"If it’s not such a traumatic experience that you would be affected by it"

If an experience is traumatic enough, someone may not realize it immediately. I have not been raped, but I am dealing with PTSD following my service in Iraq. When I returned home, I felt fine, and I seemed like a normal 22 year old guy. A year later, I began having nightmares and recalling repressed memories. I began abusing drugs and alcohol, and watched my life fall apart around me for the next four years, the entire time denying that I was affected by my experiences.

It wasn't until someone very close to me, herself a victim of "traditional rape," sat me down, and shared with me the exact same feelings that I was having that I realized that I had PTSD. The thing is, her experiences seem so much more traumatizing than mine.

My point is that you cannot begin to imagine how something that might not appear traumatizing to you can be traumatizing. I hope that you never have to experience something that is so horrible, but don't minimize something that happens based on how someone perceives it or appears to perceive it in the immediate aftermath.

Chances are, non-verbal for foreplay and verbal for sex is *probably* fine... I emphasize probably, because everyone is different. It also depends on how heavy the foreplay is. I have definitely had encounters where the guy's idea of "foreplay" is to try to push as many boundaries as he can, and it's not fun...I want to enjoy the experience, and if he's trying to "steal a base," I have to be on my guard instead of getting lost in the moment. (Needless to say, those encounters didn't go anywhere!)

Really??? Women would be "weirded out" if you asked to have oral sex on them? Honestly, I'm surprised...oral sex is sex to a lot of people, so that's probably one where you should ask, because someone really could be upset about that if they weren't prepared for it.

And, of course if you're in a relationship with someone, you can discuss what you like in the bedroom. If, between the two of you, oral sex is always open-season, that's fine if you both communicate that you're okay with that.

Never, ever, use that leftover food argument again. It's extremely insulting. If you think someone's sexuality is no more important than a tupperware full of linguine in the fridge, you need to start respecting your partners more.

For instance, do you think this is acceptable?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_are_sleeping_and_your_partner_is_constantly_waking_you_up_by_sexually_manipulating_your_body_is_that_sexual_abuse

How on earth do you know "if women prefer men not to ask"?? The only way you know is if you ask THAT PARTICULAR PERSON what THEY want. Now, if you two have a clear and explicit agreement as to what consent means between the two of you, go for it. Tell your partner, "Honey, if this, this, and this is going on...is it okay if I go right ahead and have sex with you?" Lots of people act out fantasies, and that's totally okay, as long as people CLEARLY communicate beforehand and know their "safe phrases" and "signals" are. In all seriousness, you might want to do some research in the BDSM community (or read Savage Love) and see that there are very clear rules for how you set boundaries and establish consent...

Also, did you read Wren's account of her rape above? What do you have to say about it? Have you learned anything about how hard it can be to say no?

1. Sex without consent IS rape. Period. (We're defining "consent" as one party not being true, genuine participant in the sex act. Non-consent can take many forms--from screaming and fighting to dissociating completely and lying motionless.)
2. It is fairly safe to say that anyone who initiates a sex act who is not deeply mentally ill can tell when their partner (male or female) is non-consenting from these verbal or non-verbal cues.
3. It is usually safer to specifically ask for explicit verbal consent. This removes all your worries about accidentally ending up in jail for raping someone. It only takes a moment to check.
4. Yes, verbally asking for consent isn't the most common protocol, but it is far from unheard of. It does not ruin the moment, it only makes it hotter. And if you're worried that it's uncommon...help us make it more common. Rape is scary. Mutual respect and consent is sexy. But we live in a backwards world that leads us to believe rape is sexy and consent is a pain. (Read this http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

You seem like a well-meaning person, but don't kid yourself into thinking that what a rapist does could be anything but his own fault. There are many times when the victim even DOES verbally say no and the rapist STILL tries to make a case that he could tell she really wanted it. And a lot of times, they get away with it. You say that you have a family member who was raped. Wouldn't you want to protect other people from the pain he/she went through? Wouldn't you want to make 100% sure that you're not causing someone that pain? That's all asking for consent is. Making 100% sure. When you consider the consequences, it's not much to ask.

You poor thing!!! How could you possibly be asked to face AWKWARDNESS (gasp!) when the other party is only facing pain, violation, helplessness, and lasting psychological trauma?

It's not just "prevention planning." It's giving a damn about the other person's thoughts and feelings. It's recognizing that they own their own body, you don't!

You need to ask someone for permission to use their credit card, don't you? It's not "prevention planning" just in case you get accused of theft. It is quite simply that using someone's credit card without permission IS BY DEFINITION theft.

And, have you HEARD about the experiences of rape survivors who were raped while drunk?? I assure you, they're VERY traumatizing. How extraordinarily insensitive of you to think otherwise.

If you need a primer, read Wren at #445. Then tell me all about how women need to be "educated" to respond and how alcohol involvement in rape somehow makes it less traumatic.

I could get on board with a verbal consent protocol as long as it was made clear that this proposal has a few drawbacks.
1) It's really awkward. It's kind of rape prevention planning and it isn't the way a lot of healthy and sane people have sex. I say it's rape prevention planning because in a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary. It's like a pre-nuptual agreement. It probably should become the standard, but it's not nearly as smooth as the alternative.

Don't you think it's MORE FRIGHTENING that someone could BE RAPED by some idiot who thinks they can read body language??

In all of your calculations, are you only concerned with your own potential to go to prison? Doesn't it worry you that you might have caused another human being lasting trauma, pain, and psychological damage? Don't you feel a basic moral obligation not to take advantage of or violate your fellow human beings?

Also, think about how many things women are told to do to prevent rape--don't wear this, don't drink that, don't go there, don't say that, don't do that, and on and on and ON. For all of that burden that gets placed on us...for your part, why can't you just ask?

The vast majority of rape victims do protest to some degree, but many others are impaired in some way--taken by surprise, held down, intoxicated, threatened, etc. And, yet, whatever happens, people are always eager to declare they didn't protest "enough."

Disclaimers.
I am here having a philosophical argument about an issue that is very emotional in nature. I hate rape and rapists and have had a family member who is raped. Even though I know I will never commit rape, the notion that I could go to jail for misreading body language is incredibly frightening

I'm sorry, but let's not get caught up in the "gatekeeper" stereotype, shall we? Women do not exist in a perpetual state of consent, so don't think that you have the prerogative to proceed as you like. It's fundamentally disrespectful, to put it mildly. Don't just keep going after her and expect her to have to police the encounter and her body--actually care about what SHE wants, because she's a human being and the point of this is to enjoy an encounter WITH, not on, at, or to, another person.

And, it's not "for the sake of a few." It is for all woman, so that you don't assume that you know what we want and ignore what we really want (or don't want).

In your rape scenario, how exactly did the male get consent? Did he? If not, he DOES NOT get to make his "best guess" and if he proceeds without consent he is liable for the consequences.

However, if I was a juror and the argument for rape was body language and the lack of verbal requests from the male I would have a hard time sending him to jail.

The main point that I want to emphasize is that if you are the one initiating the sex act, it is your responsibility to be absolutely sure that you have consent before it begins.

Now, especially in beginning relationships, dates, friend situations, etc. it is ABSOLUTELY NOT acceptable to get as far as you can with the excuse that you may have "misread the situation." Clear and enthusiastic consent is required. In these scenarios, I will say that it really, really has to be verbal.

I honestly don't think any reasonable person could fail to tell the difference between enthusiastic non-verbal consent and paralysis/terror/dissociation, but the brutal fact of the matter there are many men who subsequently claimed she "was totally into it" or "secretly wanted it" (or some variant) even while saying no, or struggling to get away.

Furthermore, just because someone is consenting to (and enthusiastic about) some foreplay or sex acts, does not mean they're consenting to go all the way. So, if you haven't been intimate a lot before, be absolutely, totally clear, because everyone is different. Unless you ask and she says yes, you don't know what the situation is and you have no right to proceed until you do.

Now, for long-established relationships, it is generally more likely that you know what consent means (and looks like) for that person. As Melissa has mentioned, couples may have a "shorthand" between each other, but that in NO way means that the state of consent is unclear, or that one party gets to assume they can go as far as they want just because the two of them are in a relationship. It still could (and probably should) be verbal, but that can be as simple as "Okay?" or "Do you wanna?" or "How 'bout it, honey?" (I won't bother with any other variations...). Remember, a significant portions of rape happen *within* relationships, so one partner is being made to have sex when they don't want to. Now, if you're both enthusiastically kissing each other, and tearing each other's clothes off, AND you have a clearly established sexual relationship, it's almost certainly fine.

The definition of rape is that someone was made to have sex against his or her will. Assuming you can tell if someone is willing can be dangerous (not to mention very painful and traumatizing for her!) so you're not safe unless you ask.

"By the way, you’ve made plenty of caustic statements that attempt to portray me as a defender of rape, including in this very thread. You neglected to mention that the statements that you quoted from me referred to women who specifically clarified to the survey taker that they had NOT been raped. What you quoted from me was speculation about reasons why they would have considered their consensual experience as less than ideal, while not going so far as to describe it as rape. If you call such subtleties scary, then you’re lambasting the right of women to describe their own experiences in their own words — something that feminists routinely deny women who assert that they have not been as victimized as ideologues like you would imply that they have."

No, you idiot, it referred to women who experienced attacks that MET THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF RAPE, as we already proved to you. Lots of women (and men) don't know the legal definition of rape. Women in the comments told you about their own experiences of denial after their rapes, and how hard it was for them to have the courage to call their experience "rape," and you showed astounding disrespect.

Answering the question "Have you ever had sex when you didn't want to because someone held you down or threatened physical force?" does not mean your sexual experience was "less than ideal" It means it was RAPE.

Rob:
“Although, I’ll bet if we questioned someone like Wren, who wasn’t traditionally raped, a little more closely about her drunken experience with her room-mate
(First off I never said he was a roommate. He lived in the same house with myself and ten other interns, but the guys and girls had separate rooms, separate bathroom, etc. AND according to house rules, boys are girls were NOT allowed in each other’s room. There was plenty of common area for mingling, no need to take it to the bedroom),
where he just came into her room, and the mere act of him lying on top of her prevented her from saying “no,” we would find a lot of things that would bring the entire situation into question a lot more than she lets on.“Like, where was she drinking? At a pub, or at home? Who was she with? Was she drinking with him? Who was drunker? Does she have any clear recollection of her behaviour – she was drunk after all.”

THESE QUESTIONS ARE VICTIM BLAMING. Does it really have any bearing if I was drinking at home or out on the town, whether I was with friends or not? Would the answer really cause a logical person to say, “Yeah, she was drinking in town with her friends, OF COURSE SHE DESERVED TO BE RAPED”

But I will answer the questions nonetheless. I was at a friend’s house; all of the interns I lived with were there. It was something we had done several times on a Friday night – share a few drinks and watch a movie. So Rob, does that mean I deserved what I got? And yes I remember rather well what happened. I did not say I was falling over drunk, I was over the legal limit, but I still had my bearings and remember what happened.

“Does she even recall her own words before she retired to bed? If not, how can she recall the events after?”

Yes, I left the party with two of the guys and one girl who was the designated driver. When we arrived back at the house, the one guy ( not the guy who raped me) walked me to my door. I said goodnight, entered my room, CLOSED THE DOOR, brushed my teeth, set my alarm clock and got into bed. It was 12:30 AM. I remember because I had set my alarm for 6AM and I was annoyed with myself that I had stayed out so late and would have to get up in less than six hours. I fell asleep. I woke up some time later (when I caught a glimpse of my clock during the attack it said 2:34). I cannot begin to describe to you what it feels like. I woke up thinking it was so cold, I couldn’t figure out why it was so cold, I had been having a dream about being attacked, I was glad I was awake because the dream was awful, then I realized the weight on my chest, that my clothes were off, that someone was on top of me, and I thought I must be still dreaming, but then I felt him inside of me, the pain was excruciating, I knew my nightmare was a reality. I kept trying to tell myself that I was crazy that this couldn’t be happening. That he was a nice guy who would never do that to me. He told me before that he was a Christian who like me believed that sex should be saved for marriage, so I just was in such shock. I couldn’t align what I knew about him with what he was doing to me. It made no sense. I grabbed the blanket and rolled over, hoping he was drunk and he would go away. STUPID me. At that point I really thought he was just acting crazy drunk, that he didn’t know what he was doing. Then he grabbed me roughly turned me back over, ripped the blanket away and held me down. I know I was screaming NO NO NO NO NO over and over again in my head, but the sound didn’t reach my lips. I shook my head no, I cried, and I prayed that it would all end quickly. When I finally realized he wasn’t going to stop I just tried to retreat in my mind. Because – what was I going to do, Try to fight him off? And even if I succeeded where would I go? I had no clothes on, so what I was supposed to do - run naked through the house? And then go where, where would I go where he wouldn’t just follow me? I gave in to the fate at hand, I surrendered and went limp. I will not go on with the details of what he did to me, suffice it to say that he did ever possible sex act he could in the most degrading way, I passed in and out of consciousness of what was happening. And at some point when he was shoving my head into the pillow I passed out and did not wake up again till my alarm clock went off. Thankfully he was gone.

“She claims they were “just friends”, and yet, it is very difficult for men and women to maintain a platonic relationship (Harry met Sally), and I have known a plethora of “friends” who agreed to be room-mates (ONCE AGAIN WE WERE NOT ROOMATES) while still knowing that there was more to it than merely that, and it is often a ruse to try and create a relationship… if so, which one wanted the relationship more?”

As I have said before, he was just a friend. And I disagree with you that men and women cannot be just friends. I think that the right kind of people can be friends. True friendship is based on mutual respect for the other person, and a genuine care for them – sometimes that can translate into romantic feelings, but it is by no means a given that that is going to happen. As I stated before I work in a male-dominated field, during college and even in my current position, I have many male friends. I do not think of them in a romantic way and I am pretty sure most of them don’t think of me in that way either. I am sorry if you have never known true friendship with a woman without wanting her in a sexual way.

“How long did she live with him after this crime?”

We lived in the SAME HOUSE, not TOGETHER for a week after that. I am not sure of the point of your question. Should I have gone off and lived on the streets to not be in the same house as him? Was I the one who was supposed to run away? I was in a strange city with a nonrefundable plain ticket that was for the following week. Maybe if I had been in a right state of mind I would have gone to the police, tried to get him kicked out of the house, etc. But I had fallen into the common reaction of self blame.
At the time I was so ashamed that I had LET someone do that to me, that I basically shut down. Oh yes, I fell into the victim-blaming of myself – I was drinking, maybe if I hadn’t been I would have been able to fight him off or I wouldn’t have been in as deep a sleep and would have woken up sooner. I blamed myself for trusting him, stupid stupid me. I blamed myself for thinking that since we were all very religious that anything bad could happen in the house. I blamed myself for not sleeping with a weapon – hello single girl in a strange city, of course I should have had a weapon in my room. But after a long time of blaming myself for what happened, I came to realize that I did not invite him in, I did not take off my clothes, I did not tell him he could have sex with me – he chose to do those things with no care for me or my consent or my feelings. He was the only one to blame.

“Was he dating another woman by the time they ended their cohabitation?“

I am not sure what this question has to do with anything – just because a man is in a relationship doesn’t mean he can’t hurt someone. Also most rape has more to do with power and control than sexual gratification.

“And further, did she charge him with rape? If not, why not?”

No, and I will tell you why not. Just because I have finally stopped blaming myself, and realized that it was his fault, doesn’t mean I can bring myself to ruin his life. I know how crazy that must sound. But I honestly do hope and pray that what he did to me was his once and only time raping someone, I do hope and pray that he is a better person now. The damage is done and him going to jail doesn’t guarantee me my life back the way it was, it doesn’t even guarantee me an apology from him. You also know as I stated earlier that I did inquire about possibly prosecuting him. It was something I considered for a long time, and if I ever find out that he did this to someone else will follow through on (because that will mean that he has not changed and never will and doesn’t deserve a third chance). I have no expectation of getting him prosecuted should that occur, but I will press charges for the record.
So there goes your theory on me and other survivors wanting to destroy the lives of the men/women that did this to us. I did not call rape or run and tell all his friends. I have not even confronted him about it -because it is not about him, it is about me and what he did to me and how much my life has changed because of what happened. I have struggled, but I survived and his crime will silence me no longer. I have no reason to stay silent. I believe in activism, and making others aware of the real dangers out there. If I can help one other survivor or educate one person, then I will have succeeded in using my experience for good. And in the end that’s all that really matters.

Rob I am so glad that a misogynist like you buys into the “If you are a victim of a crime, you should feel ashamed and keep quiet about it, because deep down you know you have a reason to feel ashamed.” Survivors know the importance of breaking the silence. Silence only furthers the crime. Speaking out and telling your story are very healing and are very helpful to others who have experienced similar atrocities. Where would we be if no one spoke out to raise awareness and end abuse. RAINN would not be in existence. There would be no domestic violence shelters since heaven knows a woman would never admit (gasp) to being abused by her husband. Silence is deadly. For you to believe that survivors should remain silent shows what kind of a person you really are.

I'm not saying that false accusations are ok; of course they're wrong. But getting so much more upset about false rape accusations than, say, false theft accusations is just silly.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/17/BA6O1BJJSR.DTL#ixzz0cvt2Xe0V

Jeesh, we definitely are living in a rape culture, you injustice apologists

"Please show me ANY evidence that those here have said this doesn’t apply to women. We have said over and over again that it DOES."

...which places the responsibility solely on males? I fail to see how our repeated statements of "all the same rules apply to women who initiate sex" have given you the impression that we don't believe all the same rules apply to women who initiate sex. Talk about being baffled.

"I am quite familiar with the feminist position on male consent and sexual violence against males, and I would not ally with anyone harboring such dangeous views."

If you don't want help, that's truly your choice, so I won't mention it again after this. Just...don't refer to the feminist view on sexual violence against males (namely: that sexual violence against males is 100% unacceptable and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, as we work tirelessly to undo the cultural biases against male rape victims) is "dangerous." You've obviously been exposed to a great deal of victim-blaming, and may have internalized a lot of it. That you would actively consider the people who are fighting hard to help male survivors of sexual abuse "dangerous" is also baffling to me.

Toysoldier–I am very worried for you. Really–very worried.

These scenarios you’re describing are NOT ok. It is NOT acceptable to use someone’s body unless you are absolutely sure the other person is fully in agreement with the sex act. We have repeatedly said this applies to women as well as men.

To which, you accused me of displaying "disingenuous feminist pity." I think this may get at the root of how you are having difficulty getting the help you need. You are so wrapped up in a label of what you think other people (i.e. feminists) believe, that you can't actually listen to what is being said. Rape support resources consistently emphasize that men can be victims of rape, too:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

Furthermore, none of us saying "JUST ASK!" are telling women that they shouldn't say no or shouldn't resist--in fact, in three of the rape scenarios I quoted above, the women DID in fact say no. (I respect the victim's assessment of their risk of physical injury in whether or not to resist). No one is saying women (or men) should be unclear about their sexual desires. What we ARE saying is that it is unacceptable for a man to claim a woman was unclear (in some cases EVEN WHEN SHE SAID NO), and use that as an excuse to rape her.

Also, this being "unclear" is quite simply nonsense. Research shows that a subset of men, the "undetected rapists" regularly single out women who they perceive to be easy targets, are adept at using just enough force to gain compliance but not leave physical evidence. This behavior is CONSCIOUS and INTENTIONAL.

http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/files/RAPE_FACT_SHEET.pdf

So, telling women, "be clearer!" is NOT going to protect them at all.

Melissa, the points are there for people to read. Whether they agree with them or not will likely stem from their general political beliefs. However, all of those pushing the "JUST ASK!" idea have not pushed for women to make their level of consent known. Each time that idea gets brought up someone argues why women cannot inform men of their consent. It is baffling to read because such a view denies women any real agency. Curiously, having watched how men interact with my brother, I have never seen this issue among gay men. I have also never experienced it in any of my sexual encounters with men as an adult. This inability and unwillingness to clearly give or withdraw consent seems to be strictly limited to women (I am unsure whether it occurs with lesbians). Again it is quite baffling.

As for the other comments, considering the nature of my experiences, I am quite familiar with the feminist position on male consent and sexual violence against males, and I would not ally with anyone harboring such dangeous views.

They often don't read or address the original post - except whatever statistical error allows them to dismiss it - and their agenda is always pre-determined and impervious to concession: rape apology and/or denial. Some may begin with caveats about how rape is a problem BUT - and whatever comes after the but is the sum of their real thoughts. Many don't bother with the but.

The point of this post are the bogus analogies which try to frame rape as this detached depersonalized risk like a natural disaster or inherent risk, rather than a crime committed by rapists who are responsible for their wrong actions.

For hardcore rape deniers even the idea of using language which holds rapists responsible for their acts is radical and dangerous and must be shouted down. They act especially threatened if anyone dares touch their absurd rhetorical crutch of the frat party as a free zone in which abuse of half the human population is inevitable. Not only is the frat party a bogus argument, but most rapes occur outside this false context. Thus this thread must be trolled relentlessly until it's about the word "consent" and their little frat party jungle bull is safe from scrutiny.

"It is not about the definition of consent because it should not NEED to be defined.

You know it’s there or it’s not. Definition is not required."

I've been debating how to respond to this, because I honestly don't think you're trying to make excuses for not getting consent. You seem to place a priority on respecting others' wishes, and I applaud you for that.

BUT, not everyone is like you. Therefore, definition most definitely IS required. You have pompous asses like John Dias who think that someone "just passively sitting there" is giving consent and "still deciding if they enjoyed it." You have sickos like Rob who think that someone who says "stop" during a sex act is just being "bitchy" and respecting her is optional. You have this cruel idiot (from DoubleX, highlighted on The Sexist) who thought the following encounter was consensual:

A woman once took me home with her; I thought we had some real, if drunken, feelings for each other after we’d met at a party. She took a shower, joined me in her bed, things progressed the way you might think they would, and I thought we had a lovely encounter, though she seemed a little bit tense and I mentioned it to her. She responded, “well, you’d be tense too, if you’d just been RAPED!”

Wait a minute, I said, that’s not how I saw it AT ALL. We didn’t exactly discuss our intentions beforehand, but she joined me in bed, nude and apparently willing, and hadn’t offered any resistance when I made my advances. She may have whispered “no” once or twice, but didn’t make any effort to stop me or even slow me down much. Some may call it “date rape”, but I really liked her, thought we were doing fine and would have loved to have had a further relationship. That didn’t happen.

She says no, she was tense enough for him to notice, and yet it NEVER OCCURS TO HIM that he doesn't have consent. He's apparently honest about that, and still doesn't understand that he raped someone.

Then, you have this rapist (highlighted in a Sexist Beatdown):

The following has been greatly abbreviated. Here it is in full:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/08/28/sexist-beatdown-no-means-yes-not-just-for-frat-dudes-anymore/

Once the victim was on the bed, appellant began “straddling” her again while he undid the knot in her sweatpants...The victim did not physically resist in any way while on the bed because appellant was on top of her, and she “couldn’t like go anywhere.” She did not scream out at anytime because, “[i]t was like a dream was happening or some-thing.”

The defendant testified in his own behalf. He admitted that he initiate[d] the first physical contact, but added that the victim warmly responded to his advances by passionately returning his kisses. He conceded that she was continually “whispering … no’s,” but claimed that she did so while “amorously . . . passionately” moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement.

Look at all these situations where guys have persuaded themselves that they had consent. (I'm pretty sure the last one is claiming "she wanted it" intentionally, but this is the classic claim of rapists.) This is why definition IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. You might be perfectly capable of telling what is real consent, but--here's the scary part--THESE GUYS THOUGHT THEY WERE TOO.

Please show me ANY evidence that those here have said this doesn't apply to women. We have said over and over again that it DOES.

Actually, the point that has been made so far is that the lack of explicit verbal consent from a woman every single time constitutes rape and that it is impossible for men to misread women's non-verbal cues for a withdrawal of consent. No one posited that it could be rape, only that it is rape and any man failing to get non-verbal consent is a rapist. Granted, the rule does not in practice apply to women, since those pushing it framed the rule as only applying to the initiator (who is typically male) and also claimed that women are too frightened to give their consent or withdraw it.

Giving explicit verbal consent and explicit verbal withdrawal of consent is the useful suggestion that has also been offered to ensure that women's cues are not misread. The idea that every woman's lack or withdrawal of consent involves trying to get away or lying motionless is misleading. However, both suggestions have been rejected, leaving the impression that in an act involving two people only one person -- the male -- has any responsibility to inquire about consent, with male consent ironically being treated as an inherent given.

Discussions like these are enlightening if only because they demonstrate how skewed people's perspectives are. While people may dislike Rob's comments (I am one of them), his comments are no different than what the other side thinks. They are no more insulting, no more juvenile, no more deliberately dismissive. Both points of view come from an unwillingness to see the other side's perspective, and both views are dangerous, although the feminist view is more problematic not because it wholly absolves women of any responsibility, but also frames male initiated sex as inherently as potentially rape.

It is curious how personal such discussions get and how willing people are to attack others and then complain when attacks are returned. An impressively terrible message about how feminist view sex has been presented, along with a very negative view of men.

"EXACTLY, what would you say would be a reasonable amount of time to do the following:

1). Understand that the woman you are fucking is actually telling you to stop fucking.

2). Realize she is not joking, and is really being a bitch like that.

3). Withdraw your penis from her vagina, where it had just consensually been thrusting in and out of?"

Rob--the scientific answer is less than one-fifth of one second. That's all it takes you to know that she said stop and react. I'll be very generous and give you TEN TIMES more than you need, so you get almost 2 seconds. You MUST react within that time frame--"are you ok?," "do you need me to stop?" etc. are acceptable. Once that's confirmed, you have another 160 milliseconds to withdraw.

Let's note the portion in bold, shall we? YOU HAVE A LOT OF ANGER AGAINST WOMEN WHO SAY NO. This tells us a lot about why you minimize rape so much. You are such a disgusting excuse for a human being that you don't think women even SHOULD say no.

You can't even answer the extremely simple question, should a person get to decide if they want to have sex?

"And you, I do know of a few people who have been seriously abused, or grew up in abusive situations… and you know what… they STILL don’t talk about it – even if they have, once or twice, they don’t fucking trumpet it from every goddamn mountain top.

So, I believe that TRUE survivors still follow that pattern."

How convenient! You have constructed a fantasy world that prevents anyone from seeking justice.

I am continually stunned by the lengths you will go to in order to trash victims. But, on the bright side, I've learned something from it. I've learned how entrenched hatred of women can be. I've learned what lurks under the surface of someone who spits out "feminist" every time a woman asserts herself. I've learned how essential it is that we as a society educate our young people--male AND female--about consent, about their rights, and about respecting each other.

"How long does it take you to hear words, process what they mean, and act on them if someone yells “Duck!” Or what if someone asks you a question to which you know the answer…how long does it take for you to hear the words, understand their meaning, and give the reply? Certainly not 30 seconds."

According to Wikipedia, human reaction time is 140-160 milliseconds for an auditory stimulus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

So, yeah, 30 seconds is very deliberate.

"The only possible explanation I can come up with for your position is that you in fact have been guilty of the sex without consent thing that you so poetically call “rayyyyype”. Is that why you like to talk about “Traditional Rape” so much, because that is the only type of rape you are willing to admit is valid, and since you didn’t do that, then you are not a rapist? So tell us, is that it? Did you do it a couple of times when the girl was passed out or clearly not into it, but heck she didn’t fight you so that made it okay?"

I said, IF you ever act on your beliefs, THEN I will try to get you locked up. An if-then statement is 3rd grade logic. If your aunt has balls, then she's your uncle, as the saying goes.

and: "Is it because you know deep down you’re a rapist (or fantasize about being one) and if you actually asked for consent you wouldn’t get it?"

Again, these are all hypothetical statements, not accusations. You have never addressed why you have these attitudes, and we have simply said that the most logical reason for you to have these beliefs is if it benefits you.

Also, after your little porn fantasy, I asked--if you really do have women screaming that they want you, why are you so opposed to women having the right to consent to sex?

Doesn't that sound nice? Don't worry, the feminists will still be here tomorrow.

In fact, even consent can still constitute rape.

Now, Simon, Did the 30 second rapist deserve to go to jail?

And, would a 15 second rapist also deserve to go to jail?

Why do you support this nonsense, Simon?

These girls aren't going to sleep with you, nor even be seen with you. Are you that desperate for female approval that you will deny reason for even a crumb of it from anonymous females on the internet?

That is pathetic... and, really, quite ABNORMAL.

If you can’t make a judgement call on a rational course of action at any given time then well, you FAIL as a human being. -- Simon

That is a FAIL, Simon.

JohnDias argued that extensively, and it was found unnacceptable.

I know your chivalry is contradicting your sense of reason.

So, this is simple for you.

Do you think it was just for the 30 Second Rapist to go to prison?

And, should there be a difference if it took 15 seconds?

If you can't make a judgement call on a rational course of action at any given time then well, you FAIL as a human being.

You said it was so clear any NORMAL person would know.

But you are afraid to answer, and so now you are trying to call me a rapist.

Bullshit.

You have evaded EVERY question.

Why?

ANSWER THE QUESTION!

You're evasiveness is quite telling.

Unless you are defending your own actions????

There is no other logical reason.