. Some dumb-ass drunk stupid asshole will do it, even if there is a cop standing right there.
A bunch of girls walking down a dark, busy street passing in front of a bunch of young assholes with nothing to do and no way to "make time" with those girls otherwise and little if no chance of getting caught and prosecuted or getting their ass beat even if the girls catch them red-handed? You're "fair game", to a degree. If possession is 9/10ths of the law, then surely evasion and avoidance is 9/10ths of self-defense. You see a group of young kids out, black or white, who you want nothing to do with? Don't have anything to do with them. Keep some distance between you and them. For your own sake. And if it's unavoidable that you pass by them, be sure to do so in a way that minimizes any chance that they will do dumb shit like reach out and grab your hair. If you have to, duck in an open storefront and let them pass by. If they don't pass by, if they literally hang outside waiting for you to come out, or they follow you inside? Call the cops.
Trust me, if you do not do that, if they get the impression that you will not do that, they will follow you all over the city until they get what they want.
12:41 am
...the classic scenario is that they pass by you, they start some shit with you, you get upset with them and start to yell at them and/or get into a fight with them, and then they point fingers at you and say that *you* are the one starting trouble. They are all there to back each other up and it's you and maybe a group of your friends, no one is watching until you start to yell but by then it's too late. It's a simple "he said, she said" situation and as long as they play it cool the cops are just going to tell them to move along, tell you to come down to the station and file a report. They key ting is that they get their "kicks" in first before anyone else begins to pay attention.
Best thing to do, just don't let them get near you. Then there's nothing they can do to you. If they follow you, get out your trusty 'ol cell phone and call the cops, or walk over to a cop or cop-car and point them out. If you do not do that, if you even act like you will let them follow you without complaint, you are asking for trouble. The very last thing that you should do is let them screw with you and just walk away, because they will just come back there to get you again the next time. They see you again, they know that they have an easy pigeon.
12:29 pm
Amanda, I've been following this series of yours, and the comments, with great interest. Thank you for continuing the conversation, and for addressing possible ways to prevent, and react to, this kind of disrespect and violence. This has been enlightening and fascinating to me, and has really made me consider, ahead of time, "what would I do if.....?" Thank you!
2:06 pm
I'm actually the Elizabeth in this story... and to those that are asking for women to start a revolution, I totally agree, though I think we should ask the men to join in and help as. Although it wasn't in the article, I actually am an activist in the anti-rape movement and was BEFORE this event happened to me. So, I knew all the "shoulds" and still couldn't process what happened to me that morning waiting for the bus. It was such a violating experience... We all think we know what we'll do when faced with something and the truth is, we honestly don't.
I'm just writing this so that we don't get into the "victim-blaming" trope. It's bad enough that I was assaulted, do I really have to feel like shit because I didn't act "appropriately" to it?
Anyhow, I think it's great what Amanda's doing. The more that we speak about these types of experiences, the less individuals will assume they are "making a big deal" or "it was an accident" and recognize these situations for what they are--sexual assault.
6:28 pm
I'm the Vee in the story (perhaps obviously) and I'm with Lizzy: let's avoid the victim blaming. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have done to stay far away from the guy I couldn't see coming (and I think my situation can be analogized to a lot of similar situations), and even though I did say something, I didn't run after the guys and I didn't report it anywhere. And you know what? It doesn't matter what I did. Because they shouldn't have touched me. That's the point here--don't grope people. It's not on the victims to start the revolution, I don't think, but the more we talk about it, the better. Breaking silences let's victims know they're not alone and also reiterates that, uh, hey, groping is not okay. We knew that, but it can stand to be said again.
10:17 pm
...if you can't do anything about it, then you're powerless to respond in a way that would either punish or inspire fear.
In other words you're the perfect victim.
7:40 am
The first time I fought someone was because he groped me.
I was tiny little white girl that could barely look someone in the eye I was so shy and timid. Then he did it. And I flipped too. My cousin saw and ripped me off. My family was proud of me though, I guess that guy was known for that shit.
It was a proud day
Thank you for thissite. IT helps
1:39 pm
"let’s avoid the victim blaming."
You say that, but that's exactly the problem.
Blaming the perps isn't going to get you anywhere, is it? Especially when you're too afraid to do it in real-time...
You're attempting to dance around the fact that getting victimized is one thing, but standing there silently and letting it happen is quite another, and is half -a necessary half- of the problem in this situation. Certainly not all but many gropers, fondlers and public nuisances do what they so because so many of their victims do nothing in response as much as whatever gratuitous thrill they get out of it.
1:42 pm
"I’m just writing this so that we don’t get into the “victim-blaming” trope. It’s bad enough that I was assaulted, do I really have to feel like shit because I didn’t act “appropriately” to it?"
Apparently so. You need to feel like shit so that you don't let it happen again and respond the same way. That's how guilt works, yes? Grief, remorse, regret, all of these things. We have memories and emotional responses so that we have a powerful incentive to learn from our experience.
Besides, why do you think that you shouldn't feel like shit for letting a guy feel you up and doing nothing about it?
1:45 pm
"Being a person who is allergic to jail, I am baffled at why they would even risk it."
Same reason that anyone commits a crime. They don't think that they will get caught, if caught they think that they can talk their way out of it, they're ignorant and don't know that it's a crime, they're stupid, too much of a "badass" for that to scare them and don't care. Last but not least they think that it's worth the risk.
Pick you poisons and mix to taste.
3:26 pm
Wow jf1 you just solved the problem of sexual assault! Did you hear that ladies? All you need to do is stop asking for it! Then it will never ever happen!
Why didn't I think of that jf1? Probably because I'm just a women with a stupid lady brain. How could I forget that I committed the crime of having breasts and hips and those poor men just couldn't control themselves! It's true, science says so!
(P.S. Amanda I love your blog and this series on groping has been really helpful to me.)
3:30 pm
I've been groped and reacted back as well. I think I was about 16 (23 now) and I was at a rock show, one of those places you've discussed where men have said that "women deserve it". First of all, I don't think that there is ever any reason for a woman to "deserve" being groped, we can go where we want just like the men can. And second, he totally got a thrill out of how mad I got, just like you wrote. He grabbed one of my boobs and I yelled at him, which he thought was pretty funny. But then I wiped that smile off his face by giving him a swift kick to the crotch. That may have not been a very good reaction on my part as it is assault just like he assaulted me, but it was my gut reaction. The rest of the night was terrible because he kind of followed me around from a distance, throwing beer-ice at me and generally taunting me. What a douche! Seriously, what makes guys, or anyone for that matter, think that it's ok to treat someone that way? I came upon this blog by looking at my suggested stuff on google reader, and I'm glad I did! I didn't realize that groping was such a major problem and I'm glad (but not really, you know what I mean) to see that it happens to other people as well. I just wish more people would fight back instead of staying silent. If some guy were rubbing up on me on the metro, I certainly wouldn't let him go on any longer than it took for me to realize it! I'd make a scene! I hope that raising awareness about this will help more women fight back!
6:15 pm
Sarah I wish I was brave enough to fight back like you did! Good for you! I also think one of the things that needs to happen is for bystanders to take the side of the person who was groped. From my experience of dealing with groping and harassment, when I did stand up for myself I was yelled at for being "unladylike" and for "causing a scene". I've been afraid of fighting back for fear that I'll be the one arrested for assault. I think this is because groping is seen as normal and "not a big deal" but if I slapped the assailant or kicked him, I'd be arrested for asault.
I know if I see it happen to someone I'll stand up for them. I think that's easier to do when you are a bystander then when you are the victim.
I also don't understand the attitude that makes a person think it is ok to treat a fellow human so badly.
10:25 pm
" I_am_a_person_too January 23rd, 2010
3:26 pm
#36
Wow jf1 you just solved the problem of sexual assault! Did you hear that ladies? All you need to do is stop asking for it! Then it will never ever happen!
Why didn’t I think of that jf1? Probably because I’m just a women with a stupid lady brain. "
...in your case, yes. As evidenced by the fact that you attempt to use sarcasm to cover your inability to understand plain English.
10:28 pm
...I'm not one of the many guys out there who think that assault victims "ask for it" much less "deserve it" but you clearly don't get what I said. Even worse your sarcasm is a thinly-veiled attempt to *rewrite* what I said. You're showing little respect for what I wrote and as such I have little sympathy for you. Be a dumb-ass and suffer the consequences of it.
10:31 pm
"The rest of the night was terrible because he kind of followed me around from a distance, throwing beer-ice at me and generally taunting me. What a douche! Seriously, what makes guys, or anyone for that matter, think that it’s ok to treat someone that way?"
Their dumb-ass friends and their lack of "home training"? I don't know...just a guess...
Of course maybe he didn't have any friends, not having found a bunch of guys who were douchebags like he was, who wouldn't horn in on his "action", and since clearly his "game" wasn't on that night he was left to follow you like a barking dog. Except with ice.
The thing is, looking back on it now, what would you have done that would have been more effective than just walking away from him yet remaining within the area of the performance?
10:35 pm
"How could I forget that I committed the crime of having breasts and hips and those poor men just couldn’t control themselves!"
...Cathy Lanier has breasts and hips, do you think that she has "poor men" rubbing up on her and getting away with it, blaming it on their natural instincts?
What's your excuse?
If you're going to say that the whole situation is entirely the fault of the man, then how can you claim any responsibility for anything in your life, otherwise? Why isn't that "fully dependent on men" also?
Yet another woman who wants to have her cake and eat it, too. You're not responsible for the bad things that happen to you, only the good things. The bad things are always someone elses' fault, yes?
12:52 pm
We get it jf1, dumb bitches deserve it! Shut up,please.
11:32 am
Lizrd,
Isn't it amazing how simply wanting to go out in public without being assaulted in some way is called "wanting to have your cake and eat it too"?
Thanks, jf1. Your arguments don't make any sense, but your views towards women come through loud and clear.
7:45 pm
I wasn't groped but something just as worse happened to me. I was sitting on the metro train staring out the window when the say the reflextion of the person sitting across from me. My eye sight was blurry at first because I was half way awake. Once my eye sight adjusted I say that person which was a man sitting there and rubbing his erection and looking and smiling right at me. I was in so much shock. I didn't know what to do but get up and go to another sit. At the next stop he got off the train. I felt weird all day. I wished I would have done something but I know his defense would be "I didn't touch you or I was rubbing my leg."
7:52 pm
WOW! FOLKS STILL COMIN UP WITH STORIES.
2:52 am
So, this groping incident didn't happen in DC, but it does show this sort of thing can happen anywhere:
Woman Allegedly Groped at Disney Park Ride:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=7251789
Amusingly, the ride had one of those photos-for-tourists so there's a photo showing the aftermath. It sums up women's confusion and fear perfectly.
But, I suppose a woman at Disneyland is clearly "asking for it" and is only trying to "have her cake and eat it too," right?
3:51 am
The whole victim blaming concept seems to be receiving a great deal of attention and really needs to be developed a little further. First, there is no contradiction between the premises that a) a man is fully responsible for being a perpetrator of a crime, and b) a woman is responsible for not preventing that crime from occuring. If anybody can spot the contradiction, let me know. I emphasize this point because some people on this forum think that somehow (b) diminishes the forcefulness of (a.) Take for example a thief in a store. He may be able to steal a candy bar because the clerk isn't looking, but that doesn't somehow make him any less of a thief.
Now, in the this same case we have to ask ourselves whether the clerk is morally responsible for not catching the thief if he/she is drunk and talking on the phone. Well, if it was my store and my employee was drunk and talking on the phone, then I would fire him/her. In other words, if we're in a risky situation and we don't take the appropriate precautions, we are considered morally culpable for our neglect. We shouldn't however conclude that this makes us morally culpable for the other persons act.
The logic of those who insist that rape victims are responsible for their rape, i.e. the actions of another person, is easily parodied. Suppose I am responsible for being raped because I wear tight jeans. So, because my tight jeans make the man want to rape me I am to blame. O.K., but what if my tight jeans cause the man to want to rape another woman. Things become a little tricky. What if my tight jeans make him want to rape, but then he has a change of heart and does great works. Should I take the credit? Seems silly.
6:37 am
The whole victim blaming concept seems to be receiving a great deal of attention and really needs to be developed a little further. First, there is no contradiction between the premises that a) a man is fully responsible for being a perpetrator of a crime, and b) a woman is responsible for not preventing that crime from occuring. If anybody can spot the contradiction, let me know. I emphasize this point because some people on this forum think that somehow (b) diminishes the forcefulness of (a.) Take for example a thief in a store. He may be able to steal a candy bar because the clerk isn't looking, but that doesn't somehow make him any less of a thief.
Now, in the this same case we have to ask ourselves whether the clerk is morally responsible for not catching the thief if he/she is drunk and talking on the phone. Well, if it was my store and my employee was drunk and talking on the phone, then I would fire him/her. In other words, if we're in a risky situation and we don't take the appropriate precautions, we are considered morally culpable for our neglect. We shouldn't however conclude that this makes us morally culpable for the other persons act.
The logic of those who insist that rape victims are responsible for their rape, i.e. the actions of another person, is easily parodied. Suppose I am responsible for being raped because I wear tight jeans. So, because my tight jeans make the man want to rape me I am to blame. O.K., but what if my tight jeans cause the man to want to rape another woman. Things become a little tricky. What if my tight jeans make him want to rape, but then he has a change of heart and does great works. Should I take the credit? This also seems silly.
Finally, and I believe most importantly, sexual assault causes trauma. Trauma is a psychological condition involving excess feelings of guilt. Those who castigate people who are in a state of trauma are being cruel and counterproductive. Name one study or credible therapist who would recommend blaming a women for her rape after she has been raped!
We must remain cognizant of the fact that philosophical arguments about culpability don't give us the "medical," insight necessary to understand how to deal with trauma victims. It's kind of puzzling, but just because you conceptually recognize that a woman has been neglectful, it doesn't thereby follow that you should inform her of that. Time and place.
8:02 am
"In other words, if we’re in a risky situation and we don’t take the appropriate precautions, we are considered morally culpable for our neglect."
Morally culpable for our neglect in the story of a woman getting raped means exactly what? That she's trusted the wrong man? That she drinks on a night out with friends? That she left the house?
Because we can agree on the drunk clerk doing something he shouldn't do. In most contracts it's specified you shouldn't drink while working. I don't think there should be a "woman contract" that specifies I shouldn't drink while being a woman.
9:04 am
@Dorothy
Take another analogy. A man gets drunk at a bar where people have frequently had fights. A guy beats him up. I believe the man who went to the bar is behaving irresponsibly and the man who beat him up is clearly a thug.
You're correct there is no "contract," but there is common sense. If the man went to a bar that wasn't really dangerous yet still had all the risks associated with a bar, I wouldn't call him irresponsible. Similarly, women behave irresponsibly in very few instances in which they are raped. But those instances do in fact exist. Once again the fact that the woman has behaved irresponsibly doesn't negate the fact that the man may have raped her anyways or that he was a creep.
I know we have a good rapport as of yet, but lest we start calling me a rape apologist, I must remind you that if this is true, I'm also much more. I'm a crime apologist, a shark attack apologist, a getting ripped off at the pawn shop apologist, getting ripped of by an infomercial apologist, being disinformed by Glenn Beck apologist...
9:42 am
@Banyan: I don't say you're a rape apologist. I think I understand what you try to say. But I think you are ... a bit clueless. (I don't want to insult you here, please, don't take it as such.)
See, your analogies for men have additional "dangerous" conditions:
"A man gets drunk at a bar where people have frequently had fights. A guy beats him up."
The aproppriate analogy to the victim-blaming would be: "A man gets drunk at a bar. A guy beats him up."
What we feminists think is that it is unfair to lay the blame at the door of "being women". We dream of a society where women can go whereever they want and do whatever they want without being raped (and then being told: "See, you're a woman! You can't do the things men can do, because you'll get raped and then it's your fault.").
9:54 am
But what if the woman attends a frat party where one of her friends had been raped by a brother. Is she then irresponsible? It's important to remember that just because we can construct instances in which a woman is irresponsible, it doesn't at all follow that most or even a sizable amount of rapes occur with an irresponsible woman, or that it was her fault. She is never at fault for rape, because the rapist behaved voluntarily and is therefore fully responsible for the rape. You can't be responsible for other people's voluntary behavior. It only takes one rapist to tango.
10:00 am
What if a man goes to the same bar a friend of him had been beaten up? What if he uses the same street to go home after their night out, where his other friend had been robbed?
Men are allowed to go to frat parties and bars and get drunk. Men do that all the time. And yet, our culture doesn't see a problem with banning women from doing the same. In the name of their safety.
10:17 am
You couldn't imagine a person blaming a man for getting beat up while frequenting a rowdy bar and then discouraging him from attending again? Now I don't blame him for reasons aforementioned, but I do insists that he behaved irresponsibly.
10:36 am
I don't know any rowdy bars, so maybe that's why I can't imagine a man being beaten up. I just know that a few men got beaten up at night in the subway and a woman got raped. I never heard anybody say 'He's a man! At night at the subway!', but I heard a lot of 'A woman! At night at the subway!'
And that's not okay, because it restricts women's behaviour in a way it doesn't restrict men's.
10:38 am
... and that of course should have meant "maybe that's why I can't imagine a beaten up man being blamed."
10:40 am
Banyan, your comment at #53 is spot on:
She is never at fault for rape, because the rapist behaved voluntarily and is therefore fully responsible for the rape. You can’t be responsible for other people’s voluntary behavior. It only takes one rapist to tango.
Unfortunately a lot of people don't see this, because we are constantly berating women to avoid getting raped, when women are raped there is a tendency to blame the woman for not taking every precaution ever. (Even though if she had engaged in the same behavior and there had been no rapist around, it wouldn't have mattered.) Which is why it is often so important to avoid talking about what the victim could have done to prevent the assault, because most people and the media tend to blame the victim, and every conversation that reinforces this concept pulls us away from the real problem, The rapist.
I would argue, that the time to discuss rape prevention and avoidance is not after someone has been raped. This is just not a conversation that should happen in conjunction with talking about an actual rape. If we're going to talk about an actual rape, we should talk about the actual rapist, and why they perpetrated that crime.
(I also think that there is a ridiculous balancing act women are constantly forced to do between avoiding rape, and trying to have real relationships with men. "Nice guys" and non rapist men get angry when women talk about assuming all men are rapists. But if we DON"T assume all men are rapists, and end up alone with a guy who also happens to be a rapist and get raped it is suddenly our fault for not assuming all men are rapists. (or having some magical rapist-dar, do you think we could get all the potential rapists to get tatoos on their forehads or something so women can have relationships with non rapist men without fearing being raped?) Ultimately you can see ho this is an impossible position for women to be in.)
10:57 am
Right, and you can make the argument like this. A woman has been raped. She is therefore in a state of trauma. Trauma is a medical condition. Therefore, we must consult medical professionals. Medical professionals insist that blaming the victim for their "arguably," poor choices is counterproductive and cruel. Therefore no rational and kind human being would ever blame a rape victim who is in a state of trauma. Seems pretty solid.
11:23 am
Arguably you can say that she is in a state of trauma, and certainly it's a medical condition, but that doesn't mean that "medical professionals" are correct in their opinion of what should be done and what is what, from that point on.
You keep assigning genius to professionals. They're just doofs with a degree. It's one thing to consult them, quite another to think that everything they say is correct.
11:25 am
re #56: nonsense, you're burdening the issue with your opinion simply because you haven't heard of anyone saying that these men were at fault (in any way) for getting mugged or beaten up in the subway. You then extrapolate from your conclusion based on that lack of information to assigning a erroneous status to the entire issue at large.
Basically, compound logical fallacies.
11:31 am
@Banyan:
"It only takes one rapist to tango."
Great quote!!
11:32 am
"What we feminists think is that it is unfair to lay the blame at the door of “being women”. We dream of a society where women can go whereever they want and do whatever they want without being raped (and then being told: “See, you’re a woman! You can’t do the things men can do, because you’ll get raped and then it’s your fault.”)."
That's almost spot on. Too many women think that the world is exactly the way that they think that it is, and then they get upset when they find out that it's not. It never was, it never is, it never can be exactly "the way that you think that it is". They then compound the mistake by assuming that it is NOW the way that they think that it is NOW. Regardless of whatever nonsensical reasoning they used to get from stage A to stage B.
The ongoing mistake is to think that you know how things work, how things should be and how things are. You don't. You have to deal with people as they are and deal with what they do and save your opinions with regards to what they ought to be like, what they ought to do, for your own decision-making and stop living in a fucking fantasyland of your own imagination. Don't go around putting words and thoughts into the heads of others. You're bound to be let down when you find out that they just don't think and act like you do much less like you think that they ought to. Now you can come up with all kinds of reasons for that but the bottom line is that that is how it is.
Stop trying to dictate the world around you and deal with it as it really is.
11:36 am
Hear that, Ladies? Just give up on your civil rights. jf1 doesn't think it's going to happen.
11:38 am
@jf1 So, the medical professionals can determine that she has a disorder, but they can't determine what will aggravate that disorder?
11:41 am
"(I also think that there is a ridiculous balancing act women are constantly forced to do between avoiding rape, and trying to have real relationships with men. “Nice guys” and non rapist men get angry when women talk about assuming all men are rapists. But if we DON”T assume all men are rapists, and end up alone with a guy who also happens to be a rapist and get raped it is suddenly our fault for not assuming all men are rapists."
no, no no no no.
no no no no no no no
continuing on with the delusion will get you nowhere.
It simply does not make sense to assume that all men are rapists especially when they have not raped anyone. That's patently unfair prejudicial behavior.
You don't understand what I mean, go look up prejudice in the dictionary.
Good fucking grief. So you "end up alone with a rapist and get raped" and that justifies assuming that all men are rapists. I hardly even know where to start with this.
Wellok let's take it one step at a time.
A) no man is a rapist until he has raped someone.
b) it's hardly unexpected that a woman will end up with a man who has raped someone.
c) the issue going forward is whether or not a woman is raped, not what the man has done in the past (unless you want to predict his future behavior based on past behavior).
d) if you want to treat all men as rapists based on your fear of being raped, that's fine. Just remember that you are having a dishonest relationship with all men unless you tell them this.
Beyond this point, I doubt that this is worthy of further comment.
Now, in terms of your comments of a "ridiculous balancing act", sorry but that's life. You have a choice. Stay with men who you are sure will not rape you, or go out and date new men and take that chance with them. Oh by the way, any of the men that you already know *could* rape you.
That's not the same thing as assuming that they ARE rapists. You want to say that they are "potential rapists", be my guest. That might hurt someones' feelings but in the abstract it's entirely true. Of course you may change your opinion about that (and I'm sure that some men will argue that they would never rape a woman under any conditions) but realistically that's true.
But then by the same token, all women are "potential rapists" as well. The only people who can't rape you are those lying in a box 6 feet under the ground. If you really want to be technical about it.
So somewhere between now and whenever you begin to have healthy relationships with men, you will figure out how to deal with the risk of rape without labeling every man that you meet as a potential rapist, much less assuming that they *are* rapists. Have a good time with that. You're clearly not there right now.
11:42 am
#65
They can generalize, sure. They may even be right in specific cases. Doesn't mean that everything that comes out of their bleeding mouths is going to be correct.
11:46 am
jf1, why is it that you cannot understand an "if, then" statement? That passage DID NOT say all men are rapists. It said, IF we don't act like that, THEN people will say it's our fault.
11:48 am
So under what conditions would a woman who is in a state of trauma be assisted by the reminder that she behaved recklessly by attending a frat party wherein her friend had been raped? (The frat party example is my proof that there are at least some circumstances in which a woman had behaved irresponsibly.)
11:50 am
"Medical professionals insist that blaming the victim for their “arguably,” poor choices is counterproductive and cruel."
They can say that all they want, it's still just their opinion.
Reality sucks that way sometimes, and certainly if anything was "cruel" in this situation, it was the rape itself. I don't think that it's a great idea to automatically and uniformly group honest opinions about the situation with the rape itself. Fostering the delusions of rape victims isn't exactly "productive" in my opinion.
The problem is that "victimization" is often in the eyes of the so-called "victim" herself. The last thing that we need is to empower people to determine that they themselves are victims, not to mention on top of just picking people to blame as the responsible party for their "victimhood". Now, all this hue and cry will be raised because someone says that they have been raped. You don't want to forget that that's just their claim, until it's actually proven.
And it can be proven on more than one basis.
But it is easy for someone to point fingers at someone else and say that that person raped them. I think that most people have learned to not take these claims at face value, so certainly one problem for the claimant is that their claim will be dismissed for lack of supporting evidence.
Obviously that possibility would be traumatic to the "victim" if they are quite sure, in their own heads, that they have been raped and indeed have made such a claim. So are we to not tell them this for fear of "traumatizing" them? What about the whole process of trial by jury? At what point do rape "victims" get "traumatized" by that, not to mention that their accuser may not even be arrested, may not be convicted, may indeed be vindicated in court?
None of these "real world" issues would ever be placed in front of them if we were to put the "traumatization" of the "victim" first and foremost. And frankly if the whole "rape" was just a delusion they need to snap out of it.
Claims of rape, accusations of rape, these are not things to be taken lightly, no more than rape itself or the possibility of being raped. At some point we have to get down to brass tacks and people have to deal with the reality of the situation. There's no room for mollycoddling bullshit-artists at this point.
11:54 am
JF1,
I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. It IS ridiculous for women to assume that all men are rapists. That is unreasonable and gets in the way of having real relationships with non rapists. (I also fail to see how potential rapist and actual rapist are any different. Either one assumes that if the individual chose to they would take advantage of you against your will)
Unfortunately, It is also impossible for women to tell what men might be rapists.
And yet, if a woman gets raped she is often greeted with scorn and told she should have known better.
You don't think this is ridiculous? You don't think this is an unfair position for anyone to be in, to have to police ones own behavior and simultaneously predict who might or might not be a violent criminal?
You immediately jump to my relationship problems (which I don't have, btw). I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about women in general who are supposed to simultaneously protect themselves, while also protecting the delicate fee fees of men who don't want to be treated like potential rapists.
I am saying it is unfair for the onus to protect onesself from rape to continue to be on the victims (male or female.)
The problem is the rapists, and that's what we should be focusing on, not how victims can do a better job not being victims.
11:58 am
O.K. but if we're quite certain that she is in a state of trauma and she has in fact been raped, then we should avoid criticizing her for the poor decisions she made that occurred on the night of the rape.
12:01 pm
Banyan,
I'm pretty sure she has already internalized enough "it is your fault if you get raped" messages that she wont need someone elses help to blame herself. We've already told women in this society that if they get raped it is their fault. As a woman, I would immediately blame myself if I got raped. External assistance is not required.
12:07 pm
Jf1,
I sincerely hope the next time something bad happens to you, everyone around you takes time out of their day to tell you it is your fault because you are a giant fuck up.
I'm sure you will find this a helpful part of dealing with your bad shit.
Except I somehow doubt that you ever listen to anything anyone else says ever, so why would it matter, right? You are clearly the most correct person to ever exist, how could you ever possibly make a mistake, eveyrone else is just stupid if they think what you did was wrong.
12:08 pm
Wow...
I am all for an icepick to the groin for the gropers. They get no mercy...
12:40 pm
it's important to point out, only because some people STILL don't get it, that it's not just attractive women who get groped/assaulted - it happens to both sexes and all ages. sexual assault is about power - that's why it sucks so much even if the assault is comparatively less involved. the feeling that one can't protect oneself, whether that's in a club, a crowded bus, a bad neighborhood, a job, yr home, or a court of law - that's why these acts are extra potent. read "A Woman Scorned" by Peggy Reeves Sanday. we have an entire system, legal on down, that thwarts and abuses even the bravest people who try to speak up.
6:45 pm
I would like make a few points here:
First--It's kind of a fine line between groping/sexual assualt and a romantic caress
Example: A thirteen-year-old girl (me) and a thirteen-year-old boy (my boyfriend, with whom I was wildly in love at the time) are together at the girl's house. She sits down on the bed, he sits next to her, and one thing leads to another and they're both lying down, he kisses her, and even though she didn't really want him to kiss her she kisses him back, because she loves him and doesn't want to hurt his feelings. His hands are everywhere on her, breasts, thighs...crotch and buttocks are avoided, but little else, but she enjoys it immensely, because she loves him. She was kind of scared, though, and uncomfortable with how far the situation veered out of her control. Has she then been sexually assualted? Should her boyfriend then be labeled a groper because she didn't tell him she was uncomfortable with what his hands were doing, even though she liked it? My answer is no. In that instance, it was her fault, she could easily have told him that she wasn't comfortable with such intimacy and he would have left her alone--she even did say that a few minutes later, and he left her alone. The only reason she was frightened is because her limits happened to be more stringent than his, and she did enjoy his touches, she kissed him back and enjoyed it, etc. My opinion is that it was entirely the girl's fault. However, this may be because of course I was part of the situation, and it's easy enough to say that the victim should never blame themselves and they've got some kind of masochistic matyr complex if they do blame themselves, but when you're the victim it's very different. Even though I was barely even the victim of sexual harrassment, I think my experience can be applied to full-on rape. What if a girl and her boyfriend are embracing, kissing, etc., and he wants to have sex with her, and she really doesn't want to have sex with him but she loves him and doesn't want to hurt his feelings, and would really enjoy sex with him? And they have sex anyway? Is it her fault or his? Has she really been raped? What if she told him no and then kissed him? Would that have negated her denial? It's hard to say. But my second point, which may seem to contradict what I've already said, is this: the victim of a rape is never at fault. Perhaps she could have avoided the rape, perhaps she made a decision which led to the rape, but if there was not a rapist in the situation she would not have been raped. You can't argue with that, not even you, jf1. She may blame herself, because we live in a culture where victims are *taught* to blame themselves, that absolutely does not mean anyone else can blame her, and it absolutely does not mean that she is at fault, or he, whichever, male or female the attacker, not the victim, is to blame.
7:18 pm
Once when I was walking home from work, I was assaulted and harassed by a guy on a bicycle. He kept circling around to smack my ass and yell disgusting things at me. I tried to kick his front wheel in, yank out his brake line, etc. He kept messing with me. When I got home, I called the police. The cop that showed up literally told me that it sounded like the guy was just having a little fun. He was also visibly disgusted with my filthy, unladylike mouth when I repeated some of the things my harasser said to me, upon his request.
So all the guys in here telling women how empowering it is to fight back and call the police can suck it.
Also, this other time a guy grabbed my butt and I whirled around and punched him in the chest. He had the nerve to be surprised. Dumbass.
10:56 pm
"Cathy Lanier has breasts and hips"
She also has a gun and a police band walkie-talkie and mace and handcuffs and a billy club and a badge. I don't, and most of that stuff is illegal to carry in DC unless you're a cop.