Rape Analogy Redux: The “Stroll In The Jungle” Theory
It’s about time that this blog begin to address all the incoherent rape analogies that are floating around out there. Previously, we heard from people who believe that rape is like a natural disaster. We’ll call this the Hurricane Rape Model: “Under this model, rape is like a hurricane. Everyone agrees that hurricanes are devastating. Hurricanes cannot be prevented—they can only be predicted, planned for, and vigilantly avoided. Because no one can be blamed for causing a hurricane, the onus is on the victims to make sure they stay out of the disaster’s path.”
Today, a commenter submitted another absurd model for thinking about rape: The Stroll In the Jungle Theory. The commenter postulates that by turning up in places where women sometimes report being raped—like frat parties—women are exercising horrible judgment, much like the explorer who walks into the jungle loaded with “terrible and deadly beasts.” He writes:
Going to a rowdy frat party just might really be exercise of bad judgment. If somebody takes a stroll into the jungle with full knowledge that there are terrible and deadly beasts out there that are known for killing people, because the stroller through the jungle likes taking strolls in jungles—that just may be some pretty bad judgment. That is, unless getting eaten was the intention (I’m assuming it wasn’t). Likewise, petting a hungry bear isn’t a wise thing to do, either. Also likewise, going to a frat party knowing that there may be dangerous people present may not be the wisest of choices.
Let’s see how this analogy bears out. Hah. Get it? Bears? Anyway. Ways in which rape is not like a stroll in the jungle:
(1) Men are not like hungry bears. Unlike hungry bears, men do not have an insatiable survival instinct that forces them to rape women. The vast majority of men are not rapists. As commenter K points out: “To say a rapist is equivalent to a hungry bear is to say that they can not be held accountable for their actions,” she writes. “I’ve been drunk hundreds of times with men I knew well and men I hardly knew at all. And not one of them has ever raped me.” I have gone even deeper into the heart of darkness: I have been co-habitating with a hungry bear for some time now, and despite having hundreds of opportunities to do so, he has never raped me. Even when I’m sound asleep! Men are not like hungry bears.
(2) Getting eaten by bears is not a major social problem. Wikipedia lists 29 deaths by bear in North America over the past decade. Meanwhile, someone is sexually assaulted in the U.S. every two minutes. (A person is eaten by a bear in North America once every 181,241 minutes).
(3) Nevertheless, people take murderous bears really fucking seriously. When a person gets eaten by a bear in the wild, some people will respond by saying, “What a fucking idiot to get eaten by that bear!” But that sentiment is, at least, almost always accompanied by this one: “Holy shit! Man-eating bear on the loose!”
What is the fate of the man-eating bear? Many of the past decade’s person-eaters were either shot, killed in some other way, pepper-sprayed, lured out of the wilderness with elaborate traps, or quarantined in animal training. Sixty percent of rapes are not even reported to police, which seriously impedes the government’s ability to trap rapists. Why aren’t these women reporting their rapes? Oh, perhaps it has s0mething to do with jungle rape theorists who suggest that everyone who gets raped is a big ‘ol dumbass.
(4) There is not much societal benefit to reducing the number of jungle deaths. How much effort ought society devote to reducing the danger of jungle-strolling, and how much effort ought it expend to address the problem of rape? In order to answer this question, we’ll have to examine the societal benefits to people taking walks in the jungle, and to women being in situations where rape is possible.
There is no societal benefit to people walking in the jungle, a fact which the U.S. government recognizes by not encouraging its citizens to walk in the jungle. If you like to walk in the jungle, whatever—that’s your thing.
What does the government encourage women to do? The government does encourage women to get married, even though marriage is dangerous—raping your spouse was relatively recently outlawed across the U.S. The government does encourage women to contribute in their communities, even though being acquainted with other people is dangerous—73 percent of rape victims know their attackers. The government does encourage women to attend college, even though attending school-sponsored functions (like frat parties) is dangerous—sometimes, women are raped there.
Since over half of our society is female, it makes sense that society would work to allow women to lead full lives. That means leaving the home, working, attending parties, getting an education, having relationships with women and men, and generally doing what humans do—without the constant fear of being raped. In order to (a) allow women to live their lives, and (b) prevent them from being raped, the only thing left to do is (c) not allow people to rape. That’s it.
(5) Women can’t escape the jungle. Women aren’t raped because they attend frat parties, or get drunk, or walk alone at night—they’re raped because they’re women. One in six women will be raped sexually assaulted in their lifetimes, compared to one in 33 men. Are women far more likely than men to attend frat parties? No, “frat parties” don’t rape people. Rapists do. It’s easy to look at every rape victim and say, “that girl shouldn’t have put herself in that situation.” It’s so, so lazy to say that. It’s much harder to put the time and energy and work and funding into actually eliminating rape. But you know what? It’s not difficult at all to admit that that’s what needs to happen.
Photo via allspice1, Creative Commons Attribution License 2.0
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3:32 pm
Ye gads Amanda, you eviscerated the man’s argument so elegantly. I would add that if it is incumbent upon women to avoid all situations where they might be raped (insert ESP chip), and men are responsible for most rapes (Fortney, et al, http://www.sexual-offender-treatment.org/55.html), then women should avoid all situations where they might encounter men including romantic and consensual sexual relationships. Therefore we should all be agoraphobic lesbians. No offense intended to my lesbian sisters and to those who suffer from agoraphobia. See how we come to ineffective conclusions when we build upon faulty assumptions?
3:34 pm
Thank you.
3:37 pm
I don’t know why that link no longer works. If you Google “Myths and Facts about Sexual Offenders: Implications for Treatment and Public Policy” you should come to an article by Timothy Fortney, et al published in Sexual Offender Treatment, Volume 2 (2007), Issue 1
4:36 pm
Thanks again, Amanda, not only for speaking truth to power, but for highlighting how absurd these myths and analogies are, and making me laugh through my jeers. In Egypt there are billboards that read “Women are like candy” and just too tempting if seen out and about unwrapped, in Israel some public buses now require women to sit in the back… because they’re presence up front is too tempting to men. Women in India do not enjoy solo moments in public space. Measures that restrict women don’t seem to curb these wild, voracious candy-eating-bear-like men, so uh, maybe we should stop acting like men are out of control animals and take them to task as human beings who need to exercise self-control or be punished. That simple.
4:39 pm
Your claim that “1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetimes” is not accurate. According to a 2000 report by the National Institute of Justice entitled, “Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey:
They’re spreading the definition of rape (actual rapes plus “attempts”) pretty thin in that report. When reporting the number of pregnancies in the U.S., should we include in that number the number of sex acts between men and women?
5:31 pm
@John Dias: The difference might be that the experience is less traumatic for the women. (That shouldn’t mean that the experience of an attempted rape can’t be deeply traumatic.)
Nevertheless: We have a misogynistic, hateful arsehole that wanted to rape a woman. Doesn’t change the number there.
(And I’m not going to touch the pregnancy-analogy that is just too stupid for words.)
6:00 pm
Dorothy wrote:
No, we have a misandric, hateful commenter named Dorothy who fails to recognize that a non-rapist could have been counted as a rapist (for the purposes of the aforementioned study) simply by coming on strong and then backing off rather than using force. The “1-in-4″ statistic (often quoted on many university campuses at “Take Back the Night” rallies) is based on the feminist-inspired “expanded definition” of rape, and that statistic is derived from feminist researcher Mary Koss. The respondents to one of Koss’ studies answered various survey questions about their experiences, not just whether they had been raped. Men who came on strong and then backed off when the women resisted were deemed as attempted rapists in the study, even though 3/4 of the study’s designated “victims” specifically indicated in their responses that they did NOT consider the attempt at sex to be rape, nor an attempt at rape.
In other words, what is “too stupid for words” is the feminist inclination to categorize as much non-rape activity as possible, as rape, in order to inflate the statistics.
6:13 pm
John, we (by “we,” I mean feminists) are familiar with the study. By what you’ve said, however, it doesn’t seem like you’re too familiar with it. Where’d you get your information? ‘Cause it sure wasn’t from reading what Koss actually wrote…
6:17 pm
Ok, that was mean. But seriously…there is a difference between someone coming on strong, but then backing off when they realize the other person isn’t into it and attempted rape. There’s a big, big difference. Please don’t underestimate the intelligence of women with the assumption that we can’t tell the difference.
And none of that changes the fact that some of the stuff you said about the Koss study just simply isn’t true.
6:18 pm
@John Dias – As someone who has organized two TBTN rallies, I feel confident enough to say that the “1-in-4″ statistic generally refers to the likelihood that a woman will experience domestic violence in her lifetime, not rape. TBTN is, after all, a march to end all forms of sexual violence – not just rape.
Furthermore, I feel like you think calling someone a “feminist” researcher invalidates their findings and arguments. This seems like a silly tactic to use on a feminist blog. The thing is, it isn’t actually up to you to decide what an “attempted” rape feels or looks like. MANY women have experienced attempted rape and, because of the influence of pricks like you, come to the conclusion that it probably wasn’t “real” rape. Who, after all, wants their painful experience to be completely delegitimized? It feels a little like you’re saying that a male rapist must ejaculate or “finish” in some universally-accepted way for a rape to be considered rape. And that is one of the most cruel things I have ever heard.
6:21 pm
This post is awesome.
6:31 pm
@John Dias: Attempted rape is still criminal sexual assault, and I would argue that, since the victimization comes regardless of “success”, it still counts.
After all, attempted murder is still a crime as well, no?
6:36 pm
Clumsy, inapt analogy. I don’t feel sorry for people who get drunk & crash their cars. I don’t feel sorry for women who go to frat parties & get assaulted.
Your citation to the %age women in general being raped is off point. So is a citation of the %age of drivers who get killed while sober.
The specific point is that when someone undertakes an unwise venture & disaster strikes, no one should have sympathy for that person. Do you have sympathy for drunks who kill themselves driving? I don’t.
Drunk driving has been outlawed & is policed strictly. Similarly, frat houses should be banned, & the police should carefully scrutinize college student residences to make sure no underground frat house is being run.
Ms. Hess, you may be a neophyte, confused woman trying to write about issues you have little knowledge about, but please never become a lawyer. Your analyses are so poorly reasoned & your logic so faulty that you would never win a case.
You never took logic in college, huh. Big mistake, but there’s still time to learn. Good luck.
6:45 pm
Wooooooooow.
6:46 pm
I paid for access to read a copy of the study from a scholarly journal. I have read the whole thing through, and have a PDF copy of it.
As far as defining rape “not being up to me,” I think you’re projecting. The Koss study defined rape victimization despite the word of the purported victims that their experiences were NOT rape. If it’s not up to the supposed “victims” to decide what is rape, then what you’re really saying is that it’s up to feminists.
6:53 pm
Left out one part of my analogy – the rapist is a drunk driver headed the other way, smoking crack & texting. So, you might have made it home OK driving drunk, but when you encounter the wrong person, it’s a two-persons-driving-drunk crash.
6:53 pm
For that matter, the government report cited above (the one that claims 1-in-6) claims that more than half of the victims in the 1-in-6 claim were minors. Of this portion of the sample, the study makes no distinction between statutory rape, forcible rape, and attempted statutory rape, assuming that all sex acts or attempted acts are rape since no child can legally consent.
More inflation of the numbers.
7:11 pm
Thanks for the correction, John. The correct statistic is that one-in-six women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. I’ve corrected the post.
7:18 pm
Katie wrote (#10):
You “feel confident” of the meaning of the 1-in-4 statistic? You are either unaware of the source of the statistic trumpeted in you own event, or you are misrepresenting the numbers on domestic violence victims.
In 2007, researchers at the Centers for Disease Control published a paper in the American Journal of Public Health (entitled “Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence“) which analyzed the responses of 11,370 18-28 year-olds as part of the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health.
The findings of the study indicated that half of all domestic violence is bi-directional, and the other half battering (unidirectional). Of the battering victims, more than 70% were men who were beaten by female perpetrators, but never fought back.
Of the half where there was bi-directional violence, the women attacked the men more frequently.
Did your “Take Back the Night” rallies recognize the reality that women are getting away with abusing men, under the pretense that they are harmless on one extreme or “victims fighting back” on the other?
8:10 pm
Amanda Hess wrote (#18):
So you’ve switched out the term “rape” and substituted it with “sexual assault” as a form of correction. But you still linked to an organization which derives the “1-in-6″ figure from a government study, and I’ve quoted the 2000 version of that study. The government study uses the word “rape,” and yet you’ve seen fit to correct it.
Better to issue a correction that concedes that the 1-in-6 claim (whether for victims of rape or sexual assault) is itself total bunk.
9:03 pm
Nickh said: “Attempted rape is still criminal sexual assault, and I would argue that, since the victimization comes regardless of “success”, it still counts.
After all, attempted murder is still a crime as well, no?”
I would say that trying to falsely inflate sexual assault (ie, innapropriately touching a breast or buttocks) into a definition of Traditional Rape, and then getting taxpayers into a frenzy over Falsified Rape Statistics in order to get more government funding is also a crime… and serious one. It is commonly called Fraud.
Btw, violence is a crime, but we wouldn’t try to confuse punching someone in the face with a Capital Crime like murder, would we?
11:47 pm
Ok…if the 1 in 6 are just getting fondled I must be on the wrong planet because the statistics for that would be 99.99% of women.
12:25 am
Most importantly, bears don’t even really live in the jungle. The only that does are sun bears, and they’re quite small and inoffensive. What a doofus.
12:26 am
Excuse me, I left out “species.” Now I look like a doofus. Arg.
12:42 am
Well, Justine,
Do you think it matters if it is 1 in 6, or 1 in 20, or 1 in 100? I mean, it doesn’t really matter to you, or does it?
Btw. When I was in highschool, we had a girl who thought it was funny to knee boys in the balls for no reason. Was that sexual assault? She never got in trouble, and some female teachers even smirked. But my best friend got suspended for two weeks for “sexual assault” because he snapped a girl’s bra who was sitting in front of him. GOSH! I hope she got counselling!
I’ve also had my ass and my crotch grabbed by many women over the years… and from several it was certainly not invited, nor appreciated. Obviously then, these women were on par with Traditional Rapists.
I’ve also been with two women who I’ve said “no” to, and who didn’t take that for a real answer… several times in a row, until I had to forcefully remove them from me. Btw… they also had Roman Hands and Russian Fingers. They also got extremely angry and insulting afterwards. I suppose they were rapists and ought to spend two decades in prison. After all, isn’t that the equivalent of Traditional Rape? It seems you would like it to be so in your world of Androgyny.
You do believe in Equality, don’t you?
1:14 am
After all, if Traditional Rape no longer means subduing a woman by force – ie. by explicit threat of violence, or violence itself, but merely attempting to be the sexual aggressor, as in, grabbing a boob or a crotch… then how come more women are not in jail for the crime of Traditional Rape? And rotting their sorry arses off for a few decades? That’s what rapists deserve, right?
And what about the crime of fraud?
If people who are employed by the Rape Industry lie about the numbers, and then run to the government with their hands out for taxpayer dollars so that they may feather their own nests… well, how are they any different than Bernie Madoff or Ken Lay? And why aren’t they getting jailed for 99 years for their white collar crimes, because this is exactly what it is.
Even here, on this site, we have evidence of falsified information, and the perp is resistant to recant her false info, but merely attempted to further falsify the info to cover her own tracks, rather than outright state it was false info she was spreading, and therefore, her article itself is seriously in question.
Traditional Rape is a bad thing… but, the core principle of justice is that it is better to let a guilty man go free than to imprison an innocent man…(and yes, even a guilty woman!) something that the authoress of this article, and the subsequent commenters don’t seem to care much about.
You are Statistical Rapists. Justice Rapists. Whatever you want to call it. You certainly don’t care about women who have been Traditionally Raped if you dare to insult them by including an innappropriate fondling of their breasts as the same relevance of a strange man pulling a woman behind a dumpster and penetrating her with the threat of a knife to her throat.
Shame on you.
By the way, I bet you snigger at men getting Prison Raped (a real forced rape, including violence) while in prison for all sorts of lesser and non-violent crimes. None of which certainly should involve the added punishment of a Capital Crime being committed against them, namely, Traditional Rape.
I would challenge this authoress to provide some statistics of how many of the rapes she quotes are Traditional Rapes, and how many are of the other convoluted definitions.
Just wondering… you know… if it has ever been tracked. It must have been… somewhere… with all those billions being directed to the Rape Industry.
2:15 am
John, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming your research was shallow/incomplete. But now…you’ve actually read the study, and you think some of the behaviors described on the survey don’t qualify as rape? It seems your problem is much much deeper than insufficient research.
2:27 am
Melissa, the issue is that the women involved didn’t consider them rape! Get it? Never mind what I think… If 73 percent of the study’s “designated victims” did not consider a particular action to be rape, then who are you to suggest otherwise?
It is quite clear that YOU have the problem. You just can’t let go of the notion that some research inflates rape figures by disempowering women of the right to describe their own experiences in their own terms. What’s wrong with you???
2:48 am
Melissa, I want you to read the study for yourself so that you can see the data.
Specifically:
* See Table 2 (page 12), at the very bottom, where it says “Label for the experience.” The Chi-squared percentage value of women who called their experience “rape” is indicated as 26.34. That means that 73.66% of respondents did not consider themselves to have been raped.
* See page 13, under the italicized paragraph heading “Impact.” It says that women were more likely to consider it rape when the experience involved a stranger, and less likely to think of an acquaintance as a rapist.
Again, I think that you ought to cut out the ideology and let the women involved described their experiences for themselves. I think that you reflect a disquieting tendency in ideological feminism to infantilize women, to imply that they are so oppressed and victimized that they can’t even evaluate the degree of their supposed oppression.
3:39 am
“I would say that trying to falsely inflate sexual assault (ie, innapropriately touching a breast or buttocks) into a definition of Traditional Rape [...]”
^^
Sorry.
But when we count groping in, I’d say the number is not 1 out of 6. More like 100 out of 100. (Okay, there may be some sheltered individuals. 95 – 100.)
@John who stretches the “women involved didn’t consider them rapes”-point: Yeah. They didn’t think it was rape because men like you constantly told them that it wasn’t rape.
(And that attempted rape didn’t count, of course, because nothing happened, so how dare you even think of reporting?)
And others said they were just strolling into a jungle, you know, so it’s totally their fault.
And just for the record: What do you think about things like attempted murder? Should you punish a person for that or just … you know, obviously they *backed off*, because there’s no other reason an attempted “something” couldn’t have succeeded (and nevermind the fact that the victim might not be as weak as supposed or someone else coming to help).
4:53 am
Dorothy wrote:
They didn’t think it was rape because it wasn’t rape. Again with the infantilizing women; you apparently think that women are incapable of having their own opinions or perceptions because they don’t get validated by men, or because men have opinions of their own. Are you so completely dependent upon men that you simply can’t form your own coherent thoughts?
I’m going to constantly tell you to change your opinion. I’ll expect a full philosophical conversion by the morning. Thank you for your time.
7:29 am
“I’m going to constantly tell you to change your opinion. I’ll expect a full philosophical conversion by the morning. Thank you for your time.”
That would work if the problem were just you, in the singular, telling women they weren’t getting raped.
It’s not.
I think the Amy Dickinson issue a month or so ago really highlights the guilt-response quotient of girls and women reacting to their rape.
And then it isn’t one lone persona on the internet, who may or may not be connected to one person elsewhere in the Real World that makes the difference. It is the popular conception that you “have to” (or should) fight back, that if you don’t look like a rape victim, then maybe you just had sex you didn’t consent to. It is the Whoopi Goldberg’s difference between rape-rape, and just rape.
It is the friends who say things like, “I don’t think of that as _____”, whether it be sexual assault or rape. It is things like this jungle analogy, it is things like writing in to an advice columnist and having her tell you right off the bat that you are a victim of your own poor judgement. It is a culture that looks at you like you’re now somehow dirtied, or a lying liar who lies.
And all that culminates in women perhaps not being able to label what happened to them as rape.
Are there problems with the study you cite? Yes. Its results have not been duplicated. Is there a real problem with rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault in this country and elsewhere, regardless? Yes.
Is there a problem when someone says that accounts of attempted rape are “men who come on strong and then back off”, as if a woman can’t tell the difference? Yes! Are the two connected? Possibly!
8:06 am
Justine, The RAINN statistic I quoted includes only rapes and attempted rapes. If the statistic for “sexual assault” included other forms of sexual abuse, like groping, it would be much higher. However, from my experience, groping incidents are highly unreported, so who knows what the numbers would reflect. If anyone knows of any studies about the prevalence of “sexual contact” crimes (non-penetrative sexual abuse) in the U.S., I’d love to take a look at them.
8:06 am
For rape cases as a whole, the best analogy is murder. You meet the wrong person & he kills/rapes you.
My correspondents point out that Ms. Hess totally re-wrote the jungle analogy writer’s post in order to try, feebly, to advance her agenda, so it’s pointless to discuss the issues here, but as I wrote previously, the drunk driving analogy applies only to women who go to frat houses – both behaviors are stupid & dangerous, & it’s only a matter of time before your stupidity bites you on the ass.
8:31 am
Everything what petpluto says.
I just want to add another little thing:
Some men think that the woman who doesn’t call her experience rape is totally happy until some feminists come along who tell her she has been raped.
I think that the woman who doesn’t call her experience rape is troubled by her past, is upset, doesn’t have a healthy sex life, maybe even doesn’t trust men anymore. And she can’t figure out why. She doesn’t dare to put the name “rape” to it and doesn’t even think she’s allowed to feel upset.
10:20 am
If women do not possess the intelligence or social awareness to discern whether their experiences are Traditional Rape, or even one of the Lesser Rapes, it ought to make one wonder whether it’s wise to allow them out of the house at all unless accompanied by a proper chaperone, who can make these important distinctions for them.
10:44 am
@ Ms. Petpluto,
It is not “friends” and so on who don’t view what happens to a woman to be rape. It is Feminists who view ANYTHING that happens to a woman to be Rape.
—
“Is there a problem when someone says that accounts of attempted rape are “men who come on strong and then back off”, as if a woman can’t tell the difference? Yes! Are the two connected? Possibly!” — Petpluto
—
“And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference.” — Susan Griffin “Rape: The All-American Crime”
“Men’s sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can ‘reach WITHIN women to f***/construct us from the inside out.’ Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women’s own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, ‘even if she does not feel forced.’ — Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)
“Compare victims’ reports of rape with women’s reports of sex. They look a lot alike….[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it.” — Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, “Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation,” Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.
“All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.” — Catharine MacKinnon
“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.” — Catharine MacKinnon
“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” — Robin Morgan
10:49 am
“Lesser Rapes?” Are you kidding me? There is no such thing as “lesser rape.” Yes, some people are a lot more affected by being raped than others. This, however, has nothing to do with what “type” of rape it was. You assume that stranger rape is automatically more traumatic than acquaintance rape? That’s so terribly untrue. For some people, it would be. But for other people, it’s a great deal more damaging to be betrayed in that way by someone you trusted–whether it’s a family member, a friend, a husband, whatever. The term “lesser rape” makes me sick.
John, yes of course I know that a lot of the women in the study (and a lot of women in the world) don’t necessarily call their experiences rape, even if they were. This is not me underestimating women or taking away their ability to define their own experiences–indeed, for a lot of people, not using the word “rape” can be a coping skill. Sometimes the thought of having been raped is simply too horrible to deal with, and some recovery (this period can take days, months, years, or forever) is necessary before a person can even handle using that word. The fact is, there are a lot of people (really, A LOT of people) who take many years to actually be able to use the “R” word to describe their experiences, even when it is the only valid and accurate descriptor.
For example, I know a man who was raped by a woman. He was extremely drunk and only half conscious, and she had sex with him anyway. Having sex with someone who isn’t fully conscious is rape, full stop. There can be no arguing that point. However, when he told me about it, his exact words, after describing the incident were “I don’t know if it was rape, but…yeah.” To any outside observer…of course it’s rape. But you can’t begin to understand the emotions that go into defining an experience as such.
As for me, during my rape I certainly knew what it was. I was in shock…all I could think was that I couldn’t believe that this person who I’d trusted was raping me. By later that night, I’d convinced myself not to say anything, for fear of making him mad. By the next day, I’d convinced myself it wasn’t THAT big of a deal…(after all, it’s not like he was a stranger jumping out of the bushes with a knife, he was someone whose apartment I’d entered on my own free will.) By a week later, I’d convinced myself it wasn’t rape. And by a week after that, I’d blocked out the memory that I had ever considered it rape. It wasn’t until over a year later that it all came rushing back one day. I think I subconsciously knew when I was ready to handle the events of that day in full force. But I was a rape victim for a year and a half without calling myself one.
Those are just two stories. There are millions. There are millions of situations, and millions of reasons why a rape victim might not use that word. That doesn’t, however, change the reality of what happened.
10:52 am
It’s not at all a question of “intelligence” or “social awareness”–it’s a question of how terms have been defined or used in their environment, which may NOT be the correct definition…most people on the street don’t know the correct definition of depression, OCD, first amendment rights, conflict of interest, or the symptoms of a stroke. This doesn’t mean that they are inherently stupid, it just means that their sources of education or information are not accurate with respect to how they use these terms, and it’s just the same with rape–Rob, John Dias, numerous advice columnists, and many others routinely give people totally inaccurate information with regard to rape.
11:11 am
If it’s not such a traumatic experience that you would be affected by it, nor that other (more reasonable, less politically polarized) women would even CALL it “rape,” then why in those particular situations is it as serious to lump in the experience with that of women who were violently beaten and forcibly raped?
It seems to me that it’s reasonable to conclude that forcible rape — which leaves lifelong scars (and for some, causes life-threatening injuries) — has nothing in common with the Melissa experience. Call it “gray rape” or whatever you like, but you’re conflating a rather iffy experience with the real thing.
The most disturbing thing about your “all sex is rape” mentality is that you’re diluting the pain and trauma of genuine rape victims by throwing in experiences that are nowhere near as menacing, all to score political points and portray heterosexual sex as just a great continuum of male-imposed manipulation that culminates in rape. It’s the most ideologically polarized political dogma that can be expressed about female sexuality. You might as well call for all women to become lesbians; of course, that wouldn’t fly (straight women are too wrapped up in their own “confused oppression” about just how raped they really are, for that to ever work!).
11:13 am
The latter statistic is misleading. According to several credible studies 1 in 6 males will be sexually assaulted before the age of 16. This suggests a much higher overall rate of sexual violence against all males than 1 in 33. The study that reached the latter result largely excluded women as potential rapists, which likely severely skewed the results given that male victims of child sexual abuse report nearly 40% of their abusers are female. Again, that suggests a much higher overall rate of sexual violence against all males than 1 in 33. While I understand the feminist need to paint sexual violence as only male-on-female, it would still be best to present an accurate representation of the rate of sexual violence against males rather than framing male victimization as negligible and irrelevant.
Succinctly put, it is not necessary to downplay sexual violence against males in order to discussion sexual violence against females.
11:14 am
Melissa, are you claiming that if a 15yr old girl has sex with a 20yr old boy who she lusts after herself, that she has been traumitized to the same extent as a woman being dragged behind a dumpster and forcibly penetrated through real violence, or the threat of violence and/or possible loss of life?
I can certainly see the difference, and no, I do not condone the Lesser Rape known as Statuatory Rape… but let’s call it Sex with a Minor then, because even though it is obviously wrong, in no way is it in the same category as Traditional Rape.
Btw, as per the feminist quotes I have provided above, if you are a sexually active woman, YOU are a victim of rape. Betcha didn’t know that, eh?
What kind of rape, I cannot discern, but it certainly is not Traditional Rape. You wouldn’t have to think about it all if you had been a victim of Traditional Rape.
11:34 am
Sexual violence does not necessarily work in black and white terms. A person (female or male) can experience what qualifies legally as rape and yet attempt to write it off. The person could go for years thinking nothing of it, believing that the act had no real impact. However, if one were to look at that person’s life, one would likely find a host of failed relationships, difficulty with trusting people, various social interaction issues, drug abuse, sex addiction, co-dependency, etc. A person does not have to call the act “rape” in order for the act to have an impact. A person does not even have to acknowledge the act had an impact for it to actually harm the person’s life.
The problem you are having parsing how sexual violence works is the same most victims (female or male) have. Our society has framed sexual violence as a forced, physically brutalizing act. So it should come as no surprise that when there is not much force involved, no bruises, no punches, no growling, drooling men in ski-masks that victims do not think what occurred was rape (and with male victims, also not being female, not being an inmate in prison or being assaulted by a woman).
While I agree that the feminist framework about this issue is grossly overboard and misleading, the underlying point that all sexual violence is not “boogeyman rape” is valid. Most sexual violence occurs at the hands of a person the victim knows, it may not include brutal physical force and the aftermath may not leave the victim with a clear-cut understanding of whether what happened was rape.
I do not think we need new terminology, only a better understanding of the different types of sexual violence and the different ways sexual violence impacts people. Our criteria for what counts as rape should not be a rape victim covered in bruises and blood to running down the street screaming “Rape! Rape!”
11:49 am
Toysoldier,
Sure, and we should not need to count dead bodies to discern the murder rate as well.
These things certainly DO need to be better defined.
Take the Statuatory Rape example.
Many girls are today losing their virginity at the age of around 14, last I heard.
Now, if a 14 year old girl loses her virginity by accepting a 15 year old boy’s penis into an organ which is designed to accept a penis, and this is not considered to be a life altering traumatic experience… well, then certainly the physical act of accepting a penis that is a mere few years older cannot be truthfully considered much more traumatic – from a physical perspective – if the girl desired penetration from the male.
In other words, if the act of accepting a 15 year old’s penetration is not considered traumatic, or rape, then exactly what is it that physically makes a 20 year old’s penis somehow so traumatic to be equated with the Traditional Rape definition?
One can argue about the older person taking advantage of a minor, certainly, but explain to me how the actual physical act of this is considered normal in one circumstance, while a life altering traumatic experience in the other?
Should not a 14 year old girl wilfully losing her virginity to a 15 year old boy also be as similarly traumatized by the actual physical act of intercourse with a boy only a few years older? What is it that makes one “rape” and the other not?
12:06 pm
John, I told you nothing about my experience except that I entered the person’s apartment of my own free will. Other than that, you don’t know ANYTHING about it. I don’t know why you made the assumption that the rape was not forcible, or that there was not violence, or that I didn’t end up bloodied or bruised. What is wrong with you?
And I never once said all sex is rape. Never said anything close to it. All I said is that all sex WITHOUT CONSENT is rape. And that isn’t at all polarizing, or even debatable. That’s just fact.
12:09 pm
Rob–I see you’re being deliberately obtuse about a power differential that exists between people who are older, more knowledgeable, and more powerful (socially or physically) that makes real consent impossible.
And, of course, sex is only a physical act and has no social or psychological implications because women or humans in general are just machines with no contextual framework, sense of self, or investment in interpersonal relationships.
Clearly, any act of sex is only physical and can be completely defined entirely by the duration, angles, and psi of the thrusts used, and the relationship of the people involved and the emotional implications of the act couldn’t possibly play into it.
Your whole argument is so ridiculously lame that its insulting not just to women but to all human beings.
12:12 pm
Rob, you said: “Btw, as per the feminist quotes I have provided above, if you are a sexually active woman, YOU are a victim of rape. Betcha didn’t know that, eh?”
Quit believing the propaganda. Dworkin never said or wrote that all heterosexual sex is rape. Get your facts straight before you get all smug.
“One can argue about the older person taking advantage of a minor, certainly, but explain to me how the actual physical act of this is considered normal in one circumstance, while a life altering traumatic experience in the other?”
The answer is in the question. You mentioned an “older person taking advantage of a minor.” Which means that you acknowledge that that happens. You can’t just say “a 20-year-old” and “a 15-year-old” as if that tells the whole story EITHER way. Could a 15-year-old give genuine, non-coerced consent to a 20-year-old? Sure. But are all sexual experiences with that large of an age gap that way? Certainly not.
12:20 pm
LeftSidePositive,
It is not being deliberately obtuse.
If I wanted to be deliberately obtuse I would have thrown in that girls maturate at a much faster rate than boys, something which never fails to be pointed out in a host of other situations.
A 14yr old girl is more mature than a 15yr old boy – by a long shot, and therefore the power differential is in her favour.
In fact, since girls reach their adult mental maturity at around the age of 18, while males do not fully catch up to them until approximately the age of 28, a purposefully obtuse person could argue the 14yr girl is closer in maturity to a 20yr old male than the 15yr old boy is to the 20yr old male.
The power differential is in the female’s favour between a 14yr old girl and a 15yr old boy. In fact, a 14yr old girl might be close enough in maturity to a boy 5 years older than that of the boy 1 year old. Said maturity differential might not be much different than a 30yr old man compared to a 28yr old woman.
You can argue to me that teenagers ought not to be having sex, fine, but it is purposefully obtuse to claim that the exact same physical act is considered “normal” in one circumstance, while a life altering traumatic experience – equated with a Capital Crime – in the other circumstance.
12:26 pm
“Dworkin never said or wrote that all heterosexual sex is rape. Get your facts straight before you get all smug.” — Melissa
Perhaps you should read those quotes closer. I never quoted the Great Walrus even once.
But, I can, if you would like:
“Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership.” — Andrea Dworkin
“Marriage . . . is a legal license to rape.” — Andrea Dworkin, Letters From a War Zone, (Dutton Publishing, 1989)
“The hurting of women is . . . basic to the sexual pleasure of men.” — Andrea Dworkin, From The New York Times, Larry Elder, Smiting Moses, FrontPageMag.com July 10, 1998
“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” — Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, (Dutton Publishing, 1989)
“Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership.” — Andrea Dworkin, Letters From a War Zone, (Dutton Publishing, 1989)
“Rape, then, is the logical consequence of a system of definitions of what is normative. Rape is no excess, no aberration, no accident, no mistake–it embodies sexuality as the culture defines it.” — Andrea Dworkin, Our Blood: Prophecies and Discourses on Sexual Politics – The Rape Atrocity and the Boy Next Door, (Harper & Row, 1976)
“…the prisons for women are our homes. We live under martial law. We live in places in which a rape culture exists. That is a women’s home, where she lives. Men have to be sent to prison, to live in a culture that is as rapist as the normal home in North America. We live under what amounts to a military curfew. Enforced by rapists. And we say usually that we’re free citizens in a free society. We lie. We lie, we lie everyday about it… We live in a police state where every man is deputized. . . . In the United States, violence against women is a major pastime. It is a sport. It is an amusement. It is a mainstream cultural entertainment. And it is real. It is pervasive. It is epidemic. It saturates the society. It’s very hard to make anyone notice it, because there is so much of it.” — Andrea Dworkin, Terror, Torture and Resistance, Keynote Speech at the Canadian Mental Health Association’s “Women in a Violent Society,” Banff, Albert, May 9, 1991, (First published in Canadian Studies/Les Cahiers de la Femme, Vol. 12, No.1, Fall 1991)
“Rape is the primary heterosexual model for sexual relating. Rape is the primary emblem of romantic love. Rape is the means by which a woman is initiated into her womanhood as it is defined by men.” — Andrea Dworkin, Letters From a War Zone, (Dutton Publishing, 1989)
“To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is.” — Andrea Dworkin
12:31 pm
Ok. Um…which part of any of those quotes says what you claimed earlier–that any sexually active woman is a rape victim? Oh yeah, they don’t.
12:34 pm
Can we agree that sexual violence against PEOPLE is wrong? Amanada Hess isn’t trying to hate on men…she is pointing out failed logic when it comes to rape that we are all guilty of, regardless of gender. If a man reports a rape the justice system would most likely not take it seriously. Our sex-ed teacher stressed the importance of protecting yourself by relaying a story of a young man who was raped by another man because he thought he was safe being male.
There are people who apparently understand that having sex with someone who is clearly not interested is wrong, and there are people who don’t seem to get it at all but don’t seem to think that going through with it anyway is rape.
Women who wish to take back the night, simply don’t wish to be in fear every time they go somewhere at night. Men can take back the night too, but they don’t feel nearly as unsafe as women do, being smaller in general.
I know arguing with people with such strong politics is futile because I’ve not once had someone go “Oh yeah, I completely see your point there” That being said I agree on certain points with every who has commented. Especially LeftSidePositive, that was a really good point about definitions.
But John…who here is under the impression that all sex is rape? No one in their right mind actually thinks that. I don’t go up to black people and say racism doesn’t exist, quoting the most extreme black panthers as proof that they are ridiculous and should really ease up on their cause. You’re not giving women very much credit when you say they are confused about their oppression. I’m not confused at all, I go about my day just like you do. I don’t falsely accuse people of rape. I make choices based on my individual feelings towards them…things such as choosing to one day get married and have children. I wear makeup and dresses sometimes because I like to. The majority of my choices are not forced on me, I am quite happy to be able to make my own decisions. I believe in equality for everyone, and preventative measures to prevent human rights atrocities.
I also really like your blog Amanada.
12:48 pm
Sorry about the typos, especially on Amanda, I promise I’m educated. I’m also not trying to put anyone down or win some type of arguement, I don’t know any of you personally and therefore I can’t fully understand your politics, so I’m not even going to try. I promise you’d like me in real life though.
12:52 pm
Rob–please argue the matter at hand. We are talking about people victimizing each other and, in particular, men forcing themselves on women WITHOUT CONSENT. These extraneous quotes are either taken ridiculously out of context (I’m not familiar with the authors so I can’t speak to that) or are totally irrelevant to how the people on this blog are discussing sexual violence (they seem to be talking a lot more about cultural constructs and anthropology than the differences of consensual sex acts versus nonconsensual ones). All we are saying is that women shouldn’t be afraid to participate fully in social activities and the world at large, without fear of sexual violence (no one should, in fact!). We are saying that all people must respect any adult’s right to give or withhold consent.
12:53 pm
Melissa,
Reading comprehension much?
“Men’s sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can ‘reach WITHIN women to f***/construct us from the inside out.’ Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women’s own. A WOMAN WHO HAS SEX WITH A MAN, THEREFORE, DOES SO AGAINST HER WILL, ‘EVEN IF SHE DOES NOT FEEL FORCED’” — Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)
“ALL SEX, EVEN CONSENSUAL SEX BETWEEN A MARRIED COUPLE, IS AN ACT OF VIOLENCE PERPETRATED AGAINST A WOMAN” — Catharine MacKinnon
“I CLAIM THAT RAPE EXISTS ANY TIME SEXUAL INTERCOURSE OCCURS WHEN IT HAS NOT BEEN INITIATED BY THE WOMAN, OUT OF HER OWN GENUINE AFFECTION AND DESIRE.” — Robin Morgan
12:55 pm
Rob–no one here is saying that, AT ALL. You are putting words in our mouths. Talk to US, don’t misrepresent us.
12:57 pm
Melissa, if you experienced forcible rape, then I sympathize, but in that case your experience only reinforced what I’ve been saying. Forcible rape victims are being undermined by the capricious use of the word “rape,” and in my view it is this politicized, dogmatic overuse of the word which causes the environment of shame that prevents genuine rape victims from coming forward.
Back to the flawed Koss study. If these women (not victims, by their own estimation) were so traumatized, then why does the Koss study also indicate that 42 percent had sex again with the man who had supposedly raped them?
And by the way, “LeftSidePositive,” I am not the only person who has criticized the scientific validity of the 1988 Koss study. Published academic scholars have done so, such as Dr. Neil Gilbert of the University of California at Berkeley (1993: “Examining the facts: Advocacy research overstates the incidence of date and acquaintance rape” published in R.J. Gelles and D.R. Loseke’s journal Current controversies on family violence, pp. 120-132). It’s not unheard of for the Koss study to come under such scrutiny for the license it took in overbroadly defining rape victims.
12:57 pm
“Rob–please argue the matter at hand. We are talking about people victimizing each other and, in particular, men forcing themselves on women WITHOUT CONSENT.” — LeftSidePositive
No, we are talking about Rape, and its watered down definitions which elevate all sorts of lesser crimes into a Capital Crime.
Sexual assault does not equate Rape, and certainly not Traditional Rape.
1:05 pm
John & Rob: the ONLY matter that defines rape is CONSENT. Not force. Not past or future intercourse. Not what other writers may or may not be saying. Not what someone was wearing or which club they went to. Did the woman (or man) give consent to the person with whom they had intercourse? If not, then it’s rape. End of story.
John, as to why women may have had sex with these men later, there are all sorts of reasons–feeling worthless, social pressure, denial, trying to convince oneself that it’s “ok,” a history of past abuse and lack of a model for healthy relationships. None of these in any way mitigate the fact that if a person has sex where coercion is present or implied, or does not consent, then the act is RAPE.
1:12 pm
Rob–as to your crackpot theories on age:
“Girls mature faster than boys” is a ridiculous gender stereotype that has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on legal consent. The fact that one gender may be socially less inclined to make fart jokes at a given age has nothing to do with whether they have the autonomy to stand up to people who are older, more powerful, more knowledgeable, and are in a position to socially or physically coerce someone into having sex.
Furthermore, you have failed miserably to address the main point that “the physical sex act” does not IN ANY WAY define rape. The only thing that does is CONSENT. Standard missionary position with kissing and massaging is rape if one party did not consent to it. Whipping, rough penetration, biting, spanking can all be perfectly acceptable if both parties enjoy the behavior, have clear boundaries, and consent to the activity.
1:17 pm
LeftSidePositive,
Ah… so you admit that even mere Sexual Assault, such as innapropriate or unwanted touching of the breasts or buttocks, ought to also be defined as rape.
1:25 pm
John, no, you do not sympathize with me. You don’t get to pretend to be a “good guy” who “sympathizes” with “real rape” victims. You are a person who makes damaging and spurious assumptions about consent, and would be quick to say that a rape victim is somehow lying about or misinterpreting her experience. Do not say you sympathize with me. I’ve seen too much. I know better. If you’re going to be a rape apologist I suppose that’s your choice, but don’t hide behind this rhetoric of “forcible rape victims being undermined by capricious use of the word”…they’re discouraged from coming forward because of statements like the ones you’ve made in this thread. If you don’t care about rape victims, fine, it’s a free country, but pretending to care insults us. Really, really insults us.
Having sex with the perpetrator again has nothing to do with whether or not rape occurred, and whether or not trauma resulted from that rape.
1. Many rape victims are raped repeatedly by the same man. They’re afraid to come forward, and they’re told by people like you that their experiences weren’t rape. They’re scared, beaten down, and easy victims–especially since the man who raped them already has such power over them.
2. Many rape victims are in a relationship with or married to their rapist. Even if one partner rapes the other one sometimes, there are bound to also be some (relatively) consensual acts in there too. (I say “relatively consensual” because once someone has established that degree of power over you, it’s extremely difficult to even know which way is up. There are times with rape victims when the line between consent and submission becomes so blurred as to become indistinguishable, at least in the mind of that victim.)
3. Heck, even without a relationship, that same “relatively consensual” sex happens. Once you’ve been raped, you’ve been shown your place in the hierarchy of the world. You do what you have to do.
4. Denial. Some rape victims choose to have sex with their attacker after the fact in order to prove to themselves that the initial encounter WASN’T actually rape…not because they actually believe it, but because they want to believe it.
Those are just four possible reasons. There are a lot more. Your claim that the fact that many rape victims have sexual contact with their abuser after the fact somehow shows they weren’t truly traumatized is just plain wrong.
1:29 pm
Put simply: insulting one rape victim, or one “type” of rape victim insults ALL rape victims. And it’s a very slippery slope between people who claim that women who go to frat parties are partially responsible for their rapes to claiming that, for example, the recent gang rape victim in California was responsible for hers. The people talking about how she was alone, drinking, and wearing a dress, and “what did she expect?” As far as I’m concerned, that’s actually not all that far from the initial comment that going to a frat party is like making yourself available to hungry bears.
1:30 pm
No…that’s sexual assault. I have consistently referred to rape in the context of intercourse.
Different states will have different rules as to what sex acts constitute rape, which allows some level of confusion: in some, it can only be a penis in a vagina, which means that forced sodomy, or being penetrated with an object, or forced to perform or receive oral sex is called “sexual battery,” “sexual abuse” or some variant thereof. I find this too narrow, since the abovementioned sex acts are comparable to rape in practical terms, and the narrow definition refuses to acknowledge that men may also be raped.
If I were to write the law, I would say that anything that involved the unwanted contact or use of at least one party’s bare genitals would constitute “rape,” but from a legal standpoint if some of those are termed “forced sodomy,” “unlawful penetration,” etc. I don’t mind as long as the prison sentences are comparably long and consistently meted out.
Unwanted touching, groping, humping, etc. are all important forms of sexual violence and should be prosecuted and punished. Not with as long prison sentences as rape, but it does need to be taken very seriously. Furthermore, I don’t think anyone here is trying to conflate groping with rape…it’s just a strawman that you’ve put up. We ARE saying that physical violence does not actually need to take place for intercourse to be rape.
1:32 pm
The line “No…that’s sexual assault” refers to Rob’s claims, of course. As I was typing my comment Melissa posted, so please don’t anyone think my comments above refers to Melissa!
1:34 pm
Addressing me, Justine wrote (#51):
I am not arguing that women are confused about their oppression. I am mocking those ideologues who insinuate that very thing; I think you confused me with them.
1:37 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote (#58):
If the study’s designated rape victims say that they weren’t raped, AND if they had sex with the person that the study bogusly designates as the rapist, then the primary reason for them doing so is because the original act was never rape to begin with. Of course, in your little list you left out the possibility.
1:44 pm
Melissa wrote (#61):
That’s okay, you’re entitled to your opinion (as am I).
Again, they said on an academic survey that they weren’t raped, and they had sex with the person who you have designated as a rapist who has control over their minds. Apparently this fiction of mind control over those who are really non-victims extends also into the realm of responding to academic surveys. I guess they were under the guy’s spell as they were filling in their responses.
1:50 pm
Yes. Absolutely.
1:50 pm
John–there is a legal definition of rape. If the act that occurred fit the legal definition of rape, then it was.
Again, a very significant number of people (yourself included) do not understand what the legal definition of rape is. If you don’t know what your first amendment rights are, how can you tell if they have been violated? If you don’t know the symptoms of a stroke, how can you tell if you or a family member is having one? If you don’t know what the word rape means, how could you know to call it that?
1:54 pm
Furthermore, you have failed miserably to address the main point that “the physical sex act” does not IN ANY WAY define rape. The only thing that does is CONSENT. — LeftSidePositive
and,
No…that’s sexual assault. I have consistently referred to rape in the context of intercourse. — LeftSidePositive
And further, what if a 15yr old consents to sex with an adult?
And, I didn’t put out the strawman of sexual assault. One of your allies did further up, by saying that attempted rape is criminal sexual assault, and therefore it ought to count in the numbers.
You can get charged with criminal sexual assault for grabbing a woman’s boob without consent.
If I were to write the law, I would say that anything that involved the unwanted contact or use of at least one party’s bare genitals would constitute “rape,” — LeftSidePositive
I see. So you have no problem with expanding the definition of rape to go beyond forced penetration, and include acts of Sexual Assault.
We ARE saying that physical violence does not actually need to take place for intercourse to be rape. — LeftSidePositive
And so, you wish to blur the lines of degree and conflate coercion or other such methods of extracting sex to be considered as the same level of seriousness as a stranger dragging a woman behind a dumpster and having his way with her by knifepoint. There ought to be no difference in severity at all, eh?
I see a huge difference. And I’ll bet women who have been forcibly raped in such a manner would agree with me.
1:59 pm
LeftSidePositive, the definition of a crime precedes that of a violation of the law. If it were not so, then what is the purpose for making something violative in the first place?
That said, just because something is a violation does not necessarily make it a moral crime. If the legislature arbitrarily defined murder as encompassing the mere imagining of the act, and punished violations consistent with murder victims, that in itself would not make the act of wishing murder on someone to be an act of murder.
Think also of the precedent that you are setting by embracing this line of thinking. Imagine a married couple who are completely happy with each other. In barges the State, arresting the man for raping the woman, carrying him off to prison over her screaming denials that he ever victimized her. Of course, they arrest the alleged rapist on the pretext of protecting her, because after all, the law knows better.
That’s the logical outcome of disempowering women of the right to describe their own experiences. When you couple the power of a prosecutor with the protests by a non-victim of the bogus charges, what you end up with is injustice.
2:01 pm
John, here is the way the victims were classified as such by the survey:
a) Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?
b) Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you don, etc.) to make you?
c) Have you had sex acts (and or oral intercourse or penetrations by objects other than the penis) when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down) to make you?
Answering yes to one or more of these questions MEETS THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF RAPE and therefore, whether or not a woman knows what the legal definition of rape is, THE ABOVE ACTS ARE RAPE.
Furthermore, the investigators evaluated the positive responses and found that only 3% of those responding yes “were judged to have misinterpreted questions or to have given answers that appeared to be false.”
2:06 pm
Rob–I would say that women who have been dragged away and raped at knifepoint could ALSO charge their assailants with battery, assault with a deadly weapon, kidnapping, etc., etc., and all of these are serious crimes with their own prison sentences.
However, that does NOT mean that an individual who finds herself in a situation where a trusted friend gets on top of her and has sex with her without her consent would have any less right to charge her assailant with rape, because he did rape her.
2:09 pm
First of all, LeftSidePositive, thanks for responding so well, with much less reactionary anger than I am. I admire that. :)
Second of all, John, in this oh-so-”logical” hypothetical scenario of yours, where the happily married, never-violated wife is screaming for the police to let her husband go, that he never did anything wrong…who exactly turned him in? The wife who’s now screaming for his release?
Rape victims whose experiences meet the legal definition of rape but who are not yet ready to call it that may deny it, sure. But they won’t “scream” it. They are not desperate to protect the man (or woman) who forced sex on them against their will from justice. Your scenario isn’t bringing this discussion to its logical conclusion, it’s bringing up an entirely different scenario, unrelated to what we’re talking about here. (And also occurring in a made-up world where “The State” can barge into people’s houses and arrest them for crimes they were never accused of.) We’re talking about the real world here.
2:09 pm
“That said, just because something is a violation does not necessarily make it a moral crime.”
Look at the questions I quoted above–do you think those acts are NOT moral crimes?!?!
If that is what you think, I am disgusted with you beyond words.
Your married couple scenario fails to address the basic workings of evidence and the criminal justice system so it’s not in any way relevant.
2:12 pm
And also, you can pose as many hypothetical situations as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that what I’m talking about happens. In the real world with real victims of real rape. They often don’t identify their experiences as such, AND they often go on to have sex (consensual and/or non-consensual) with their attacker again. How do you juxtapose all your hypotheticals with my actual facts and still not even consider the idea that you might be wrong?
2:25 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote:
Survey question A:
A woman can get drunk or high on her own volition, regardless of whether someone gives her the substances. The man in question can also partake of the same substances. If sexual activity then ensues, and both are under the influence, and if the MAN regrets it later, does this constitute a violation of the law by the woman? Does it constitute a moral crime by the woman? Since we live in a country where definitions of a moral crime vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, culture to culture and person to person, and since the law evolves over time in the courts and in the legislatures, I reject your assertion that there is a one-size-fits-all definition of rape, which in your view is whatever the feminist zeitgeist says it is. The law varies, and cultural and/or personal perceptions vary. What’s most important is that non-victims should have control over their sexuality without it being undermined by the heavy hand of the law.
Survey question B:
The question does ignore lesbian rape, but other than that this would seem to fit the generally-accepted social notion of what constitutes rape.
Survey question C:
What bothers me about these two questions is that they assume that consent is not given because the desire did not exist. If the man holds the woman down but she doesn’t say no to him in some way during the entire act — if she doesn’t express her lack of consent — then how is he to know that he’s acting contrary to her wishes?
Men can’t hear what women don’t say. This may be why 3/4 of the supposed rape victims did not consider it fair to describe the experience as rape, because most of them were interacting with acquaintances rather than strangers (possibly a boyfriend or a date), and even during the act may have been trying to decide whether they enjoyed it or not. Deciding after the fact that they didn’t want to, or didn’t prefer being held down, still does not necessarily constitute a moral crime — and I believe that the women in question who denied their alleged victimization knew it.
Other than that caveat, I think that sexual activity following violent threats is perfectly sanctionable — a woman need not express non-consent in such a scenario, as the expressed threat of violence negates her consent from the outset. Violent behavior, however, is in my opinion more gray, because merely holding a woman down can be described as violent and yet is often part of the dance between sexually consenting partners.
2:27 pm
Rob- I have been reading through the comments, and I am struck by the number of times that you feel the need to say “Traditional” Rape. You said
“You are Statistical Rapists. Justice Rapists. Whatever you want to call it. You certainly don’t care about women who have been Traditionally Raped if you dare to insult them by including an innappropriate fondling of their breasts as the same relevance of a strange man pulling a woman behind a dumpster and penetrating her with the threat of a knife to her throat.”
So to you “Traditional Rape” is a stranger jumping out from the darkness and using a weapon on a woman while he rapes her while she fights him the whole time saying “no,no, no.” It is exactly that type of messed up definition that causes woman to not be able to name what happened to them.
I was raped and no it was not a “traditional” rape. A trusted friend raped me while I was passed out in my own bedroom. We lived in the same house, but were never intimately involved, we were just friends. I played the self blame game for a long time – I was drunk, I should have locked my bedroom door, I should have fought or screamed, etc. I also didn’t know what to call it for a long time – after all he was my friend, it occurred in the safety of my own room, he didn’t have a knife, and I didn’t fight. But in spite of that, it was RAPE. He entered my room without my consent, he used my body without my consent, and just because I was so drunk and terrified that I was unable to fight or scream, doesn’t mean that I consented to it or wanted it.
There is no such thing as a tradtional rape, a justice rape, or any other type of categorization you want to use. RAPE IS RAPE. Penetration without consent is rape. End of story. You clearly have not talked to many rape survivors, because survivors everywhere know the importance of not comparing experiences and not minimizing what happened because it doesn’t meet some inadequate definition. Rape is horrible no matter the surrounding circumstances. All survivors have to live with the after effects. If you bothered to research the topic at all you would find that things like PTSD and depression affect all “types” of rape surviors the same – survivors of brutal rape, survivors of partner rape, survivors of date rape, survivors of incest, etc.
And as to your belief that
“If women do not possess the intelligence or social awareness to discern whether their experiences are Traditional Rape, or even one of the Lesser Rapes, it ought to make one wonder whether it’s wise to allow them out of the house at all unless accompanied by a proper chaperone, who can make these important distinctions for them.”
It is exactly because of people like you that women often do not know what to call what happened to them. They can’t match their experience up to your definiton of “traditional” rape. There is also the issue that for many women, saying it was makes it all real, it makes it a lot harder to run away and hide from the horrible truth. Healing from rape is a long hard process, and for many people the first step on the path to healing is in fact denial and minimization. If you tell yourself it didn’t happen or it wasn’t that bad or it wasn’t really rape, then you think you don’t have to deal with the after effects. After all, if nothing happened, then there is nothing to heal from, right? It’s when the aftermath of rape becomes so bad – the inexplainable depression, or the fear of sexual touch, or the nightmares and flashbacks- that many women have to be truthful with themselves and acknowledge it for what it is.
I have talked to many other survivors who describe horrible rapes, even what you label “traditional” rape, who refuse to use the word “rape”. They cannot bring themselves to say it. Are you telling me that they are stupid or not socially aware or that it didn’t happen? Just because a survivor doesn’t know how to name their experience, or can’t emotionally bring themselves to the point where they can acknowledge it was rape, doesn’t change the fact that they were indeed raped. The facts are simple: PENTRATION WITHOUT CONSENT IS RAPE.
2:28 pm
Melissa wrote (#76):
Actually, what kicked off this whole dialog is Amanda’s invocation of a bogus statistic: “1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetimes.” I was disagreeing with the accuracy of that statement.
2:29 pm
Melissa,
Where did anyone deny that Traditional Rape happens?
LeftSidePositive,
And a person charged with murder could also be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, battery and even noise violations and endangering the public if they discharge a gun, if you want to go that route.
And yet, they aren’t. They are charged with a Capital Crime called Murder.
Btw, since Murder and Rape both carry similar prison sentences, lengthwise, one wonders why we have three separate definitions of murder?
1 – First Degree Murder – Cold Blooded, Premeditated Killing
2 – Second Degree Murder – A crime of passion – not premeditated
3 – Third Degree Murder – AKA. Manslaughter. Unintentially causing death through other forms of violating the law. Eg. Two guys get into a fist fight outside of a bar (assault), and one guy winds up dead.
2:37 pm
“If sexual activity then ensues, and both are under the influence, and if the MAN regrets it later, does this constitute a violation of the law by the woman?”
You’re conflating regretted sex with rape. They’re not the same thing. And people are smart enough to know the difference. If a man gets too drunk to consent to sex and a woman violates him anyway (whether or not she’s under the influence), then of course it’s rape. If both parties consent but one or both regret it later, that’s not rape. Both of these facts fit cleanly into the legal definition of what rape is, and what it is not.
I agree with you that if no lack of consent is expressed, then the aggressor cannot reasonably be expected to know to stop. However, you’re assuming that non-consent must always be verbal. If someone dissociates, does not engage with the aggressor, and lies still, out of it, uninvolved and dissociated throughout the act…no reasonable person could mistake it for consent. Or…if someone repeatedly uses physical cues (such as pushing the aggressors hands away, turning his/her face away, trying to get away, etc.)…no reasonable person could mistake that for consent either. When you say things like “merely holding a woman down can be described as violent and yet is often part of the dance between sexually consenting partners,” it shows that you’re open to the concept of non-verbal communication between potential sex partners.
Oh, and there’s a huge difference between someone who holds his partner down while still caring about whether or not she’s enjoying it (for example, if she asks him to stop or tries to get away, he’ll STOP)…and someone who holds someone down against her will and rapes her.
All three questions are about someone using force “to make you.” That doesn’t in any way describe consensual sexual play.
2:41 pm
John–NO ONE says rape is defined by “regrets it later.” This is a cheap lie that rape apologists such as yourself use to deny that consent was denied.
If a man has sex WHEN HE DOESN’T WANT TO–at that moment, not later–because the other party made the sex happen, then yes, he was raped.
What total bullshit to say that consent may not be given “but desire is still there.” Without POSITIVE consent, it’s rape. If you don’t know what the woman is thinking, as you say, you CANNOT proceed without consent. Holding someone down without consent is not “part of the dance,” it is rape. If you say, “Let’s have rough sex!” and she says, “great!” then you can hold her down (within reason), but you can’t imagine that she’s consenting when she isn’t saying anything. She might be terrified for her life if she says no. If someone is “still deciding if they enjoyed it” while the sex is going on, IT’S RAPE–consent must be given BEFOREHAND. If you are having sex with someone before she has decided she wants to have sex, you are raping her.
Threats don’t have to be violent to be coercive–there could be the threat of violence, the threat of blackmail, public or social humiliation, threat of losing a job or other assets, threats that you wouldn’t be believed if you reported an objection–all of these are rape, and morally unconscionable.
2:45 pm
I’ve been watching all the rhetorical bullets fly, and trying to keep an open mind about the “facts” presented, but when I saw good ol’ Rob assert that there are three definitions of murder, implying by omission that there was only one legal kind of rape, I kinda lost it.
Have you ever heard of “rape in the second degree”? In most jurisdictions, this is unwanted, penetrative sex with the threat of physical violence, as opposed to “rape in the first degree.” (This being that “Traditional Rape” (whose tradition? wtf?) which you fellows seem to imagine always happens behind a dumpster and involved a knife.)
And then there’s “first degree sexual assault” and “second degree sexual assault” and…
Gracious, it sure does seem that the legal system recognizes that there is a spectrum of sexual crimes, not all warranting the same severity of punishment, doesn’t it? So what, exactly, are you asshats arguing about, again?
2:45 pm
Rob–what makes rape such a heinous crime is not force or physical violence, but it is the debasement, violation of personal autonomy, and sexual exploitation.
2:49 pm
Murder and Rape donot carry similar sentence lengths. The sentence time for rape is mor often than not much shorter. Take a look at page 5 of this report http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/SSOSAReport.pdf . You will see average sentence for sex crimes( including rape) is 90.8 months. Compare that to murder 2 at 204.9 months. (Do not compare it to manslaughter, because manslaught is taking a life without intent to murder, its an bad accident. Rape is NEVER a bad accident). Now I know this report is from 2003, but it illustrates the point and I wager if you found the report from 2008 you would see a similar trend – that murder sentences are longer than sentences for sex crimes.
2:52 pm
Sorry about the typos in my previous comment.
2:55 pm
Let’s have another look at John Dias’s hypocrisy, shall we?
He says:
“What’s most important is that non-victims should have control over their sexuality without it being undermined by the heavy hand of the law.”
But, IN THE SAME POST, he thinks that men should be able to start having sex with women who are “trying to decide whether they enjoyed it or not.”
How on earth can someone “have control over their own sexuality,” when it’s apparently ok that someone can BE HAVING SEX WITH THEM without their knowing whether or not they want it?
2:58 pm
Wren,
So, they lump “sex crimes” together with rape, to show that the sentences aren’t long enough?
And they exclude Manslaughter (a shorter sentence) than the two more severe types of murder, to create a bigger gap.
Wow!
That’s rather dishonest, don’t you think?
It would be more honest to compare jail sentencing for acts of violence, inculding murder.
3:00 pm
“Acts of violence, including murder”
In yet another mind-blowingly obvious act of omission, Rob just implied that rape is a non-violent crime. Let’s all give him a hand folks.
*clap*
*clap*
*clap*
3:01 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote (#82):
Positive consent, eh? So you’re just fine with carrying out a criminal prosecution against a man who was never told “no” or “stop.” You see, I’m not fine with that; I consider it an injustice. I think that it’s unreasonable to impose incarceration just because someone didn’t obtain expressed legal consent prior to the onset of sexual activity. I seem to remember a video parody of the wackiness of certain university campus policies on obtaining expressed consent, where lawyers for both parties enter the room of a man and women about to “do the deed,” they negotiate legal terms, forms are signed, and everything is made official.
Feminist often make a stink about the state intruding into the bedroom; in this case, I think that a few of them (such as yourself) would be guilty of doing just that.
3:04 pm
As has been mentioned before, consent does not always take a verbal form. Neither does non-consent. And 90% of men in the world are perfectly capable of telling the difference between consent and non-consent, and respecting it.
3:05 pm
John, what is so hard about obtaining positive consent? To crib a bit from a previous post of Amanda’s, women do not wander around in a constant state of sexual availability to any man in the vicinity, provided he can fuck her before the words “no” or “stop” escape her lips.
It’s really, really simple to avoid this sort of ambiguity which drives you so very mad. BEFORE you put your dick in her ass, mouth or pussy, say, “Hey honey, you sure you want this?” to which she can say “yes”, “no”, or “let’s just kiss” or any one of a hundred variants. And her partner, as a sentient, thinking person, can interpret her response. What is so complicated about this?
3:05 pm
Lol! Clapping K.
I suppose I should have realized the level of intelligence of who I was talking to.
If you want to include lesser crimes like sexual assault alongside more serious ones, like rape, to illustrate the length of sentencing, then it is only fair to include lesser acts of violence, like assault, alongside the more serious acts of violence, like murder.
It’s really not that difficult to skew numbers.
3:08 pm
As has been mentioned before, consent does not always take a verbal form. Neither does non-consent. And 90% of men in the world are perfectly capable of telling the difference between consent and non-consent, and respecting it.
And yet, as has been illustrated several times, women are not perfectly capable of telling the same difference themselves.
Bring out the chaperones!
3:09 pm
If you had actually taken the time to look at the report, they do include manslaughter in their statistics (the average sentence is 67.6 months, for your information). As I said, the reason I did not include it in my comment is not that I am dishonest, but that I do not believe manslaughter is comparable to rape in the intent of the crime. Murder 2 includes intent to murder, manslaughter does not. Rapist always intend to rape their victims. Its not like a guy accidentally ends up in a position of his pants down, on top of a passed out girl. Rapist doen’t “accidentally” violate their victims.
3:10 pm
Um, yeah. Women are perfectly capable of telling the difference. I fail to see how your statement has been “illustrated.”
3:12 pm
Wren,
I’ll bet that “Thirty Second Rapist” would beg to differ.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=thirty+second+rapist&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
3:24 pm
Nope, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t. She told him to stop and he didn’t. 30 seconds is actually not at all short in “sex time.” Oh, and your own google search brought up this really awesome blog post about that story, and by extension about our whole topic here. I recommend it.
http://persephonesboxblog.blogspot.com/2006/04/rape-in-30-seconds.html
3:26 pm
Wow – you are going to try and pull the “I am going to find one instance where a guy was wrongly convited of rape.”
Btw, had that woman not latter stated that it was a set up, then it still would have been rape. If she had in all honesty withdrawn consent, then it was rape. If consent is withdrawn, then it is withdrawn and you stop. Guys act like once they start they HAVE to finish. No. If I ask you to stop you can pull out and finish yourself off. Is that a bitchy thing to do, maybe? But better safe than sorry. Because sometimes it takes a long time to muster the courage to ask someone to stop. Shock is a big thing in rape. Unless you have been there, you do not understand the tricks your mind plays on you and the shock you go through when it starts to happen.
3:26 pm
Well, Melissa,
It seems that several of you have been trying to argue that many times a woman does not understand whether she has given consent or not – I believe you claimed this yourself, not to mention the survey that is in question.
And yet, a person who exists outside of your personal thoughts is perfectly capable of understanding your intent?
3:30 pm
Wren,
That’s not what I tried to do.
You said that a guy doesn’t find himself with his pants down “accidentally” violating a victim.
And yet, here is a guy who had already had his penis inside a woman’s vagina, and had been engaged in the consensual act of sex.
He certainly did find himself with his pants down, and in fact, even “accidentally” found his penis was already legally inside a vagina.
Lol! And you want to equate that with Traditional Rape?
That’s what you are arguing.
3:34 pm
Rob–not to speak for Melissa, but from my point of view:
We are not saying that women don’t understand if they’ve given consent or not (if that were the case, they wouldn’t answer the question positively on the survey!). We are saying that they don’t understand that the LACK OF CONSENT ITSELF CONSTITUTES RAPE. Women have been told (and/or erroneously believe) that it was her fault for being drunk, she didn’t fight hard enough, she wasn’t thrown onto the bed hard enough, she wasn’t dressed “properly,” it was her fault because she went to his apartment, it was her fault because they were on a date, she wasn’t “allowed” to say no because she had kissed him or had sex with him or someone else before, blah, blah, blah… In these situations she is perfectly clear on the fact that she didn’t want to have sex (and in many situations has told him so), she just doesn’t know if she is “allowed” to seek help or if others will take her seriously.
3:35 pm
No one here has been trying to argue that many times a woman does not understand whether she has given consent or not. We’ve only argued that denial is powerful enough to sometimes override that knowledge, and that society’s rape narratives (like yours of “Traditional Rape”) actively discourage women (and men, for that matter) from defining non-consensual experiences not involving a knife or a gun as rape. Don’t put words in our mouths…er…fingers.
The survey also didn’t claim that women are incapable of understanding consent. All of the questions describe clearly non-consensual experiences. Basically what that shows is that many women who will admit that someone has made them “have sex” against their will won’t necessarily have the courage to call that experience rape. Consent was never in question. The “question” (or rather, the huge societal misunderstanding) is whether or not all sex that is forced upon a non-consenting person can legitimately be called “rape.” (Yes, it can.)
3:36 pm
Okay, yes his pants were already down and he was already in her, but he wasn’t accidentally violating her. She asked him to stop and he CHOSE not to. He chose to finish. So yeah, that’s rape.
And don’t you “Lol” me and try to pull out your “tradition” rape crap. Rape is rape. I will equate it with traditional rape, because all rape is emotionally damaging and the aftermath is similar no matter the circumstances.
BTW, thanks for the link, Melissa. It was definitely thought provoking.
3:39 pm
Rob–he didn’t “accidentally” keep having sex with her after she said to stop…he deliberately ignored her wishes and violated her autonomy for that 30 seconds (and yes, a lot can happen in 30 seconds, and 30 seconds if you don’t know when or if it is going to stop is a very agonizing time).
3:50 pm
@John Dias,
Yes, I am perfectly fine with prosecuting a man who raped a woman who did not say “no” or “stop.” She may be terrified, or shocked/stunned into submission. Non-physically-violent rapists are experts at seeking out and systematically manipulating women who are less likely to vigorously object, and state full knowledge of these behaviors on surveys as long as their behavior isn’t called “rape”:
http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf
And, even more importantly, in a world when women are told what to wear, where to go, what weapons to carry in our purse, when we can be alone, when we can drink, what self-defense classes to take, how to act, whom to talk to, and on and on and on, how hard is it for you to learn to JUST FUCKING ASK!!!
3:50 pm
Even if the actual statistic for forcible, completed rape is 1 in 10…which is a conservative estimate based on reported rapes…that’s still too high as far as I’m concerned.
3:55 pm
Can’t both partners be assigned the responsibility of communicating, so long as you’re making incarceration the alternative? I don’t agree with the idea that men have responsibilities whereas women have options, especially when it comes to defining consensual sex. Don’t push all of this responsibility onto the man. Who’s to say that the woman was not the sexually assertive or sexually aggressive party?
4:00 pm
That’s obvious John…either partner can choose to stop at anytime…women are smaller though, and can easily be made submissive. My boyfriend can easily crush me…there’s absolutely no way I could force him to have sex unless he was unconscious or highly drugged.
4:02 pm
If the woman is the sexually aggressive party, then she also has the responsibility to get consent. This is really not that complicated.
4:07 pm
Justine, unless he’s determined to ignore you, you could STOP him with a simple word: “No” or “Stop…” or “Don’t!” would suffice. You’re not powerless, even though in upper body strength you’re probably weaker. And even if you THINK that a man is ignoring you, it’s in your interest to verbalize your non-consent! Why shouldn’t you?
That being said, women aren’t the only ones who can fall under the sexual “spell” of a man, and consent because they felt “swept away.” In fact, I would argue that women have even greater sexual power than men do (of course, feminists generally prefer to deny that female sex appeal is itself power, preferring instead to attach power to physical strength and social status). A stunningly beautiful and sexy woman, coming on to a shy and inexperienced man, certainly has an advantage in many substantial ways, being able to direct the course of an encounter to her liking. That’s just as much a reality as any implication of male “mental coercion” insinuated within this thread.
4:08 pm
John–yes, women DO have responsibilities to get consent. If a man has already asked you “Will you have sex with me?” I think he is giving consent by any possible interpretation. If the woman is the one initiating the sex act (which she is often socialized not to do, but it is a possibility), then yes, she does need to make sure it’s ok with the man.
4:11 pm
John–see the 30 second rapist above. He very well might NOT stop if she says to stop.
And, “swept away” is bullshit. People know whether or not they want to have sex, and the person who is initiating the encounter has a responsibility to obtain consent.
4:12 pm
I know I can say “no” and my boyfriend will stop…someone who is being raped is afraid for their safety
The coercion lies in the fear of consequences not in sexual attraction.
4:13 pm
Falling under someone’s “sexual spell” and “getting swept away” are not the same thing as rape. That sounds pretty darn consensual to me.
As for reasons why someone might not verbalize the word “no”…here’s a list, just for a start: fear, intimidation, having been told that she doesn’t have the right to say no, feeling like it won’t make a difference anyway, wanting to be successful in her role in life as a woman: that is, to be submissive and to get men off, total dissociation, inability to make sound (that happens to me when I get really scared. Like if I’m in a car and an accident almost happens or something, it’s like I try to scream but no sound comes out). Those aren’t even all the reasons. But it’s a start.
4:16 pm
There’s no such thing as a sexual spell anyway…you can think someone attractive but people don’t take it to the point where you’re ripping your clothes off screaming “do me” unless they know damn well that they actually want to have sex.
4:18 pm
“unless he’s determined to ignore you”
Yeah, unless that happens. Cause when that happens, I think, once, somewhere, I heard a name for it… Shit, what’s it called, when a man ignores a woman who says “no” to sex with him….
OH YEAH! I remember: Rape.
4:23 pm
John, what a load of bull. Oh yeah its just sooooooo easy to say “no” or “stop” when someone starts using your body without your consent. NOT
Sometimes it is easy, but for many women, its not. Your mind is thrown into such confusion when someone you know starts doing that to you (afterall most rapists are not strangers to their victims). Many victims dissociate. Fight, flight, or freeze are three reactions to rape, and many times the vitims freezes. Your mind just cannot comprehend that it is happening, it takes a while to sink in and by the time it does, you are too scared and ashamed to ask him to stop.
By saying things like “just say no” you are playing the victim blame game. Many victims cannot find their voices when a rape starts to occur. Does that mean they were asking for it? Lets look at this logically. Is is so hard to figure out that if you start having sex with a woman and she freezes up or becomes completely limp, that she doesn’t want sex? Wouldn’t the average considerate guy seeing the woman he is with in such a state at least ask “is something wrong?” I am not asking men to be mind readers, but most people have some knowledge of body language – enough to know if someone is cringing or pulling away from your touch, you should at least ask if the person is okay.
4:36 pm
Amanda– Answering your request for stats…
Bonnie Fisher has done studies that are more current and less controversial than the Koss study, though I believe the Koss study is perfectly sound.
Fisher’s studies include The Sexual Victimization of College Women and the Campus Sexual Assault Study, both more recent than the Koss study, both funded by the Department of Justice, and both methodologically excellent. The text of the findings is available online for free.
Here is an additional list of prevalence studies: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~sexasslt/arpep/researchabstracts2.html#Prevalence
Depending on the population studied, the stats consistently fall between 1 in 3 and 1 in 6. The numbers are generally significantly higher for women of color and transgendered women. The rate of male victimization is also high, particularly in childhood. This is, of course, all the more reason to fund effective prevention efforts and survivor services, rather than an excuse to disregard victimization of girls and women, as some of your commenters seem to imply.
For the exasperating commenters who willfully misconstrue the Koss findings to argue that the number of assaults is sooo much lower than study after study is showing: I don’t give a rat’s ass if it’s “only” 1 in 16 or 1 in 50 or 1 in 500 women who are being sexually assaulted. That is still too damn many.
4:54 pm
Bleedin’ Christ! It seems that many of you approach intimacy as if it were some kind of intricate puzzle that requires intense contemplation and psychoanalysis to unravel. What are you, a bunch of shy, pimply-faced middle-schoolers?
One of the things that sets humans beings apart as a more evolved species is language. When it comes to any sort of intimate act, is it really so hard to ask? Ask for the kiss, and when that seems to be getting intense, ask for the next step (so you mind if I touch your . . .? do you want to . . .?) This ingenius solution guarantees that nobody is making any sort of contact that is not explicitly consensual and renders most of the above debate, and a lot of time wasted this past afternoon, moot.
Honest to God, the backwardness of many people never ceases to amaze me.
4:59 pm
In my opinion, asking to stop is more crucial (to justice, and to safety) than asking to begin.
5:06 pm
Joe Schmoe,
I can only explain that with Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
Substitute “sexual privilege” for “salary” and there you have it.
As with the link I cited above about the “undetected rapist,” some men want to falsely create confusion about what consent really means, so that they can take advantage of “unclear” situations that really aren’t unclear at all, so that they can exert power over people.
5:08 pm
Yes, Joe Schmoe,
We’ve all heard of the Antioch Rules.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Antioch+Rules&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Lol! You don’t know much about sexuality if you think that is what women themselves seek in a “passionate relationship.”
Perhaps you ought to read a typical romance novel, AKA, porn for women. The Antioch Rules guy – the nice, respectful one, who asks, “may I undo your third button now?” most often gets left, and mocked, as the main character gets swept away by a brute of a man whose nearly every move could be construed as some form of sexual assault or rape by today’s legal standards.
Hey, guys don’t buy that crap and read it for romantic thrills.
Anywho, Ladies,
It’s been fun.
You have, indeed, convinced me that we live in a “Rape Culture.”
Although, not for the reasons what you think of, but rather because it is plainly obvious that “rayyyyyyype” is purposefully left so completely undefineable and all encompassing of so many far flung notions – from the Traditional to the Ridiculous – that indeed, a woman could find Rape in a bowl of Alphabet Soup!
Obviously, Robin Morgan’s views rule the day…
“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” — Robin Morgan
I take claims of rape even less seriously than before.
Enjoy your cats.
5:09 pm
Wow, Joe Schmoe, what a crazy, revolutionary idea! :)
And John, asking to begin is (as Joe Schmoe pointed out), easy. Asking someone to stop, however, is very difficult and whether or not someone is able to ask the aggressor to stop DOES require intense contemplation and psychoanalysis to unravel. Why put all of the responsibility on the person who may or may not be able to say no, instead of on the person who can quite easily ask whether or not it’s ok? There’s nothing to lose, and trust me, there’s nothing mood-killing about asking for consent. There’s nothing sexier than a partner who respects you enough to value your comfort.
5:12 pm
In my opinion, asking to stop is more crucial (to justice, and to safety) than asking to begin.
In terms of legal consequences, I completely agree. I am sure those here who think women have no responsibility to ask for consent or inform others of their consent would agree if we were discussing women being potentially arrested, charged and imprisoned for failing to correctly read a man’s or boy’s non-verbal cues. None of them would support women being charged for sexual assault or rape in that (and most likely in any) situation.
In terms of morality, both are crucial because both are part of basic human communication. One cannot assume others will intuitively know what one thinks, wants or feels. One has just as much a responsibility to make clear one’s level of consent as one must respect others’ level of consent.
I think the reason feminists balk at this concept is because it not only means that their overbroad definition of rape will become more reasonable, it also means there is the possibility women could be considered rapists as a result of following this logic, and as Justine demonstrates above feminists do not think it is possible for any female to sexually assault or rape men or boys.
5:13 pm
Gee Rob, I’m glad that after spending all this time talking to a group of women, you’ve been able to enlighten us on what women want. Obviously, you would know the answer to that much better than we do.
If, after this discussion, you’re still intent on calling rape “undefinable” (when all we’ve done is emphasize a very CLEARLY defined set of criteria for what constitutes rape), then you obviously weren’t listening at all.
Let’s review: sex without consent=rape.
How crazy, complicated, and difficult to define.
5:14 pm
Toysoldier:
I did not demonstrate that, I demonstrated that women are smaller in GENERAL and that anyone who is made to feel powerless can be raped.
5:17 pm
Some people obviously have delusional opinions about what is actually being said here…so congrats to you…no point in arguing with a brick wall.
5:18 pm
John Dias,
Great!! Then I guess it’s ok if I shoot you! You’ll just have to endure a few gunshot wounds before you realize what’s going on or are able to say no (assuming you’re not in too much pain to speak at that point), and then I’ll totally stop (or maybe after shooting you for 30 more seconds). But yes, it’s totally best for safety and justice to hold the victim responsible for how an assault plays out.
5:22 pm
Umm, actually Rob, you may find it hard to believe, but language itself, if used properly, can be a major sexual turn-on for men and women.
This isn’t a poetry seminar, but it’s not like “gee willikers, you sure are a pretty thing. wouldja mind if we . . . pretty please”.
5:23 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong on this, Justine.
Justine’s comment didn’t say that it is not possible for any female to sexually assault a man. She only said that it is not possible for her to sexually assault her boyfriend. Not the same thing.
“I am sure those here who think women have no responsibility to ask for consent…”
Pray tell, who here said that? You know, besides the two of us who specifically said that women have just as much responsibility to ask for consent when they’re the sexual aggressors as men do…
“None of them would support women being charged for sexual assault or rape in that (and most likely in any) situation.”
This may be an honest mistake, I know the thread’s getting really long. Earlier on, I mentioned an adult male I know who was raped by a woman. And I made a point of saying that there’s absolutely no gray area–that it was rape.
5:24 pm
Whoops, I didn’t see that you’d already commented, Justine. Scratch that part.
5:25 pm
Toysoldier, what planet are you on?!?!
“I am sure those here who think women have no responsibility to ask for consent or inform others of their consent would agree if we were discussing women being potentially arrested, charged and imprisoned for failing to correctly read a man’s or boy’s non-verbal cues.”
Let’s review the statements by the most vocal posters here:
LeftSidePositive (me):
“yes, women DO have responsibilities to get consent. If a man has already asked you “Will you have sex with me?” I think he is giving consent by any possible interpretation. If the woman is the one initiating the sex act (which she is often socialized not to do, but it is a possibility), then yes, she does need to make sure it’s ok with the man.”
Melissa:
“If the woman is the sexually aggressive party, then she also has the responsibility to get consent. This is really not that complicated.”
and
“If a man gets too drunk to consent to sex and a woman violates him anyway (whether or not she’s under the influence), then of course it’s rape.”
Justine:
“That’s obvious John…either partner can choose to stop at anytime”
Who exactly is saying that women have no responsibility to ask for consent?! What concept are feminists balking at?!
5:34 pm
Rob seems to think works of fiction can operate as proxy for consent. I guess that means I can punch him in the face because Brad Pitt seemed to enjoy it in “Fight Club.”
5:52 pm
Rob, I know what I am saying is falling on deaf ears, but I have to say it anyway. I spent half my afternoon checking this site. Why, you might ask? Because it is people like you that make victims remain silent about their experiences.
At first I thought you were just a misogynist who doesn’t like to think about things like rape or having to ask for a girl’s consent because that means she is a person not a sex object. But I can hardly believe that after all you heard today you think that women look for rape at every turn and get off on making baseless accusations of rape.
The only possible explanation I can come up with for your position is that you in fact have been guilty of the sex without consent thing that you so poetically call “rayyyyype”. Is that why you like to talk about “Traditional Rape” so much, because that is the only type of rape you are willing to admit is valid, and since you didn’t do that, then you are not a rapist? So tell us, is that it? Did you do it a couple of times when the girl was passed out or clearly not into it, but heck she didn’t fight you so that made it okay? Silence is compliance to guys like you. Or maybe she did say no, but you knew deep down she really wanted it.
Is the reason you are going to “take claims of rape even less seriously than before” because here today, that horrible thing called a conscience started pricking you, and you don’t like it so you are going to ignore the problem. So what your saying is “Heck if I say rape doesn’t exist in the world, then I am guilty of nothing and its just a bunch of crazy cat ladies making accusation because they don’t like penises”, is that it?
6:01 pm
Melissa wrote (#124):
What matters is who is incarcerated, and why. I can’t think of anything more disturbing than ideologues shaping laws based on what they subjectively consider sexy. Disagree, and it’s the slammer for you.
6:06 pm
Yes, what matters is who is incarcerated and why. Rapists sometimes (though not very often), end up incarcerated. How could those people have avoided becoming rapists and thereby avoided the whole prison thing? By asking for consent. I was just preemptively responding to the frequent argument (which Rob did actually make) about asking for consent “ruining the mood” or “not being sexy.” I was pointing out that there’s nothing to lose by asking for consent.
I find it hard to believe that you think that the entire definition of rape (let’s review: sex without consent=rape) is based on what women consider “sexy.” At this point, it’s hard to assume anything except you’re being deliberately obtuse.
6:07 pm
John: You person should be incarcerated if you HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.
Why in the world is this so hard for you to grasp?!?!
It has nothing to do with whether or not your asking for consent is sexy or not. To do anything else is A GROSS VIOLATION OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING’S MOST INALIENABLE RIGHTS.
6:09 pm
Yikes! Grammar!!! oops…
6:12 pm
Melissa: Why put all of the responsibility on the person who may or may not be able to say no, instead of on the person who can quite easily ask whether or not it’s ok?
Until one person withdraws their consent, both people have the same responsibilities, so the question becomes if a person withdraws their consent, do they have a responsibility to inform the other person of that?
This may be an honest mistake, I know the thread’s getting really long. Earlier on, I mentioned an adult male I know who was raped by a woman. And I made a point of saying that there’s absolutely no gray area–that it was rape.
I read that, however, my statement was in regards to a person being charged with sexual assault or rape based on someone failing to read non-verbal cues correctly.
Justine: I did not demonstrate that, I demonstrated that women are smaller in GENERAL and that anyone who is made to feel powerless can be raped.
Your comment as an anecdotal representation the situation between men and women. In it you stated that you could not rape your boyfriend because of your size unless he was “unconscious or highly drugged,” which implies women cannot rape outside a limited unlikely set of circumstances.
LeftSidePositive: Who exactly is saying that women have no responsibility to ask for consent?! What concept are feminists balking at?!
If you re-read my comment, it is not limited to women asking for consent, but also informing others of their lack of consent. In regards to the statements you quoted, considering the context in which the statements were made, it seems fair to question whether the statements were disingenuously made.
6:21 pm
Toysoldier–you talk about “withdrawing” consent. In order for consent to be withdrawn, it has to be given first.
So, if a girl unequivocally says “yes” and THEN changes her mind, she would indeed have to inform her partner or he wouldn’t be legally responsible (unless she were screaming, pushing away, or similarly obvious).
BUT that consent MUST be given first for the above to be valid. Without explicit consent, anyone initiating a sex act has no idea of the permission of the other person and it is totally false to assume that everyone is fine with anything happening on their body until they say “no.”
We have stated OVER and OVER again the many ways that men make women unable to say “no” and then act like silence is consent.
6:22 pm
Consent which has never been given does not need to be withdrawn. As has already been mentioned, women do not exist in a constant state of consent which must be revoked if she does not want sex. So no one has a responsibility to withdraw consent, really. Consent must first be established.
I hope you don’t honestly believe that someone could be convicted of sexual assault based on failing to interpret non-verbal cues correctly. If you want to have sex with a woman, and she looks terrified, and then goes totally limp in your arms and lies there, dissociated, while you do things to her that she hasn’t consented to…who in their right mind would have trouble understanding that that isn’t consent? If a woman spends the whole time trying to escape, constantly moving your hands away in any way she can, and trying to get out from under you…how could that possibly be misinterpreted?
6:24 pm
Another thing–that consent has to be consent FOR THAT PARTICULAR SEX ACT. If a woman is kissing you, it’s not consenting to sex. If a woman is dancing with you in a club, it’s not consenting to sex. If a woman says you can drive her home, it’s not consenting to sex. If a woman is wearing a miniskirt, it’s not consenting to sex. If a woman is naked and sucking your dick, it’s not consenting to any other sex act than the one that’s going on.
JUST FUCKING ASK!!!!
6:25 pm
Toysoldier: I’m not trying to minimize the ability of men to be raped, abused, or sexually assaulted. The problem is universal, and a result of flawed logic in society. Why would you agree with people who are arguing that rape is overblown when you yourself are standing up for male victims?
6:38 pm
As a guy, I’m disgusted by the rape apology dudes who crawl out of the woodwork whenever “x out of x” phrase.
The rape apology dudes use disputes over numbers in particular studies to pretend this invalidates rape discussions and proves women are exaggerating and/or not trying hard enough to avoid being raped.
I personally think attempts, sexual assualt and under reporting is important, but let’s leave them out for now.
Consider the bare minimum hard data which can’t be denied – The FBI’s Crime In The United States Report for 2008, the last complete year.
The rate of forcible rapes is 57.7 offenses per 100,000 females. The murder rate is 5.4 murders per 100,000 people of both genders.
This is based on confirmed reports of forcible rape. It doesn’t include attempts or sexual assaults. It’s also based on clear homicides, not justifiable or negligent manslaughter.
Does the relative rarity of intentional murder mean we shouldn’t make a big deal about it?
Do we assume murderers can’t help themeselves and thus place social *and legal* emphasis on how victims didn’t try hard enough not to get killed?
Except for hardcore objectivists, no and no is the answer. So why is it okay to treat the far more common crime of rape this way? Killers are held to account for their choices, why is rape subject to this deflection?
6:46 pm
Digusted Dude,
I just wanted to thank you for you comment. Finally a comment from a guy who is not trying to minimize rape. I wish more men thought like you and not like Rob.
Wren
7:09 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote:
You should be incarcerated if you have sex with someone despite their objections.
7:20 pm
John: In related news, you still haven’t objected to my shooting you, so by your logic I can take your silence for consent.
7:23 pm
Disgusted Dude wrote (#145):
In response to your inflation of the victimization of women and the deflation of the victimization of men, I quote from Richard Felson, PhD of Pennsylvania State University (as published in the journal Partner Abuse in January 2010):
In the context of this thread, men’s victimization from violence quantitatively exceeds women’s victimization from violence in terms of the number of victims and the frequency of victimization.
Feminists (attempt to) get away with downplaying the seriousness of male victimization by claiming that it is not “gendered.” And here you are claiming that people who disagree with your polarized views on victims are apologists. Projecting much?
7:33 pm
LeftSidePositive: BUT that consent MUST be given first for the above to be valid. Without explicit consent [...]
All consent is not explicit. That is part of the issue. It is possible for a person to misread non-verbal cues and we cannot assume that all cues for giving or withdrawing of consent are the same. Logically, this means we should conclude that a person has committed rape if the person knowingly engages in sex with a person with their consent. If a person genuinely believes they have consent, it is unfair to accuse them of rape, unless some other criteria (age, intoxication, etc.) comes into play.
Justine: Why would you agree with people who are arguing that rape is overblown when you yourself are standing up for male victims?
I agree with them because there is a difference between stating something occurs and should be addressed versus stating something is a virtually uncontrollable epidemic and all members of a particular group are inherently the cause of that epidemic. One raises greatly needed awareness while the another simply creates undo panic, hyper-vigilance and prejudice.
7:40 pm
John, I think you’re being extremely selective about where you get your stats:
http://www.yale.edu/uhs/med_services/share/violence-statistics.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/domestic_violence/article.htm
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=971
http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/barbara/barbara.html#id136977
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
and here is a lovely smackdown of your source:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/9/1711
7:51 pm
Toysoldier: no no NO NO NO!!!
If you do not have explicit consent, you are potentially criminally liable. Aggressively prosecuting people who claim to “honestly believe” they had consent (including court cases WHERE THE VICTIM SAID NO but “secretly wanted it” and all the other such nonsense) would go a long way to protect women (and men) from attackers who terrorize their victims into silence.
Again, how hard is it to JUST FUCKING ASK?!?!?!
Why do women have to go to so much effort to protect themselves from rape when so many men think it’s ok if they forced women into having sex because they “misread non-verbal cues”??
7:52 pm
Toysoldier: “If a person genuinely BELIEVES they have consent, it is unfair to accuse them of rape, unless some other criteria (age, intoxication, etc.) comes into play.”
Don’t play into that mind set. How many rapists convince themselves that they have genuine consent when they don’t? The answer is quite a few. This is the type of stuff that leads to victim blaming. I have had male acquaintances brag about having sex with girls in circumstances that clearly imply rape. I even asked them if they ever asked for consent. The answers I got were horrendous…”She was obviously asking for it, I mean look at the way she was dressed and she was rubbing up against me all night.” – Okay a drunk girl who was dressed as a slut and grinding on you at a club, I can see how a guy would read that as her wanting to have sex. One guy told me “No, I mean she was screaming no the whole time, but come on all girls get off on the pretending that they don’t like it, they like the force.” These girls were one night stands, so no previous history with the guys. Now I never talked to the girls, but that’s not the important thing.
The important thing is guys beleive alot of things are genuine consent, when how can you really know without asking? Its one thing if you have a history with the person and the sex is not forceful, and she’s into , etc. Consent is pretty obvious in those situations, but the times when its a date or a friend or a stranger, how can you possibly assume to know what the other person is thinking. You can beleive what you want but if you have sex and the other party does not consent to it, then its rape. I mean I can genuinely beleive I am the President of the USA, but that doesn’t make it true, that makes me crazy and I would be going to the nut house not to the white house if I went around saying it all the time.
Why is it so hard to agree that just asking a simple question and respecting the answer is the way to go?
7:54 pm
Amanda Hess,
I wrote a post linking to numerous sources that have more credible statistics than the very politically-motivated and methodologically suspect Felson’s. It had a lot of links in it so your spam filters must have deleted it. If you can find it in the rejected posts, could you please post it?
Thanks very much!
8:05 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote:
If people routinely annihilated each other in order to bond and procreate, then I could certainly see the value of your intensely convoluted point.
8:09 pm
John–my point is very simple: you don’t get to assume you have permission to do ANYTHING to anyone’s body (or property, for that matter) unless you have specific consent. People are individual autonomous beings and deserve to have the time and opportunity to make their own decisions, not to have advances or actions, well, thrust on them. This may come as a shock to you, but women are people too.
8:14 pm
Another thing you apparently need spelled out: a lot of damage (physical or psychological) can happen between starting to attack someone (sexually or physically) and the earliest point the victim could react. That’s why it’s imperative that you interact with people in a way that you KNOW–not imagine, not wish, KNOW–is all right with them BEFORE you take action.
8:15 pm
You can get nonverbal consent by progressing slowly through a romantic interaction, and paying close attention to visual and auditory cues. From stage to stage, pay attention to whether there is resistance of any kind; if there is, then that is the boundary that you must not cross. If, however, there is no resistance, you can proceed. This assumes that you are doing all the assertive actions and that she is merely passively sitting there, acting as the sexual gatekeeper. Of course, the same scenario can work the other way with the genders reversed.
The point being that not everybody has to conform to your uptight and shrill little rules, Mister “Just F—ing Ask!!!!”
8:23 pm
John Dias, if you do just what you suggest, if she calls the cops the next morning you have earned yourself 10 years in prison because you DID NOT get consent. What is your idea of “progressing slowly” might be her idea of “terrifying.” You have no way to know unless you ask.
What the hell is wrong with you if you think that someone “merely passively sitting there” is anything you’d even WANT from a sexual encounter? Why are you so insistent about not asking? Is it because you know deep down you’re a rapist (or fantasize about being one) and if you actually asked for consent you wouldn’t get it?
Again, since this seems to be so hard for you to grasp: women are asked to modify their behavior in SO MANY WAYS to prevent themselves from being raped. All we are asking from men is to add one little tiny question to their sexual routine, and to respect the answer.
8:25 pm
Why am I so insistent? It is you who are insistent, to the point of intruding into the bedroom. Get the hell out!
8:27 pm
And you seem to think its ok to intrude into women’s vaginas. Get the hell out!
8:28 pm
Oh, the horror. She verbalizes her feelings. How oppressed we have made women these days.
8:29 pm
And, ask before sexual contact is a “shrill little rule” much in the same way that “pay for merchandise before you leave the store with it” is.*
*if, or course, either the store or the merchandise could suffer lasting psychological and physical trauma as a result of your actions.
8:37 pm
It is that exact attitude of women as “sexual gatekeepers” that makes these disgusting apologist arguments seem superficially valid. Women are NOT resistant to sex that they WANT. They will be actively kissing, touching, participating in the sex act. If the girl lies there passively and whimpers, that is NOT two people having sex, THAT IS RAPE!
This is what those horrid feminists mean when they talk about “rape culture.” Women are trained not to assert sexual desire in case they are labeled “sluts” whilst men are told that women need to be convinced, coerced or intimidated into sex.
tl;dr: If she’s not fucking you back, YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!!!
9:22 pm
Ah… I check back and look at what I find!
A bunch of shrews FALSELY accusing men who challenge them to be RAYYYYYYPISTS!
Sorry toots! Never even came close to rape, nor a false accusation of one.
You know why?
Because everytime I have sex with a woman, I dirty talk the crap out of her, and make her tell me what she wants…
“What do you want?”
“You know what I want.” She whispers.
“Get on all fours and put your ass up in the air… tell me what you want!”
Silence…
“What do you want?”
“You know what I want!” She says, with lust dripping from her voice.
“Smack!” His hand playfully spanks her behind.
“What do you want?” He demands, more forceful in his tone.
“I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME!” She exclaims.
And so he gets behind her and she feels his penis slide into her well moistened womanhood.
“Smack!”
She feels a small sting as he spanks her again, causing her vagina to reflexively squeeze his presence inside of her.
“Tell me what you want!” He demands.
“Fuck Me!” She cries out. “Fuck me hard!”
His pace quickens, but he demands she keeps telling him what she wants. Sometimes she gets caught up in the moment, submitting herself to the pleasures of both her mind and her body.
“Smack!”
Another hand spanks her ass cheeks.
“Fuck me” She pants. “Fuck me harder!”
She knows now that if she wants to be satisfied, she will have to keep shouting out “Fuck Me!” And she does, loud enough for the neighbours to hear.
As she approaches climax, her elbows collapse, causing her face to dive into the pillow.
“Do me… Do me…,” her voice gets muffled by the pillows.
“Smack!”
She jolts up again and screams “FUCK ME!” as loud as she can…
—
LOL!
Thanks again for the interesting conversation ladies.
The reason why I don’t get falsely accused of rape is because not only do I get repeated consent, but I make damn sure she lets the neighbours know I got it too.
You girls are da bomb!
9:53 pm
/thread
This has been your rape discussion for the evening. Please move towards the exit as Rob plays you out with some lite porn. Please be aware of any dumpsters you may pass on you way home, and always remember: “if she doesn’t say no, that means yes!”
*soft clapping*
10:07 pm
I guess Rob is pretty insecure that he needs to fantasize so vividly on a blog post!
Two points:
1) Depending on how the spanking and yelling is being done, and unless you two have an agreed-upon safe phrase, Rob’s little wet dream does have the potential to get coercive, and he seems to get off on the idea of being forceful and degrading towards women. Red flags!
and, more importantly:
2) If Rob really is as conscientious about getting consent as he claims, why does he spend so much time and energy trying to claim that women don’t understand consent, that only “traditional rape” is valid, that “lesser rape” could possibly exist, that there’s a “Rape Industry” out to lie for your taxpayer dollars, and all of this other vile nonsense he has spilled on this blog?
10:40 pm
Depending on how the spanking and yelling is being done, and unless you two have an agreed-upon safe phrase, Rob’s little wet dream does have the potential to get coercive,… — LeftSide Positive.
So now coersion is rape?
I thought you just finished droning on and on and on that what matters IS VERBAL CONSENT! And that’s ALL that matters.
Like I said, you could find Rape in a bowl of Alphabet Soup! How dangerous it is to let ideologues like you decide for other women what is, and what isn’t Rape.
How about if a popular boy whips out the Antioch Rules – for real, in paper form – and has her sign off on ever level of the sexual, ahem, dance… and she feels coerced into going along with each phase because he is popular, and she wants to be popular too? Still Rape? I’ll bet you’ll find a way.
By the way, I didn’t say the guy was yelling. She was – and she was yelling out her consent repeatedly, and heartily. Wouldn’t wanna become a 30 second rapist now… and just wanna make sure I’ve got consent at each and every single possible moment!
A safe-word would be “Stop! I’m not enjoying this”
Duh!
I say to society, “RED FLAG!”
The Rape Industry needs something they are scared shitless of… CLOSE SCRUTINY!
10:46 pm
Basic English Fail:
Inflected Form(s): co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology: Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark
Date: 15th century
1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to achieve by force or threat
10:54 pm
2 : to compel to an act or choice
Would you like to have sex with me?
Basic fail at reading what you yourself post.
“Mom, can I have some money for candy?”
“No.”
“Please, Mommy, I really want some candy!”
“No.”
“Waaaaaahhhhhh!”
“Quiet”
“WAAAAAAAHHHHH!”
“OK, OK, if I give you money for candy, will you quit crying?”
“Yes, Mommy”
I suppose the child now stole from the mother, eh?
10:55 pm
Another Basic English Fail:
com·pel (km-pl)
tr.v. com·pelled, com·pel·ling, com·pels
1. To force, drive, or constrain: Duty compelled the soldiers to volunteer for the mission.
2. To necessitate or pressure by force; exact: An energy crisis compels fuel conservation. See Synonyms at force.
3. To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway: “The land, in a certain, very real way, compels the minds of the people” (Barry Lopez).
10:57 pm
A mother is not compelled to give in, they choose to give in.
10:58 pm
3. To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway: “The land, in a certain, very real way, compels the minds of the people”
I just can’t make this stuff up.
10:59 pm
Btw…If you’re compelled to have sex you have some serious issues.
11:01 pm
Exactly, irresistible FORCE. No one should be forced to have sex, get a clue! I’m not entertaining this anymore, you’re lucky I was sick today and had the energy to do not much else.
11:02 pm
Good Grief… ever hear of Love?
Oh yeah, that’s right. You’re a feminist.
11:03 pm
3. To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway: “The land, in a certain, very real way, compels the minds of the people”
Were the people FORCED to allow the land into their minds?
11:05 pm
Once I fell in love with a decent, kind, non-feminist woman, I felt compelled to burst into song.
11:06 pm
Luke… use the force!
11:08 pm
Are you like in Grade 3?
Did Santa leave you your first Dictionary this past Christmas?
11:11 pm
I found the cleavage spilling out of the decent, kind, non-feminist woman’s blouse to be so attractive, that I felt compelled to instantly flash her a smile and try to strike up a conversation with her.
11:12 pm
It was difficult, because the cleavage was so attractive, that I found my eyes being coerced to drop from hers, and lower themselves down to her magnificent chest.
11:23 pm
Yes, coerced and compelled sex ARE rape. Verbal “consent” isn’t really consent if someone has no alternative–if you are forced to say “yes” when you don’t mean yes, then that “yes” should not hold up in a court of law.
What the hell is wrong with you if you think coerced sex is acceptable?
I’ll have to raise Justine one further and say you are showing a Basic Human Decency Fail: treat others with respect, and don’t have sex with someone unless she (or he) genuinely wants to have sex with you!! Why do you keep claiming that is difficult to understand?!
No one is claiming a desire to “be popular” is equal to coercion. Nor is a six year old making noise. That is an insult to the very real threats women face. These can range from blackmail, being fearful of losing your job, of losing your place to live, of being denied a greencard, of being arrested, of being publicly humiliated, of harm coming to your friends and family, etc., etc.
As for the 30-second rapist, I’ve already said that if consent has clearly been given, it needs to be clearly withdrawn.
If someone is hitting/spanking you, and you haven’t agreed to be hit or spanked, why would you think “stop” would be an effective safe phrase?! If you haven’t **clearly established** mutual trust, do NOT have pugilistic sex! If someone you barely know is hitting you, it’s entirely reasonable to be afraid that resisting could lead to further physical retaliation.
11:32 pm
Rob, are you trying to look as stupid as you do?!
To “feel compelled” to do something yourself is not the same as someone else compelling you to do something. The first is a metaphor for a strong desire, the other is when someone is forcing you to act CONTRARY to your desires.
“I found my eyes being coerced” makes no sense AT ALL. With “compel” you can play dumb with idioms, but “coerce” is pretty damn clear.
11:34 pm
Alphabet Soup, meet RAYYYYYYYPE!
John & Rob: the ONLY matter that defines rape is CONSENT. Not force. Not past or future intercourse. Not what other writers may or may not be saying. Not what someone was wearing or which club they went to. Did the woman (or man) give consent to the person with whom they had intercourse? If not, then it’s rape. End of story. — LeftSidePositive, comment 58
A salesman coerces you into buying a car, and when you say “yes” and write him a check, he is not stealing from you.
Goalpost, meet the moving crew.
11:36 pm
By the way, women often coerce men into marriage by with-holding sex.
11:40 pm
She believes that if he gets horny enough, he might feel compelled to comply with what she wants.
Little does she know, that he wouldn’t marry a feminist in the first place, since they have lost all sense of rationality, and femininity… and quite frankly, after listening to her drone on and on about her ridiculous ideas, he realized that she had nothing but sex to offer to a man in marriage.
And probably really bad sex at that.
So he dumped her sorry ass and went over to talk to the decent, kind, non-feminist woman who had more attractive things to offer as a spouse than mere sex.
11:47 pm
How exactly is the car salesman *coercing* anybody? What would constitute coercion in this interaction? What vital threat is a car salesman able to hold over your head?! Do you even understand what the word “coerce” means?!
11:57 pm
So Rob, are you having fun yet? Sorry if I don’t feel your brand of erotic writing to be entertaining. Some guys just need to overcompensate by making up “cool” stories where the girl begs for it and then tells everyone she knows how amazing it was.
So, quick question did you come up with that all on your own? or did you lift from your favorite literotica story? Just curious.
12:01 am
How exactly is the car salesman *coercing* anybody? What would constitute coercion in this interaction? What vital threat is a car salesman able to hold over your head?! Do you even understand what the word “coerce” means?! — LeftBrainImobilizedByStoke
Inflected Form(s): co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology: Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark
Date: 15th century
1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to achieve by force or threat
12:02 am
So, quick question did you come up with that all on your own? or did you lift from your favorite literotica story? Just curious. — Wren
Nah, just off the top of my head.
12:03 am
Rob, this boils down to some very simple questions:
1) Do you believe that women are human beings?
2) Do you believe that women are equal to men?
3) Do you believe that human beings are autonomous moral agents?
4) Do you believe human beings deserve to decide of their own free will with whom they want to share sexual acts?
12:04 am
Btw, Wren… I am aware that erotica is genre of literature… one favoured by many, many women… but Literotica is quite a large online pornsite.
A little Freudian Slip there?
12:06 am
Rob, this boils down to some very simple questions:
1) Do you believe that women are human beings?
2) Do you believe that women are equal to men?
3) Do you believe that human beings are autonomous moral agents?
4) Do you believe human beings deserve to decide of their own free will with whom they want to share sexual acts?
No, it doesn’t boil down to these things.
This is a discussion about Rape, and how you and your feminist movement can find Rape anywhere that you look.
Duh!
Stop moving the goalposts just because you are getting your ass handed to you.
12:07 am
Well congratulations – you can now joint the hundreds of people who have wirtten the exact same thing. You know, some people get off on rape literotica. With your lack of creativity, lack of conscience, and disreagrd for the feelings of the victims – you may have found your calling in life. Lite porn fo rapists – a career you can write home about. Something to make Mom proud.
12:10 am
…some people get off on rape literotica.
Double slip!
12:14 am
And btw, rOB, I am sick of being off topic. The thing we all came here to discuss ir rape. So back to topic. Since you disagree with everything everyone here has said, please define for us what rape is to you?
12:19 am
Sorry for the typos, but it is getting late, and there is no way I am going to convince Rob that rape is penetration WITHOUT CONSENT. I just hope that any survivor that stumbles across this post, sees the valid points made by LeftSidePositive, Justine, and Melissa, and sees Rob’s comments for what they are: baseless, inconsiderate, and ignortant rantings of a troll.
12:22 am
We are discussing Rape, just now why you like reading about it at Literotica.
You should do a survey of the authors there and find out which sex writes the most rape fantasies… and your usual culprits don’t count.
Btw. I have made it clear, Traditional Rape. Being forced to have sex against one’s will, by violence or threat of violence. All else is certainly a Lesser Rape – and many ought to be completely redifined to drop the Rape label altogether.
Certainly the screeching about the 30 Second Rapist makes you look quite foolish if you so insist that they are in the same category.
So does the instant moving of the goalposts from Explicit Consent to suddenly including coersion or feeling compelled to engage in the act of sex.
12:43 am
Well, Rob, if you ever act on your legally inaccurate and highly flawed definitions that you have constructed for yourself, I will do everything possible to see that you and rapists like you are locked up under the harshest sentence permissible by law.
12:46 am
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/rape.html
“Rape
The crime of rape (or “first-degree sexual assault” in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim’s inability to say “no” to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called “date rape”), or even when the offender is the victim’s spouse.
Under a variation known as “statutory rape,” some states make it unlawful for an adult to engage in sexual intercourse with a person who has not reached the age of consent (usually 18 years of age).”
U.S. Code Section 2241, Aggravated Sexual Abuse
“(a) By Force or Threat. – Whoever, in the special maritime and
territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal
prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons
are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or
agreement with the Attorney General (!1) knowingly causes another
person to engage in a sexual act -
(1) by using force against that other person; or
(2) by threatening or placing that other person in fear that
any person will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or
kidnapping;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned
for any term of years or life, or both.
(b) By Other Means. – Whoever, in the special maritime and
territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal
prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons
are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or
agreement with the Attorney General (!1) knowingly -
(1) renders another person unconscious and thereby engages in a
sexual act with that other person; or
(2) administers to another person by force or threat of force,
or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug,
intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby -
(A) substantially impairs the ability of that other person to
appraise or control conduct; and
(B) engages in a sexual act with that other person;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned
for any term of years or life, or both.
(c) With Children. – Whoever crosses a State line with intent to
engage in a sexual act with a person who has not attained the age
of 12 years, or in the special maritime and territorial
jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any
prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in
custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with
the Attorney General (!1) knowingly engages in a sexual act with
another person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or
knowingly engages in a sexual act under the circumstances described
in subsections (a) and (b) with another person who has attained the
age of 12 years but has not attained the age of 16 years (and is at
least 4 years younger than the person so engaging), or attempts to
do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of
years or life, or both. If the defendant has previously been
convicted of another Federal offense under this subsection, or of a
State offense that would have been an offense under either such
provision had the offense occurred in a Federal prison, unless the
death penalty is imposed, the defendant shall be sentenced to life
in prison.
(d) State of Mind Proof Requirement. – In a prosecution under
subsection (c) of this section, the Government need not prove that
the defendant knew that the other person engaging in the sexual act
had not attained the age of 12 years.”
U.S Code Section 2242, Sexual Abuse
“Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of
the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison,
institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by
direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the
Attorney General (!1) knowingly -
(1) causes another person to engage in a sexual act by
threatening or placing that other person in fear (other than by
threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person
will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or
kidnapping); or
(2) engages in a sexual act with another person if that other
person is -
(A) incapable of appraising the nature of the conduct; or
(B) physically incapable of declining participation in, or
communicating unwillingness to engage in, that sexual act;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned
not more than 20 years, or both.”
1:05 am
I will do everything possible to see that you and rapists like you are locked up under the harshest sentence permissible by law. LeftBrainParalyzedByStroke
That’s what, the THIRD time that you’ve FALSELY accused me of being a rapist?
Wow!
And yet, feminists have been claiming for years that a woman would never lie about a thing so serious as rape! Why would she?
Apparently, it does take that much! Sometimes just pissing a lunatic woman off will get you accused of being a Rapist!
Btw. You should read the law quote a little closer.
1:10 am
This post is about bogus metaphors used to blame rape victims and pretend it’s not a real crime.
And as usual we get hardcore misogynist rape apologists trying to derail it with the usual rape apologist red herrings and bogus arguments and, a special treat, flat out porn.
There’s no difference betwen any of them, be they openly embracing rape like Rob or spouting false arguments like “In response to your inflation of the victimization of women and the deflation of the victimization of men…”
As if discussing rape as a serious problem for women is somehow taking things away from men.
I’m tired of these guys. The hatred of women is so transparent. The desperate need to shut down any discussion of rape as if it was somehow a direct threat and personal affront is both annoying and disturbing. The use of such telling words as “deflate”, as if acknowledging injustice towards women was a threat to their genitals would be laughable if it did not indicate such a controlling rage.
Guys like Rob and John Dias are one and the same. The prove the point of the post: misogynists will say and do just about anything to downplay rape as a criminal act because it is largely committed by men against women.
1:11 am
I said IF you ever act on those beliefs, not that you necessarily have.
1:23 am
Rob, this boils down to some very simple questions:
1) Do you believe that women are human beings?
2) Do you believe that women are equal to men?
3) Do you believe that human beings are autonomous moral agents?
4) Do you believe human beings deserve to decide of their own free will with whom they want to share sexual acts?
No, it doesn’t boil down to these things.
This is a discussion about Rape, and how you and your feminist movement can find Rape anywhere that you look.
Duh!
Stop moving the goalposts just because you are getting your ass handed to you.
—-
No, you are getting your ass handed to you. You’re having to pretend you don’t know the meaning of simple English words so you can pathetically try to keep arguing.
There is no goalpost moving here. Question #4 is the exact same point we have been stating all along–DON’T HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE IF THEY DON’T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. If you do have nonconsensual sex, then it’s rape.
Questions #1-3 are an attempt to characterize why the incredible obviousness of #4 seems to be lost on you.
1:25 am
Disgusted Dude,
Tra la la LA!
Here he comes! Captain Save-a-Ho appears out of the phone booth!
“I’ll save you poor, helpless women who can’t rub two thoughts together without my manly presence! Pleeeeease give me a crumb of affection! I don’t get any by presenting the Antioch Rules!”
You should go back and check some of your accusations, bubba.
Again, you just can’t make this shit up!
1:28 am
Rob, I’ve never met Disgusted Dude and for all I know he may have a hunchback, two teeth, and one leg, but I can say for DAMN sure that he’s a hell of a lot more attractive than you could ever be.
1:35 am
John & Rob: the ONLY matter that defines rape is CONSENT. Not force. Not past or future intercourse. Not what other writers may or may not be saying. Not what someone was wearing or which club they went to. Did the woman (or man) give consent to the person with whom they had intercourse? If not, then it’s rape. End of story. — LeftSideBrainDrainingFluid, comment 58
Yes, coerced and compelled sex ARE rape. — LeftSideNowBrainDead, comment 183
Can your brain not keep a linear train of thought for more than 30 minutes at a stretch?
It’s getting tiring proving what an idiot argument you are presenting.
By the way, I LOVE Sarah Palin. She’s a G.I.L.F., well, she used to be… now she’s just a M.I.L.F.
I’ll bet you can find a way to make that into rayyyyype as well.
Come on!
I dare you!
No, I double dare you!
Not only that, her sexiness is increased 10,000% because she did not abort her Down’s baby, but chose to love him instead.
Come on, you can pull Rayyyyyype out of that, can’t you?
What a filthy hate movement feminism is.
1:43 am
Coerced and compelled sex are BY DEFINITION sex for which there is no consent. That’s what “coerced” and “compelled” means, as Justine has already shown you. The two statements you quote are functionally equivalent.
I have no idea why you’re going on about Sarah Palin, but it only shows how desperate you are to deflect an argument you’ve lost.
1:59 am
Lol!
You’re a lunatic of the highest order.
I have given you so many example of “coerced” and “compelled” that illustrate a lack of force, except when you take “force” out of context.
Obviously, you’ve been educated in Chinese, and have only learned English as a second language.
It’s also obviously the first time you’ve ever opened a dictionary.
Your own friggin definitions that were provided CLEARLY explain what I am saying is correct within the English Language.
And, any familiar with English, clearly understands the examples I have given.
If you want to get all retarded on me and pretend you don’t speak English… well, perhaps you ought not be talking about subjects that demand life imprisonment for people you quite clearly FALSELY accuse of capital crimes.
It’s gotta be pretty hard for you to move the goalposts from here… I mean, there’s hardly a solid piece of ground to stick the post into, after all your moving and poking into a new place.
LOL!
2:02 am
Anyway, LeftBrainDead,
I’m signing off.
It’s getting late, and like I said, I care EVEN LESS about claims of rayyyyyype than ever before, so much of it is obviously false, after listening to you lunatic girls.
But, it’s been fun smacking around your extremely low level of intellect.
Get some sleep yourself, toots, and perhaps grow that brain of yours a bit.
2:15 am
You have stuck the words “coerced” and “compelled” into sentences, and utterly failed to show how those sentences were valid. You’ve erroneously claimed the idiomatic “I felt compelled” is the same as an outside entity compelling someone to do something against their will, which is nonsense. I have already pointed out the absurdity of such a conflation, and you haven’t corrected it.
You seem to think a sales pitch is coercion, and fail to show any indication of how these situations you’ve cooked up indicate any level of physical, psychological, or economic force.
Epic fail.
You can’t even bring yourself to admit the fundamental truth that no one should be forced to have sex if they don’t want to. In other words, you are so morally bankrupt that you can’t admit that rape is wrong.
2:15 am
I wake up in the morning and look what I find…
Rob, were you drunk while writing this or something? It’s the only logical explanation I can think of for this level of idiocy to emerge. Much worse than earlier in the thread.
Your idea of us getting our asses handed to us includes arguments like “Here he comes! Captain Save-a-Ho appears out of the phone booth!”"Luke… use the force!” and “By the way, women often coerce men into marriage by with-holding sex.” Oh, and to top it off, the whole trying to threaten that no one will marry us thing, as if that’s going to intimidate us enough to appease you?
Here’s a crazy thought for you: some of us might not want to get married at all. Some of us might want to marry women. And those of us who do want to marry men certainly wouldn’t want to marry one like you. So good luck trying to intimidate feminists that way–it won’t work.
Look, all we’re saying about your personal life is that
1. We don’t understand why you and John seem to think getting consent is so difficult or out of your way, and we don’t understand why you’re arguing it so adamantly. It is a perfectly rational fear that someone who would vehemently argue that getting consent isn’t important might not particularly value getting consent in their own sex life. Asking a simple question and making sure you have consent in your next 100 sexual encounters at least would require LESS energy than what you’ve put into spouting gibberish, insults, and porn into this thread.
2. Consent, verbal or non-verbal, is not complicated or difficult to understand. If someone is consenting to a given sex act, they will actively participate in said sex act. Complete non-participation is not a subtle signal, and it’s not one that could potentially be misread. Pushing someone away is not subtle, and could not be misread. Why are you so worried about men who might read the signals incorrectly? Consent is a very easy concept. And yes, some of us have jumped to the conclusion that if you’re determined to make the ridiculous argument that rape can be an “honest mistake,” you might have some ulterior motive for wanting your own ideas of the non-importance of nonverbal signals to be enshrined in law. This is not unreasonable.
No one has accused you of rape. We don’t even know your last name, or even if “Rob” is your real first name. We don’t know anything about you, least of all the nature of your sexual encounters. We’re just responding to warning signals. A man who doesn’t value the consent of women in general is unlikely to value the consent of his own sexual partners. These are the kind of signals that women have no choice but to note–because if we end up raped, we’ll be blamed for “taking that walk in the jungle with hungry bears.” We have to be on our guard all the time, lest we accidentally end up alone with a man who has expressed views like yours. Because if he rapes us, all anyone (including a jury) will care about is whether or not we “should have known.”
2:16 am
Lol!
As I was standing there, peeing all over the toilet seat before going to bed… I thought to myself.
I shouldn’t have let those lunatic girls’ ridiculously unfounded arguments coerce me into staying up so late, because now my eyelids feel compelled to close.
2:26 am
Again, if you use the words coerce or compel, you need to show how you are being forced…what power do we have to “coerce” you to read a blog? Please illustrate the adverse consequences that endanger you if you don’t.
Your third cranial nerve inhibiting your own levator palpebrae (eyelid muscles) has absolutely nothing to do with someone being forced by another human being to do something in violation of their will or desires.
4:57 am
Yawn!
Not sleepy anymore. Was thinking of Wren masturbating to those Literotica Rape Stories. ***Shudders*** Had a nightmare.
Again, if you use the words coerce or compel, you need to show how you are being forced…what power do we have to “coerce” you to read a blog? Please illustrate the adverse consequences that endanger you if you don’t. — LeftBrainDead
The following are the definitions you provided. Under Compel, Definition #2, did you see the note about “See Synonyms for Force”?
I can try to FORCE a decision out of you by asking a question. You can FORCE men to leave you alone by being a repugnant person.
You are aware that there are different meanings to force than physical force, aren’t you?
Like I said. You can find Rape in Alphabet Soup.
Anywho, let’s see if we can make this even MORE simple for you. Hopefully, this will compel some intelligent thought from you.
Inflected Form(s): co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology: Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark
Date: 15th century
1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
The salesman coerced a decision from Jim by directly asking the question, “Would you like to buy this car?”, compelling Jim to answer Yes or No.
3 : to achieve by force or threat
Sally thought the threat of with-holding sex would be enough to coerce Bob into agreeing to marry her. She was wrong. Oh boy, was she wrong.
——-
com·pel (km-pl)
tr.v. com·pelled, com·pel·ling, com·pels
1. To force, drive, or constrain: Duty compelled the soldiers to volunteer for the mission.
or,
Once upon at time, back in the days before feminism, when women were actually feminine and pleasant, men felt compelled to treat them with respect and consider them ladies.
2. To necessitate or pressure by force; exact: An energy crisis compels fuel conservation. ***SEE SYNONYMS AT FORCE.***
or,
Ridiculous feminist bullshit compelled many men to give women the husband they deserve: None.
3. To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway: “The land, in a certain, very real way, compels the minds of the people” (Barry Lopez).
or,
Feminism, in a certain, very real way, compels many men to no longer care about women’s wellbeing.
5:17 am
It’s almost funny seeing feminists trying to suggest that an attempted rape and an attempted murder are along the same lines – talk about clutching at straws.
An attempted murder is not usually done so by the instigator ‘backing off’… It’s a botched murder attempt.
For example, more women rely on poison or hiring a thug to do their deed. If the amount of poison is wrong, too little, and the person survives – the murder has not occurred and the crime is now attempted. She did not ‘back off’ from the attempt.
Now if we’re talking about a man who is trying to rape and she (the intended victim) gets away, then it’s similar – but that is not the comparison we’re looking at. The majority of attempted rapes are where the man does back off. This is much harder to compare with murder (largely because realistically they don’t even compare – but feminists want us to think of them as similar). When people go out drinking, they don’t typically get into a situation in which another can be giving them signals all evening “come and murder me” only to then find out “Oh, guess what – I don’t really want to be murdered – now I’m too tired.” Of course, I’m not saying this is the situation in every case, but it is a situation that does happen and it can result in a man being accused of attempted rape, when in reality he was only following instincts and drunken urges partly backed up by drunken behaviours of the ‘victim’.
The situations are not even close.
And if I were performing a study of the elderly, and 73.66% of those I had deemed as ‘abused’ told me they were not abused – who the hell am I to insist they are? Who made my opinion on the matter so much more important than the ‘victims’ themselves? If I were to do that – it would be somewhat insulting to those people, reducing their experiences and insulting their ability to make their own decisions.
Mind you … If I happened to have an agenda on my hands, to demonize all carers for the elderly… I too might be tempted to just ignore their opinions in order to further my agenda of hate.
5:42 am
I’m curious…
To the feminist writers here, am I correct in saying that a man who insists on a woman having sex with him, leaving her feeling overwhelmed, is in fact a rapist?
6:26 am
Karl, your argument about how many were unable to identify their experiences as rape has already been addressed and debunked in this (now rather epic) thread. I suggest reading the whole thing.
As for your situation…probably. I suppose there`s a little leeway in the word “insist,” but not very much. “I insist that you have sex with me, otherwise I`ll hurt you” is absolutely rape. Again, rape does not have to involve force, only the threat of force. And by the sounds of the situation you described, it seems like the threat of force is included. That short description is, however, rather ambiguous.
6:29 am
Rob, you`ve left sense and logic so far behind that I don’t even see a point in replying to you anymore. For the record, I just asked an acquaintance of mine (who is a man, not a feminist, and who didn`t know the topic of the thread) about your interpretation of the word coercion, and he (with none of the “agenda” you could accuse me of having) agreed that it was bullshit. It`s not just feminists who insist on the correct usage of the English language.
6:55 am
Just for clarification (English not being my first language and all): Where in the study is it said, that they count a man backing off as attempted rape and not like an attempted murder where something just went wrong (that doesn’t have anything to do with the suspect’s change of mind)?
9:32 am
A few thoughts:
Karl! Way to whip out that Victorian “Poison is a woman’s weapon” crap. *golfclap* Some (hardly exhaustive) googling did not yield *any* actual statistics or reports indicating that this is the case, altho according to the CDC, men are twice as likely to unintentionally poison themselves…
Rob (&John), I have to wonder, how can you use phrases like “Traditional Rape” and “Lesser Rape” with such earnestness. I envision some guy waking up and thinking, “Man! I’d love to get laid today. Should I go to a bar, hit on woman and buy her some drinks, escort her home and engage in some heavy petting, only to have her say, ‘Okay, that’s enough’ and then pretend I didn’t hear, fuck her, and claim I was too drunk to remember? OR should I just be old-fashioned today, take my knife, and hang out behind my building’s dumpster, waiting for that hot chick in 5A to wander by? Decisions, decisions…”
Here’s my take on the ridiculous “Traditional” vs. “Lesser” rape crap: That guy-behind-dumpster-with-knife image makes the rapist out to be an inhuman ogre. A predator who will attack any target, a being with no conscience or empathy. A monster.
The we-both-got-drunk-I-think-she-said-no-but-I-was-horny scenario means the rapist could be a totally “nice, normal, considerate dude” who got “carried away.” Which means he could be (or already has been) such fine, up-standing fellows as our good friend John & Rob.
I understand the fear of being falsely accused as well as anyone. But, as Melissa et.al. have been arguing, IT IS NOT HARD to avoid that kind of ambiguity. (hee! pun!) Just incorporate requests for consent into any sexual encounter. As Rob so eloquently demonstrated above, this can be… um… “erotic.”
And IF SHE SAYS NO, be a fucking man and respect that decision. Fuck.
9:47 am
Rob,
You have been found guilty of mind rape. Please surrender yourself to the nearest police station. If one cannot be found, then the nearest “wymonz studies” department will do.
You have been ordered.
TMOTS
9:55 am
Before you run back to your MRA buddies saying “a bunch of feminists accused me of rape!!!” please note the difference:
We are accusing you of espousing ideas and attitudes that can lead to rape on an individual level, and to the excusing and rationalizing of rape on a larger societal level.
We have not accused you, personally, of having raped a woman. We don’t know that. All we know is what we hear, and we should be allowed to call out dangerous attitudes that, if you truly consider them valid, could put the women around you at risk…without you twisting the story to make it sound like we’re saying without a doubt that you’re a rapist. Maybe you’re not. Maybe you’re just full of shit. We don’t know you. We don’t know.
10:13 am
Rob, you bastard, it is men like you that make me sick to my stomach. Oh its so funny, lets insult Wren and claim she masturbates to rape porn.
Yeah, because most rape survivors love reliving it. I get off when I wake up in the middle of the night because I had a nightmare where I relived my rape. And I really enjoy it when I am at work and someone jokes about rape and I am suddenly having a flashback. Oh yeah it so fun.
You are a sick creep. But thank you for posting all that you have here. Any point you are trying to make is clearly lost by your disreagard for common decency. In doing this, you leave other readers two choices – agree with sicko Rob or agree with everyone else. The average person thankfully will see the bile you spewed here and agree with people like Melissa, LeftSidePositive, and myself. So thanks for being an ignorant jerk.
10:51 am
Ladies, ladies… can’t we all just get along?
11:26 am
Melissa,
We are accusing you of espousing ideas and attitudes that can lead to rape on an individual level, and to the excusing and rationalizing of rape on a larger societal level.
We have not accused you, personally, of having raped a woman. — Melissa Reading Comprehension Much
You lie, lie!
The only possible explanation I can come up with for your position is that you in fact have been guilty of the sex without consent thing that you so poetically call “rayyyyype”. Is that why you like to talk about “Traditional Rape” so much, because that is the only type of rape you are willing to admit is valid, and since you didn’t do that, then you are not a rapist? So tell us, is that it? Did you do it a couple of times when the girl was passed out or clearly not into it, but heck she didn’t fight you so that made it okay? Silence is compliance to guys like you. Or maybe she did say no, but you knew deep down she really wanted it.
Is the reason you are going to “take claims of rape even less seriously than before” because here today, that horrible thing called a conscience started pricking you, and you don’t like it so you are going to ignore the problem. So what your saying is “Heck if I say rape doesn’t exist in the world, then I am guilty of nothing and its just a bunch of crazy cat ladies making accusation because they don’t like penises”, is that it? – Wren – Comment 135
Is it because you know deep down you’re a rapist (or fantasize about being one) and if you actually asked for consent you wouldn’t get it? – LeftBrainDead – Comment 159
Well, Rob, if you ever act on your legally inaccurate and highly flawed definitions that you have constructed for yourself, I will do everything possible to see that you and rapists like you are locked up under the harshest sentence permissible by law. — LeftBrainFlatLining – Comment 200
If you throw around accustions of being rapists that easily, in other words, just because someone disagrees with you… one wonders how easily you would falsely accuse a man of rape if, say, you became a jilted lover after having your ass dumped for much more pleasant, feminine women?
Nah, I find it pretty hard to take rape seriously at all, when all of you victims whip accusations around like you’re rolling pennies down the street. Bring it back to Traditional Rape… and let the accused have back their rights and get rid of unconstitutional rape shield laws… and punish proven false accusers with an exact same prison sentence as they were trying to railroad someone else with.
11:32 am
LeftSidePositive: If you do not have explicit consent, you are potentially criminally liable. Aggressively prosecuting people who claim to “honestly believe” they had consent [...] would go a long way to protect women (and men) from attackers who terrorize their victims into silence.
It would also go a long way to help convict innocent people of sex crimes in which the people did honestly believe they had consent. Explicit consent is just that: explicit. Taken literally, that means that if a man engages in sex with a woman who did not verbally say “yes,” he is potentially criminally liable for rape even if the woman physically initiated and continued the sex. Reverse the situation: do you honestly think that because I have never explicitly stated “I want to have sex with you” that every woman who has had sex with me is potentially criminally liable?
Again, how hard is it to JUST F*****G ASK?!?!?!
Since the age of three I have had sex with women, and in my twenty-three years of sexual activity no woman has ever asked me for my consent. They have told me what they wanted me to do, pushed my head, hands or other body parts towards whatever they wanted me to engage in and asked when I disassociate during the sex whether I think they were terrible in bed, whether I was bored or accused me of being gay. But not once has any woman ever asked for permission to use my body. And based on conversations with my friends, no women have ever asked them either.
I would be inclined to agree with you if it appeared women engaged in the thing they want men to do for them. But they do not. It apparently is very hard for women to just ask, in which case they should understand the difficulty.
Wren: Don’t play into that mind set. How many rapists convince themselves that they have genuine consent when they don’t? The answer is quite a few.
Then there is no reason to assume addressing those who actually believe they have consent will lead to victim-blaming. I am not talking about intoxicated people. I am talking about the way most people engage in sex, which typically occurs without much explicit consent given. A person may say “Have sex with me” (probably in more vulgar terms), but that does not always happen. It is possible that a person only wants to kiss, but that person rubbing the other person’s body could be interpreted as an indication to go further.
What you and others seem to imply is that with women this never occurs, i.e. women never give non-verbal cues that men could misinterpret.
Dorothy: Just for clarification (English not being my first language and all): Where in the study is it said, that they count a man backing off as attempted rape and not like an attempted murder where something just went wrong (that doesn’t have anything to do with the suspect’s change of mind)?
None of the studies linked here made any distinction between the types of attempted rape. The questions were more or less “Has a man tried to have sex with you against your will, but it did not result intercourse?” Some studies may have asked why it stopped, but none to my knowledge have.
11:41 am
I haven’t read every post in this entire thread, so apologies if I’m repeating something that’s already been said, but I think it’s important to point out that the most “damning” of Rob’s quotes from feminists is apparently a fake.
I’ve poked around quite a bit online this morning, and I’ve found no evidence that Catharine MacKinnon ever said that “all sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.” The quote appears hundreds of conservative websites, but it’s not recorded or quoted anywhere on Google Books, either in MacKinnon’s own writings, or in criticisms of her. It looks fake, it smells fake, and I’m pretty sure it is fake.
11:44 am
“the drunk driving analogy applies only to women who go to frat houses – both behaviors are stupid & dangerous, & it’s only a matter of time before your stupidity bites you on the ass.”
I know this was way WAY upthread but..> WHAAAAAT!!!?!?!?!
It’s not okay for women to actually go to frat houses. But it is okay for frat boys to rape whoever comes over because they shouldn’t have been there in the first place? Lets jsut completely excuse the b ehavior of these boyse because they are just boys. But women who hang out with them and try to have a good time are just asking to be raped?
Plus, not all frat boys are rapists, not all frats have rapists in them. Is it really fair to characterize frats as the place of rape?
A person can get raped anywhere a rapist is present. What makes the situation dangerous is not the situation, but the presence of a rapist.
11:44 am
Rob, you bastard, it is men like you that make me sick to my stomach. Oh its so funny, lets insult Wren and claim she masturbates to rape porn. — Wren
And yet, you let loose two Freudian Slips in a row calling the genre of erotica to be the very large porn-site Literotica, indicating to me that, indeed, you have been to that site and that you have read rape fantasies at said site, since you obviously know that said site does indeed have such literature… much of it written by women themselves who get off on writing, and reading it.
Let me guess, you were doing research?
12:01 pm
Toysoldier and Rob – you both seem to be under the false belief that if a woman or man cries rape then the person they had sex with automatically go to jail. You are giving our justice system a lot more credit and a lot more abuse than it deserves.
If you actually look at the numbers – (Statistics provided by RAINN, originally from the US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justic Statistics, and National Center for Policy Analysis)
60% of rapes are never reported
If the rape is reported, there is a 50.8% chance of arrest.
If an arrest is made, there is a 80% chance of prosecution.
If there is a prosecution, there is only a 58% chance of a conviction.
Of those convicted, only 69% will do time in jail.
SO OF THE 39% OF RAPES THAT ARE REPORTED, ONLY 16.3% OF THEM RESULT IN JAIL TIME FOR THE RAPIST.
And when you factor in unreported rapes, only 6% or rapists will ever spend time in jail.
—–
For a case to be prosecuted, there needs to be a lot more than a woman or man crying rape. If you do not report the incident immediately and get a rape kit done you can basically kiss your chances of having the rapist arrested (not even prosecuted, just arrested) goodbye.
The hard truth for all the survivors out there who never had a rape kit done, is that unless the perpetrator confesses to the crime or turns himself/herself into the police, there is basically no chance that justice will be served. The overwhelming majority of prosecutors in this country are overworked and are not willing to spend the time and resources on a case where there is no physical evidence, a little chance of a conviction.
Is it fair? No. But our criminal justice system does A LOT to protect the accused.
So stop spouting all this stuff, like women like to cry rape and crying rape means a guy goes to jail. The statistics are there. 15/16 times the rapist walks free.
12:08 pm
Oh no Rob, I did not stumble across the site doing “research”. I am “lucky” enough to work in a male dominated field. Lucky enough that a lot of guys are comfortable around me and talk about shit like this all the time. Do I like it? NO. Do I want to hear it? NO. But its a reality, and I know that like you, these guys are not going to change their opinions on things so I just do my best to ignore them.
12:14 pm
Toysoldier–I am very worried for you. Really–very worried.
These scenarios you’re describing are NOT ok. It is NOT acceptable to use someone’s body unless you are absolutely sure the other person is fully in agreement with the sex act. We have repeatedly said this applies to women as well as men.
“I am talking about the way most people engage in sex, which typically occurs without much explicit consent given.”
This is no how mature human beings run their lives. Having the most intimate and special acts between people depend on such hazy communication is not safe, nor is it fair to either party.
This idea that most sex just “happens” without explicit consent is a myth that (mostly men) use to convince themselves that their insecurity about the other partner’s participation is ok.
“It is possible that a person only wants to kiss, but that person rubbing the other person’s body could be interpreted as an indication to go further.”
Again, this is NOT acceptable. This is blatant apologism to perpetuate a false ambiguity that makes it easier for women (and men) to be victimized. You don’t get to play God with what another person is thinking, and use their body the way YOU want, not the way THEY want.
If you’re not mature enough to ask, you’re not mature enough to have sex.
12:20 pm
Heh, first of all, it is pretty hard to estimate what goes unreported, wouldn’t you say? That is ideologically driven.
You are aware that there are large feminist lobby groups funnelling 100’s of millions of dollars to “educate” various law enforcement and judges how to co-operate with the Rape Industry’s agenda, aren’t you?
Btw, it has been proven that an extraordinary amount of false rape allegations are made – far, far, FAR higher than for any other sort of crime… which goes a long way to explaining your twisted numbers.
For example:
http://www.angryharry.com/esMostRapeAllegationsAreFalse.htm
…Researchers like Eugene J. Kanin 1994 have clearly bent over backwards to keep the false-allegation figure as low as possible.
For example, in Kanin’s work …
“… for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.
In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false.”
Kanin’s 45% figure surely therefore represents a rock solid floor given that allegations were counted as being false only when the evidence supporting such a conclusion was pretty overwhelming. Thus, unless the accusers themselves admitted eventually to their allegations being false, they were not counted as false.
Furthermore, given that his research was carried out “in a small metropolitan area” (rather than in a large anonymous city wherein crime, dishonesty and disharmony are far more prevalent) it would not seem unreasonable to suppose that the number of false allegations in such a small place would be much less than the country’s average.
Additionally, much of the other research in this area of false allegations also seems to exclude those rather ‘gray’ cases where the evidence is not very clear – for obvious reasons.
But the gray cases will be the majority of cases!
And if these gray cases could actually be investigated properly (which they probably cannot be) I am sure that the percentage of false allegations would be found to be much, much higher in them.
There is also a question of definition – i.e. what is rape?
And my own belief is that the term ‘rape’ has been so misapplied in recent years that even many of those men who are objectively found to have crossed the line into ‘rape’ have done so only because its meaning has been fudged by the legal profession to include actions that are not, in fact, ‘rape’.
In fact, I do not really have any doubt in my mind that far fewer men will ‘rape’ than there are women who will lie about it.
After all, the former requires some serious criminal intent with the possibility of a very long jail sentence, whereas the latter is very easily done, there is usually much to be gained from it, women are daily being urged to see themselves as having been abused in some way, and – to put it bluntly – millions of women are very emotionally unstable, and most of these would probably even admit to being so.
For example, some 4 million US women have borderline personality disorder – and they are constantly making false allegations of ‘abuse’ – and some 15 million US women have serious emotional problems stemming from PMS every month.
I imagine that these sorts of things account for most of the rape allegations that are made.
Furthermore, the way in which rape cases are handled these days seems almost designed to encourage and attract false allegations.
My belief is that the vast majority of rape allegations are false and, also, that the vast majority of real rapes go unreported.
Indeed, if you were to agree with the latter but not with the former, you would surely have to conclude that there are many times more male rapists running around than there are women who would stumble into making a false allegation of rape.
After all, if it is true that the vast majority of real rapes go unreported, and it is also true that the vast majority of rape allegations made to the police are true, then it follows that men are raping women many times more often than are women making false allegations.
And, in my view, this possibility is extremely unlikely – particularly given the way in which many millions of women are known to behave and given the many inducements and benefits that there are to be had from making false allegations.
Furthermore, women are the masters of emotional manipulation, deceit and distortion. These are the weapons that they use from the day that they are born. And a well-known tactic of theirs is to manipulate other men (or the authorities in this case) into using some form of aggression against their ‘enemies’ on their behalf.
And so when you consider the fact that most allegations of rape are made not against strangers but arise between those who are having serious relationship problems it is inconceivable that false and/or exaggerated allegations of rape are not made in great numbers.
It is also worthwhile noting that any researcher who dared to claim that his work showed that rape allegations were 70, 80 or 90% false would probably find himself in serious trouble, he would not go far in his career, and his work would almost certainly remain unpublished.
In conclusion, my belief is that the 40-50% false allegation figure is a gross underestimate because …
1. Researchers only count as ‘false’ those allegations where the evidence that they are false is very strong.
2. The vast majority of rape cases are excluded from the ‘false-allegation research’ because they are ‘gray’. And yet it is in these gray cases where most false allegations are likely to be made.
3. The definition of rape has been fudged to a ludicrous degree. (Indeed, with such fudging, most men can probably be said to have ‘raped’ at some time in their lives.)
4. Millions of women are emotionally unstable and are also prone to making false allegations in all sorts of areas – including rape. It seems to be part of their nature.
5. Millions of women have a great deal to gain by making false allegations.
6. Emotional manipulation and deceit are tools that women are highly adept at using – particularly when it comes to getting other people – the authorities – and particularly men – to take on their enemies.
7. Most accusations of rape occur in situations where intimates are having serious relationship problems.
8. The feminists and the abuse industry are notorious for their dishonest propaganda and their lies concerning matters to do with ‘abuse’, and their ability to intimidate academics, the judiciary, the authorities etc etc into supporting their claims means that the true number of false allegations are bound to be grossly underestimated – e.g. because too many professionals are genuinely too scared to look too closely into the matter of false allegations or to come forward with the truth about what they know.
Having said all this, if you have any good research references that counter my view on this topic I would be delighted to see them.
But I do not think that it is actually possible for such ‘good’ research to exist.
For example, even as things stand at the moment, the vast majority of rape allegations do not lead to convictions. How could an academic researcher therefore establish that they should have led to convictions? After all, the investigating prosecutors and the juries failed to come up with the appropriate goods!
What could an academic possibly discover in all these cases that the officials themselves failed to discover?
And, for example again, what notion of ‘rape’ would such an academic apply?
From what I have seen there is no way of realistically countering the claim that the ‘vast majority’ of rape allegations made to the police are false, but there is a great deal of evidence – much of it circumstantial, but, nevertheless, fairly strong and convincing – to support such a claim.
Well. That’s my opinion!
12:34 pm
Toysoldier, I…I’m speechless. At this point I can’t even argue with you any more. I am so, so very sorry that happened to you. I don’t even know you, but I wish you the best, and I hope you find the help and support that you need. Don’t let society tell you that you have to refer to your years of childhood abuse as “sex.” It’s not. Again, I am so sorry that you had to go through that.
12:36 pm
LeftSidePositive, what about those situations where consent is implied? If a man and woman are married, and they’re sleeping in bed, and at 2:30 AM the man wakes up and rolls over and starts touching his wife, and she responds in kind, and sex occurs without even a word spoken, has he (or she) committed rape?
12:42 pm
Couples develop a sort of shorthand…that is, they know each other well, and the risk is greatly reduced. The situation you described is certainly not rape, unless he has previously threatened her and made her feel like she didn’t have a right to say “no” if she didn’t want sex.
That is to say…2 people in a happy marriage who spontaneously have sex? Not rape.
Two people in an abusive marriage where one partner is afraid of what will happen if he/she refuses sex? That could be rape.
12:45 pm
Bullshit. You actually claim that PMS leads to false rape allegations? Your misogyny knows no bounds.
The Kanin study used a town where women were told they were required to take a polygraph test. Apart from this simply being a procedure designed to browbeat rape victims, polygraphy itseslf is simply voodoo science that is not admissible in a court of law:
“Polygraphy has little credibility among scientists.[21][22] Despite claims of 90-95% validity by polygraph advocates, critics maintain that rather than a “test”, the method amounts to an inherently unstandardizable interrogation technique whose accuracy cannot be established. A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test’s average accuracy at about 61%, a little better than chance.[23] Critics also argue that even given high estimates of the polygraph’s accuracy a significant number of subjects (e.g. 10% given a 90% accuracy) will appear to be lying, and would unfairly suffer the consequences of “failing” the polygraph. In the 1998 Supreme Court case, United States v. Scheffer, the majority stated that “There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable” and “Unlike other expert witnesses who testify about factual matters outside the jurors’ knowledge, such as the analysis of fingerprints, ballistics, or DNA found at a crime scene, a polygraph expert can supply the jury only with another opinion…”[24]” –Wikipedia
12:51 pm
Rob. I have neither the time nor the desire to respond to your full post which basically calls women crazy and uses a bunch of rape apologist babble to miss the point that most rapists never spend a day in jail, and the ones that do are only there because the crimes were so violent and there was so much physical evidence that they are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.
However I did want to make a point about something you brought up –
“Heh, first of all, it is pretty hard to estimate what goes unreported, wouldn’t you say? That is ideologically driven.”
It is actually not ideologically driven and there are indeed ways to estimate the numbers – Many research studies exist where the participants are asked “Have you ever been raped?” “Did you ever tell anyone out side of this study about it?” and “Have you ever reported it to the police?”
Many survivors find it a heck of a lot easier to talk about their experiences when it is anonymous (to the general public), and the ultimate goal is to help future possible victims of rape.
I myself have responded to two such research projects. Granted both were through the university I attended and I have no knowledge of wheether the study was fully published in a scientific journal. But these studies do exist, and that is where these numbers come from. They are just as valid as presidential gallup polls and behavioral research polls, and any other type of research that involves asking a random public various questions to determine statistics and trends.
12:56 pm
John, if you don’t ask and you’re right in your assessment of the situation, you’d be ok (BUT, doesn’t the very possibility that you might be taking advantage of someone BOTHER you in any way?!?!). However, if you persuade yourself that you’re soooooo sure you can “read the signs” or whatever, and you’re wrong, you’ve just bought yourself an exclusive stay at an iron-bar country club because you failed to do your due diligence.
Again, women are expected to modify so much of their behavior in an attempt to avoid getting raped. Why are men like you so resistant to just asking? Don’t you care about the other person’s well-being?
I don’t buy this claim that you’re just talking about married people in perfectly happy relationships. Earlier on you said it was ok to start having intercourse with a woman who “was still trying to decide if she liked it.” You have this fantasy world where every woman secretly wants the man, and that the men can always tell exactly what the women is thinking, and anyway once the man starts the woman will want him. This isn’t real life. Sorry.
1:16 pm
…miss the point that most rapists never spend a day in jail, — Wren
Surely you mean alleged rapists, don’t you?
If it were so clear cut they had broken the law, do you mean to tell me, honestly, that local police, state police, the FBI, District Attorneys, Grand Juries and Magistrates all conspired together down at the Patriarchy Clubhouse to hide the overwhelming evidence that would have convicted said alleged rapists of an extremely serious crime? And how do you know, without a proper trial, that the evidence all these other people involved allegedly covered up, because they don’t care about rape, would have been sufficient to say that those not convicted would have indeed, without doubt, been rapists rather than alleged rapists?
1:20 pm
I wrote a comment that seems to have been quarantined, despite the absence of a single link. I’ll try to rephrase it again here.
LeftSidePositive, it seems to me that what you’re advocating for amounts to a “Best Practice” that will prevent misunderstandings and also prevent unjust allegations. I appreciate the value of a best practice because such advice helps well-intentioned people avoid pitfalls in life, such as violence or injustice.
But if I had said the equivalent of a Best Practice to a woman, advising her to dress more modestly, to stay away from dangerous parts of town, or to avoid compromising situations, I would be vilified for “blaming the victim.” Sound advice and best practices, designed to PREVENT victimization before it can happen in the first place, are attacked as though they “justify” a rape or sexual assault.
Here, your strident demands that your Best Practice be elevated to a legal requirement, is bordering dangerously close on Blaming the Victim — that is, the victim of injustice — the alleged rapist who was unjustly accused, arrested, prosecuted, and socially vilified because he misread the signals before him, never having obtained explicit verbal consent. To me, years of incarceration (or even a destroyed reputation and loss of thousands of dollars in legal fees on his defense) are an injustice because they don’t fit the alleged crime. To me, intent matters.
1:21 pm
Rob, have you read how many rape kits end up in warehouses and never even get tested?
1:32 pm
But John, you’re still missing the point. How likely do you honestly think it is that someone could “misread” signals of non-consent? This idea of the rapist who honestly believed it was a consensual encounter…it’s a red herring. No one is so oblivious that they can’t read the signals of someone either dissociating entirely or actively trying to get away during a sex act. Such rapists don’t honestly believe they have consent…they just made a decision in the moment that they didn’t particularly care.
1:45 pm
Rob, have you read how many rape kits end up in warehouses and never even get tested? — LeftBrainDead
I wonder why!
Especially if, as per Kanin’s study, 45% of those who make allegations of rape, later outright recant and admit they made false allegations.
Good on the government, for once, for not bothering to waste any more money pursuing the case.
1:47 pm
Well Melissa, you’re acting as though rape allegations are universally accurate, but sometimes accusations are made specifically because of their incendiary nature. In the early 1980s, there was a study conducted by the U.S. Air Force in which they interviewed hundreds of women who had claimed that they were raped, and an alarming portion of these women — 27 percent — indicated that they had fabricated the allegations. Usually they didn’t just volunteer the fact that they had lied, but admitted it when they had been caught, having taken a lie detector test and failing it at certain points.
What was illuminating was the reasons that these women cited for fabricating their allegations. The various reasons (cited by the women themselves, not by “rape apologists”) included using a rape allegation to cover up an adulterous affair, or punishing a man who had consensual sex with the woman but rejected her subsequent advances.
Even if you don’t accept the findings of that study, it seems disingenuous to me to assume that every allegation is an accurate and truthful one. They’re not all accurate, and not all truthful. This is reflected by the fact that in the U.S., 85% of alleged rapes fail to result in a conviction (the lower percentage cited by RAINN notwithstanding).
“Cross-National Studies in Crime and Justice” (Sept. 2004)
Authors: David Farrington, Patrick Langan, Michael Tonry
Bureau of Justice Statistics (United States Federal Department of Justice)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cnscj.pdf
Jurisdictions surveyed were:
1. England (and Wales)
2. Scotland
3. United States
4. Australia
5. Canada
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
8. Switzerland
The authors of the above study chose the above countries because of the extensive amount of reliable crime data available in such countries at either the federal or provincial level.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
CONVICTION RATES FOR RAPE:
England/Wales:
Conviction rate: <3%
Source: p. 30, figure 4e
Scotland:
Conviction rate: 2%
Source: p. 226, figure 3e
USA:
Conviction rate: 15%
Source: p. 73, figure 5e
Australia:
Conviction rate: 7%
Source: p. 111, figure 5e
Canada:
Conviction rate: 13%
Source: p. 157, figure 3e
Netherlands:
Conviction rate: 5%
Source: p. 190, figure 3e
Sweden:
Conviction rate: <2%
Source: p. 259, appendix table 3
Switzerland:
Conviction rate: 3%
Source: p. 277, figure 4e
1:47 pm
Even taking Kanin’s statistics (which are way off, but for the purpose of argument)…that means that 55% of the untested rape kits are for valid, real rape cases. Do you really want to penalize real rape victims for the minority (and yes, even 45% is a minority) of accusers who aren’t telling the truth?
1:48 pm
No I will not call them alleged rapists. In the eyes of the law there is such a distinction, because they innocent until proven guilty. But the statisitics I quote come from men and women who report that sex was forced on them without their consent. That make the person they are reporting a rapist, no if’s and’s or but’s about it. So maybe in the eyes of the judicial system it is not politically correct to say that, but in the eyes of decent people all over the world, said person is a rapist. The “alleged” merely mean he/she has not been convicted yet, it doesn’t change what he/she did.
And if RAINN and other reputable sources report it as “rapists” NOT “allegeed rapists” are you really trying to argue that they are in the wrong and aren’t giving these poor accused men a fair shake? Are you really sitting there saying you know better than them?
1:50 pm
John, I fail to see what any of that has to do with your claim that it’s possible for someone to merely misread the signals and honestly believe they have consent when they don’t. My point was that such a situation very rarely, if ever, exists at all.
1:55 pm
Wren, if you click on my name it will send you to my blog and you can read about my knowledge and understanding of the justice system is.
As for the cases being brought before a jury, it is my understanding that the majority do not involve physical evidence. There have also been hundreds of convictions against priests, nuns, scout leaders and teachers for crimes committed decades ago based solely on the testimony of the victims. So it is inaccurate to claim that if no rape kit was taken justice will not be served.
That is what I mean by feminists over-blowing the situation. Are there problems with some legitimate cases going to trial? Yes. However, the reason the laws favor the accused is to protect innocent people from going to prison for crimes they did not commit, not to purposefully undermine rape victims.
LeftSidePositive, I mentioned my experiences solely to illustrate a point, not to garner disingenuous feminist pity. Considering one is speaking to a person who experienced the things we are discussing, one’s accusation of rape apologism is quite intriguing.
Regardless of that, you failed to address my point. The idea that women always explicitly state “Yes, have sex with me” seems unlikely. The reality appears to be that both sexes use non-verbal cues to signal sexual interest and both sexes tend to engage in sex acts without explicitly stating, “Yes, I want you to do…” Pretending this does not happen, that only men fail to ask for consent or that men intentionally misinterpret non-verbal cues is at best wishful thinking.
That said, I agree that if a person is not mature enough to ask for consent that person is not mature enough to have sex. The question is why is it not also true that if a person is not mature enough to give consent that person is not mature enough to have sex?
This also goes back to the initial point of this thread. Whether one likes the analogy or not, the fact is that some people will prey on others. It is not wholly preventable and therefore it is irresponsible not to teach people things they can use to protect themselves from potential attacks. The responsibility should not be solely on potential victims, but they do have some responsibility in maintaining their own safety. We cannot operate under the false assumption that all we need to do is address the causes of violence.
1:55 pm
Melissa, if she didn’t enjoy it and he did (a plausible scenario, to say the least) then she could think of it as rape while he wouldn’t.
2:00 pm
John, I fail to see what any of that has to do with your claim that it’s possible for someone to merely misread the signals and honestly believe they have consent when they don’t. My point was that such a situation very rarely, if ever, exists at all.
Actually, it probably is not rare: http://www.livescience.com/health/080320-clueless-guys.html
This may simply be the case of one group thinking the way their non-verbal communication is clearer than it actually is.
2:04 pm
No. If she didn’t consent to it but he did, she could (rightly) think of it as rape. Enjoyment of sex happens during and after, and is only an issue once consent has already been given. Consent and pleasure are not actually particularly related issues.
2:06 pm
If sex occurs and neither party…
* asked the other for permission
* expressed their denial of permission
…why then should responsibility for the encounter be placed squarely on the man’s shoulders? Shouldn’t the woman be prosecuted for rape, since sex occurred and she never obtained the man’s explicit permission?
2:07 pm
“This may simply be the case of one group thinking the way their non-verbal communication is clearer than it actually is.”
THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE TO ASK!!!
Why is this so hard?!
2:08 pm
Toysoldier…yes, you’re right, many men (and an equal number of women) have trouble telling the difference between normal friendliness and sexual interest. No one’s disputing that. But if a man or woman actively pursues a sexual encounter and can’t interpret signals like moving the other person’s hands away, or trying to escape, or lying limp and uninvolved…that’s totally different. It’s totally unrelated to the usual “I can’t tell if he’s just being nice or if he like-likes me” conundrum.
2:10 pm
John and Rob–lie detector tests ARE NOT SCIENTIFICALLY VALID!!!
All they do is measure how nervous you are at the time…they test heart rate, skin conductivity, etc.
Now, why would a woman who is recounting a harrowing and humiliating assault, who is being talked down to and disbelieved, dealing with a subtly or overtly hostile institutional response, possibly BE NERVOUS?!?!
2:11 pm
John, you’re either deliberately ignoring what’s been said many times in this thread, or you’re just not paying very much attention. No one has said (no, not even once) in this thread that the responsibility should be placed on the man’s shoulders. What we have said is that it is the sexually aggressive party (that is, the one who initiates sex) to be certain that the other person also wants to have sex, and then to respect that decision. This rule is 100% gender-neutral.
2:11 pm
LeftSidePositive: “THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE TO ASK!!!”
Translation #1: That’s why it’s in your interest to ask, lest you be unjustly accused
Translation #2: That’s why men, but not women, must ask, lest they be unjustly prosecuted and even incarcerated.
2:12 pm
*that was supposed to say “it is the responsibility of the sexually aggressive party
2:13 pm
Translation #3: That’s why it’s in your interest to ask, in order to avoid becoming a rapist.
2:13 pm
Well then, Melissa, who’s to say which party was the initiator of sex (i.e. “the aggressor,” as you so feministly called it)?
2:13 pm
No I will not call them alleged rapists. In the eyes of the law there is such a distinction, because they innocent until proven guilty. But the statisitics I quote come from men and women who report that sex was forced on them without their consent. That make the person they are reporting a rapist, no if’s and’s or but’s about it. So maybe in the eyes of the judicial system it is not politically correct to say that, but in the eyes of decent people all over the world, said person is a rapist. The “alleged” merely mean he/she has not been convicted yet, it doesn’t change what he/she did. – Wren
And thus, why it is so important to have open justice and to be able to face your accuser.
Can you actually hear yourself?
What’s next? Accuse someone of being a witch and proving they are one by seeing if they can be drowned?
Btw, I suspect that you are a liar about your desire to read rape fantasies at Literotica and have only gotten said information from your male co-workers.
First off, I am a male, and in all my years being one, I have yet to have another male hardly go beyond, if at all, admitting that he looks at porn… and, I have also never really heard men discussing – not even in a locker room, nor amongst best friends – their inclinations for extreme fetishes, such as rape fantasies. And certainly they wouldn’t discuss it so far as to even mention the internet porn-sites they frequent to indulge their fetish… and even so far as to repeat it enough times in the presence of a woman that she Freudian Slips the name of the porn-site to replace the actual genre of literature itself.
Secondly, if this is occuring in your workplace, and you being a feminist who is obviously so ideologically driven – especially about rape – I have a hard time believing that you, of all people, would keep your mouth shut and simply endure it. It is, after all, one of the very definitions of Sexual Harrasment in the Workplace. I would find it much more likely that if such a thing actually occured at your workplace, that you would be one the first people complaining to Human Resources or directly to your boss, threatening a substantial lawsuit.
Thirdly, there is not a man alive who has not heard of said Sexual Harrasment crapola, and who doesn’t realize outright that such behaviour could not only instantly cost him his job, but could further land him in quite a bit of legal hotwater and even further yet, plague his career and his ability to get hired at other establishments for decades to come.
It seems far more plausible that you read, or have read, Rape Fantasies at said porn site yourself.
Just saying.
But, I’ll let you get away with claiming you do it for research, if it embarasses you too much.
2:13 pm
Um, it’s usually pretty damn obvious who’s the initiator.
2:15 pm
LeftSidePositive: “John and Rob–lie detector tests ARE NOT SCIENTIFICALLY VALID!!!”
And an admission of a fabricated allegation is therefore itself fabricated?
2:16 pm
John, your “Best Practice” claim is ludicrous on its face.
A woman who wears what she wants, goes where she wants, speaks to whom she wants, etc. is making her own decisions about her OWN self and her OWN actions and her OWN body.
A man (or woman) who “misreads a situation” is using their own judgement and own opinions to determine use of SOMEONE ELSE’S BODY.
You own your OWN body and your OWN life, you don’t own SOMEONE ELSE.
A person who “misreads a sexual situation” (which, as Melissa has already astutely pointed out, is bullshit) has caused immense pain and suffering of another human being. He is not a victim–he is a PERPETRATOR. Perpetrators deserve to be blamed and brought to justice.
2:17 pm
Dude, Rob, you’ve gotta get over this “Freudian slip” thing. It’s not a Freudian slip when the person intentionally refers so a specific item. It would only be a Freudian slip if she hadn’t INTENDED to refer to the site by name.
And furthermore…(although I do believe you, Wren)…even if, hypothetically, she did enjoy rape fantasies…why would that matter or be remotely relevant? No one wants to actually be raped–it goes against the very definition of rape. If you want it, it’s not rape. So there’s no such thing as “desired” rape, and whether or not Wren has rape fantasies is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
2:21 pm
John, there is a difference between not enjoying it and completely withdrawing from it, cringing the entire time, or pushing the guy away. Any reasonable person would agree that just because sex sucked doesn’t mean anyone would think it was rape. The unfulfilling sex has nothing to do with consent, which is what rape always comes down to.
Toysoldier -”As for the cases being brought before a jury, it is my understanding that the majority do not involve physical evidence. There have also been hundreds of convictions against priests, nuns, scout leaders and teachers for crimes committed decades ago based solely on the testimony of the victims. So it is inaccurate to claim that if no rape kit was taken justice will not be served.”
I am not trying to be rude but your understanding is erroneous. Visit a couple of support forums and read the questions on who was able to get their case though the system. And I am talking rape cases – adult on adult, not child sex abuse or sodomy or incest since these types of cases are handled differently as it is automatically fact that a child cannot consent to sex, so the consent issue is never argued in court.
But looking at adult rape cases, 9/10 cases that do make it to trial fall into very specific categories:
- when there are several victims and they all lead back to the same rapist
- when there is indisputable physical evidence
- when the crime is burtal and violent – the bruises and violence show that consent was not given
And most of the cases that do make it to trial are ones involving rape by a stranger, because its a lot easier to prove you have no connection and thus no reason to have sex with a complete stranger verses an acquaintance or date.
I know several people, myself included, who were told by police to basically forget about it, since they were not going to do anything. Oh yeah they will do their token share of the work – ask the guy for his point of view, but unless he confesses, if there is no physical evidence, the case dies there.
2:22 pm
“And an admission of a fabricated allegation is therefore itself fabricated?”
Yes, in all likelihood. The women in these studies are being subjected to voodoo science which is falsely saying they’re lying, based on totally invalid methodology. They are faced by hostile investigators, who are saying to these victims over and over again that they’ve failed the lie detector test, which really only measures nervousness. Eventually these poor women are so browbeaten that they give up.
2:23 pm
Holy shit, people! John, Comrade Al, et al are MRA TROLLS! Stop engaging them! I’m so fucking sick of reading this awesome blog, scanning the comments in hope of ACTUAL DISCOURSE, only to find that it’s been taken over by assholes whose only purpose in coming here is to voice staunch disagreement with feminism in general, and the feminists who will argue with them.
I’m so disappointed.
Amanda – can I weigh in with a resounding YES to the question about moderating comments? I think the atmosphere would improve considerably.
2:23 pm
Melissa,
You’ve got to get some reading comprehension, girl.
She twice in a row, referred to the genre of erotica as the porn site Literotica, which does indeed have a collection of rape stories, many written by women.
In fact, even directly after pointing out her first Freudian Slip and correcting her, the reply she gave included the second slip…
Hmmm.
2:24 pm
Women can misread a man’s interest (or wishfully think that it’s there) merely because sex occurred. Thereafter, she retroactively decides that she has been “used” because he shows no subsequent interest in her. This provides her with all the reason she needs to claim that her prior (entirely consensual) sexual encounter with him is now rape. Like I pointed out earlier, who’s to say what the “aggressive party” was, and more importantly, who’s to say that consent was expressed or denied? If it were truly rape (as I define rape, that is, forcible rape) then there would be scarring and other physical evidence. But if it was just a case of misinterpreted signals on his OR HER part (or outright fabrication of a rape allegation on HER part), no one can really say. Except ideologues who have prejudged every defendant as guilty, which you seem to be.
2:27 pm
Jenn wrote:
Translation: Actual discourse agrees with feminist politics. Any diversion from the feminist interpretation is of no value, and is not even discourse.
2:29 pm
John and Toysoldier suggest that it’s likely that a man might be unaware that a woman he’s having sex with is unconsenting. Melissa and others find that preposterous. But let’s take a step back.
If a sex act is enthusiastic and mutual, if the people involved are actively engaged with each other, then yes, it’s hard to imagine someone thinking he has consent when he doesn’t. In that situation, the expression of consent may be verbal or non-verbal, but it’s going to be emphatic and ongoing. If one person stops participating, it’s going to be obvious to the other that something’s gone awry.
If, on the other hand, a sex act is one in which one partner is active and the other passive, in which one initiates each new activity and the other just goes along with it, then a lack of consent — or a withdrawal of consent — is going to be a lot easier to miss.
Does this mean that all sexual activity that involves one active partner and one passive partner is rape? No. Does it mean that all such sex is bad or immoral by definition? No, it doesn’t mean that either.
But it does mean that where there is no enthusiastic mutual participation and there is no clear and consistent effort on the part of the more active party to determine whether his (or her) advances are welcome, a person may wind up violating another person sexually without being aware of it.
That’s the crux of the issue here, and that’s, as Melissa says, “WHY YOU HAVE TO ASK!” Not because you might get falsely accused of rape, or (just) because you might get thrown in jail, but because nobody should be having sex with someone else without having done whatever they need to do to be 100% certain that their partner wants it to be happening.
Can we at least agree on that, John?
2:30 pm
John–rape has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone enjoyed the sex, how they were treated afterwards, or any of the other nonsense. If a man initiated and perpetuated the sex through his autonomous actions, then he had interest in the sex. Not interest in a relationship or any other red herrings you’re putting up.
Did both parties freely agree and want to engage in the sexual intercourse when it happened?
THAT is the point that you’re so bent on obscuring, and even if you personally never take a woman without her consent, you are very invested in preserving the possibility for men to rape, and you are very invested in protecting perpetrators from the consequences of their horrible and harmful actions.
2:30 pm
Rob, No, she specifically and intentionally referred to the site. That is not a Freudian slip. That’s just…talking.
John, you’re talking about two separate things. At first, you were talking about men who genuinely misread signals and honestly thought they had consent. Now you’re talking about women who make up rape accusations, even though consent genuinely did exist. Not the same thing. Not even close.
2:32 pm
Thank you for that, Melissa.
Rob, if you have never encountered such talk, good for you. Either you hang out with a more mindful group of people, or the people you hang out with are not comfortable enough with you to share what they are thinking. Either way I don’t really care.
I do take your allegations against my honesty seriously, though. I will not be slandered or reduced to some PMS- crazed feminist who obsesses about sex and porn. If you don’t like my opinions, you don’t have to agree. But can you at least keep the debate civil and not resort to second grade name calling and slandering? Can we discuss our differences on the issues as adults?
2:32 pm
Angus, I think that your points are valid. And I agree that it’s crucial to make sure that if you’re having sex with someone (whether or not you have the greater level of enthusiasm), that they’re not doing so against their will. That requires sensitivity to their needs, and an awareness of whether they’re enjoying the encounter.
2:34 pm
John, I really love how when a “male” name restates an argument that FOUR SEPARATE “FEMALE” NAMES HAVE BEEN MAKING FOR TWO FUCKING DAYS, suddenly it’s all, “Yes, of course I would never want to fuck anyone who didn’t want me to fuck them. What a valid and well-stated argument.”
Dick.
2:36 pm
No, K. You missed the last statement in my comment: “That requires sensitivity to their needs, and an awareness of WHETHER THEY’RE ENJOYING THE ENCOUNTER.“
2:38 pm
Ya don’t say? The exact same thing we’ve been saying for 281 posts? Wow.
Ok, I’ll stop being snarky. If you’re actually coming around, I’m thrilled.
2:40 pm
To clarify, if either party (put typically the woman) retroactively decides that they didn’t enjoy the consensual sex, the line can thereafter be blurred in their mind between consensual and non-consensual, despite the fact that there was mutual consent.
2:41 pm
“That requires sensitivity to their needs, and an awareness of WHETHER THEY’RE ENJOYING THE ENCOUNTER.“
And yet you’re so determined that whoever instigates the sexual encounter is absolutely under no circumstances to ask the other partner … why?
2:41 pm
I do take your allegations against my honesty seriously, though. I will not be slandered or reduced to some PMS- crazed feminist who obsesses about sex and porn. If you don’t like my opinions, you don’t have to agree. But can you at least keep the debate civil and not resort to second grade name calling and slandering? Can we discuss our differences on the issues as adults? — Wren
Do you mean, like, by not calling people who disagree with to be Rapists?
2:42 pm
No, Melissa, you’ve been saying that incarceration should be the answer for someone who was not fully aware of the other party’s degree of enjoyment.
2:42 pm
Jenn, I understand this discussion might not be your cup of tea, but the comments are at the bottom of the posts, and you may read the topics of your interest.
I know this discussion has been very long, but I for one have found it very valuable. John and Rob are providing a valuable public service in showing how people who start out claiming they’re reasonable people trying to see both sides about rape are very often sick bastards who have deep-seated sense of entitlement and hatred for women.
I applaud the persistence of Wren, K, Justine, Melissa, Disgusted Dude and others who have systematically shown the logical flaws in these misogynistic arguments and have brought these self-proclaimed “reasonable men” to make wild accusations, redefine laws, spin absurd fantasies, willfully trying to conflate consensual sex with rape, and ridicule women who disagree with them. It shows what is lurking beneath these facades, and what women are up against to be treated as full autonomous human beings.
I for one have found this discussion very educational about the attitudes and misinformation that perpetuate patterns of rape, and for learning about the personality disorders and delusions of rape apologists.
2:42 pm
John, no, that line cannot be blurred after the fact. Consent happens before and during the sexual act. Nothing that happens after can affect it. And women are smart enough to know that.
2:43 pm
“the line can thereafter be blurred in their mind between consensual and non-consensual, despite the fact that there was mutual consent.”
I know a way to avoid that. A secret way. A way so secret not even the CIA knows about. But it would be a way to avoid forever being thrown in jail because of a rape accusation. (That’s the reason it’s so secret.)
Ask.
2:44 pm
“No, Melissa, you’ve been saying that incarceration should be the answer for someone who was not fully aware of the other party’s degree of enjoyment.”
No, I never said that. Read the thread. I never once said that.
What I said is that incarceration should be the answer for someone WHO RAPES.
2:46 pm
Thanks for that response, John. But given that we agree that it’s “crucial” for people engaged in sexual activity to “make sure” that they have their partner’s active consent, I don’t see what your problem is with describing this scenario as a “moral crime”:
Having sex “when you didn’t want to because [someone] threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down) to make you?
That’s not describing after-the-fact regrets, or heat-of-the-moment ambivalence. It’s “having sex when you didn’t want to” because someone “threatened or used … physical force.”
You asked of such a perpetrator, “how is he to know that he’s acting contrary to her wishes?”
He’ll know if he recognizes that it’s his responsibility to know, and acts accordingly. That’s how he’ll know.
2:46 pm
Jenn, I am sorry you think it is not cool that “the assholes …and the feminists who will argue with them.” are having such a lengthy debate on this matter. I did not come to this page to argue assholes, I can here to stick up for what was right and make sure that there were comments to dispute what the assholes were saying. I linked here from a rape support forum were some members were concerned by the number of rape apologists who commented and they thought that something should be done to stand up for survivors.
That is why I am here arguing with people who are obviously trolls such as Rob. Do I really think he believes the crap he is spewing? well I hope he doesn’t. But I won’t have a recent rape survivor stumble upon this post and be sucked into the thinking of men like Rob and John. People need to speak up for what is right and that is what several of us “feminists” are trying to do. BTW, just because you stick up for rape and sexual abuse survivors doesn’t automatically make you a feminist.
2:48 pm
LeftSidePositive, oh spare me! Spare me the ad hominem sanctimony, Mister mind reader! It is you who have systematically ignored evidence. You have conflated your subjective political views with good intentions, and political views with which you disagree with evil intentions. Your oversized ego is now in the stratosphere. Come back down to earth. People can have legitimate disagreements, such as freedom vs. security (which this whole discussion is essentially about) and it does not therefore have to reflect poorly on the motives or character of the speakers.
I can’t believe that someone with your sense of entitlement and narcissism can actually latch on to the cause of rape victims, and act as though you have empathy for human beings when you can simultaneously dismiss the gross injustice of a person being unjustly incarcerated for a bogus or dubious rape allegation. Your stridency is sickening.
2:48 pm
“No, K. You missed the last statement in my comment: “That requires sensitivity to their needs, and an awareness of WHETHER THEY’RE ENJOYING THE ENCOUNTER.“”
You see everyone, John lives in this sick fantasy world where men can get away with rape by being soooo manly that the women decide midway through being violated that they just loooooove being taken by this strong manly penis that has forced its way inside them.
John doesn’t understand (or refuses to understand) that consent happens BEFORE sex* and men don’t have the right to “audition” inside a woman’s vagina.
2:51 pm
John, I’m not sure which discussion you’ve been reading, but the one I read was about consent, implied consent, and the difference between enthusiastic mutually enjoyable sex and rape.
Oh yeah, and the difference between “Traditional Rape” and lying little whores who lodge false rape accusations against virile, upstanding and completely blameless men who will fuck them when trashed but are not interested in marriage. Or something like that.
2:51 pm
John: “People can have legitimate disagreements, such as freedom vs. security (which this whole discussion is essentially about)”
Really? I thought we were discussing rape which we would mean we are discussing CONSENT VS NO CONSENT.
2:55 pm
John, what is the sense of entitlement and narcissism of which you speak?
That I think human beings get to decide who can have sex with them?
That people are criminally liable if they use another person’s body without consent?
That people seeking help from law enforcement should not be subjected to scientifically invalid superstitions to determine their credibility?
This isn’t “entitlement” or “narcissism.” This is speaking up for the most basic of human rights.
2:56 pm
LeftSidePositive, what you don’t seem to understand is that criminal prosecution ALWAYS happens after the fact. That’s what I’m concerned about for the purposes of this discussion: the consequences of the criminal complaint. If we have injustice written into our penal codes and stridency carved into our cultural values, injustice and false allegations most certainly will result. It’s not about entitlement to rape; I can’t believe you would accuse me of such a thing. Nowhere have I ever said that. Point it out to me; the burden is on you to do so, because you have made the assertion.
Our laws on rape are in my opinion reminiscent of a police state. I do feel entitled to my freedom from incarceration if in fact I have not knowingly violated the integrity of another person. And Jenn, I DO FEEL ENTITLED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.
2:58 pm
“I do feel entitled to my freedom from incarceration if in fact I have not knowingly violated the integrity of another person.”
You don’t get access to another person by default. You don’t get to “assume” you get to use another person’s body. If you are having sex with someone without consent, you know you are violating the integrity of another person, by definition.
2:59 pm
Can I point out John’s blatant side-stepping of Angus’ question by picking a fight with an ad hominem attack against LSP? Backed you into a corner, did we, John?
(And before you flame me John, I fully admit that I adhommed you with the word “dick.” You are a dick, and I’m not sorry.)
3:02 pm
LeftSidePositive wrote (#299):
This logic would put a married man in jail for leaning over in bed at 2:30 in the morning and touching his wife, leading to consensual sex, without explicit permission ever having been verbally expressed.
It is this level of stridency and capricious application of the State’s power that I object to. You’re making my case for me.
3:03 pm
John:
I do feel entitled to my freedom from incarceration if in fact I have not knowingly violated the integrity of another person.
No you don’t. Or if you do, you’ve got a very weird sense of how law works.
If you drive around without your headlights on at night, and run someone over as a result, you’re criminally liable whether you “knowingly violated the integrity of another person” or not. If you have sex with someone who is passed out drunk, you’re a rapist even if you thought she was play-acting. This is not an arcane legal concept.
Failing to recognize that you’re violating the law is not a legal defense. Not in rape, not in any other category of crime. Not now, not ever.
3:04 pm
Angus: “Failing to recognize that you’re violating the law is not a legal defense.”
Not yet.
3:05 pm
Most.Terrifying.Post.Ever.
3:06 pm
I thought we already argued the married couple scenario, John.
Melissa January 15th, 2010 12:42 pm #238
“Couples develop a sort of shorthand…that is, they know each other well, and the risk is greatly reduced. The situation you described is certainly not rape, unless he has previously threatened her and made her feel like she didn’t have a right to say “no” if she didn’t want sex.
That is to say…2 people in a happy marriage who spontaneously have sex? Not rape.
Two people in an abusive marriage where one partner is afraid of what will happen if he/she refuses sex? That could be rape.”
I think Melissa described that scenario pretty well.
3:07 pm
K: “Most.Terrifying.Post.Ever.”
With 85% of rape allegations being rejected by juries or prosecutors themselves, indicating the bogus nature of a significant portion of the complaints, I would tend to agree with you. We need a change in the law in this country. Thank goodness for democracy.
3:08 pm
“This logic would put a married man in jail for leaning over in bed at 2:30 in the morning and touching his wife, leading to consensual sex, without explicit permission ever having been verbally expressed.”
How do you know the sex is consensual if explicit permission is not given?
Not all marriages are perfectly happy. Not all husbands are perfectly sensitive to their wives’ needs. Marrying someone does not give them perpetual consent. If the wife presses charges against her husband for having sex with her without asking (like, she wasn’t even fully AWAKE yet by the time he penetrated her!), then clearly it wasn’t consensual. It’s actually fairly common for domestic abuse survivors to recount stories where they wake up to have their husbands already inside them. That’s a very manipulative and degrading tactic that abusers take advantage of.
3:09 pm
Wren: “I thought we already argued the married couple scenario, John… That is to say…2 people in a happy marriage who spontaneously have sex? Not rape.”
Why then are you addressing your comment to me? It is LeftSidePositive who seems to have forgotten that memorable part of the thread:
3:10 pm
LeftSidePositive: “Not all marriages are perfectly happy. Not all husbands are perfectly sensitive to their wives’ needs.”
Therefore it’s rape when he turns over to her in the middle of the night, but not when she does the same?
You’re a wacko nutjob!
3:11 pm
“Why then are you addressing your comment to me? It is LeftSidePositive who seems to have forgotten that memorable part of the thread:”
No. No one ever said married couples get to “assume.” Melissa showed very clearly that genuine consent between people in stable sexual relationships is very clear, and they’re not “assuming” anything–they are communicating their consent to each other and have clearly established trust and understanding. Melissa also showed that a married man “assuming” can be the hallmark of an abusive relationship.
3:14 pm
“Therefore it’s rape when he turns over to her in the middle of the night, but not when she does the same?”
If a wife initiates and/or continues a sex act on her husband without his consent, then yes, of course she’s guilty of rape. Why is that so difficult to understand?!
The women on this thread have said over and over again that women DO have the responsibility to get consent.
3:14 pm
But you’re conflating two unrelated situations.
You can’t say…hm…a married couple has consensual sex…and that’s not rape…but LeftSidePositive says that assuming you have automatic access to someone else’s body can lead to rape! So…ha! (As if that has any sort of internal coherence at all…)
3:18 pm
LeftSidePositive, you seem to want to make it illegal for people to engage in sexual activity unless verbal permission is explicitly expressed. The default is for all sex to be illegal, and only when verbal expression is exchanged is it legal, unless of course either party subsequently forgets about it or lies, claiming that no such verbal exchange occurred. And who is to say otherwise, unless the whole encounter was videotaped? So in your scenario, we would all be under the watchful eye of video cameras, even during sex, in order to prove whether consent was expressed. That is Big Brother stepping into the bedroom. The alternative is even worse; without even Big Brother in the room, guilt is merely assumed by the veracity of the unprovable accusation alone. The reality is still worse; most defendants will be men, despite the fact that if consent was not verbally expressed, logically that indicts the woman too.
3:20 pm
LeftSidePositive: “If a wife initiates and/or continues a sex act on her husband without his consent, then yes, of course she’s guilty of rape. Why is that so difficult to understand?!”
This is what irritates me about feminists. I am accused of not understanding because I disagree.
3:24 pm
Okay, now you’re just making shit up for the hell of it John. Sex without consent is illegal, and it should behoove EVERY adult who initiates a sex act to be ABSOLUTELY SURE of their partner’s willing consent. Which IS NOT difficult to ascertain.
No one is installing cameras in your bedroom and taping you having sex, unless you are doing yourself (in which case it is sometimes illegal and certainly immoral if you don’t inform your partner(s) of that fact.)
No one is assuming guilt before it is proven in a court of law, and as many, many people have repeatedly stated, the rate of conviction in rape cases is upsettingly low. (or high, if you are John Dias.)
The reality is that most rape defendants ARE men, because they did not think that their partners’ consent was important or even necessary. But, again as has been pointed out, women can, and do, rape.
Finally, are you saying that you disagree that a wife can rape a husband, or that you disagree that when a husband has non-consensual sex with his wife, it is rape, despite their marriage vows?
3:25 pm
John, you JUST said: “Therefore it’s rape when he turns over to her in the middle of the night, but not when she does the same?”
To which LSP replied that it goes equally both ways. Something that we’ve all said multiple times already. So yes, this is a failure of understanding on your part.
Unless what you’re disagreeing with is that the responsibility to get consent applies to both genders, and genuinely believe that it’s the responsibility of men to get consent, but if a woman initiates sex, she doesn’t have to do the same. And somehow I doubt that’s what you meant.
3:32 pm
Guess what everyone! I’ve found out who John Dias really is!!
He’s Michael Palin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
Three hundred posts boils down to this:
Sex is a parrot. Rape is a dead parrot. Who else in the world would keep saying a dead parrot is still alive?
3:36 pm
Let me clarify once and for all:
The Alleged Victim Should Bear Responsibility For Expressing Non-Consent, not the other way around.
That is my subjective opinion, my perspective, and it’s my right to believe it. And I will pursue this objective politically, through advocacy, lobbying, donating money, organizing others, soliciting donations, and any other peaceful means at my disposal. That’s what freedom is all about, and thank goodness it doesn’t depend on convincing the lunatic feminist fringe, as evidenced by many commenters in this very thread. Rather, it depends on reasonable people placing a value on their interactions with each other and with the State, showing empathy not just for victims of crime, victims of almost-crime, and potential victims — but also showing regard for the rights of the accused, for justice, and for the avoidance of heavy-handedness in prosecution and legislation.
Look, people, it’s been non-fun refuting you, but I’m going to take a break from commenting for a while. No doubt that in my absence from this thread, you will continue to attack me directly because arguing on the merits is more challenging, but don’t take my silence or absence as validation for your uncontested statements. I may be gone from this thread permanently, or maybe only for an hour. Certainly I won’t be gone from this blog, but in any case, I’m weary of the back and forth in this discussion, and I prefer to concentrate on more productive endeavors, such as having discourse with people who I consider to be more reasonable (even if they disagree with me).
Until next time.
3:39 pm
“The Alleged Victim Should Bear Responsibility For Expressing Non-Consent”
VICTIM-BLAMING, here we go!!!
And again, I still maintain that this logic would allow someone to start beating up or shooting total strangers, rifling through their purses or pockets until they see you, etc., etc.
3:39 pm
LeftSidePositive, Are you really resorting to name calling? That’s as pathetic as your argument.
3:39 pm
Um…that’s nice…except for the fact that we debunked that one a long time ago.
Many times the victim is quite literally incapable of expressing non-consent (for example, if she is unconscious, or too scared to speak). Or afraid for her life, physical health, or finances if she does. So if that’s your whole argument then you should’ve been done here a long time ago. It doesn’t hold water.
3:41 pm
“The Alleged Victim Should Bear Responsibility For Expressing Non-Consent”
‘VICTIM-BLAMING, here we go!!!
And again, I still maintain that this logic would allow someone to start beating up or shooting total strangers, rifling through their purses or pockets until they see you, etc., etc.’”
Hm. Upon three separate readings, I fail to see the part where she calls anyone a name. Care to point it out for me?
3:43 pm
OldTimer, No–I’m showing that John Dias’s (and Rob’s) denials are patently ridiculous. I’m highlighting a classic illustration of willful ignorance.
What about my argument is pathetic? What is wrong with “Only have sex with people who agree to have sex with you”?
3:43 pm
who would’ve thought rape could be such a sensitive issue?
3:44 pm
Actually John, I had a lot of fun discussing this. I think some excellent points were made, and I’d like to think we learned something. Farewell, and good luck with your activism.
3:48 pm
LeftSidePositive, Earlier you defined rape vs. sexual assault as needing to have bare genitals present.
So if I am a man and my genitals are exposed and I bite or spit on someone, is it rape?
What if I did the same with my genitals covered?
3:50 pm
… OldTimer, if you need legal advice, I recommend you talk to a lawyer. In the “scenario” you describe, I’m pretty sure you’ve got a good chance of getting off by reason of mental disease or defect.
3:53 pm
I’m honestly confused, John. It’s “crucial” to “make sure” that your sexual partners are enjoying themselves, but there’s no need to check whether you have their consent?
I don’t get it.
3:55 pm
I like how the defenders of the “lets blame women for being raped” brigade are all male. Charming.
3:56 pm
OldTimer, I said bare genitals were “contacted” or “used.” I was clearly referring to forced anal sex, forced oral sex, and forced penetration by inanimate objects, all of which are terrible acts of sexual violence. I clearly distinguished those from other forms of sexual assault.
Here is what I said (with emphasis):
“If I were to write the law, I would say that anything that involved the unwanted contact or use of at least one party’s bare genitals, would constitute “rape,” but from a legal standpoint if some of those are termed “forced sodomy,” “unlawful penetration,” etc. I don’t mind as long as the prison sentences are comparably long and consistently meted out.
Unwanted touching, groping, humping, etc. are all important forms of sexual violence and should be prosecuted and punished. Not with as long prison sentences as rape, but it does need to be taken very seriously. Furthermore, I don’t think anyone here is trying to conflate groping with rape…it’s just a strawman that you’ve put up. We ARE saying that physical violence does not actually need to take place for intercourse to be rape.”
4:00 pm
Oldtimer,
When I was 15 a man flashed his dick at me and asked if I had seen it before. I said “EW NO” and before I could run away, he grabbed my ass. I cried all the way to the bus stop (John Dias would say that it is my fault for walking to the bus stop at 6:30 AM in a safe suburb to go to school). I told a police officer as soon as I got to school and they had cop cars patrolling the bus stop for 3 months. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS SEXUAL ASSAULT.
4:47 pm
I’m a woman, and how can I give consent if I don’t know what I’m consenting to? I need a tip test first.
7:01 pm
May I also point out that I’m extremely skeptical of John Dias when he claims that all someone has to do is say “No”? And when he claims he is capable of making an honest assessment of someone’s state of mind and consent?
Over the last two days, he has shows the lengths he will go to ignore women who say “no.” No, John, it isn’t easy to say “no” when someone is unexpectedly on top of you. No, John, you can’t just assume that someone who is “just passively sitting there” is giving you consent. No, John, asking for consent is not a “shrill little rule.” No, John, you can’t have sex with someone who is “still trying to decide if they enjoy it.” No, John, the law says you have to get consent. No, John, lie detector tests are not scientifically valid. No, John, marriage does not automatically mean consent.
Throughout all of this, he still has his own “honest misreading of the situation.” He still thinks he knows best and what is right, no matter how many times the women here say no to him.
Is anyone else worried that he would have the same kind of “honest” difference of opinion if a woman says, “No, John, I don’t want to have sex with you”?
7:20 pm
It just struck me: in his pompous farewell, John Dias said:
“but don’t take my silence or absence as validation for your uncontested statements.”
BUT HE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A WOMAN’S SILENCE AS VALIDATION TO HAVE SEX WITH HER.
7:25 pm
I never consented to you speaking to me on this thread, LSP. I’d say by your logic, that makes me a victim of something.
7:34 pm
No, John–our society clearly recognizes the right of individuals to speak to each other, and to initiate and participate in conversation. Neither communication nor criticism are violation.
Now, I could not try to contact you by any other means, as that would be a violation of your privacy. BUT your blog posts placed on a publicly available forum are not immune from criticism.
8:18 pm
I see; so consent was implied, because of the compromising situation that I invited upon myself. Stop victim-blaming, you oppressor.
8:29 pm
It is not illegal to criticize a comment on a blog. It IS illegal to rape someone.
Blogs with comment sections are open forums to freely express opinions. Women’s bodies are not open vessels to freely have sex with.
It is beyond disgusting and insulting that you compare a verbal refutation of your comments to the horrific experiences of rape victims. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
11:16 pm
It is beyond disgusting and insulting that you compare a verbal refutation of your comments to the horrific experiences of rape victims. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. — LeftAsBrainDead
Lol! Yeah, like the horrific experience of the 30 Second Rapist.
Holy shit, do you think that Vagina is the Golden fucking Fleece or what!
———-
If I only had a V
I could be accusatory
And hide in anonymity
Despite my obvious perjury.
If I only had a V
I could live so happily
Causing untold agony
To the man who married me.
If I only had a V
I would be officially
protected by immunity
With no responsibility.
If I only had a V
I would dress most prettily
And all of the judiciary
Would judge my claims most favourably.
If I only had a V
I would use it expertly
To generate equality
That somehow always favours me.
If I only had a V
I could act appallingly
And cause my partner misery
No matter how atrociously.
If I only had a V
I would stroke it tenderly
Because quite unbelievably
It is my gold-filled treasury.
12:14 am
When I was 15 a man flashed his dick at me and asked if I had seen it before. I said “EW NO” and before I could run away, he grabbed my ass. I cried all the way to the bus stop (John Dias would say that it is my fault for walking to the bus stop at 6:30 AM in a safe suburb to go to school). I told a police officer as soon as I got to school and they had cop cars patrolling the bus stop for 3 months. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS SEXUAL ASSAULT. — Gabriella
So what?
Are you saying it was Rayyyyyype?
If you cried because as a 15 year old, you seen a penis, and your ass was grabbed… well, come on now. And yet you “strong, independent womyn,” claim to be equal to men? Seriously now. If I said I was 15, and a woman flashed me her tits, and grabbed my ass… so I cried all the way to the bus stop… and then later that day started hollering about “boy power”…
Perhaps this equality nonsense should be examined a little closer then.
This thread is about Rape. Why do you ridiculous feminists keep trying to conflate the much more minor Sexual Assault (or now, Indecent Exposure) with the much more serious Rape?
I like how the defenders of the “lets blame women for being raped” brigade are all male. Charming. — Gabriella
Nobody blamed women for being raped… at least not for being Traditionally Raped.
Stop making shit up.
Although, I’ll bet if we questioned someone like Wren, who wasn’t traditionally raped, a little more closely about her drunken experience with her room-mate, where he just came into her room, and the mere act of him lying on top of her prevented her from saying “no,” we would find a lot of things that would bring the entire situation into question a lot more than she lets on.
Like, where was she drinking? At a pub, or at home? Who was she with? Was she drinking with him? Who was drunker? Does she have any clear recollection of her behaviour – she was drunk after all. Does she even recall her own words before she retired to bed? If not, how can she recall the events after? She claims they were “just friends”, and yet, it is very difficult for men and women to maintain a platonic relationship (Harry met Sally), and I have known a plethora of “friends” who agreed to be room-mates while still knowing that there was more to it than merely that, and it is often a ruse to try and create a relationship… if so, which one wanted the relationship more?
How long did she live with him after this crime?
Was he dating another woman by the time they ended their cohabitation?
And further, did she charge him with rape?
If not, why not?
If yes, is her friend still in jail right now?
It’s doesn’t fly to just claim all sorts of shit, and shut down conversation “because I was raped, and it is ALL the same.”
Bullshit.
It is NOT all the same.
And, given the severity of the crime, and the subsequent punishment, the accused most certainly ought to be able to face his accuser in open court, under full protection of the constitution.
12:35 am
Rob–the 30 second rapist continued having sex with someone AFTER HE WAS TOLD TO STOP. That’s rape. You don’t have unlimited access to someone’s body, and stop means stop. No exceptions.
Gabriella said she experienced sexual assault. She never called it rape. No one here has EVER claimed that a groping or exposure incident was equal to rape, and yet you keep bringing up that strawman over and over.
None of those insulting questions you asked Wren have any bearing on the matter. None of those call ANYTHING into question. None of those would excuse what he did. She didn’t consent, so it was rape.
1:02 am
Rob–the 30 second rapist continued having sex with someone AFTER HE WAS TOLD TO STOP. That’s rape. You don’t have unlimited access to someone’s body, and stop means stop. No exceptions.
Yes, and what if I damn well intend to change things like that to a far, far, lesser crime, because I believe it is horseshit? Like, he should get a $30 fine perhaps.
Gabriella said she experienced sexual assault. She never called it rape. No one here has EVER claimed that a groping or exposure incident was equal to rape, and yet you keep bringing up that strawman over and over.
And yet, she tried to demonize men, and brought this story up on a thread about Rape… and tried to accuse John of things (he didn’t even say) about the crime of Rape – using this as her justification.
(Lol! Btw. When I was 15, I was working the summer on a construction crew, renovating an old building… a drunk woman in her mid-twenties walked by and DID flash her tits. She even yelled out something about whether I liked them and wanted to fuck her, or something. I didn’t cry. I guess I am just not equal in my emotions).
None of those insulting questions you asked Wren have any bearing on the matter. None of those call ANYTHING into question. None of those would excuse what he did. She didn’t consent, so it was rape.
It certainly would if she is accusing him of a friggin crime he could spend decades in prison for, and she was DRUNK and therefore cannot even clearly remember the events of the evening.
Btw. I have been FAR drunker than women I have been with for the evening (both drinking, her splitting a bottle of wine with a friend, me, downing well over 12 beers – first a six pack, and later, another dozen was provided by her), and yet, I distinctly remember she had Russian Hands and Roman Fingers. Especially towards the end of the evening.
What if we would have had sex?
Who is the onus upon?
What if I couldn’t question her in open court?
1:11 am
Rob,
If sex is going badly and the other person needs or wants you to stop and you do whatever you want to their body WHEN YOU KNOW IT’S NOT OK, you deserve to be locked up. For years. Sex involves trust–if you trust someone to share your body, and they take advantage of that trust, that is a horrible and vicious crime.
That woman who flashed you committed a crime.
Someone being drunk is not an excuse to rape them. No exceptions.
It doesn’t matter how drunk you are, if you have sex with someone who doesn’t want to, it’s rape. If you’re too drunk to give consent and someone else causes you to have sex, then they raped you.
1:39 am
If sex is going badly and the other person needs or wants you to stop and you do whatever you want to their body WHEN YOU KNOW IT’S NOT OK
Not if she doesn’t even say a word… like you are claiming can happen out of fear – as in, like Wren did.
Really, it was her room-mate!
Fear?
Too fearful to utter a word? Too fearful to push back?
Someone she lives with?
Her “friend?”
Someone being drunk is not an excuse to rape them. No exceptions.
It doesn’t matter how drunk you are, if you have sex with someone who doesn’t want to, it’s rape. If you’re too drunk to give consent and someone else causes you to have sex, then they raped you.
Only if you are a woman.
If being drunk for a woman removes her ability to give consent, because she is too incapacitated to know what she is doing… what about if the man is drunker than her?
And furthermore, why doesn’t it excuse you from a drunk driving charge?
And, what if I, as someone who has only had six beers, accepted a ride home from a woman who has had 8 glasses of wine, and she gets pulled over by the police? Who gets charged with impaired driving? And why?
Should a woman who has had 8 glasses of wine, not be considered legally liable if she gets behind the wheel of a car?
Please, explain the difference between being held liable for your actions for drunk driving – including vehicular manslaughter… but, not being able to know about the birds and the bees, nor when to, nor even being able to, say NO.
It doesn’t fly for drunk driving… how come for Rape?
2:09 am
Rob,
I have already stated–if person A has explicitly given consent for that encounter, they need to clearly withdraw consent (saying stop, pushing, screaming, etc.) so the other person knows the status has changed. That is NOT the same as someone who takes advantage of never having consent to begin with.
With your drunk driving analogy, It’s different because it is a crime just to get behind the wheel of a vehicle if you are intoxicated (whether or not anyone’s with you, whether or not you hit anything/anyone). The driver is by far the most at fault, but if you knowingly allow an intoxicated person to drive, you are putting other motorists & pedestrians & property in danger, so the passenger would be aiding and abetting a crime. This is because drunk driving is a crime without exception, and hurts society. Being drunk & flirting, kissing, being in a bedroom, etc. are not crimes. Someone who knows a person in a bedroom is drunk is not necessarily allowing a crime to take place (either party may subsequently perpetrate a crime, but the drunk-in-a-bedroom fact is not a crime). Someone who knows a drunk person is in the driver’s seat of a moving car IS allowing a crime to take place.
If a drunk driver hits a pedestrian, it doesn’t matter if the pedestrian’s BAC is 0.26 and the driver is 0.09, the person behind the wheel, who did the damage and caused the injury/fatality is guilty.
Similarly, in a sexual encounter, the person who is getting on top of the other, pulling off clothes, and making the sex happen is the responsible party.
This is really very simple–drunk or sober–you are responsible for what you DO, not what is done to you.
If a person is so drunk that they don’t know what is going on, they are in no position to give consent–consent is impossible, therefore to have sex with someone (male or female) in that condition is rape. If BOTH parties were so drunk as to not know what was going on, no sex would happen at all…you’d just have two passed out people doing nothing.
2:17 am
No, Rob, if someone you’re “having sex with” really doesn’t say a word…for example, they don’t say “hi” when they enter the room, they don’t say ANYTHING at all, it’s pretty safe to assume that that is non-consent, because the person is clearly not fully conscious. You honestly expect an unconscious person to say “no”?
And heck yeah, it makes sense that she would be too afraid to say anything! Especially since it was her roommate and friend. She would have spent her whole life listening to people like you, telling her that when she gets drunk, it’s her own fault if she gets raped. And being told that it’s her duty in life as a woman to be sexually pleasing to men. And then here comes someone she thought she trusted hurting her and violating her right to choose what she does with her own body…a lot of people would be so in shock that someone they thought they could trust was doing this…many of them would realize that they don’t actually know this person at all (and therefore don’t know how violent he/she could get), AND many people would just be afraid of making the person mad at them, afraid of making a scene, etc. Because women in this society are trained to put up with things like getting harassed and assaulted like it’s no big deal, and all of a sudden, if she fights back against someone who assaults her on the street (BTW, read the more recent posts on groping here, you’ll see what I mean), then all of a sudden she becomes a “crazy bitch.” Most women have internalized this message so much that they freeze up and become unable to do anything when they’re raped.
“If you’re too drunk to give consent and someone else causes you to have sex, then they raped you.
Only if you are a woman.”
Do you honestly believe that? I am so sorry. No matter how distasteful I find you, I don’t wish rape on you. From the things you’ve said here, you obviously have NO IDEA what it’s like for a rape victim. You couldn’t possibly imagine. Which, in turn, suggests to me that you’ve never been raped. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart: I hope you never do get raped. But if you hold onto this attitude, if you do someday get raped, you’ll have to joke it off and act like it doesn’t bother you. And I am so sorry for that.
“If being drunk for a woman removes her ability to give consent, because she is too incapacitated to know what she is doing… what about if the man is drunker than her?”
If she’s “too incapacitated to know what she is doing,” that’s a fancy way of saying she’s not fully conscious. If the man is drunker than her, then he’s not fully conscious either. And unconscious person can’t rape someone. So…irrelevant.
“And furthermore, why doesn’t it excuse you from a drunk driving charge?”
You’re close on this analogy. Except you’re using it to talk about the rape VICTIM, which doesn’t really work. Someone who gets drunk and commits a crime can’t be compared to someone who gets drunk and becomes the victim of a crime. Rape victims (and drunk driving victims, even if they’re drunk and in the middle of the street) did nothing wrong. Drunk drivers and rapists, however, actually have a lot in common. So actually, your analogy is kind of perfect. The idea that someone was drunk doesn’t excuse them from raping someone any more than it would excuse them from hitting someone with their car.
“And, what if I, as someone who has only had six beers, accepted a ride home from a woman who has had 8 glasses of wine, and she gets pulled over by the police? Who gets charged with impaired driving? And why?”
The driver/the rapist, of course.
“It doesn’t fly for drunk driving… how come for Rape?”
Because rape victims have done nothing wrong. They’ve committed no crime.
2:22 am
“I never consented to you speaking to me on this thread, LSP. I’d say by your logic, that makes me a victim of something.”
Reaching much? John, at least you seemed smart before, if misguided. I know it’s tough to keep standing up in the face of the actual facts, but you’re stretching your attempt at logic THIS far? Give up, man. Give us an argument that at least has the appearance of making sense, or give up. ‘Cause that’s just silly.
3:39 am
Well, for crying out loud. I just typed a long, detailed response, and it didn’t go through.
It will have to wait until tomorrow.
But, I’m not done with you yet.
I know you girls secretly got the hots for me.
3:53 am
Oh yeah, you figured us out. All of this whole “not-wanting-to-be-raped-again” shit is just a ruse, what we really want is a big strong man to dominate us. ‘Cause equal rights are for ugly lesbians, amirite?
Believe it or not, there are men in this world who aren’t like you. There are men who respect women for their intelligence, talent, and yes, even physical beauty without demanding that women be submissive and silent, always capitulating to the whims and desires of men.
4:05 am
Melissa,
How long has it been since you’ve gotten fucked really good?
I’ll bet a long time with that attitude of yours.
I mean, how many times has Joe Schmoe pulled out the Antioch Rules, and by the time he got to “The Treasury,” you both found it was dry?
And how many times have you looked at Disgusting Dude, throwing himself at your Entitlement Princess’s Slippers, and walked away… thinking he was a “nice guy,” but, who you really wanted was the thug over there, who was banging all your friends? (There’s a hint, Disgusting Dude – White Knights finish last!)
Melissa, tonight, perhaps you should let your fingers do the walking… think about the thug, if you would like… hell, even use my porn lite… and tomorrow, shave those pits, and turn that frown upside down…
4:13 am
Oh boy, you sure are clever. Feminists are hairy and just need a good lay, we’ve never heard THAT one before.
My personal life is very satisfactory, thankyouverymuch. Even with my craaaazy “attitude” that women are human beings who deserve to not get raped. Especially since I’m only interested in men who agree with that statement. And a lot of men agree with that statement.
Seriously, if you’ve realized that your argument is failing so badly that you need to resort to “feminists are hairy and mean and can’t get laid” in place of an actual contribution to the discussion…it might be time to admit defeat.
4:21 am
…it might be time to admit defeat.
Only in Femme-think is the one who harps the longest, without making any sense, and contradicting herself 3000 times in a row, the winner.
Welcome to your life if you marry one of these shrews, gentlemen.
Your wife will be the most responsible teenager in the house.
4:26 am
Believe it or not, there are men in this world who aren’t like you. There are men who respect women for their intelligence, talent, and yes, even physical beauty without demanding that women be submissive and silent, always capitulating to the whims and desires of men.
But, do you have sex with those guys?
I doubt it.
How about the guy who rayyyyyped you?
Was he one of those guys? A white knight who just tricked you?
Or was he a thug, who really, your momma (and certainly daddy, if you had one in the house) would have approved of?
4:26 am
Yep. We’re definitely the ones who “harp the longest, without making any sense, contradicting ourselves 3000 times in a row.”
Even though our argument has been based on consistent facts, whereas yours has veered into pornography, poetry, and has depended heavily on every logical fallacy in the book.
And again, the men who are with us are pretty damn happy to get stuck with “shrews” like us. Because they’re the ones who like intelligent women. They’re the ones who look for an equal partner instead of just someone to dominate. And the more I talk to you, the more grateful I become for men like that.
4:32 am
Are you telling me you actually have a steady boyfriend right now?
That’s great!
How long have you been together?
4:32 am
My personal life is none of your fucking business.
But in this case, I just can’t resist. Yes, I have sex with intelligent, respectful men who are interested in more than just dominating me. And the guy who raped me was neither a white knight nor a thug. Not everyone is an extreme.
4:33 am
Men?
Not man?
4:35 am
Oh yeah, I must be a crazy slut for sleeping with more than one person in my life. Tell me, have you slept with more than one woman in yours?
4:44 am
No, I’ve slept with many.
But currently, I am only sleeping with a woman.
She liked my porn-lite story, btw.
But told me she would prefer the word “copulate” to “fuck.”
Lol!
I told her no dice, so we aren’t gonna play that game… entirely. But, I’ve got others up my sleeve that are better.
And she thinks you’re all nuts.
My personal life is none of your fucking business.
And yet, you fly around the internet, throwing personal business like an un-provable claim of rape, trying to shut down any attempts about discussions of the Rape Industry, by weeping profusely about it to thousands of strangers.
Your personal business is hanging out on the clothes line in the front lawn, lady. Don’t get mad that the world knows what your panties look like. You were the one who hung them there. No don’t get all weepy because people were so rude to look at them when they walk down the street.
4:50 am
I’ll bet you though, since you said “men,” that currently… it’s the fingers that are doing the walking.
Have you heard of the site Literotica?
Lots of women like that place.
4:52 am
Actually, I never accused you of rape. This has been emphasized to you several times, but for some reason you still keep bringing it up…
Do I sound “weepy” to you?
Furthermore, I don’t care what your girlfriend likes. It’s her prerogative. I hope you two are very happy together. Her taste is, however, not universal. It’s personal.
4:58 am
Actually, I never accused you of rape. This has been emphasized to you several times, but for some reason you still keep bringing it up…
I never did say that.
I said that Wren and Leftard did – 3 times.
You said, that, that “we never” blah, blah, blah.
Although, I think I have accused you, quite rightfully, of having horrendous reading comprehension, at least three or four times now. And further, I will bring it up again… because, wtf, lunatic, why did you bring this up now, and not 100 comments earlier when it was relevant?
If you can’t even remember the shit you wrote on this thread, which anyone can easily verify – including you… why should anyone believe your memories of this alleged rape of yours?
5:01 am
Go to bed, Melissa.
Girls like you need their 12hrs sleep, or you get unreasonably cranky the next day.
Night, night.
—
Leftie,
I will respond to your post tomorrow.
5:08 am
Yes. And interestingly enough, you bring up accusations against my reading comprehension exactly at the times when yours is worst. You seem to think it’s a valid argument tactic to either misread what your opponent has said or intentionally construct a strawman argument, and then impugn your opponent’s reading comprehension…as if that would fool anybody. So I’m grateful for those times you’ve made such ridiculous and baseless accusations…you’re making my argument for me. Thanks.
I brought this up now in response to your post…hmmm…two entire posts upthread. Boy am I slow on the draw…
And this isn’t terribly relevant, but I’m simply too tempted to point out that it’s such a typical American USA-centric viewpoint to assume that it’s night everywhere in the world just because it’s night where you live. It’s not. It’s 11 AM here. But goodnight.
5:15 am
Um, idiot, the italics are, actually… wait for it…
Your Words!!!
You could check the post directly above it to verify.
Again, really, should anyone in their right mind believe your story of rape, when you are this fucking dense?
Not only do you have zero reading comprehension, but your memory is not even reliable for… exactly 16 minutes!
And gee, rape shield laws should protect people like you from facing their accuser, eh?
You just can’t make this shit up!
5:24 am
Again, you impugn my reading comprehension, when it’s clearly yours that needs some work.
First: you say that I have made unfounded accusations of rape with the following:
“‘My personal life is none of your fucking business.’
And yet, you fly around the internet, throwing personal business like an un-provable claim of rape”
Second: I say that I have never made that claim.
Third: You say “why did you bring this up now, and not 100 comments earlier when it was relevant?” (when the offending post was, in fact, immediately preceding)
Fourth: I point out that it was relevant at the moment, and that your “100 posts earlier” claim is a ridiculous exaggeration, when the real number was actually two, not one hundred.
Fifth: You call me dense and claim there’s something wrong with MY reading comprehension.
Again, thanks. Anyone who reads this will know that your entire argument is undermined by your complete inability (or perhaps your refusal) to give heed to the rules of logic.
5:28 am
Heh, forgot a tag.
But seriously, the two women that have been trying to pull all kinds of sympathy on this thread for their alleged rapes, have both been illustrated to have quite seriously large flaws.
Wren’s story about how she knows about Literotica is seriously in question – and quite likely fabricated, not to mention the circumstances surrounding her room-mate/friend/rapist, who she “feared” so greatly, and then hummed and hawed about for over a year before deciding it was rape.
The other lunatic can’t keep a straight thought in her head for even SIXTEEN MINUTES!
And yet, women would NEVER lie about rape!
Why would they?
And certainly, they ought never face their accuser, even though he could spend DECADES in prison!
And of course, white knighting manginas will hop around doing fucking backflips to make sure that NO-ONE is allowed to question these clowns.
Now, certainly, even the ladies on the “rape survivors forum” that is supposedly following this thread – apparently where Wren came from… are you ladies serious? Do you seriously not see something wrong with this picture?
If not… good God! Bring out the Chaperones!
If nothing else, to protect men from you women!
5:31 am
“The other lunatic can’t keep a straight thought in her head for even SIXTEEN MINUTES!”
I’d like to invite you to read the post immediately preceding yours, for a step-by-step refutation of that accusation.
5:42 am
I seriously don’t know anymore what you’re talking about, Rob.
The topic is the following question: Do you think that sex without consent is rape?
Your postings about Wren’s and Gabriella’s experiences are quite disgusting and in Wren’s case I can’t comprehend how you dare to diminish a survivor’s experience like you did earlier. (But you’ve got the answer, why rape is such an underreported crime right there.)
And now I just want to thank Melissa, Wren, LeftSidePositive and Justine for putting up with this for so long. Following John Dias’ and Rob’s argument was really upsetting for me. So, thank you for standing up to them.
5:48 am
Look,
Obviously, your are retarded or something.
I.
Will.
Spell.
This.
Out.
Slowly.
In Comment #362, WRITTEN BY MELISSA
Actually, I never accused you of rape. This has been emphasized to you several times, but for some reason you still keep bringing it up…
——–
.
.
Got that part?
Then, in the VERY next comment, that would be Comment #363 – and this is written by ME, Rob!
(Please note, I start off by QUOTING YOUR OWN WORDS – in italics there, in italics and bold here – got that? The rest of the italics are MY words – unbolded – Go verify, moron, just scroooooolllllll up a little)
Actually, I never accused you of rape. This has been emphasized to you several times, but for some reason you still keep bringing it up…
I never did say that.
I said that Wren and Leftard did – 3 times.
You said, that, that “we never” blah, blah, blah.
———————-
AND THEN!
TWO POSTS LATER – OR 16 MINUTES LATER!
In post 365 – are you still fucking with me?
YOU draw attention to the words I italicized! Which are YOUR WORDS! And say that YOUR WORDS, are actually mine! After you have only written them yourself 16 minutes earlier!
I mean CHRIST!
——
Now… scrooooollllll down, to YOUR comment #367…
Remember, this is YOUR comment now, not mine!
First: you say that I have made unfounded accusations of rape with the following:
“‘My personal life is none of your fucking business.’
And yet, you fly around the internet, throwing personal business like an un-provable claim of rape”
You, yourself, nitwit, have claimed to be raped!
Remember?
Or… obviously not, which was my point!
Fuck are you stupid.
5:55 am
Ok, let’s look back at that post #365 that you’ve brought up. What did I say in it?
“I brought this up now in response to your post…hmmm…two entire posts upthread. Boy am I slow on the draw…”
In response to your POST. Not in response to “the italicized portion of your post.” There is absolutely no mention in that post of me claiming that my words were yours. All I said were those two sentences. “I brought this up now in response to your post…hmmm…two entire posts upthread. Boy am I slow on the draw. Again, and you’re claiming that MY reading comprehension is the problem?
Look, dude, I know that you’ve never pretended to have sympathy for real rape victims the way John did, but insulting “real rape” victims isn’t going to get you anywhere. Even more rape apologists pretend to care about what they like to call “real rape.”
5:57 am
Yes, Dorothy,
It is upsetting for me too, to see how fucked up you ladies are!
Melissa, way in the beginning talked about her rape…
Then, after Wren Falsely Accused me of being a rapist for disagreeing with her, and later, so did Leftard do the same thing – which I pointed out, and even quoted, wayyyyyy the hell back there…
Melissa chimed in, hundreds of posts ago, claiming that no-one accused me of being a rapist… and I proved her wrong back then – with direct quotes.
And now… go back and re-read the crap what she just wrote in these past few threads!
I said about HER CLAIMS OF RAPE!
I did not say her False Accusations against Me.
And now she wants to get in a fucking reading comprehension battle with me.
Like when she claimed I was quoting Dworkin, and had not (at that point) even mentioned the Great Walrus’s name!
And now, she is pulling the same stunt again.
Claiming that my talking about HER rape, was actually about Wren and Lefties FALSE ACCUSATION of rape against me!
Fuck!
Unreal, eh?
You just can’t make this up!
LOL!
CRAZY CAT LADIES!
6:01 am
Um, you didn’t mention my rape in your post. You mentioned “unprovable accusations.” Which is entirely unrelated to my rape. Now all of a sudden you’re turning around and saying that you were referring to my rape instead of the assumptions you made about some things Wren and LeftSidePositive said? No one’s falling for it.
And of course I assumed you THOUGHT you were quoting Dworkin. When people use the made-up quote of “all sex is rape,” (which never appeared in any piece of feminist writing), they almost always attribute it to Dworkin. (Although sometimes they also attribute it to MacKinnon.) You don’t have to mention a name for me to recognize a tactic that has been used before.
6:03 am
Your postings about Wren’s and Gabriella’s experiences are quite disgusting and in Wren’s case I can’t comprehend how you dare to diminish a survivor’s experience like you did earlier.
Lol!
Gabriella is hardly a “survivor” for having seen a penis and having her butt grabbed.
Spare me.
Wren’s story is seriously in question… even by her own admission.
And what kind of fucked up world do you live in, Dorothy, that you feel it is OK to absolutely never, ever, question a victim, merely because they claim they are victim?
Do you think I could call the cops and show them the empty parking spot in my driveway and claim that my car was stolen? And that the police ought not to question if I even owned a car in the first place?
That’s what you are saying.
I certainly hope that more intelligent women bring lunatics like you in line, because otherwise, there is no other conclusion that women have spent the last 40 years proving that men have been right for the past 4000 years!
My goodness, this is unreal!
6:07 am
Um, you didn’t mention my rape in your post. You mentioned “unprovable accusations.” – Melissa
From #363, You Fucking IDIOT!
If you can’t even remember the shit you wrote on this thread, which anyone can easily verify – including you… why should anyone believe your memories of this alleged rape of yours?
And really, why the fuck should they?
You obviously have the IQ of a vegetable!
6:08 am
Actually, only someone with the IQ of a vegetable would believe your shit. Bringing up two totally unrelated things, and then claiming that they were related in the first place, and trying to undermine me with it? Please.
6:09 am
Look, I don’t know if you honestly believe what you’re saying, or if you’re just hoping that some stupid person will read it and take it seriously, but either way it’s really time for you to give up.
6:09 am
From #360
And yet, you fly around the internet, throwing personal business like an un-provable claim of rape,
6:10 am
“Gabriella is hardly a “survivor” for having seen a penis and having her butt grabbed.”
That’s why I wrote: “and in Wren’s case I can’t comprehend how you dare to diminish a survivor’s experience.”
–> So much about your reading comprehension skills you were discussing with Melissa.
“And what kind of fucked up world do you live in, Dorothy, that you feel it is OK to absolutely never, ever, question a victim, merely because they claim they are victim?”
Nowhere did I say it is never, ever okay to question a victim. But first: It is – like you rightly said – for the police to ask, maybe for the alleged rapist’s defendent or the jugde. See, how you don’t fall into this category? (Because even if you might be a policeman, an attorney or a judge, you were not involved in *this* case, so you don’t get to ask questions.)
Second: There’s a difference between asking questions and cornering the victim and implicitly accusing the victim to lie and make things up. And that is never, ever okay.
6:11 am
How is an un-provable CLAIM of rape – You claim to be raped, no?
In any way related to
An accusation of rape against me?
6:12 am
Anything is OK on the web – Leftie already established that with John Dias.
6:18 am
#381: Exactly. Glad you finally get it.
Oh, and just because veritably anything is allowed on the web doesn’t make it a good thing to do as a human being. I’m just sayin’.
6:21 am
This has gotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off track. Let’s return to the two central questions (the one that sparked the discussion and the one that has dominated it.)
1. Do some rape victims deserve what they get?
2. Can forcing sex on a non-consenting person be legitimately termed “rape”?
6:24 am
And, Dorothy,
Wren’s claims are highly suspect because,
First – She falsely accused someone of being a rapist merely for disagreeing with her. (Far before her rape was questioned), and if she throws accusations like that around, how inclined might she be to do so to her alleged rapist, especially since he was a friend, a room-mate, was drunk, and took over a year to decide, herself, if she was, actually raped.
Secondly – She insinuated that the men she works with, would risk their employment and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and loss of/inferior employment, merely so they can happily brag about how they read of rape fantasies on an online porn site… which is an extremely dubious explanation for how she knows said porn site has female authored rape fantasies. It is far more plausible that she reads the site herself, and concocted the story about the men, given how incredibly devastating to their lives such an act could be.
She certainly should not be believed “just because she says she was raped.”
Forget it!
6:27 am
Lol! Yeah, sure, Melissa… did you actually take the time to go read all that, and now realize what a fucking doofus you are, and now want to shift the subject?
6:30 am
I’m tired of what a fucking doofus you are, and you already shifted the subject a bunch of times, and I’m just trying to get the discussion (if it can be called that) back on track. I’ve already disproved your bogus claims about my reading comprehension skills multiple times and in detail. How ’bout you answer those two questions I posed?
6:30 am
I really don’t get what reading erotic fiction about rape has to do with anything. I read detective novels. I don’t want to get murdered, either.
7:01 am
I don’t really care either, Dorothy, it is just that Wren fabricated an elaborate, and highly dubious story that does not hold water, to explain why she knew of the online porn site Literotice.
Hey, she did it, not me.
But, she is claiming that she was raped, and that her honesty is impeccable – and so are you ladies, by saying that anything she claims, including and especially, her also highly suspect story of rape.
So no, people don’t have to accept the sympathy story about these women’s rapes, and refuse to discuss the subject, simply to spare their poor widdle feeyulings.
7:04 am
Not quite sure how anyone in their right mind would defend ANY kind non-consensual sex.
A NORMAL human, man or woman, doesn’t consider consent a grey area.
And sees no need to argue it’s particular shade of grey in defence of it’s ambiguity.
The man doth protest too much, methinks
7:13 am
Especially if this were more a more serious circumstance – such as, in a court of law, where the feminist movement has erected unconsitutional Rape Shield Laws, meaning that even if a man is facing decades in prison, the accused is not allowed to face his accuser.
My sympathy falls flat for people like Wren, whose story is suspect – even by her own admission, where it took her over a year to decide that she was actually raped, or for Doofus, who can’t even remember the past 16 minutes.
You know, I remember when this bullshit of not being allowed to question anyone who claimed rape or abuse came about – back in the 1980’s.
Back then, it was said that it was soooooooo traumatic for a “survivor” to come forward and talk about what happened… they likened it to things like Al-Anon, where family members of alcoholics were ashamed, and felt guilty, etc. etc. and therefore, it was so shameful, and such a pyschological breakthrough for them to come forward, that there is no way that anyone would possibly lie about it.
And you, I do know of a few people who have been seriously abused, or grew up in abusive situations… and you know what… they STILL don’t talk about it – even if they have, once or twice, they don’t fucking trumpet it from every goddamn mountain top.
So, I believe that TRUE survivors still follow that pattern.
But, that is not what is going on in society today.
Today, it becomes that if you go out on 20 dates with 20 women in one year, 15-18 of those women will claim to be either abused, raped, or molested within the first few times you speak to them!
Sorry, this is fucking bullshit, and if you know them for a longer period of time, it DOES become quite obvious that they are fibbing to a large degree, because their stories are so full of holes and contradictions… plus… there is NO guilt… NO shame… and they blurt it out almost as soon as you meet them… it is a BADGE OF HONOUR. And it is bullshit.
I now short-list the ones who DON’T claim such things for future relations. Because at the age I am at, I could now create a fucking Kanin study of my own, and my numbers would be much, much higher!
7:17 am
Simon, why don’t you give us your definition of non-consensual sex?
7:21 am
The fact that you need to ask indicates it is not clear to you.
I stand by what I say that no NORMAL human being would KNOW what CONSENT is on ANY given occasion.
7:22 am
Lets refrase that…..mistake in my grammar
no NORMAL human being would NOT KNOW what CONSENT is on ANY given occasion.
7:26 am
And I repeat my questions, Rob:
1. Do some rape victims deserve what they get?
2. Can forcing sex on a non-consenting person be legitimately termed “rape”?
7:33 am
That’s a chicken shit answer filled with nothing at all.
Why don’t you try again?
You came in here to be the White Knight… saddle up!
It should not be so unclear.
For example… what about the thirty second rapist?
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=thirty+second+rapist&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
At, EXACTLY, what second, defines rape, or not?
Did he have to compute and withdraw in 5 seconds, 15 seconds, or 25 seconds?
30 seconds obviously got him four years in Jail.
So, if you are fucking your girlfriend – CONSENSUALLY – and as you are about to cum, she says, “Stop! I don’t want to do this anymore!”
EXACTLY, what would you say would be a reasonable amount of time to do the following:
1). Understand that the woman you are fucking is actually telling you to stop fucking.
2). Realize she is not joking, and is really being a bitch like that.
3). Withdraw your penis from her vagina, where it had just consensually been thrusting in and out of?
How many seconds, Simon?
Smarty pants.
10 seconds? Is that rape?
30 seconds is 4 years in jail.
The girls here equate that with Traditonal Rape.
Do you?
How traumatized do you think it is, between say, 10 seconds, or 30 seconds?
7:35 am
Don’t be obtuse, Melissa.
You and Leftard have asked that same stunned question over and over again, and have repeatedly been answered – it is just something you throw out to cover up when you make a stupid mistake – like your Doofusness further up.
This thread is about how dingdongs like you find Rape in Alphabet Soup… and you have found it repeatedly in this thread.
Stop changing the subject to cover your mistakes.
7:38 am
Lets not complicate matters (which you seem to love to do).
If you dont know that the woman you are with at any given second is consenting or not, then I question your sanity (at the very least).
It’s not about seconds, or minutes or whether she says “no” or simply turns away from you. It’s about being a RATIONAL man who can keep his dick in his pants and doesn’t need to resort to coercion (again, at the very least) to get laid.
End of story
7:46 am
Bullshit, you chicken dick.
Melissa and LeftSidePositive and countless other women here claim that THIS situation was full out Traditional Rape.
Do you?
And further, have you EXPLICITLY gotten VERBAL consent every single time you’ve had intercourse?
Because the girls here claim that is what is neccessary?
Have you done that EVERY time, Simon?
Don’t shy away now.
Is Captain Save-a-Ho is scared of giving a clear answer?
7:50 am
Oh come on now – name calling??
It doesn’t always have to be verbal consent but it is ALWAYS clear whether a woman is into it or not. Simple.
And why would you concern yourself with women that AREN’T clearly into it? Seriously.
So it makes me wonder why you argue.
7:51 am
It’s not hard, Simon.
Is 15 seconds enough to time to withdraw your penis and have you spend time in prison?
And, have you gotten EXPLICIT VERBAL CONSENT each time you engaged in intercourse?
Anything else is rape, according to these loonie tunes, and you are insinuating that I am the one being abnormal?
7:51 am
Answer please.
It should not be that hard, if you claim it is so obvious.
7:52 am
Why are you evading giving a clear answer, Simon?
7:54 am
And you’ve started off by insinuating that I am abnormal – ie. name calling, so get off your soap-box and stop trying to deflect the answer.
7:54 am
We claim it’s necessary to get explicit verbal consent in order to eliminate ALL possible “gray area,” (even though we have also made the same point Simon’s making…that even without that verbal consent, there still isn’t any REAL gray area). That is to say, men who are not rapists don’t necessarily get explicit verbal consent every single time. Because they know when they have consent and when they don’t. But you (and more so John) seemed absolutely convinced that it is possible to “misread” signals and “accidentally” rape someone.
Getting explicit verbal consent is the useful suggestion we offered you guys, to make sure you don’t “accidentally” rape somebody…in case the body language of actively trying to get away from you, or being unconscious, or lying motionless and dissociated wasn’t clear enough already.
7:56 am
“Anything else is rape, according to these loonie tunes, and you are insinuating that I am the one being abnormal?”
Yeah, um, there’s a difference between saying “sex without explicit verbal consent=rape” and saying “sex without explicit verbal consent COULD BE rape.” Learn the difference.
7:57 am
That’s not what you said before.
And don’t let Simon off the hook.
He made it clear it was so easy to define.
7:58 am
Exactly this:
“That is to say, men who are not rapists don’t necessarily get explicit verbal consent every single time. Because they know when they have consent and when they don’t”
8:00 am
You keep bringing up the issue of the number of seconds as concerns the 30-second rapist.
How long does it take you to hear words, process what they mean, and act on them if someone yells “Duck!” Or what if someone asks you a question to which you know the answer…how long does it take for you to hear the words, understand their meaning, and give the reply? Certainly not 30 seconds.
You can’t claim that it could take someone 30 seconds to hear words, understand them, and act on them. That is only the case if there’s something else going on. If you have to think about it. Or if you just don’t care. The “30-second rapist” either actually had to THINK about whether or not he would respect the non-consent of his partner (how sick is that?) or else he just honestly didn’t care. And you’re trying to claim that’s not a big deal?
8:00 am
It is not about the definition of consent because it should not NEED to be defined.
You know it’s there or it’s not. Definition is not required.
8:03 am
I think Simon posed a very good question with
“And why would you concern yourself with women that AREN’T clearly into it? Seriously.”
I’d really like to know your answer.
8:11 am
Lol!
BULLSHIT!
Give an answer, Simon.
You know you stepped into a shit storm.
And further, where did I EVER say that I was with a woman who clearly wasn’t into it?
No you guys are bordering on calling me a rapist again simply because we disagree.
Simon ought to have ZERO troubles giving a CLEAR definition.
Earlier, it was the case was CLEARLY made to these ladies that if she isn’t into it, the onus could simply be upon the woman to say, “I’m not interested.”
But, THAT is not acceptable, apparently.
So, the onus is on you to get verbal consent EVERY time.
In fact, Simon, some suggested following a system as the Antioch Rules to avoid rape.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Antioch+Rules&btnG=Search&meta=
Is THAT reasonable, Simon?
Do you do that EVERY time you have sex.
Remember, previous sexual history does not count, as these ladies pointed out numerous times.
Why is it so hard for you to give a clear answer, Simon?
Why so evasive, White Knight?
8:14 am
And you can’t claim that “you just know.”
Bullshit.
Another commenter named JohnDias, earier argued about being with your wife in bed, and touching her and initiating sex.
And they thought as well that THAT could be construed as rape as well!
Simon, come on, it shouldn’t be that hard!
8:16 am
Simon, I assume that you know this already, but just in case…don’t just believe the shit he’s spouting. Most of it is, at best, exaggerated, and at worst, invented. Read the whole thread for proof, although I realize that would take forever.
8:17 am
Why do I suspect that Simon is CLEARLY a rapist, by these lunatics’ definition, and he realizes suddenly that being a White Knight for a bunch of nutbars is a lose/lose situation?
No crumbs of affection for Simon!
8:18 am
“And further, where did I EVER say that I was with a woman who clearly wasn’t into it?”
You didn’t. But you’re defending the right of men to do just that. So take the “you” in a more general sense.
Why would one want to have sex with someone who clearly isn’t into it? Why do you find it so important to defend the ability of men to have sex with people who don’t want to have sex with them that you’d spend 414 posts talking about it?
8:21 am
Exactly Melissa. It boils down to that. Why defend men wanting to have sex with women who aren’t clearly into it.
Unless you are defending your own actions????
There is no other logical reason.
8:25 am
SIMON,
ANSWER THE QUESTION!
You’re evasiveness is quite telling.
8:26 am
And don’t insinuate I am a rapist, White Knight.
You said it was so clear any NORMAL person would know.
But you are afraid to answer, and so now you are trying to call me a rapist.
Bullshit.
You have evaded EVERY question.
Why?
8:32 am
I am not going to explain every single hypothetical situation a man can find himself in with a woman. That is just ludicrous.
If you can’t make a judgement call on a rational course of action at any given time then well, you FAIL as a human being.
8:32 am
Let’s just go to something more clear cut for you, Simon.
I know your chivalry is contradicting your sense of reason.
So, this is simple for you.
Do you think it was just for the 30 Second Rapist to go to prison?
And, should there be a difference if it took 15 seconds?
8:33 am
I am not going to explain every single hypothetical situation a man can find himself in with a woman. That is just ludicrous.
If you can’t make a judgement call on a rational course of action at any given time then well, you FAIL as a human being. — Simon
That is a FAIL, Simon.
JohnDias argued that extensively, and it was found unnacceptable.
8:34 am
Why can’t you just give an answer, Simon?
8:41 am
I have been arguing all along that there is hardly a situation in which these women cannot find rape.
In fact, even consent can still constitute rape.
Now, Simon, Did the 30 second rapist deserve to go to jail?
And, would a 15 second rapist also deserve to go to jail?
Why do you support this nonsense, Simon?
These girls aren’t going to sleep with you, nor even be seen with you. Are you that desperate for female approval that you will deny reason for even a crumb of it from anonymous females on the internet?
That is pathetic… and, really, quite ABNORMAL.
8:51 am
It must be hard living without a spine.
11:51 am
Rob, it’s a little upsetting to watch you have some kind of mental breakdown in a blog comment thread. Maybe you should pour yourself a nice glass of whiskey and have a quiet sit-down for a little bit.
Doesn’t that sound nice? Don’t worry, the feminists will still be here tomorrow.
12:12 pm
Rob, Wren never said that because you disagree with her you are a rapist. She said that the only way it would possibly make sense that you go to these lengths to diminish rape victims and demean consent was if you were. She was speaking hypothetically (emphasis mine):
“The only possible explanation I can come up with for your position is that you in fact have been guilty of the sex without consent thing that you so poetically call “rayyyyype”. Is that why you like to talk about “Traditional Rape” so much, because that is the only type of rape you are willing to admit is valid, and since you didn’t do that, then you are not a rapist? So tell us, is that it? Did you do it a couple of times when the girl was passed out or clearly not into it, but heck she didn’t fight you so that made it okay?”
I said, IF you ever act on your beliefs, THEN I will try to get you locked up. An if-then statement is 3rd grade logic. If your aunt has balls, then she’s your uncle, as the saying goes.
and: “Is it because you know deep down you’re a rapist (or fantasize about being one) and if you actually asked for consent you wouldn’t get it?”
Again, these are all hypothetical statements, not accusations. You have never addressed why you have these attitudes, and we have simply said that the most logical reason for you to have these beliefs is if it benefits you.
Also, after your little porn fantasy, I asked–if you really do have women screaming that they want you, why are you so opposed to women having the right to consent to sex?
12:15 pm
Another thing, Rob, rape shield laws don’t prevent defendants facing their accuser in open court–they just say that they can’t be cross-examined about their PAST SEXUAL BEHAVIOR which has no bearing on whether or not they were raped.
12:20 pm
Melissa,
“How long does it take you to hear words, process what they mean, and act on them if someone yells “Duck!” Or what if someone asks you a question to which you know the answer…how long does it take for you to hear the words, understand their meaning, and give the reply? Certainly not 30 seconds.”
According to Wikipedia, human reaction time is 140-160 milliseconds for an auditory stimulus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time
So, yeah, 30 seconds is very deliberate.
12:26 pm
Rob:
“And you, I do know of a few people who have been seriously abused, or grew up in abusive situations… and you know what… they STILL don’t talk about it – even if they have, once or twice, they don’t fucking trumpet it from every goddamn mountain top.
So, I believe that TRUE survivors still follow that pattern.”
How convenient! You have constructed a fantasy world that prevents anyone from seeking justice.
I am continually stunned by the lengths you will go to in order to trash victims. But, on the bright side, I’ve learned something from it. I’ve learned how entrenched hatred of women can be. I’ve learned what lurks under the surface of someone who spits out “feminist” every time a woman asserts herself. I’ve learned how essential it is that we as a society educate our young people–male AND female–about consent, about their rights, and about respecting each other.
12:34 pm
Rob:
“EXACTLY, what would you say would be a reasonable amount of time to do the following:
1). Understand that the woman you are fucking is actually telling you to stop fucking.
2). Realize she is not joking, and is really being a bitch like that.
3). Withdraw your penis from her vagina, where it had just consensually been thrusting in and out of?”
Rob–the scientific answer is less than one-fifth of one second. That’s all it takes you to know that she said stop and react. I’ll be very generous and give you TEN TIMES more than you need, so you get almost 2 seconds. You MUST react within that time frame–”are you ok?,” “do you need me to stop?” etc. are acceptable. Once that’s confirmed, you have another 160 milliseconds to withdraw.
Let’s note the portion in bold, shall we? YOU HAVE A LOT OF ANGER AGAINST WOMEN WHO SAY NO. This tells us a lot about why you minimize rape so much. You are such a disgusting excuse for a human being that you don’t think women even SHOULD say no.
You can’t even answer the extremely simple question, should a person get to decide if they want to have sex?
2:01 pm
Melissa,
Actually, the point that has been made so far is that the lack of explicit verbal consent from a woman every single time constitutes rape and that it is impossible for men to misread women’s non-verbal cues for a withdrawal of consent. No one posited that it could be rape, only that it is rape and any man failing to get non-verbal consent is a rapist. Granted, the rule does not in practice apply to women, since those pushing it framed the rule as only applying to the initiator (who is typically male) and also claimed that women are too frightened to give their consent or withdraw it.
Giving explicit verbal consent and explicit verbal withdrawal of consent is the useful suggestion that has also been offered to ensure that women’s cues are not misread. The idea that every woman’s lack or withdrawal of consent involves trying to get away or lying motionless is misleading. However, both suggestions have been rejected, leaving the impression that in an act involving two people only one person — the male — has any responsibility to inquire about consent, with male consent ironically being treated as an inherent given.
Discussions like these are enlightening if only because they demonstrate how skewed people’s perspectives are. While people may dislike Rob’s comments (I am one of them), his comments are no different than what the other side thinks. They are no more insulting, no more juvenile, no more deliberately dismissive. Both points of view come from an unwillingness to see the other side’s perspective, and both views are dangerous, although the feminist view is more problematic not because it wholly absolves women of any responsibility, but also frames male initiated sex as inherently as potentially rape.
It is curious how personal such discussions get and how willing people are to attack others and then complain when attacks are returned. An impressively terrible message about how feminist view sex has been presented, along with a very negative view of men.
2:08 pm
No, Toysoldier, we are not saying that every sex act that does not have verbal consent is rape. We are saying that if you have sex without verbal consent, you are LIABLE TO BE CHARGED WITH RAPE. If she did want it, you’re ok, but if you didn’t ask and she says she didn’t want it, you have no proof of consent. And, we have pointed out many situations where people may persuade themselves they have consent, but are actually intimidating others to have intercourse against their will.
Please show me ANY evidence that those here have said this doesn’t apply to women. We have said over and over again that it DOES.
2:24 pm
Simon:
“It is not about the definition of consent because it should not NEED to be defined.
You know it’s there or it’s not. Definition is not required.”
I’ve been debating how to respond to this, because I honestly don’t think you’re trying to make excuses for not getting consent. You seem to place a priority on respecting others’ wishes, and I applaud you for that.
BUT, not everyone is like you. Therefore, definition most definitely IS required. You have pompous asses like John Dias who think that someone “just passively sitting there” is giving consent and “still deciding if they enjoyed it.” You have sickos like Rob who think that someone who says “stop” during a sex act is just being “bitchy” and respecting her is optional. You have this cruel idiot (from DoubleX, highlighted on The Sexist) who thought the following encounter was consensual:
A woman once took me home with her; I thought we had some real, if drunken, feelings for each other after we’d met at a party. She took a shower, joined me in her bed, things progressed the way you might think they would, and I thought we had a lovely encounter, though she seemed a little bit tense and I mentioned it to her. She responded, “well, you’d be tense too, if you’d just been RAPED!”
Wait a minute, I said, that’s not how I saw it AT ALL. We didn’t exactly discuss our intentions beforehand, but she joined me in bed, nude and apparently willing, and hadn’t offered any resistance when I made my advances. She may have whispered “no” once or twice, but didn’t make any effort to stop me or even slow me down much. Some may call it “date rape”, but I really liked her, thought we were doing fine and would have loved to have had a further relationship. That didn’t happen.
She says no, she was tense enough for him to notice, and yet it NEVER OCCURS TO HIM that he doesn’t have consent. He’s apparently honest about that, and still doesn’t understand that he raped someone.
Then, you have this rapist (highlighted in a Sexist Beatdown):
The following has been greatly abbreviated. Here it is in full:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/08/28/sexist-beatdown-no-means-yes-not-just-for-frat-dudes-anymore/
Once the victim was on the bed, appellant began “straddling” her again while he undid the knot in her sweatpants…The victim did not physically resist in any way while on the bed because appellant was on top of her, and she “couldn’t like go anywhere.” She did not scream out at anytime because, “[i]t was like a dream was happening or some-thing.”
Appellant then used one of his hands to “guide” his penis into her vagina. At that point, after appellant was inside her, the victim began saying “no, no to him softly in a moaning kind of way … because it was just so scary.” After about thirty seconds, appellant pulled out his penis and ejaculated onto the victim’s stomach.
Immediately thereafter, appellant got off the victim and said, “Wow, I guess we just got carried away.” To this the victim retorted, “No, we didn’t get carried away, you got carried away.” …
The defendant testified in his own behalf. He admitted that he initiate[d] the first physical contact, but added that the victim warmly responded to his advances by passionately returning his kisses. He conceded that she was continually “whispering … no’s,” but claimed that she did so while “amorously . . . passionately” moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement.
Look at all these situations where guys have persuaded themselves that they had consent. (I’m pretty sure the last one is claiming “she wanted it” intentionally, but this is the classic claim of rapists.) This is why definition IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. You might be perfectly capable of telling what is real consent, but–here’s the scary part–THESE GUYS THOUGHT THEY WERE TOO.
6:08 pm
It makes me sad/mad to see the thread get hijacked by the usual mantroll crowd which always shows up in any discussion of rape being wrong.
They often don’t read or address the original post – except whatever statistical error allows them to dismiss it – and their agenda is always pre-determined and impervious to concession: rape apology and/or denial. Some may begin with caveats about how rape is a problem BUT – and whatever comes after the but is the sum of their real thoughts. Many don’t bother with the but.
The point of this post are the bogus analogies which try to frame rape as this detached depersonalized risk like a natural disaster or inherent risk, rather than a crime committed by rapists who are responsible for their wrong actions.
For hardcore rape deniers even the idea of using language which holds rapists responsible for their acts is radical and dangerous and must be shouted down. They act especially threatened if anyone dares touch their absurd rhetorical crutch of the frat party as a free zone in which abuse of half the human population is inevitable. Not only is the frat party a bogus argument, but most rapes occur outside this false context. Thus this thread must be trolled relentlessly until it’s about the word “consent” and their little frat party jungle bull is safe from scrutiny.
6:17 pm
Toysoldier, you would be making some extremely valid points if that had been in any way what we had said. But as LeftSidePositive has pointed out…most of the arguments you’ve attributed to us just aren’t true. We simply never said them.
I know that your views on gender and consent are going to be heavily affected by your history. And if this is too difficult for you, then that’s your prerogative…but feminists could be great allies for you. We believe consent is paramount, we oppose ALL rape, we don’t buy into bullshit arguments like “boys always want sex,” and we would never excuse the women who did those horrible things to you. Society in general is cruel to male rape victims. You might discover that finding friends who associate themselves with a movement that rejects the gender binary and the typical societal narratives that excuse your abusers…might be helpful.
9:20 am
Let me tell you, reading through these posts makes me even happier than I am in a same-sex relationship. As an outsider looking in, its sad that the divide and general mistrust between men and womnen gotten so bad.
11:35 am
LeftSidePositive, the addition of males being “liable” to be charged with rape in a new caveat. Regardless of that, your response demonstrates my point. The responsibility of consent is placed solely on males, with women possessing the potential to file charges against men for rape for something those women may not have even made clear. And you should re-read my statement. I said that in practice this rule does not applied to women. I see no indication that it does, particularly since when I asked if you thought any of the women I had sex with should be held legally liable, you remained silent.
Melissa, the points are there for people to read. Whether they agree with them or not will likely stem from their general political beliefs. However, all of those pushing the “JUST ASK!” idea have not pushed for women to make their level of consent known. Each time that idea gets brought up someone argues why women cannot inform men of their consent. It is baffling to read because such a view denies women any real agency. Curiously, having watched how men interact with my brother, I have never seen this issue among gay men. I have also never experienced it in any of my sexual encounters with men as an adult. This inability and unwillingness to clearly give or withdraw consent seems to be strictly limited to women (I am unsure whether it occurs with lesbians). Again it is quite baffling.
As for the other comments, considering the nature of my experiences, I am quite familiar with the feminist position on male consent and sexual violence against males, and I would not ally with anyone harboring such dangeous views.
12:10 pm
Toysoldier–I absolutely did NOT stay silent. This is what I said in regards to your experiences:
Toysoldier–I am very worried for you. Really–very worried.
These scenarios you’re describing are NOT ok. It is NOT acceptable to use someone’s body unless you are absolutely sure the other person is fully in agreement with the sex act. We have repeatedly said this applies to women as well as men.
To which, you accused me of displaying “disingenuous feminist pity.” I think this may get at the root of how you are having difficulty getting the help you need. You are so wrapped up in a label of what you think other people (i.e. feminists) believe, that you can’t actually listen to what is being said. Rape support resources consistently emphasize that men can be victims of rape, too:
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape
Furthermore, none of us saying “JUST ASK!” are telling women that they shouldn’t say no or shouldn’t resist–in fact, in three of the rape scenarios I quoted above, the women DID in fact say no. (I respect the victim’s assessment of their risk of physical injury in whether or not to resist). No one is saying women (or men) should be unclear about their sexual desires. What we ARE saying is that it is unacceptable for a man to claim a woman was unclear (in some cases EVEN WHEN SHE SAID NO), and use that as an excuse to rape her.
Also, this being “unclear” is quite simply nonsense. Research shows that a subset of men, the “undetected rapists” regularly single out women who they perceive to be easy targets, are adept at using just enough force to gain compliance but not leave physical evidence. This behavior is CONSCIOUS and INTENTIONAL.
http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/files/RAPE_FACT_SHEET.pdf
So, telling women, “be clearer!” is NOT going to protect them at all.
12:23 pm
Toysoldier, I realized after I posted that your last comment asked about legal liability. Of course, the women who assaulted you when you were a child should ABSOLUTELY be held legally liable–that’s not even a question of “consent” or “grey area” at all. As for your adult encounters, I was unclear as to whether you meant that nonverbal communication was ok for you or it wasn’t…if you did not consent, and you did not intend to consent, then yes, of course the women who violated you should be held legally responsible for their actions.
1:37 pm
Toysoldier, could you please point out to me the portion of LeftSidePositive’s statement:
“Please show me ANY evidence that those here have said this doesn’t apply to women. We have said over and over again that it DOES.”
…which places the responsibility solely on males? I fail to see how our repeated statements of “all the same rules apply to women who initiate sex” have given you the impression that we don’t believe all the same rules apply to women who initiate sex. Talk about being baffled.
“I am quite familiar with the feminist position on male consent and sexual violence against males, and I would not ally with anyone harboring such dangeous views.”
If you don’t want help, that’s truly your choice, so I won’t mention it again after this. Just…don’t refer to the feminist view on sexual violence against males (namely: that sexual violence against males is 100% unacceptable and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, as we work tirelessly to undo the cultural biases against male rape victims) is “dangerous.” You’ve obviously been exposed to a great deal of victim-blaming, and may have internalized a lot of it. That you would actively consider the people who are fighting hard to help male survivors of sexual abuse “dangerous” is also baffling to me.
2:21 pm
Toysoldier, another thing you might want to consider is that not all women are feminists. Many women still believe in outdated and restrictive gender roles and, like all people who view the world through this framework, don’t understand sexual violence against males. This is, sadly, an area where our culture has a lot of ignorance and prejudice. Of course, this does NOT excuse any women who were unkind or dismissive of your experiences, but please don’t imagine that this is the “feminist” position. Instead, these attitudes show just how important it is to educate and raise awareness among all members of society about the necessity of consent and respect for others.
11:04 pm
A 15-year-old girl today recanted her report that she was kidnapped at gunpoint off a busy Richmond street and gang-raped on Friday night, admitting that she made up the story because she was late getting home, police said.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/17/BA6O1BJJSR.DTL#ixzz0cvt2Xe0V
Jeesh, we definitely are living in a rape culture, you injustice apologists
2:03 am
I don’t doubt that story. But over a single weekend, there was one false rape accusation, and on average about 2000 rapes. Do you doubt the 2%-8% figure? As long as there were at least fewer than 160 false rapes reported to the police this weekend, our statistics hold up just fine.
I’m not saying that false accusations are ok; of course they’re wrong. But getting so much more upset about false rape accusations than, say, false theft accusations is just silly.
11:18 am
Rob: “And you, I do know of a few people who have been seriously abused, or grew up in abusive situations… and you know what… they STILL don’t talk about it – even if they have, once or twice, they don’t fucking trumpet it from every goddamn mountain top.
So, I believe that TRUE survivors still follow that pattern.”
Rob I am so glad that a misogynist like you buys into the “If you are a victim of a crime, you should feel ashamed and keep quiet about it, because deep down you know you have a reason to feel ashamed.” Survivors know the importance of breaking the silence. Silence only furthers the crime. Speaking out and telling your story are very healing and are very helpful to others who have experienced similar atrocities. Where would we be if no one spoke out to raise awareness and end abuse. RAINN would not be in existence. There would be no domestic violence shelters since heaven knows a woman would never admit (gasp) to being abused by her husband. Silence is deadly. For you to believe that survivors should remain silent shows what kind of a person you really are.
11:24 am
Wow, after a weekend off the computer, I return to this thread to see that Rob has out and out taken part in some hard core VICTIM BLAMING. Rob, I told my story to further discussion and show how things are on the other side of this crime, a side of life I honestly hope you never have to experience. Nothing is ever the same. I will answer your horrible accusations to give you a taste for how things really are.
Rob:
“Although, I’ll bet if we questioned someone like Wren, who wasn’t traditionally raped, a little more closely about her drunken experience with her room-mate
(First off I never said he was a roommate. He lived in the same house with myself and ten other interns, but the guys and girls had separate rooms, separate bathroom, etc. AND according to house rules, boys are girls were NOT allowed in each other’s room. There was plenty of common area for mingling, no need to take it to the bedroom),
where he just came into her room, and the mere act of him lying on top of her prevented her from saying “no,” we would find a lot of things that would bring the entire situation into question a lot more than she lets on.“Like, where was she drinking? At a pub, or at home? Who was she with? Was she drinking with him? Who was drunker? Does she have any clear recollection of her behaviour – she was drunk after all.”
THESE QUESTIONS ARE VICTIM BLAMING. Does it really have any bearing if I was drinking at home or out on the town, whether I was with friends or not? Would the answer really cause a logical person to say, “Yeah, she was drinking in town with her friends, OF COURSE SHE DESERVED TO BE RAPED”
But I will answer the questions nonetheless. I was at a friend’s house; all of the interns I lived with were there. It was something we had done several times on a Friday night – share a few drinks and watch a movie. So Rob, does that mean I deserved what I got? And yes I remember rather well what happened. I did not say I was falling over drunk, I was over the legal limit, but I still had my bearings and remember what happened.
“Does she even recall her own words before she retired to bed? If not, how can she recall the events after?”
Yes, I left the party with two of the guys and one girl who was the designated driver. When we arrived back at the house, the one guy ( not the guy who raped me) walked me to my door. I said goodnight, entered my room, CLOSED THE DOOR, brushed my teeth, set my alarm clock and got into bed. It was 12:30 AM. I remember because I had set my alarm for 6AM and I was annoyed with myself that I had stayed out so late and would have to get up in less than six hours. I fell asleep. I woke up some time later (when I caught a glimpse of my clock during the attack it said 2:34). I cannot begin to describe to you what it feels like. I woke up thinking it was so cold, I couldn’t figure out why it was so cold, I had been having a dream about being attacked, I was glad I was awake because the dream was awful, then I realized the weight on my chest, that my clothes were off, that someone was on top of me, and I thought I must be still dreaming, but then I felt him inside of me, the pain was excruciating, I knew my nightmare was a reality. I kept trying to tell myself that I was crazy that this couldn’t be happening. That he was a nice guy who would never do that to me. He told me before that he was a Christian who like me believed that sex should be saved for marriage, so I just was in such shock. I couldn’t align what I knew about him with what he was doing to me. It made no sense. I grabbed the blanket and rolled over, hoping he was drunk and he would go away. STUPID me. At that point I really thought he was just acting crazy drunk, that he didn’t know what he was doing. Then he grabbed me roughly turned me back over, ripped the blanket away and held me down. I know I was screaming NO NO NO NO NO over and over again in my head, but the sound didn’t reach my lips. I shook my head no, I cried, and I prayed that it would all end quickly. When I finally realized he wasn’t going to stop I just tried to retreat in my mind. Because – what was I going to do, Try to fight him off? And even if I succeeded where would I go? I had no clothes on, so what I was supposed to do – run naked through the house? And then go where, where would I go where he wouldn’t just follow me? I gave in to the fate at hand, I surrendered and went limp. I will not go on with the details of what he did to me, suffice it to say that he did ever possible sex act he could in the most degrading way, I passed in and out of consciousness of what was happening. And at some point when he was shoving my head into the pillow I passed out and did not wake up again till my alarm clock went off. Thankfully he was gone.
“She claims they were “just friends”, and yet, it is very difficult for men and women to maintain a platonic relationship (Harry met Sally), and I have known a plethora of “friends” who agreed to be room-mates (ONCE AGAIN WE WERE NOT ROOMATES) while still knowing that there was more to it than merely that, and it is often a ruse to try and create a relationship… if so, which one wanted the relationship more?”
As I have said before, he was just a friend. And I disagree with you that men and women cannot be just friends. I think that the right kind of people can be friends. True friendship is based on mutual respect for the other person, and a genuine care for them – sometimes that can translate into romantic feelings, but it is by no means a given that that is going to happen. As I stated before I work in a male-dominated field, during college and even in my current position, I have many male friends. I do not think of them in a romantic way and I am pretty sure most of them don’t think of me in that way either. I am sorry if you have never known true friendship with a woman without wanting her in a sexual way.
“How long did she live with him after this crime?”
We lived in the SAME HOUSE, not TOGETHER for a week after that. I am not sure of the point of your question. Should I have gone off and lived on the streets to not be in the same house as him? Was I the one who was supposed to run away? I was in a strange city with a nonrefundable plain ticket that was for the following week. Maybe if I had been in a right state of mind I would have gone to the police, tried to get him kicked out of the house, etc. But I had fallen into the common reaction of self blame.
At the time I was so ashamed that I had LET someone do that to me, that I basically shut down. Oh yes, I fell into the victim-blaming of myself – I was drinking, maybe if I hadn’t been I would have been able to fight him off or I wouldn’t have been in as deep a sleep and would have woken up sooner. I blamed myself for trusting him, stupid stupid me. I blamed myself for thinking that since we were all very religious that anything bad could happen in the house. I blamed myself for not sleeping with a weapon – hello single girl in a strange city, of course I should have had a weapon in my room. But after a long time of blaming myself for what happened, I came to realize that I did not invite him in, I did not take off my clothes, I did not tell him he could have sex with me – he chose to do those things with no care for me or my consent or my feelings. He was the only one to blame.
“Was he dating another woman by the time they ended their cohabitation?“
I am not sure what this question has to do with anything – just because a man is in a relationship doesn’t mean he can’t hurt someone. Also most rape has more to do with power and control than sexual gratification.
“And further, did she charge him with rape? If not, why not?”
No, and I will tell you why not. Just because I have finally stopped blaming myself, and realized that it was his fault, doesn’t mean I can bring myself to ruin his life. I know how crazy that must sound. But I honestly do hope and pray that what he did to me was his once and only time raping someone, I do hope and pray that he is a better person now. The damage is done and him going to jail doesn’t guarantee me my life back the way it was, it doesn’t even guarantee me an apology from him. You also know as I stated earlier that I did inquire about possibly prosecuting him. It was something I considered for a long time, and if I ever find out that he did this to someone else will follow through on (because that will mean that he has not changed and never will and doesn’t deserve a third chance). I have no expectation of getting him prosecuted should that occur, but I will press charges for the record.
So there goes your theory on me and other survivors wanting to destroy the lives of the men/women that did this to us. I did not call rape or run and tell all his friends. I have not even confronted him about it -because it is not about him, it is about me and what he did to me and how much my life has changed because of what happened. I have struggled, but I survived and his crime will silence me no longer. I have no reason to stay silent. I believe in activism, and making others aware of the real dangers out there. If I can help one other survivor or educate one person, then I will have succeeded in using my experience for good. And in the end that’s all that really matters.
10:38 pm
I have to agree with Hess on this one. I’ve been married to a “bear” for more than ten years, and despite the fact he gets very very “hungry” at times, He only “snacks” when it’s offered or agreed on.
2:06 pm
Why do people want so badly to deny rape and how common it is?
I forget who it was, one of the rape denying fellows on the discussion – brought up a 15 and 14 yr old in a relationship having sex as his example of a statutory rape case?
Of course that is ridiculous, that law is there to protect the young and naive from being coerced by an older more authoritative power.
Unfortunately it gets used by parents who hate the idea of their children consenting to sex with an equal.
Statutory rape is rape, its child abuse, the use of age, authority and experience to make a minor have sex with you.
8:15 pm
On another thread, John Dias said:
“By the way, you’ve made plenty of caustic statements that attempt to portray me as a defender of rape, including in this very thread. You neglected to mention that the statements that you quoted from me referred to women who specifically clarified to the survey taker that they had NOT been raped. What you quoted from me was speculation about reasons why they would have considered their consensual experience as less than ideal, while not going so far as to describe it as rape. If you call such subtleties scary, then you’re lambasting the right of women to describe their own experiences in their own words — something that feminists routinely deny women who assert that they have not been as victimized as ideologues like you would imply that they have.”
No, you idiot, it referred to women who experienced attacks that MET THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF RAPE, as we already proved to you. Lots of women (and men) don’t know the legal definition of rape. Women in the comments told you about their own experiences of denial after their rapes, and how hard it was for them to have the courage to call their experience “rape,” and you showed astounding disrespect.
Answering the question “Have you ever had sex when you didn’t want to because someone held you down or threatened physical force?” does not mean your sexual experience was “less than ideal” It means it was RAPE.
4:54 am
Put simply, I have had sexual relationships with women. I am a gentle and respectful guy. I agree that we should ask our partners if they want to have intercourse, but to ask for permission every time, seems a bit awkward. Once again, I am 100% confident that I have never raped a person but I haven’t asked for consent every step of the way. You would consider me a rapist?
5:17 am
So, have you read the previous #448? ;-)
The main point that I want to emphasize is that if you are the one initiating the sex act, it is your responsibility to be absolutely sure that you have consent before it begins.
Now, especially in beginning relationships, dates, friend situations, etc. it is ABSOLUTELY NOT acceptable to get as far as you can with the excuse that you may have “misread the situation.” Clear and enthusiastic consent is required. In these scenarios, I will say that it really, really has to be verbal.
I honestly don’t think any reasonable person could fail to tell the difference between enthusiastic non-verbal consent and paralysis/terror/dissociation, but the brutal fact of the matter there are many men who subsequently claimed she “was totally into it” or “secretly wanted it” (or some variant) even while saying no, or struggling to get away.
Furthermore, just because someone is consenting to (and enthusiastic about) some foreplay or sex acts, does not mean they’re consenting to go all the way. So, if you haven’t been intimate a lot before, be absolutely, totally clear, because everyone is different. Unless you ask and she says yes, you don’t know what the situation is and you have no right to proceed until you do.
Now, for long-established relationships, it is generally more likely that you know what consent means (and looks like) for that person. As Melissa has mentioned, couples may have a “shorthand” between each other, but that in NO way means that the state of consent is unclear, or that one party gets to assume they can go as far as they want just because the two of them are in a relationship. It still could (and probably should) be verbal, but that can be as simple as “Okay?” or “Do you wanna?” or “How ’bout it, honey?” (I won’t bother with any other variations…). Remember, a significant portions of rape happen *within* relationships, so one partner is being made to have sex when they don’t want to. Now, if you’re both enthusiastically kissing each other, and tearing each other’s clothes off, AND you have a clearly established sexual relationship, it’s almost certainly fine.
The definition of rape is that someone was made to have sex against his or her will. Assuming you can tell if someone is willing can be dangerous (not to mention very painful and traumatizing for her!) so you’re not safe unless you ask.
5:41 am
I don’t know. Let’s take petting. One of the ways that men have traditionally attempted to seek consent is by gradually moving the hands from uncontroversial parts to controversial parts. This has been the status quo and has worked well in the overwhelming majority of cases. I agree that penetration is a much different case and mandates a different etiquette. Also considering the fact that most women are capably of delineating boundaries, requiring a universal standard, for the sake of the few, is a bit cumbersome. As for the visual cues that women display when they are doing something against their will, I agree that they are probably pretty clear. I say probably because I have never encountered such behavior.
However, if I was a juror and the argument for rape was body language and the lack of verbal requests from the male I would have a hard time sending him to jail.
5:57 am
“Petting”?! Is this 1957??
I’m sorry, but let’s not get caught up in the “gatekeeper” stereotype, shall we? Women do not exist in a perpetual state of consent, so don’t think that you have the prerogative to proceed as you like. It’s fundamentally disrespectful, to put it mildly. Don’t just keep going after her and expect her to have to police the encounter and her body–actually care about what SHE wants, because she’s a human being and the point of this is to enjoy an encounter WITH, not on, at, or to, another person.
And, it’s not “for the sake of a few.” It is for all woman, so that you don’t assume that you know what we want and ignore what we really want (or don’t want).
In your rape scenario, how exactly did the male get consent? Did he? If not, he DOES NOT get to make his “best guess” and if he proceeds without consent he is liable for the consequences.
6:17 am
O.K. let’s look at it differently. If rape is sex without verbal consent, then I have raped my girlfriends with whom I have had loving and caring relationships.
Person B: No, rape is sex with verbal or non-verbal consent.
Person A: How do you establish non-verbal consent?
Person B: By observing body language
Person A: But body language can be misleading and even if it is accurate 90 something percent of the time, drunkenness, social retardation, and the nuances and subjective nature of body language can make that difficult to gauge?
Person B: That’s why verbal consent is superior.
Person A: Agreed, but considering the fact that verbal consent is unfortunately not the cultural norm, and the vagueness of body language rules out conviction for reasons of reasonable doubt: the woman or man must either verbally or physically protest in order for me to send them to jail where they will probably be raped as well.
Disclaimers.
I am here having a philosophical argument about an issue that is very emotional in nature. I hate rape and rapists and have had a family member who is raped. Even though I know I will never commit rape, the notion that I could go to jail for misreading body language is incredibly frightening
6:20 am
Sorry for the grammar on that one. On the first person B I said with when I meant without.
11:59 am
That’s why we are insisting that the “cultural norm” BE verbal consent. That is what the “Yes means Yes” campaign is all about.
Don’t you think it’s MORE FRIGHTENING that someone could BE RAPED by some idiot who thinks they can read body language??
In all of your calculations, are you only concerned with your own potential to go to prison? Doesn’t it worry you that you might have caused another human being lasting trauma, pain, and psychological damage? Don’t you feel a basic moral obligation not to take advantage of or violate your fellow human beings?
Also, think about how many things women are told to do to prevent rape–don’t wear this, don’t drink that, don’t go there, don’t say that, don’t do that, and on and on and ON. For all of that burden that gets placed on us…for your part, why can’t you just ask?
The vast majority of rape victims do protest to some degree, but many others are impaired in some way–taken by surprise, held down, intoxicated, threatened, etc. And, yet, whatever happens, people are always eager to declare they didn’t protest “enough.”
12:28 pm
I am worried about rape and to a lesser extent I am worried about people going to jail for a rape they did not commit as well as all rapes being considered equal. Having sex in a haze of drunkenness, in my view, is not nearly as severe as expressly refusing consent and getting raped.
I could get on board with a verbal consent protocol as long as it was made clear that this proposal has a few drawbacks.
1) It’s really awkward. It’s kind of rape prevention planning and it isn’t the way a lot of healthy and sane people have sex. I say it’s rape prevention planning because in a perfect world it wouldn’t be necessary. It’s like a pre-nuptual agreement. It probably should become the standard, but it’s not nearly as smooth as the alternative.
12:47 pm
Aaawwww…it’s AWKWARD????
You poor thing!!! How could you possibly be asked to face AWKWARDNESS (gasp!) when the other party is only facing pain, violation, helplessness, and lasting psychological trauma?
It’s not just “prevention planning.” It’s giving a damn about the other person’s thoughts and feelings. It’s recognizing that they own their own body, you don’t!
You need to ask someone for permission to use their credit card, don’t you? It’s not “prevention planning” just in case you get accused of theft. It is quite simply that using someone’s credit card without permission IS BY DEFINITION theft.
And, have you HEARD about the experiences of rape survivors who were raped while drunk?? I assure you, they’re VERY traumatizing. How extraordinarily insensitive of you to think otherwise.
If you need a primer, read Wren at #445. Then tell me all about how women need to be “educated” to respond and how alcohol involvement in rape somehow makes it less traumatic.
2:02 pm
Banyan, from what little I’ve seen of you in these two comment threads, you seem like a good person and not a rapist or rape apologist. So far. Really, if you’re worried about this, I can’t stress enough how much reading this entire thread will help you. But if you don’t do that, here are the basics.
1. Sex without consent IS rape. Period. (We’re defining “consent” as one party not being true, genuine participant in the sex act. Non-consent can take many forms–from screaming and fighting to dissociating completely and lying motionless.)
2. It is fairly safe to say that anyone who initiates a sex act who is not deeply mentally ill can tell when their partner (male or female) is non-consenting from these verbal or non-verbal cues.
3. It is usually safer to specifically ask for explicit verbal consent. This removes all your worries about accidentally ending up in jail for raping someone. It only takes a moment to check.
4. Yes, verbally asking for consent isn’t the most common protocol, but it is far from unheard of. It does not ruin the moment, it only makes it hotter. And if you’re worried that it’s uncommon…help us make it more common. Rape is scary. Mutual respect and consent is sexy. But we live in a backwards world that leads us to believe rape is sexy and consent is a pain. (Read this http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)
You seem like a well-meaning person, but don’t kid yourself into thinking that what a rapist does could be anything but his own fault. There are many times when the victim even DOES verbally say no and the rapist STILL tries to make a case that he could tell she really wanted it. And a lot of times, they get away with it. You say that you have a family member who was raped. Wouldn’t you want to protect other people from the pain he/she went through? Wouldn’t you want to make 100% sure that you’re not causing someone that pain? That’s all asking for consent is. Making 100% sure. When you consider the consequences, it’s not much to ask.
2:06 pm
Oh, and by the way, asking for verbal consent isn’t awkward at all. Try it sometime. Trust me, people are turned on by the idea that their partner respects them enough to care whether or not they actually want them.
Your partner only wanting to “get his” while not caring whether or not you even want him? Not sexy at all.
If he goes so far as to make it clear that he is ASKING for your consent, and actually seems to care about the answer? That’s a huge turn-on for the vast majority of people.
2:07 pm
…not to mention, you’ll probably feel like a stud when you ask if she’s sure she wants to and she says “hell yeah.” Sorry ’bout the multiple posts, I keep thinking of more things.
2:32 pm
@ LSP O.K. fine I will ask for verbal consent next time. But it is important to make the distinction between the goodness of asking for verbal consent and the absurdity of saying that men who don’t ask for verbal consent are rapists. That would create far too many rapists and far too many confused rape victims. LSP is wrong in comparing those who don’t request permission to use another persons credit card to those who don’t seek verbal consent. Our culture doesn’t view sex as transactional, rather we view sex as relational.
I’ve used this argument before and I’ll do it again. Sex is like sharing food with your roommates. You don’t always clearly delineate what your roommate can and cannot eat but you expect them to proceed with caution and they expect you to make your boundaries clear. You could of course make a chart that would make the boundaries fucking crystal clear, but people just don’t want to do that. By the way isn’t this really an empirical argument, I mean isn’t it important what women want their lovers to do. If women prefer men to not ask and just proceed with caution and be empathic shouldn’t we respect that?
2:59 pm
Banyan, I never said that all men who don’t ask for verbal consent are rapists. All men who have sex with a woman AGAINST HER WILL are rapists. If you don’t ask, you’re not sure.
Never, ever, use that leftover food argument again. It’s extremely insulting. If you think someone’s sexuality is no more important than a tupperware full of linguine in the fridge, you need to start respecting your partners more.
For instance, do you think this is acceptable?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_are_sleeping_and_your_partner_is_constantly_waking_you_up_by_sexually_manipulating_your_body_is_that_sexual_abuse
How on earth do you know “if women prefer men not to ask”?? The only way you know is if you ask THAT PARTICULAR PERSON what THEY want. Now, if you two have a clear and explicit agreement as to what consent means between the two of you, go for it. Tell your partner, “Honey, if this, this, and this is going on…is it okay if I go right ahead and have sex with you?” Lots of people act out fantasies, and that’s totally okay, as long as people CLEARLY communicate beforehand and know their “safe phrases” and “signals” are. In all seriousness, you might want to do some research in the BDSM community (or read Savage Love) and see that there are very clear rules for how you set boundaries and establish consent…
Also, did you read Wren’s account of her rape above? What do you have to say about it? Have you learned anything about how hard it can be to say no?
3:28 pm
Well, until you provide, some empirical data which supports the claim that women prefer giving verbal consent over non-verbal consent, I must remain agnostic. I’m inclined to believe that the right thing to do is to not seek verbal consent for foreplay and to seek verbal consent for intercourse in my own personal sex life. The women that I have been with would be weirded out if I asked permission to go down on them. I trust that I will be able to discern whether she is feeling what I’m doing and that she will communicate either verbally or non-verbally her wishes. I think this is the way men who don’t have any desire to rape women have had sex with women for a long time, and I reject any one-size-fits-all top-down approach to relating to women in the bedroom.
5:25 pm
@Banyan–it’s really not about what people “prefer” per se…it is what is about safe and respectful.
Chances are, non-verbal for foreplay and verbal for sex is *probably* fine… I emphasize probably, because everyone is different. It also depends on how heavy the foreplay is. I have definitely had encounters where the guy’s idea of “foreplay” is to try to push as many boundaries as he can, and it’s not fun…I want to enjoy the experience, and if he’s trying to “steal a base,” I have to be on my guard instead of getting lost in the moment. (Needless to say, those encounters didn’t go anywhere!)
Really??? Women would be “weirded out” if you asked to have oral sex on them? Honestly, I’m surprised…oral sex is sex to a lot of people, so that’s probably one where you should ask, because someone really could be upset about that if they weren’t prepared for it.
And, of course if you’re in a relationship with someone, you can discuss what you like in the bedroom. If, between the two of you, oral sex is always open-season, that’s fine if you both communicate that you’re okay with that.
2:39 am
I know that I’m coming late to this thread, but I read a comment by JD that really struck me:
“If it’s not such a traumatic experience that you would be affected by it”
If an experience is traumatic enough, someone may not realize it immediately. I have not been raped, but I am dealing with PTSD following my service in Iraq. When I returned home, I felt fine, and I seemed like a normal 22 year old guy. A year later, I began having nightmares and recalling repressed memories. I began abusing drugs and alcohol, and watched my life fall apart around me for the next four years, the entire time denying that I was affected by my experiences.
It wasn’t until someone very close to me, herself a victim of “traditional rape,” sat me down, and shared with me the exact same feelings that I was having that I realized that I had PTSD. The thing is, her experiences seem so much more traumatizing than mine.
My point is that you cannot begin to imagine how something that might not appear traumatizing to you can be traumatizing. I hope that you never have to experience something that is so horrible, but don’t minimize something that happens based on how someone perceives it or appears to perceive it in the immediate aftermath.