Rape Cartoons by the Real World D.C.‘s Andrew Woods
Last night on the premiere of MTV's The Real World D.C., eccentric housemate Andrew Woods admitted that he had been fired from his college newspaper for drawing cartoons that were "purposely trying to offend women and lesbians." Lying is kind of Andrew's "thing," so it's unclear whether Woods' editors actually gave him the boot. But Woods' cartoons about alcohol-assisted sexual assault, pedophilia, and nonconsenual anal sex? Those are real real.
Woods was plucked for reality television stardom as an undergraduate at Colorado State University-Denver. There, he served as cartoonist for student newspaper The Rocky Mountain Collegian from as early as December of 2008 to at least March of 2009 (according to the paper's online archives). Over the course of his career there, Woods drew a comic strip called "Repeat/Delete," which often featured a cartoon version of himself getting involved in various sexual misadventures—like, you know, sexually assaulting women. Let's take a look at Woods' oeuvre:
Hmm. Yes. In this strip, we see Woods' cartoon persona admitting to sexually assaulting an intoxicated woman. It's funny, because Woods is implicating himself as a lecherous buffoon, but it's not funny, because this actually happens to women.
Ah. I see. In this work, Woods' persona takes the form of a pedophile. It's funny because it's . . . hopefully untrue.
His masterpiece. Who could forget the edgy brilliance of "wrong hole"?
Here, Woods assumes his Christopher Walkenesque "skeezy dude" accessories in order to advise students how to seduce women. In this edition of "Andrew's Can Do's," Woods suggest that students "funnel some cheap vodka into half a bottle of sparkling cider . . . as long as it looks like Champagne, she'll drink it!" Woods assumed this character's signature robe and wineglass in his Real World audition tape (hoto above).
In this strip, Andrew thinks that a girl with a pudgy tummy is hot, prompting his friend to declare him "sick." It's funny because girls with fat tummies are gross. This, coming from someone who was instantly declared a virgin when he entered the Real World house last summer.
But what did his contemporaries think?
In his time at the paper, Woods was criticized for his sophomoric humor, grammatical errors, and depictions of sexual assault. One female student wrote that Woods' column "has depicted women as helpless, stupid and incapable of successful relationships"; another student responded that the women criticizing Woods should stop talking.
Thanks to his stint on the Real World, Woods is prepared to silence all the haters. In the premier episode, Woods tells new housemate (and insta-crush) Emily that he's a cartoonist, and that he's intent on getting some of his work published in the District—"maybe in the Washington Post." Close. Woods ended up interning for the Washington Times, where Woods' signature illustrated rape jokes apparently didn't make the cut. For Woods' work with the paper, he stuck to less controversial territory: an editorial cartoon [PDF] featuring Americans being boiled alive in a bubbling cauldron of national debt.
2:23 pm
Gee, lighten up. Like anything that college-- college!-- kid wrote is worse than what one would see in Maxim, or hell, the Onion.
2:25 pm
that guy is the worst, I want my name back
3:00 pm
What is painfully obvious is that Andrew is taking lessons from the sexist shit that is "The Pick-Up Artist" ...
http://www.vh1.com/shows/the_pickup_artist/season_1/series.jhtml
It's all there: wearing something that's weird/distinctive; being ambiguously cruel to your "target" ...
4:36 pm
Bob, when you have a 15% risk of being raped or sexually assaulted in your lifetime - the way women in America do - come back and we'll talk.
Until then, you don't get to decide whether rape jokes are funny or not.
4:56 pm
That's the problem Bob. Guys do not get this "humor" is highly offensive to women. It *is* everywhere--Judd Apatow movies, Maxim, the Onion, etc. That doesn't make it anymore right, acceptable or clever. Welcome to rape culture. See! Put more alcohol in her drink so she can't consent! Get her drunk! Rape her and she'll forget in the morning! So.effing.funny. You don't see how this is offensive? Thanks for contributing to the status quo.
6:05 pm
Most of these cartoons are tasteless and unfunny, but I don't buy "this really happens to women, so it's not funny" as a critique. Most dark humor is about things that "really happen" to somebody; otherwise it wouldn't be very dark. There are lots of jokes out there about cancer, getting fired, racism going to jail, the U.S. torturing people, and so on. Such a joke isn't necessarily funny to someone who has experienced one of those things, or has a knee-jerk reaction to hearing about it, but we don't say for that reason that jokes like that should be banned. It would be absurd to say jokes can only deal with things that are "funny" when they happen in real life -- what would be left? Cats riding on roombas?
When a joke deals with a dark topic, its funniness depends on whether the joker has developed a persona that fits the material, and the grace and skill which which they tell the joke. It does NOT depend on whether the topic is light and cheerful.
"Bob, when you have a 15% risk of being raped or sexually assaulted in your lifetime – the way women in America do – come back and we’ll talk." Everyone on earth has a %100 risk of dying someday; some of the funniest jokes are about death. Of course the two things aren't the same, since death is inevitable but rape should be prevented. And I'm not saying everyone should "lighten up" about Woods' crappy cartoons. I am saying that funny rape jokes are funny, unfunny ones aren't.
7:13 pm
Just to nit-pick, Colorado State University-Denver does not exist. CSU is in Fort Collins.
And the dude's a tool.
7:26 pm
I do personally find some rape jokes funny. Reactions to jokes are often very personal, of course, so they will vary person to person. But personally, I don't find this particular rape joke funny because it depicts such a common thing to happen to women on college campuses.
The joke here is in the comic strip's "edginess"; the punchline is in the absurdity of the fact that a guy would use "she was drunk" as an excuse for sexually assaulting her. If you look at campus rape statistics, however, that position is not extreme at all; alcohol-assisted sexual assault is actually quite common on college campuses. So what Woods gives us is a pretty standard depiction of campus sexual assault, but there's no added "funny" there to make it a joke. It's just what happens to women.
Compare that to the Onion headline, "Raped Environment Led Polluters On, Defense Attorneys Argue." This joke takes a common situation for sexual assault victims (people arguing that the rape was her fault) and reveals the absurdity of that scenario by placing it in a new context. Now that's a rape joke.
People who favor the "but it's edgy" school of rape comedy might then say that Woods' joke is funny *because* it is offensive; the comic strip may not itself contain any humor, but it's extreme and edgy and therefore funny because people find rape jokes offensive. I do think that the inherent offensiveness in rape jokes plays a part in why the well-crafted ones are so funny---"Raped Environment Led Polluters On, Defense Attorneys Argue" is funny because it's clever while being a little bit taboo. But in jokes that aren't funny, the "edgy" argument is basically just saying that sexual assault of women is inherently funny because it's so awful. I don't buy that. And because this is something that happens to so many women, taking the position that making rape jokes is inherently funny tends to alienate a large portion of your audience.
7:28 pm
(And thanks for the correction, JBob. I've updated the post).
8:34 pm
"Jokes" about the Holocaust, rape, etc are not funny. Put a white guy on stage & have him tell Chris Rock's jokes. Not funny.
Rape "jokes" told by man are inherently not funny. It's like a white man telling jokes about black people. If some woman wants to try a rape joke, go ahead, but odds are, it's not funny.
Yeah, let's laugh about some woman being overpowered & brutally raped by some man. Ha ha ha. Next, how about a joke about some black guy being lynched by the KKK? Ha ha ha. Have you heard the one about the Jewish woman & the Nazi guard? Ha ha ha.
Fucking idiots. Amanda Hess & Emily H are the two biggest idiots here. If either of them had ever been raped, this would not be funny to them. But then again, Amanda Hess loves to ridicule people she sees as different - nothing new here.
Defend some KKK jokes about lynching black men. Defend some jokes about Jewish people & Nazi guards. What's the diff between that & defending "jokes" about women being raped.
It used to be unbelievable how stupid people are. Now, I just shake my head at it.
Well, back to sipping champagne. Bye-bye douche bags.
8:35 pm
Just another example of Amanda Hess ridiculing people unlike her - if she had been raped, none of this would be so fucking hilarious. But she hasn't, so it's hilarious to her. Fucking douche bag.
9:19 pm
Comrade - what the hell are you talking about? Amanda isn't ridiculing rape victims! Do you not understand the post? You do realize when she says "It's funny because..." that she's being sarcastic, right?
And read her comment at #8. Jeez dude.
4:25 pm
" Anne December 31st, 2009
4:36 pm
#4
Bob, when you have a 15% risk of being raped or sexually assaulted in your lifetime – the way women in America do – come back and we’ll talk.
Until then, you don’t get to decide whether rape jokes are funny or not"
Wow, anyone ever tell you that you take yourself way too seriously?
I guess that they don't get to decide that without your permission, as well?
a) everyone is free to decide whatever they want to decide. It's called "free will". You may have heard of it, it's not just for women.
b) who says that men can't get raped, have no serious chance of getting raped? Even if it's 1% that's not serious enough for you?
I personally think this whole discussion, while not necessarily "funny", certainly brings up some real issues. Like what makes women think that they have the right to decide what is and isn't "humor" for *everyone*? what is and what isn't acceptable, or "in good taste"?
You have an opinion, fine. But until your opinion actually rules the day? You're no more important than anyone else and I for one am tired of hearing a bunch of whiny bitches get up in arms about anything having to do with something they don't like. Fine you don't like it and you think that this guy is a sleazeball. Good for you. Now leave the rest of us alone to our own opinions.
4:39 pm
"It *is* everywhere–Judd Apatow movies, Maxim, the Onion, etc. That doesn’t make it anymore right, acceptable or clever. Welcome to rape culture. See! Put more alcohol in her drink so she can’t consent! Get her drunk! Rape her and she’ll forget in the morning! So.effing.funny. You don’t see how this is offensive?"
No, I don't. Maybe you should explain why YOU see it as offensive.
Instead of just labeling it as such and expecting people to not only agree with you but to take whatever position from that point that you think should be taken.
Let me tell you why I don't see it as offensive. One, there are always going to be some people who are going to feel offended or demeaned by anything offensive and demeaning. But exactly why? Because they are stupid and/or hypersensitive or because they have legitimate issues? And in any case should we kowtow to their feelings in spite of the facts? Let's take an extreme case as a starting point. Suppose the guy had been making jokes about child-rape. Yep, a legitimate concern, yep, definitely not something that most people find to be funny in most if not all contextes, and even better, definitely something that shouldn't be promoted in any way shape or form given how defenseless children are in the face of such abuse.
But still it's something that should be talked about *because* of this. Willful ignorance and lack of adult discussion is not the answer either.
If this guy is doing one thing if nothing else he's at least drawing attention to the topic of date-rape and acquaintance rape in a forum that many young students will actually pay attention to. Second he's not making fun of women who are raped or putting men who would engage in such rape on a pedastal. You may not have noticed but the guy is the butt of the joke in these strips. How can you think that a strip about a guy being hauled off to jail for getting a woman too drunk to remember the events of the night before, or being interviewed by an investigative reporter as a serial sex-criminal, is somehow "making fun of rape"?
This is just plain silly, even worse, it's classic self-victimization, nothing more than reverse manipulation. I suppose that you think that STD videos also make fun of women? What I primarily disagree with here is the tendency of some to see this as an opportunity for self-empowerment. Fine, you're a woman, and yes, you can get raped and yes, rape is a concern. That doesn't empower you to condemn men for even talking about the topic in a comic-strip. It does NOT empower you to condemn men as a whole. It does not empower you in any way shape or form. It merely gives you a basis for commentary. And without a doubt you demonstrate massive ignorance when you say that men have "little or no" chance of getting raped. Easily I could take the same tack and accuse you of empowering male rape through dismissal and perpetuating ignorance on the issue. But I won't do that. I'm not going to assume that that is what you are doing (though easily it could be described as such) and I'm not going to say that men should worry about you or what you say beyond the implicit assumption that you make that you can decide what is and what is not an acceptable topic for discussion in a public forum. You do not have the right to do that and as a man I seriously resent and disagree with any belief floating around in your head that you do.
4:42 pm
one last thing
in the long run there are pluses and minuses to all perspectives, to all plans of action, to just about everything.
Only stupid people ignore all the pluses and focus only on the minuses. And only stupid people let a single minus rule the day over a long list of pluses. Your fear-mongering leads to exactly that stupidity all over the world, in just about every topic, in spite of all the negative consequences of it. If you think that these strips are somehow "wrong" and shouldn't be published, why can't you see all the wrong in banning them simply because you think so?
That never occurs to you, does it? Doesn't matter at all, does it.
4:44 pm
no what you do is simply demean and dismiss all the people who would suffer from the negative consequences of your opinions and decisions, and declare the negative consequences to them as "their just rewards", and self-righteously go on making the world a better place for you and those you respect according to your own Master Plan.
4:52 pm
ONE more thing
let's just take a look at this "masterpiece" that you seem to hate so much.
It's two panels.
In the first, the guy is lying on top of the woman, we assume that she is not drunk and having "nonconsensual" sex in the first place (and God forbid that women should ever be responsible for what happens to them when they drink, but we'll leave that alone for the moment)
And she looks at him and says these loving, tender words, "wrong hole, you idiot!"
Just how realistic is that?
No "suspension of belief" for you there, is there.
Do you see yourself or anyone that you know (and respect) in this panel? Could that be you? Has that *been* you? Yet we are to believe that your response to it is not tainted by the emotions of your own experiences? That you're being perfectly objectively rational in your analysis here?
Come on, it's an effing comic-strip already. In a college newspaper no less, it's not supposed to be a critically-acclaimed treatise on human sexuality. You expect Freudian brilliance here? How can you not find humor in such banal nonsense? Or can it not be banal simply because you don't think it's funny that a man might attempt to penetrate a woman in her backdoor when he's lying on top of her and she's under a blanket? Seriously this has never happened to you?
I think that not only has it happened to you but you are worried that it will happen again with anyone "lucky" enough to be in that position with you and your real concern is what it says about your sexual partners, past present and future. And you are just striking out in anger and resentment.
5:28 pm
"...I did it without asking because I knew that you would freak."
Is that "art"?
What is "art"?
Should art have no connection to real life, or at least, not the seedy side of "real life"?
Or is it just teenager porn..."rape porn"?
I'm sure that some people find even "rape-porn" to be artistic in some way. You are outraged that they would think hat this is acceptable in any way. I am outraged that you think that you can decide for the rest of us what is and what is not "acceptable". maybe you just ought to admit that there is a fine line between the "outrageous" and the unfunny. It's largely a matter of opinion, but at least you should respect the rights of others to have one of their own, that doesn't agree with yours!
5:33 pm
...besides what is really funny about that strip is that she gets all bent out of shape because some guy that she thinks is good enough to have in her vagina, actually takes a swing at her ass. Just like that she calls him an idiot and hops out of bed and storms out.
Of course this is a strip but surely that hapens in real life too. And you know what? That's FINE. Women have a right to decide how to react. That right does not extend to deciding how OTHERS should react, unless (of course) criminal actions are involved. You make your bed and you lie in it. And women getting pissed off and venting at what guys do, last I checked that formed the basis of much "humor" in articles and strips written by females, and indeed often passes for "wit" and "literature".
5:36 pm
...certainly the basis for many criminal charges :)
6:34 pm
yknow what's funny to me? comics about jf1 getting anally raped. it's freaking hilarious
6:35 pm
cuz hey, the other guy in the strip could forget to give him his reacharound! and humor is subjective, and if I find it funny, it can't be offensive :D
8:52 pm
What's funny is that you still don't get it, maybe even refuse to get it. Whether you find something offensive or not, some people are still going to find it funny. You are reduced to making a PC argument to counter what some find to be true humor at your expense.
So what exactly is your argument? Or are you just showing how being a dick entertains you, literally proving my point?
People like you are the reason that we can't have intelligent discussions. If you don't like what you hear, you either respond with a threat of physical violence or a threat of arrest and/or ostracizement. In any case it's a response based on physical intimidation and force, the irony of which, I am sure, passes right over your low brow. Congratulations on the abuse of sarcasm in an attempt to engage in lowest-common denominator humor. Well done.
9:06 pm
Besides, admit it, trying to make everyone happy all the time is a recipe for self-abuse, and personal disaster. You can't live your own life if you go around always worrying about not pissing-off anyone else. It just irks me to hear these neo-feminists argue that men shouldn't express their true opinions because it upsets them. Then they bitch and moan that men aren't honest, aren't trustworthy. What the hell do they expect to happen?
You want to hear the truth, then you have to be able to handle it. You can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Go back and live with Mummy and Daddy, someone who you aren't going to want to lock up just for being honest with you, if only because they're your own flesh and blood and you can't pretend that you're better than they are.
9:10 pm
...if you can't have a nonjudgemental relationship then don't complain that you can't have an honest relationship. And go right ahead and make all the self-deceiving decisions that you want to make based on all the bullshit that you hear.
Just don't complain when you find out that it's bullshit and that your decisions were based on bullshit. That's your own fault for believing what you were told when it wasn't true.
Right?
...come on, how much of the responsibility for your problems in life can you actually pass off on other people?
9:25 pm
At some point a person has to accept the consequences of their own inadequacies. The problem is that women are eager to deny this and men are eager to *help* them to deny this because they believe that they will have a better chance of getting laid as a result. Men who fall for this trap will find themselves in a situation where they constantly have to help women deny their own faults and deny the consequences of their own weaknesses. They can keep on doing that, that will never stop women from eventually blaming some situation on the man and leaving him high and dry as they run off with some other guy. Which they will do, eventually, and at that point the man must face a big choice. Either to accept responsibility for *that* situation or to just "lose it" and try to make the woman pay for what she has just done.
You keep bullshitting yourself about what women do and how they think and sooner or later you will end up holding a gun to your head and asking yourself just how much it will hurt if you go ahead and pull the trigger. That is how much bullshit a woman will talk as she tries to make her life better at the expense of all around her. Even her girlfriends. It never fails that their problems are never their own. It's always what someone else has done to them.
Men, on the other hand, have to face that reality on a daily basis, that ultimately they are responsible for their own problems. Simply because they can't just pour themselves into a slinky dress, walk into a bar and start a new life with a new man with the wink of an eye and a smile. Well at least most men can't, especially the ones with a good grip on Reality.
How can you expect men and women to see the same thing the same way on a consistent basis? It's not possible. No more than blacks and whites see racism the same way. We are just different people, our experiences are different, our histories, our opinions, our thoughts...our capabilities. Our lives. To expect someone who is not like you to see something the same way that you see it, is to think that the entire world is coldly rationally objective and that is just not rational. Everything comes down to what clique you're in which is the basis of this entire article not to mention this womans' blog.
9:27 pm
And let me ask you one last question. Do you really think that a white man gives a hill of beans if a black woman thinks that something is sexist and racist, when he thinks that it's funny?
Why would he even care what she thinks?
9:40 pm
I'm glad this forum has become a place for you to express what clearly are long and deep issues you have with gender jf1.
There's to much to really answer everything I think you got wrong, but I'll touch on a few.
I think the point about Andrew's cartoons about whether they are objectively offensive or not is missing the point. You are correct in saying that a politically correct culture can became overbearing because its really difficult many things of value that will not offend someone.
With that in mind, what I think the really valid criticism of Andrew Wood's cartoon is that they function as neither a strong critique of PC culture nor the situations they depict. Really, I think they are purposely trying to offend people to fulfill some hope by Andrew to be edgy and anti-PC. When are purposely trying to offend people for the sake of offending them rather than perhaps upending some belief you think is invalid, I think it is disingenuous to then argue that those people are stuck up and just trying to be political correct.
I am trying to avoid going to long, but I think a really good example of this distinction is between the shows Chapelle's Show and Mind of Mercia. Chapelle certainly did many things on his show that were certainly politically incorrect, but they served the purpose of breaking down or ridiculing racial stereotypes. Mercia on the other hand did not seem to have a goal other than trying to get you to appreciate how he was fighting political correctness by reviving stereotypes.
On some of your general gender arguments, I think the point is that on a macro-level women face a series of barriers that are generally tougher than the ones men face. I think this forum and others is not just a place for women to complain, but rather confront and constructively deal with these barriers.
On this same point, I think you misunderstand the sense of external blame that these are other articles are arguing exist. These cultural forces function in a very concrete way a lot of the time, which is why for example we are discussing a specific cartoon rather than the concept of rape cartoons.
9:41 pm
LOL. Thanks for the MANsplanations, jf1. Our teensy li'l girlybrainz are just so much better edumacated now!
10:04 pm
Alright just one more post to add another thought on jg1.
I think on some level you argument about being offended and people arguing other shouldn't do things based if they are offensive boils down to a real sort of sophomoric relativism. I do not think people should advocate the mass killing of DC residents because if this is an idea that if taken seriously would lead to real substantive harm to people. Similarly, I think that Andrew's comics although probably have a really marginal effect by themselves, represent a thought process and advocate a belief that can and is hurting women in the real world (pun intended).
I think arguing against this means you believe one of a few things. 1. These cartoons do not advocate a belief that is destructive to women. 2. Or that somehow that protecting the ability of people to say offensive and destructive things is outweigh its cost. Clearly, I think you are emphasizing the anti-PC part of this, but I think the net effect on people is what's more important. I think it is difficult to really ground the broader anti-PC in specific examples. Why should people not also condemn people they believe are promoting destructive stereotypes that have real substantive effects? The point of free speech and the power of the open subjective society we have is that people like Andrew can promote whatever damaging terrible things they want, but people have an equal right to use their own speech to condemn and attack it.
10:23 pm
"Or that somehow that protecting the ability of people to say offensive and destructive things is outweigh its cost."
It has to be because the bottom line is that we have a simple choice. Either accept that people have opinions that differ and respect those opinions in and of themselves if no further than to tolerate their existence, or take some sort of proactive response which punishes them for having those opinions not to mention having the nerve to express them in public. It is that simple. All arguments eventually reduce to this.
However if the latter choice becomes acceptable then we not only have a fundamental lack of trust between people which in and of itself becomes a rationalization for even further acts along those lines (certainly on the side that is doing the punishing), but we also begin to promote people based on their "political correctness", with disastrous consequences in terms of their mental and physical fitness for the job in question. PC will eventually become the death of any society as it struggles harder and harder to disassociate that society from reality all with disastrous consequences when it inevitably fails. We cannot survive an extended series of attacks by lions by insisting that all humans think of them as cute little kitty-cats. You can sugar-coat that any way that you want, but that's the bottom line. Likewise we cannot survive the domestic cancer of political correctness by thinking of it as the normal, indeed the desired, action of healthy cells.
Projecting ones own opinion into the minds of others? This is sheer self-empowering delusion. This is not healthy socially-constructive behavior. Likewise for projecting responsibility for the actions of one group onto another group, and the same for denying responsibility for ones own life based on the actions of others. And we men are simply engaging in self-destructive behavior by willingly, even eagerly, assisting delusional women in this process. We are the Catholics who help the Nazis round up and kill the Jews. But we are not Nazis either, and eventually the Nazis will come for us, simply because we are Catholic. It all comes down to fundamental questions of what does it mean to be a man or a woman, and women simply have to accept that men are not women...nor should they either want to be women, or try to be women. Especially when women want men to be men at their convenience, and then want men to be women also at their convenience. Any rational thinker can see how that will turn out. Such gender schizophrenia and logical hypocrisy can have only one result.
10:32 pm
The bottom line is that women have to accept, tolerate and even encourage men to be men, just like men have to do the same for women. We need each other. We cannot advance as a species by tearing down one side at the expense of the other. And that means that women have to tolerate and even encourage men to say and do things that they don't like, and vice-versa.
That's a huge difference from actually causing "destructive things" to happen to women. It's a matter of women waking up and realizing that they are not going to die tomorrow because someone makes a comic strip about "unauthorized" anal sex with a woman, and to stop taking it as a life or death matter. So no, I don't think that I am being "sophomoric" about it. I think that it is funny because it epitomizes the difference between men and women, and the way that men and women handle sexual situations and desires with great differences and often sudden change of heart. It is one of the great ironies of life that a woman can go from wanting to have sex with a man one minute and then wanting nothing to do with him (or professing so) the next, and I'm sorry if you don't see that in that particular strip.
Likewise beyond that I don't see this strip as having a "destructive" effect on women. I don't see the presence or absence of this strip as being responsible for sexual assaults or demeaning behavior towards women, and yet again I must point out that you are saying this, very likely, out of some sense that it will get you "in" with women. But hey you think that my view on it is "sophomoric" and you're entitled to my opinion. I just hope that my life isn't destroyed as a result. If it is, I won't blame you though.
10:35 pm
"But hey you think that my view on it is “sophomoric” and you’re entitled to my opinion. "
...sorry, but then surely you knew what I meant without my having to tell you ;)
If not, it's not that my message was confusing, you simply didn't understand it the way that I meant it, which is of course your fault for even thinking that in the first place...how could you ever have thought that I meant otherwise? ;)
10:36 pm
"LOL. Thanks for the MANsplanations, jf1. Our teensy li’l girlybrainz are just so much better edumacated now!"
You're welcome. As Neil Armstrong would say, "one small step forward for women, one giant leap forward for mankind".
10:45 pm
So much of our opinions come down to our values, and our knowledge, and what we consider to be important and what isn't.
You start putting the desired answers above logic not to mention the answers that come out of logic, and you can expect that your opinions will become more and more illogical. Thats fine as long as you use your opinions as a litmus test, just throw them out there and see who runs and who sticks around saying "I *know*" and "you're so right!", and you find a group of people who share your opinions, form a support-group, and you all stick together and abuse the rest of society for your own benefit.
It's just as wrong when women do it to men for not agreeing with them, as it is when men do it to women for not agreeing with them. Objectification and subhumanization works both ways as a tool for control of the minority by the majority. There's no sexism in this. Just a matter of realizing and admitting it. It's a simple matter of not being a goddam hypocrite.
10:48 pm
and God help men when women not only demand that we agree with their *opinions* but the *logic* and the *assumptions* behind their opinions.
And God help us all when men do that too.
That is why the easiest and best way to expose a hypocrite is just to ask them to explain their opinions. Keep prodding their assumptions and eventually their hypocrisy will come raging out in full force.
10:55 pm
Now having said that let me reply to this more fully:
"I think arguing against this means you believe one of a few things. 1. These cartoons do not advocate a belief that is destructive to women. 2. Or that somehow that protecting the ability of people to say offensive and destructive things is outweigh its cost. Clearly, I think you are emphasizing the anti-PC part of this, but I think the net effect on people is what’s more important."
I don't think that these cartons actually advocate anything. If you look at them it's pretty hard to see that they actually "advocate" anything. They touch on a subject in a way which clearly has caused a series of knee-jerk reactions, especially unfounded assumptions.
And as I said before, I don't see how a strip with the central character under intense scrutiny from an investigative reporter team, being put into a police car in handcuffs and having a woman storm out of his bedroom is in any way "advocating" the opinions or the statements of the central character. You'd have to be a complete nutjob to think that. If anything the central character himself is the joke.
But as the general subject of the strips is so un-PC, we're not even allowed to think of them in that way. We're supposed to, we MUST, condemn them outright in no uncertain terms, focusing on that general subject and decrying both it and the supposed consequences of even talking about it.
As if...talking about child-rape means that children are going to get raped? Or NOT talking about it means that children aren't going to get raped?
Do you see where that "logic" gets us?
11:01 pm
"Clearly, I think you are emphasizing the anti-PC part of this, but I think the net effect on people is what’s more important.”"
...what do you think that I've been talking about all this time? You're missing the forest for the trees? Are you even seeing the trees as *trees* and not a massive bamboo-stand?
What exactly do you think "the net effect on people" of these strips actually is? Whatever you say that it is, I could jus tas easily say (as I did above) that the "net effect" is to get people to actually *think* about a "taboo" subject. Un-PC subjects, "subjects in poor taste", yet still important.
Subjects that we don't talk about enough.
And very likely, with the "net effect" that some women actually find themselves in compromising positions with complete assholes that they ASSUME are nice, harmless guys. Of course since they actually are "guys" and not really "women", eventually they'll get screwed by some chick anyway. Just like the woman will, since, screwing women is the main reason that guys exist in the first place. Just like the main reason that women exist is to get screwed by guys.
Or is that too unPC for me to say as well?
Or do you have trouble with the "consequences" and the "net effect" of that statement?
11:09 pm
...you try to bury all the sordid, nasty, fetid sour truths of this world under a bed of political-correctness, and you will find that they reach up through that bed and fulfill their natural roles. That's just how life is. Denying this is just delaying the inevitable and setting yourself up for a hard fall when it happens. There once was a Chinese emperor who thought that it would be a great idea to kill all the flies in his kingdom. The ensuing famine convinced him otherwise. Now we have rulers in the Middle East who think that it is a great idea to kill all the pigs, to stop the spread of "swine flu". Unfortunately the penalty of ignorance and illogic is not only paid by the ignorant and the illogical. Problems may start with them, but the end results spread far and wide. You let some stupid bitch on the rag get on your case and talk you into doing something stupid on a regular basis, not only will you pay the price, but a lot of other innocent people will too. And then she'll blame it all on you. Sexism works both ways.
11:20 pm
...look...hypocrisy, embodied in PC and in other ways especially our government, is exactly why the Pershing Park debacle happened in the first place, not to mention why it is still an ongoing debacle, in spite of the recent settlement with some of the arrested citizens.
When what is and what is not "the right thing to do" depends just as much on who is deciding as much as who suffers as a result? When "the net effect" is a political calculation?
How can you expect these decisions to not be distorted in favor of the majority -whatever that is- against the minority?
What exactly do you think makes the weight of each factor in the calculation not to mention the decision itself?
You speak about "net effects". Don't you see that those are entirely in the eyes of the beholder? You put the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and those "net effects" are going to be pretty bad for you. You think that the people making the decision about that will agree with you?
11:33 pm
I'll keep it short in order try not to set you off to much more, plus I think you did answer of other things I wrote yet.
"Unfortunately the penalty of ignorance and illogic is not only paid by the ignorant and the illogical. Problems may start with them, but the end results spread far and wide."
I think the problem is that your critique of political correctness is flawed because it outright contradicts itself. The point of advocating that speech is offensive and wrong is not to shut down people's ability to advocate what they want, but rather to stamp out ignorance and 'illogic' as you put it. Why can't feminists and others condemn certain speech they belief are destructive just as you condemn political correctness?
"Whatever you say that it is, I could jus tas easily say (as I did above) that the “net effect” is to get people to actually *think* about a “taboo” subject."
I agree, this is actually how I started off my post. The point though is that it is making a point about the taboo rather than just bringing up that those taboos exist and should be discussed.
"But hey you think that my view on it is “sophomoric” and you’re entitled to my opinion."
Was the 'my' a slip?
"Projecting ones own opinion into the minds of others? This is sheer self-empowering delusion. This is not healthy socially-constructive behavior."
It seems like your posts are doing a bit of this.
"The bottom line is that women have to accept, tolerate and even encourage men to be men, just like men have to do the same for women."
I think there is several reasons this is really interesting and wrong. For one, I do not think as a man that making jokes about rape is really something inherent in men or other similar things. Also, I think that encouraging women to be women are you advocating things like men should embrace feminism?
I think after this I'm good for awhile answering, try to respond not in 10 posts.
11:35 pm
"Really, I think they are purposely trying to offend people to fulfill some hope by Andrew to be edgy and anti-PC."
It's just as possible that he *is* antiPC and therefore offends some people. Obviously that's very likely. He would have to be anti-PC in order to draw and submit these strips under his own name, right? Or is that a baseless assumption?
...how can we differ so much on this one basic question? And yet still find common ground for agreement and mutual respect ;)
"On this same point, I think you misunderstand the sense of external blame that these are other articles are arguing exist. These cultural forces function in a very concrete way a lot of the time, which is why for example we are discussing a specific cartoon rather than the concept of rape cartoons."
...especially as Amanda herself things that some rape jokes are funny...as she said above...
Yes. We know that there are "cultural forces at work". The question is what exactly are the actions that result from these forces, and whether these forces are bad or good, either in a specific way or as "a net effect".
Not only do these things all depend on the observer (as, really, you must admit that as a thinking animal, we each live in our own individual universe, with little if any relation to the universes of the other 6 billion of us) but they also depend on what the observer thinks is happening. It's impossible to separate action from reaction. Humanity is not some neat little laboratory for us to do sociology experiments in. Where do we start on the chain of cause and effect? What is which? We don't even know exactly what is what. We don't know exactly why anyone does what they do. We just know what we think that we understand. The mark of the delusional being is the belief that they know and understand everything. The truly rational being accepts that a lot of things are not known exactly, for what happened in the past, what is happening now and especially what will happen in the future. And for each case, why.
All we really know is that those strips exist, and that some women will get raped in the future, and some women have been raped in the past (and likewise for some men, especially those incarcerated for rape & sexual assault). These things we know as facts for we can lay our hands on them, metaphorically, and see them as such.
And that's why that is such a powerful concept.
And that is why all depends on what we think.
If you think that you know more than that? You will happily leap to larger conclusions. Right or wrong.
11:40 pm
...the first thing that you must learn in the study of logic, is to learn, respect and indeed live the difference between what you think that you know and what you actually do know.
I simply do not have the time or capability to teach the world the difference between thinking that what they think they know is the truth, and restraining themselves to what they actually do know. There are far too many people who do not understand that fundamental concept. Who don't even know what it is. Who think of themselves as rational people. Happily. Partially because they don't know any better, and partially because that is what they want to think of themselves as.
11:50 pm
One of the true marks of insanity is the belief that you or anyone else is a perfectly-rational, objective person. It is however common for people to want to think of themselves as such, due to both the stigma attached to the irrational and the "expert status" of the rational mind.
Mixing in just a dollop of emotion is acceptable because that makes us "human".
But in this is an inherent contradiction. Emotional people cannot be objective and cooly rational, and people who cannot be objective and cooly rational cannot be logical. And in the moment of truth such people will happily pass up being objective and rational and claim that it is better to be emotional as long as ones emotions are inherently "correct". That that somehow makes us better people, and that people who are "cooly objective" are actually the problem. Because they cannot be trusted to make good social value judgments.
Since most people are emotional and not objectively-rational, this places them safely in the majority. But this is the majority of the lowest common denominator.
12:00 am
...so in the end, along the lines of what you said earlier, the question is not one of "edginess" or "political correctness" or "offensive and demeaning opinions", or even "art".
It's a simple matter of inclusion and exclusion, and the methods by which that is accomplished.
But in any case, in the end, one still must decide whether the majority is right or wrong. And that all depends on the values of the observer. In the end, all becomes a value-judgment, based on a series of value-judgments, all with the ends justifying the means. A simple question of which ends justify which means. We do that consciously, we do that subconsciously, we do that instinctively, but in the end, that is what happens. And one of the things that we do very well, and with great pride, is to say that we know what we don't know. What we clearly do not know. What is impossible for us to know. Unless we make the rules. And clearly we make the rules when it comes to our own opinions.
12:11 am
...or we can replace "known facts" with "risks" and "likelihoods" and then start to make assumptions about those and extrapolate logically from there. The end result will be the same as we will simply adjust the assumed probabilities to suit our desired opinions.
Sure ever now and then some of us will swallow hard and accept something which we do not want to believe, in the face of irrefutable facts, but I dare say that for most of us that is not often and we are happy to make our acquaintances pay the price for failing to meet our "expectations". Otherwise known as self-centered assumptions. In that vein one should not be surprised at all that comics such as these strike a powderkeg of female responses and are the target of a blame-game. Surely they can be blamed for rapes on college campuses, and so they are. It is much easier and political palatable than blaming women themselves, or even blaming their rapists.
But what is more logical?
12:19 am
"...but why would they not want to blame their rapists for raping them?"
Simple. That would imply poor decision-making on their part, in putting themselves in a position to be raped, in voluntarily dealing with men who would rape them. Furthermore it would be a damming statement about their lives in general.
They would much prefer to blame men who make stupid sexist jokes, and jokes about rape. As if that somehow makes rape ok, says "yeah man, go ahead and rape her!". Whispers it in the rapists' ears like the devil on the left shoulder. Overpowering all the voices on the right shoulder, if there are any such voices.
The fact is that men decide to do things and they decide to do bad things sometimes, and women sometimes suffer as a result. Unless you can predict the future, you're going to get caught short sometimes. That's life. Some people just can't handle that. They just can't deal with that uncertainty, that looming possibility for disaster, and prefer instead to rail against anything they can identify as a potential source of future problems for them, as if there's a direct connection from the one to the other.
As if such people are actually responsible for these things. Or would be. Too much of a risk to take, I guess, better stomp on their lives first. Better safe than sorry.
12:21 am
Like I said a while back, their hypocrisy always comes out.
11:43 am
anyway I know that that was a lot of commentary but I seriously doubt that anyone is raping women because of some comic-strip.
Do you really think that the KKK was notorious for lynching blacks because of frequent use of the word "nigger"? Perhaps it's a symptom, but I seriously doubt that it's a direct cause, or even an "enabler".
If that's what sexual assault boils down to, we have real issues that go far beyond this comic strip. But I for one doubt that people are that simple, an assumption that many others are happy to make. Because it empowers them, you see? It allows them to use the state security apparatus to harass and persecute the overt acts that they don't like, that are clearly NOT sexual-assaults or physical violence. Then they can point to the sexual-assuls and physical violence and say "but it would be so much worse if we didn't persecute those who make fun of it!"
Did whites making jokes about inner-city drugs and gangs and gang-related killings push the DC murder rate through the roof over the past 10 years? I doubt it. But that very stupidity will result in a waste of resources that could be INTELLIGENTLY used to bring down the crime rate. Is the late-night talk show circuit responsible for all the political nonsense that is going on? Did Tiger Woods have 16 mistresses because of shows like Entourage?
Is the real concern that life actually does imitate art? Well that's an admission that this is actually art, then.
11:49 am
...maybe the real problem is that a lot of these women are just self-righteous bitches, who, if they were men, would go to this guys' house and try to beat the crap out of him.
Maybe the sole difference between you and these guys is that they would do physically and in person what you are trying to do on the Internet. Force someone to respect your views and opinions by punishing them for doing what you think isn't "right". Maybe the real issue here is that these strips are apparently a license for widespread Internet stalking cloaked as PC, and that these people merely personify their own "fears". "Based on what I want to say that you have done I'm afraid that you are going to do something bad to me, so I'm going to do something bad to you first".
Simple hypocrisy.
12:29 pm
Textbook superiority complex. jf1, no one is censoring your hypothetical opinions.
5:39 pm
Hey, what's the matter jf1 or jfc1 or whoever the hell you are? Upset that no one was giving you more than a passing "shut up, douchebag" over at Savage Love so you decided to blow your intellectually insufficient wad all over The Sexist comments too? Is this some elaborate plan to infest all corners of the DC CityPaper commentariat with your "ideas" and "opinions," choking out all dissent thru the crushing weight of your stupidity until finally the editorial staff surrenders and gives you a blog of your very own?
... If that is your plan, fuck me, it has a horrifyingly good chance of working. Brace yourselves, DCites.
7:27 pm
"Upset that no one was giving you more than a passing “shut up, douchebag” over at Savage Love so you decided to blow your intellectually insufficient wad all over The Sexist comments too? Is this some elaborate plan to infest all corners of the DC CityPaper commentariat with your “ideas” and “opinions,” choking out all dissent thru the crushing weight of your stupidity until finally the editorial staff surrenders and gives you a blog of your very own?"
Hm...I hadn't thought of that, but now that you've mentioned it, it's not all that stupid of an idea. I wonder who will take it and run with it.
7:29 pm
"Textbook superiority complex. jf1, no one is censoring your hypothetical opinions."
There are 5 million textbooks out there, dude. Gotta do better than that.
I never said that anyone is censoring my opinions. I said that they punish people who say things that they don't want to hear, not to mention don't want to be said. That's what PC is all about. Retribution for having "improper thoughts", cloaked as social activism.
Funny how the official government response to "social activism" in the Pershing Park case was just to sweep-up everyone within a 100 yard radius, hogtie 'em and dump 'em in a gym LOL
just cutting to the chase, really
7:31 pm
by the way, what do you get if you mix "scientific peer-review" and political-correctness together?
"A history text masquerading as research" LOL
10:18 pm
I went to school with this dick.
I think his cartoons are a problem because he clearly does not respect women. I don't think it's just a joke to him and it reflects his deep disrespect for people in general. I had a job with him where he was always making inappropriate comments towards female coworkers and bosses. He was eventually fired but really should have had disciplinary actions taken out against him for harassment.
Andrew is incredibly rude and made me feel threatened and uncomfortable. Maybe he comes off as a clown on TV, but it's not very funny when he's demeaning you in real life.
It really does upset me that MTV rewarded him by giving him the national spotlight for his unacceptable behavior.
1:03 am
Jf1, if you don't care what anyone else thinks, then what makes you think everyone else cares about your verbal diarrhea? Are you just that much of a special snowflake or what?
4:30 am
"Next, how about a joke about some black guy being lynched by the KKK? Ha ha ha."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfZaSmk_lrE
5:41 am
@Broggly. Now now, that wasn't the KKK per se. Full of win all the same.
2:21 pm
I think people should chill out about his cartoons. It is just humor, everyone has their own taste. If you dont like it then don't read it. Yeah they are about serious topics, but there are a lot of jokes made on serious topics. I like andrew a lot and enjoy his personality and quirkiness. I am a woman and I don't feel disrespected. Gees, everyone is acting as if he is a horrible person. Im sure everyone has made a joke that doesn't "respect" to whom you made it toward. Everyone needs to just get over it and stop bitching.
4:21 pm
This guy creeped me out the second he appeared on the screen. I knew I REALLY disliked him when he took a picture of the girls' breasts instead of their faces... and was even more appalled when the girls laughed it off. I've been an avid watcher of The Real World for a long time (shoot me), and have consistently said I'd get along with everyone on the show... I'd be the "mediator". But this guy... oh my gosh. I'd have to leave the house within an hour of being around him.
4:40 pm
jf1, you're already disproving a stereotype about men and women: that women talk and talk and talk without saying anything. You're proving that men can do it, too! Try to be less verbose and your arguments would be easier to digest.
And the problem with accepting rape jokes is that it continues to make rape a social norm, when it shouldn't be. The argument that women should not be offended by rape jokes because it's simply dark humor seems to also argue that women should not be offended by rape jokes because, hey, rape happens, just accept it. Gross.
6:00 pm
April,
How about the fact that after people protested the topics of his cartoons at our school he responded by publishing cartoons that were even MORE offensive. I believe he even drew one mocking the people protesting him. And keep in mind that the cartoons in this article are only A FEW of this guy's cartoons.
I think it is screwed up that we're sending men the message that they don't have to be respectful of other people and we'll just wink, pat them on the back and put them on The Real World.
Women need to get a clue and start demanding better behavior from men! Sure he might be a funny friend, but would you SERIOUSLY send your daughter on a date with a young man who behaves this way?
6:54 pm
the problem with those who are saying that it's not a big deal is that you have never stepped foot in a rape crisis center and talked to those involved, you haven't read scholarly, proven articles about the implications of sexual assault and the damage that is done which often results in PTSD, where women can be trigged to have panic attacks off of a simple konock at the door because some guy wanted to get his and decided it was worth the pain the woman would go through on a day to day basis, or depression so real and terrifying that it ruins any chance possible at a healthy relationship. sexual assault can be so terrifying to the psyche that some women don't even remember a sexual assault until decades after, when memories finally emerge, or are in such denial that a person would do something so cruel that their minds can't and won't even allow them to realize that what happened to them was indeed rape. when you live in terror for the remainder of your life and understand what sexual assault really does to a person, you can comment. when you've done your reasearch and can truly say there is no harm being done here, you can come back. to all the women saying that you're not offended by this, you should be ashamed of yourselves. do you know how many women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime? those women are your family members, your friends. they might not tell you it occurred to them, and if it were me, i wouldn't either, because you obviously wouldn't have the perspective to see things clearly. take this from someone who's done hours upon hours of research, someone who has talked to victims, rape crisis center directors, and the therapists. you don't deserve to have a voice if there's nothing coming from it.
6:56 pm
one last thing, and i'll leave: medically speaking, even the words, phrases, and pictures in his comics can allow those women who have lived and survived through a sexual assault to have a "trigger," resulting in increased anxiety to the point of fainting, and panic attacks so unbearable the person cannot breathe or function. just what you want to happen to you when you open up the paper, right?
9:23 pm
this guy is creepy. serial killer or rapist in the making.
12:11 am
I think it's funny and smart.
Does that mean I think rape is funny? No.
I like that he is putting stuff out there in a way that makes people talk. You guys don't like his perception because you feel it's dangerous. That's why it's important to talk about it. Not just in serious articles. People can express themselves in a million different ways. It's our first amendment right to.
He is not a creep.
He is not dangerous.
He is just exercising his right to speak his mind.
Read Guts by Chuck Palahniuk, and then freak out. (http://www.seizureandy.com/stuff/guts.html)
Things that shock make people have to talk about difficult issues. You guys are not even trying to see his side or his perspective in writing those comics. You see the reality that the comics demonstrate as preposterous, maybe he does too. Hence, him writing and drawing it.
Make someone else a martyr for your opinions based on Marie Claire and the gossip magazines in the grocery store. All of you defacing him have no right to judge someone you've never met based on comics and a real world episode. Show some humanity.
12:27 am
Oh, and if someone tried to censor me, I would probably put out more offensive comics too. And then I would depict them in the cartoon as well. As offended you are, if you guys talked to him like he was an idiot, I'm sure he didn't take it well. It's a natural human reaction. Art is as important as people make it. And we are all doing an excellent job. So, angry women, keep getting angry. Make a website. Set up protest events. And then get mad that people won't stop talking about him.
He seems like an alright guy. He actually reminds me of a few friends I have. They don't disrespect women. They have good hearts. I don't know for sure if Andrew has a "good heart", but I sure can't speak on if he has a bad one.
Also, even if I met or worked with him, that doesn't constitute really "knowing" someone. I have worked at the same place for 3 years, those assholes know nothing about my personal life and beliefs, but I'm sure they think they do. I just think it's upsetting to see someone judged w/o really being known. You guys don't know his heart and mind, so why judge him on it and call him a creep. I just don't get it. You can hate his comics, but he is not his comics. It's just something he has created.
3:17 am
Monique,
So a guy who was disrespectful towards me and others is on national TV and I'm supposed to just shut up about it because I don't "really know what's in his heart"? Now you're just trying to censor me.
Do you think The Real World producers care "what's in his heart"? No, they found a semi-attractive, photogenic guy to play the role of doofus and will portray him as the misunderstood goofball. Someone on an MTV board mentioned that he grabbed a woman's chest at a house party. What else needs to occur for people to get a clue?
And I don't expect to change much by vocalizing my opinions on him. I can tell he's annoyed/creeped out a lot of people without my help. All I plan to do is spread the message and let what deserves to happen happen.
9:25 am
I'm not trying to censor you. That is ridiculous. I never said you shouldn't be allowed to say what you want. I think it's hypocritical that you don't think he should be able to express himself, but you should be able to express whatever you want.
If how you carry yourself and express yourself offends me, let me vocalize it. Let me say why. I think you should be able to say what you want. But every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Let me react.
I just think with someone so concerned with what one person is saying and how it affects people, that you would show some sort of tact prior to defaming his character.
Example: If I worked with you and thought you carried yourself as a whore and said things that alluded to it, I have every right to call you a whore. Because based off of my observations, that's what I see. If I'm wrong, it's up to you to prove it to me. But I can post my proof online and embarass you. Now, obviously I don't think you're a whore or really anything bad, to be honest. And it's normal to judge, everyone does. The only thing that is upsetting about you is that it seems to me you are promoting a lynch mob mentality. You're spreading a message, but does it need to be spread? What are the consequences for your actions? What about his family and how they are affected? What if he really meant nothing bad about anything he has said and you took it a completely different way (which happens to everyone all the time)?
No, I don't think MTV cares what's in these people's heart. I don't think many people care about him grabbing a woman's chest at a house party. But, really, the only person that really should care about that is that woman. If some asshole grabbed my chest out of nowhere, I can be upset. But for other people to carry my personal vendetta is somewhat ridiculous. Also, my issue with you isn't me trying to say he is not a creep. It's the fact that you could type one million stories that you say happened and this asshole can't even defend himself. I think it's reckless. It's modern day muckraking. It's ugly.
But again, say what you want with reckless abandon. You already are. I believe in the first amendment. But that doesn't mean I think it is decent for you to say what you are, it is only legal.
9:34 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsmk90pWQr4
This whole thing with the article and you guys reminded me of this. Enjoy
12:28 pm
Ignore Comrade Gonzales (commie) jabs and insults. We all know hes a fucking psycho or just plain bipolar. He comments on every thing on this site. One sec its a compliment- the next hes cursing you to hell. Its quite humorous.
7:26 pm
Monique--
andrew did speak for himself. through his comics. there is his voice. now we can have ours.
8:23 pm
Uh... yeah. I had the "wrong hole" thing done to me. It was hilarious. He refused to stop, I was in a lot of pain, he was sheepish, I cried a lot, and we all had a good laugh. So much so that I've been in a committed relationship for two years and I still have nightmares about being violated. Oh, good times. I am so glad that this sadly untalented cartoonist sees such thingsg as hilarious also!
9:02 pm
"Uh… yeah. I had the “wrong hole” thing done to me. It was hilarious. He refused to stop, I was in a lot of pain, he was sheepish, I cried a lot, and we all had a good laugh. So much so that I’ve been in a committed relationship for two years and I still have nightmares about being violated."
...so he raped your bunghole and you laughed about it through your tears?
Your problem is not this cartoon. It's your inability to face, deal with and act on the fact that the guy that you were having sex with was a rapist, specifically a sodomist. If anything, as I said before, this cartoon epitomizes that problem. And indeed the problem of misplaced anger and blame-casting.
9:06 pm
"And the problem with accepting rape jokes is that it continues to make rape a social norm, when it shouldn’t be. "
No, it doesn't.
Again you are twisting the one into the other. And again, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You take one problem, date/acquaintance rape (or some other form of sexual assault), and instead of dealing with *that*, you take out your frustrations and aggressions on an easy target (this fantasy that men who joke about rape in any way are making it socially-acceptable).
Stop avoiding the real issue and deal with the fact that there's a good chance that the guy(s) that you choose to sleep with are dicks and you do not know how to deal with that.
9:17 pm
"The argument that women should not be offended by rape jokes because it’s simply dark humor seems to also argue that women should not be offended by rape jokes because, hey, rape happens, just accept it. Gross."
...well I don't know who is making that argument, but a strawman analysis is not a rational response. I could just as easily say that women get offended by rape jokes because they don't have penises, it's a simple case of penis envy, and that's just how it is, men have cocks and women don't, accept it.
Do you see me saying that as anything other than an example of strawman logic?
But at least it's true, unlike the comment earlier that men joke about rape because there's very little chance that they will get raped. You don't know *what* the odds are that any one man will get raped, and certainly that misses the real reason, that men joke about rape (and other sexual issues) either because they think that it's a funny subject or that it's talked about in a humorous context. Is that so difficult for women to imagine much less to comprehend?
Or are we supposed to only joke about something, find humor in it, because we're directed to by the latest PC communique'?
I think that "it's socially acceptable" logic just reveals more than the OP wants to admit. Is it possible that women find things funny because they've been conditioned to, by whatever background they came from? Is it possible for that to not be the case? But in the long run what is the rationale behind PC other than "if we burn it, no one will think it, or certainly it will be thought of less, and thus fewer people will suffer"?
So you aren't making the people suffer by attempting to control their information and stultify their thought-processes?
Tell me something. How is it "just and moral" for men to force women to wear burquas and to be obedient to them? You don't see how this PC stuff is the virtual equivalent of a burqua for Western men? Where in the Middle East the power is in the purse (where women cannot work or even go to school because men use this as a tool of social control), in the West the power is in the pussy. But trying to force men to do and to think only what you think is acceptable is no different from what these Middle Eastern men are trying to doing to, er, "their" women.
You can only have true freedom by relinquishing all control of others.
9:28 pm
Um, two last things.
One, PTSD is a recognized mental disorder. And it should be treated as such. PTSD manifests itself in many ways. Do we expect the world to change to minimize the stressors for those who suffer from it?
Two, the concept of a "threat" means many different things depending on who is asked to describe it. The whole issue with criminalizing the concept of "threatening behavior" is that it opens the door to any one persons' idea of what someone could feel is a threat. Labeling things as "threats" is PC personified, it says "I don't care if you think that you have the right to do something, I see it as 'threatening' and therefore ***I*** don't think that you should be able to do that, and indeed you should be punished for doing that".
Do you REALLY think that we should live in a world where anyone can have you prosecuted for a crime because *they* think that you ought to be prosecuted? On this, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
You can have an opinion about what is a "threat" and what isn't. But those are "fightin' words" in a court of law. Just like you may think that someone is a bitch or a whore or a nigger, but you actually say that and you're opening a can of worms that may never go back to where it was when you said it. That's the world that we live in today, and we live in that world because women think that it's necessary and there are, unfortunately, certain men who are PW'ed enough to support them. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate "threats" but surely we all have different opinions about what they are.
It doesn't matter what the public thinks is "a threat" or not, or "what should be done about it". All that matters is what a "presiding authority" thinks. And that's another problem with PC. It can be virtually insignificant, or it can go thermonuclear, or anywhere in between. It is, in itself, a loose cannon that all depends on who pulls the trigger that day.
9:31 pm
Add "be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it" to "better safe than sorry" and what do you get?
A lot of people spending a lot of time and money defending themselves from trivial accusations with potentially-serious consequences. And a lot of silly people bitching and moaning that they are "victims" of "whatever". Everything except dealing with their real problems.
9:47 pm
Hey everyone look! Jf1 just used the word "sodomist" in deadly earnest. This marks the first time I've ever seen that happen.
Also, have you (jfc1) read any of Amanda's other posts? Are you saying she *doesn't* deal with "date/acquaintance rape"? Writing a post about some non-funny rape cartoons does not preclude writing *other* posts about actual rape. And how we, as a society, can work to prevent it. One way we can do this is by ceasing to normalize sexual violations thru mediums such as... editorial cartoons?
Also, I think I speak for everyone when I say, in all sincerity, please, PLEASE Shut the Fuck Up.
9:47 pm
...while it is surely true that some men think that rape is funny, to think that all men think so, or even most, is as sexist as it would be for me to say that women are cheating sluts.
And certainly you will never know who thinks what, exactly, until you really get to know them. That's just how it is. Even then, people change. And certainly to think that people who think that these strips are funny either think that rape is funny or don't mind demeaning and offensive humor that exploits women is to make an erroneous assumption. To think that these strips exploit and degrade women, likewise.
It's not the strip that does that, but the people who think the same way as the central character of the strip. And in that light I think that these strips have true value and to ban them is a negative act. Besides you can always find some negative consequence for everything. We cannot live without "negative consequences", someone or something has to suffer as a result of your mere existence on this planet until your dead body returns to the earth, to rot and fuel the growth of others. Even then you will take up space that someone else could use.
9:49 pm
"Also, I think I speak for everyone when I say, in all sincerity, please, PLEASE Shut the Fuck Up."
It's impossible for you to speak for everyone. Get a grip on yourself.
9:54 pm
....
"Also, have you (jfc1) read any of Amanda’s other posts?"
a few
" Are you saying she *doesn’t* deal with “date/acquaintance rape”?"
Do you see me saying that?
"Writing a post about some non-funny rape cartoons does not preclude writing *other* posts about actual rape. And how we, as a society, can work to prevent it."
Of course not.
"One way we can do this is by ceasing to normalize sexual violations thru mediums such as… editorial cartoons?"
But who is saying that cartoons "normalize sexual violations"?
You're seeing these cartoons as far more powerful than they actually are. Do Disney cartoons "normalize" acts of physical violence? Do women who write articles about rape and sexual assault "normalize" rape and sexual assault?
Do you think that the average asshole who engages in date-rape (or who might) really gives a fuck what someone like Amanda says in an article condemning it?
I don't but I DO believe that a woman who reads those articles just MIGHT be conscientious of the possibility BEFORE she gets into a situation where she might get raped. And the same with these strips. I don't see a puritanical, neo-Victorian approach as a solution to this problem. I see it as *perpetuating* the problem just like any dumb-ass abstinence-only program perpetuates the problem of teenage pregnancy.
10:00 pm
...your position is that willful ignorance is good because it might prevent someone from suffering at the hands of someone exposed to negative thoughts.
I think that's outright stupid wishful-thinking. At best. In reality it's outright dangerous. We can make something illegal and sure that will keep someone from suffering as a result. It doesn't mean that we ban any discussion of the illegal act on the same principle. Not to mention that as a society we've already decided that certain people don't have the necessary mental capability to make an intelligent decision about sex in the first place, whether informed or not. Taking that concept to its extreme we would ban any and all discussions about rape anywhere and only prosecutors and judges would know anything about it. But if no one else knows anything about rape, how can anyone know that they've been raped, or that they are in danger of being raped? That's exactly the situation that we had in the Puritan age.
10:05 pm
"“Also, I think I speak for everyone when I say, in all sincerity, please, PLEASE Shut the Fuck Up.”"
...indeed in saying that you personify the very problem in discussion here. You're trying to force me to take your point of view? Very good example of the exact problem. When did telling someone on a public forum to "shut the fuck up" become "socially acceptable" LOL
12:24 am
Monique,
A. I don't think I'm promoting a lynch mob mentality at all. This will probably all go away in a few months and the whole world will just know him as that "lovable oddball" on TV. And I really doubt any of this will get to his family. It's not like this has hit CNN!
B. Where do you work where you can just call someone a "whore" at work and that's OK? That would be ground for termination at 99% of workplaces.
C. You really shouldn't worry about him "defending" himself. He's a national celebrity now and could probably care less what a few dissenters think. I'm not exaggerating about this guy being a grade A jerk. I think if you knew the truth of the matter you'd feel somewhat foolish about wasting the time to come to his defense.
Right now I'm sure all his buddies are slapping him on the back for getting on the Real World and girls are throwing themselves at him because he's a celebrity.
Meanwhile I'm ripping into him on a forum few will see. Poor Andrew.
1:47 am
@Christine
A. You doubt, but you don't know. That's all I'm saying. I just think it funny for someone to be upset at a man for not being careful of what he puts out to the public, you seem to have that same blatant disregard about how the things you say would affect him because what he said makes you angry and it's your OPINION that he is a creep.
B. Really? It's a hypothetical situation. That means not real. Is it plausible, though? Yes. Those things happen. If they didn't, it would be one less thing Human Capital would have to deal with. But do you think 100% of those situations are reported? I can tell you they aren't. You completely ignored the point I was trying to make and you know it. "willful ignorance"
C. I'm not worried about defending him. He and I are not soulmates or best friends. You simply don't get it.
You guys are all mad over some dumb cartoons and because you FEEL he is a creep. Guess what, your perception is your reality and that's it. I don't care if you think he is a creep for the rest of your life. But it's not my perception, and I'm sure a lot of other people disagree with you. I think it's great you are exercising your right to an opinion on a public forum.
However, I talking down to people who disagree with you and saying that just because I disagree with you I'm censoring you is what bothers me. I was just making the point that for people that want this man and men in general to be more mindful of there comments made publicly, you guys are muckraking. I think it's hypocritical. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT WOMEN AND HE MAKES COMMENTS THAT ARE DISRESPECTFUL TO THEM and switch to HE IS A CREEP AND HE IS A DICK. Why would I take you seriously? Help me understand. I'm always down to learn, honestly.
So, AGAIN, I'm not defending him out of loyalty. It's more to just show you another way to look at things. I could do it the way you have been reacting to me and try to make you seem like a moron, because I get the idea that it's where you want to take it. I would rather just have an intelligent debate, if that's okay.
1:49 am
@jf1
you're long-winded. But, I "pick up what you're putting down", so to speak.
1:58 am
Monique,
Okay, that's your opinion and I respect it. I'll just let what I've said stand for itself and agree to disagree with you.
12:49 pm
You know, I was all ready to defend myself to jf1, but it looks like you are a troll in any case. I do apologize to any rape survivors for my lack of a trigger warning. Is it possible to add that on, mod?
****TRIGGER WARNINGG******
Actually, I DID come to realize I was dating a creepy rapist, but it took said creepy rapist (who was one of my five roommates) trying to strangle me the night I tried to end things for me to really realize it. Was I laughing when he raped me (which happened more than once)? Absolutely not. I perhaps should have avoided sarcasm, which is the weakest form of irony. I'm sorry to anyone who didn't understand that.
Someone who can rape someone else is a frightening person, and not someone charming with a lamentable habit.
4:05 am
i love how most of the comments are from those who take these so seriously...the kid is not a tool, he is really just taking everything a guy really wants to say, and he says and does it all. and it's hilarious. common people, have a sense of humor.
p.s. how the eff is this dark humor. this stuff is brightly fanstastic...and for the record. i'm a female!
10:30 am
these cartoons aren't funny for the same reason black face isn't funny. really, that's all that needs to be said. you can have your own opinion and your own humor, but bottom line- hate isn't funny. pretty much everyone agrees that he isn't funny. why even argue anymore?
as for my own opinion- he is literally taking horrible real life situations and drawing cartoons to act them out. how is that humor? am I missing the punch line here? haha and you are sexually assaulted. ta-da. he is doing this just for the shock value. I really wish these attention starved morons would just have their mother tell them they are special and spare us their projected sexually frustrated misogynistic views through poorly rendered cartoons.
1:43 am
I think every one of these comics is funny. You oversensitive pseudo-feminists all need to lighten the hell up. I was molested as a boy. Do I live my life in fear, recoiling at any sort of jokes about it? Nope. You can act like a victim or not. I choose not to. Rock on Andrew, funny stuff.
1:57 am
Mike,
Why do you get to dictate how everyone should feel about sexual assault? If you were in a room filled with other survivors, would you honestly criticize them for not laughing at these jokes the way you would?
It's one thing to not be offended, but you seem unrealistically hard on people who are.
2:03 am
As someone who lives in the Washington area and is a subscriber of the Washington Post I would be ultimately insulted to see his stuff there.
I'm in no means a feminist and far from it. I laugh at them and think they are a joke themselves. I just don't find his comments funny in any manner and think he just needs to crawl under a rock until he builds the proper moral foundation.
1:45 pm
Funny or not, offensive or not, if he wants to be a cartoonist he really needs to learn to draw better.
2:16 pm
Honestly, you people need to calm down. Has anyone ever heard of 4chan.org, offensive-jokes.com, or other offensive/dark humored websites? There is a website all about dead baby jokes! It's in all types of movies and shows in America. Everywhere we look there will be something offensive, so I don't see why Andrew is being ridiculed for it. I think he is humorous in the show and he probably acts the way he does because of how he was raised. The person who wrote this really needs to get a life.
4:42 pm
Am I the only person who doesn't see any cartoons here about rape? Is the logic here that anyone who has been drinking is unable to explicitly give consent, so if said person is involved in anything sexual it's automatically rape? I've not buying that. For one thing, if both male and female were drinking (which is um, somewhat common), and then they have sex, doesn't that mean they're both rape victims? (As well as both being rapists?)
By the way, his cartoons are dumb, and not funny. Par for the course for college boy "humor" -- but I don't see them as being about rape.
9:11 pm
Wow, what a wanker. Hopefully no woman would ever waste her time on this dweeb. I know that if he were the last man on Earth I would rather spend my time with a vibrator than this loser.
7:32 am
Christine, I completely agree with everything you said, because I have a female family member who was sexual harrassed by her step father. I personally don't know "Andrew Woods" at all, but base on his published cartoons, it seems like this creep doesn't care on how other people might react. Or maybe he's just a complete immature sexist idiot that doesn't think before he talks. Christine, it seems like you really dislike him, and I'm sure you have you're reasons, but just don't worry about because sooner or later some female is going to sue him for sexual harrasment. Just look at how he interacts with the women on The Real World, the guy is a goofy creep. And for the record, I'm a guy.
11:06 am
It really doesn't seem like a big deal to me. He's depicting the thoughts of the average college male. Pretending things don't exist, doesn't make them go away. He's just poking a little fun at the way guys think, and girls act.
11:21 am
The only reason why some females are taking his defense is because he has become extremely popular these past 2 weeks. That's it. I bet that if he was never on The Real World those who are taking his side would have bashed him. So please don't have shallow bias views on a person controversial actions just because he's a good looking reality star. It's ridiculous and we all know it.
11:44 am
I attended CSU and saw Andrew's comics every day...as someone said earlier, yes, this kid is a tool. While I realize he purposefully tried to push the envelope as much as he could to appeal to the male student population, there were many offensive themes in his "comics". What's depicted above are excellent examples, but there are many more out there that literally made me think, "What the hell? This seriously was allowed to run?"
And I agree with chillin dude - those who knew him from CSU have attested to this guy's lack of likability, even outside of his unoriginal comics.
7:59 pm
"****TRIGGER WARNINGG******"
Hey look, I'm sorry about what happened to you. I'm not one of those guys who thinks that a woman deserves to be assaulted, and I know damm well that some people hide very well behind a pleasant facade to take advantage of the weak, then play for sympathy (or some other bullshit) when they're exposed. Fucking a' I know that very well. I'm just saying that especially as a man, I'm sick and tired of people associating x with y and then wanting to railroad people who enjoy x in any way, based on the association that they have created between it and y.
It's the same damm thing as saying that women who wear short skirts/get drunk in bars/go to frat parties/meet strange men from the Internet deserve to be raped, just turned the other way around. And I'm flat out sick and tired of stupid people and their stupid bullshit "morals".
That's all I'm saying.
But the fact is that they outnumber the smart people, the non-hypocritical people, and certainly the people who are standing in front of their firing-squads, and we have to deal with this. And it's made even worse when they pass laws and prejudge people based on their stupid bullshit, which fails, being stupid bullshit, and then they rationalize even more draconian laws and prejudice as a result of that. It's never enough because what they want to do isn't the solution in the first place and in spite of each escalation it fails until they have made just about everything illegal and given themselves the power to persecute anyone for anything, and actually begin to do that using the logic that convicting the wrong people for the wrong reasons will actually save at least one victim, and that's worth the price as long as they can use some sort of PC justification for their approach. It becomes a value game, where labeling men as criminals because of what they do that isn't valued by the PC group becomes socially acceptable by that same PC group.
It all sounds great as long as you're part of the PC group.
Someone here said earlier that society forces its morals on the group. Well, no shit, Sherlock. Maybe we should all move back to Kansas wear overalls and long skirts and work the fields and get married off by our parents at 15?
8:02 pm
Some kid is bound to be abducted and killed as a result of some information posted on the Internet. But since they use the Iternet for "socially-acceptable" uses, the concept of shutting down the entire Internet would never fly with them. Were that not the case they would happily push to have the whole damm thing shut down, on the grounds that if just one child were saved it would be a good idea. That's sheer idiocy and that is our problem as a society.
8:46 pm
" Xenu01 January 5th, 2010
12:49 pm
#90
You know, I was all ready to defend myself to jf1, but it looks like you are a troll in any case."
LOL subhumanization is the sincerest form of flattery. It means that you take me seriously enough but can't form a rebuttal on an intellectual level.
"I'm not trying to troll". It may seem that way, but hey. Again, these are just my opinions. Attempt to minimize, trivialize and persecute them if you wish, but in the end, they will still be there and so will you. Until you succeed in making that illegal as well, I guess.
8:50 pm
....it's funny how the hypocrisy always comes out...insults are bad, but name-calling is ok?
And what does it mean to label someone other than to call them a name...what is the significance of labeling other than to pass judgment by association? Labeling serves no other purpose, otherwise it is an empty act.
You could have said, "you seem to be trolling". But no...had to come right out and say, "you look to be trolling".
Isn't possible that it looks like anything else, is it? Like...a man stating his opinions, and explaining them? Naw it couldn't be *that*...he *has* to be trolling!
Yep. And you wonder why so many women get into trouble while wearing short skirts and low-cut dresses.
8:53 pm
So here we have it. Women are so quick to leap to judgment about guys based on so little information, and they rationalize this based on either fear or "social norms" or both.
Yet they want to be free to do and say what they please without social interference. And punish men who interfere with this, in any way, even with indirect "threats".
Yet when women violate the social mores of the men and men "punish" them for it, that's a huge problem.
When you stop being hypocrites you will have fewer problems with men, with women, with everything. Trust me.
8:56 pm
Now read again what I just wrote and see if this makes sense to you now.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/08/oregon.unruly.passenger/index.html
9:08 pm
...having said a lot here so far let me be clear about two other things. I think that everyone has a sense of right and wrong, we all have some overlap and we all have our own individual opinions, we don't agree on everything but we all think that some acts should be punished and some shouldn't, some tolerated and some not. The thing is, it's all about who decides these things, and when. Put 3 different people in the mix and you could easily get a different result, and the fact is that what a judge says may rule in court but the only thing that matters on the street is the opinion of those present. You can argue about right and wrong until you're blue in the face, you can't control who passes judgment on you. Only the environment in which you put yourself. and I think that women compensate for their relative weakness by being extremely careful about where they go and what they do, and being extra-quick to "sound the alarm", as it were. And a lot of guys are caught in that who were literally doing nothing wrong and meaning no harm, but who raised the ire of one woman too many, once too often. And by the same token a lot of guys get away with a lot of shit simply because they were forgiven by a woman.
Guys remember these things, and trust me given the opportunity for some good ol'fashioned "payback"? A lot of them can't help themselves. But for me personally, the idea of fondling a woman, especially a strange woman, simply makes me ill. I have no tolerance for sexual assault or abuse, or even intimidation. And I damm sure have no tolerance for rape.
I just want to make that clear.
I also want to make it clear that in my experience some women do actually enjoy being dominated by men, and enjoy dating men who aren't necessarily "well-restrained". Just like men enjoy dating women who don't have such high "morals" that they are totally predictable and boring. And the fact is that sometimes this gets sloppy.
9:09 pm
doesn't mean that they should be grabbing ass and rubbing up against strange women on the Metro though.
9:15 pm
And the irony is that the guys who do that shit are not going to get suspected of it, accused of it, prosecuted, caught and sent to jail where they can get their ass grabbed and rubbed up on by a bunch of dudes who would have no problem kicking their ass. And that's mainly why they do it.
9:20 pm
jf1 are you writing a college thesis for Andrew Woods? Why are you so eager to defend him? Do you know him personally? Or are you just a fanboy who is clouded with profound ignorance? You're a tool just like him. Get a life!
9:21 pm
And last but not least. I promise "last".
That's how we end up with cases like that young girl in Md just before Christmas, who was snatched from her bedroom at night by some asshole who had two prior rape convictions (one for child-rape), served a grand total of 6 years in jail for them, and was dating her mother just the month before. Then had the balls to plead not guilty for her murder. They would never have found her, frozen and lying in the snow out in some field in Wicomico couny, if her 6 year old sister hadn't woken up and seen him take the 11 year old out in the middle of the night, and described him by name and the clothes that he was wearing, the same clothes that he was wearing when he was arrested the next day.
Someone please tell me how thisfuckhead was still walking the streets and dating single mothers with two convictions for rape, one in Delaware and one in Maryland, within the past 10 years. You answer that, you go a long way towards solving this issue.
9:46 pm
I wish there was an ignore button on this site, so I can put this troll on ignore. He's flooding this forum with his stupidity.
6:27 pm
Wow, someone who multiple posts even more than I do. And, he's a total douchebag! Yay!
Hey, jf1, can you play "Melancholy Baby?" I'm only asking because I wish to encourage you in your manliness.
7:39 pm
I love Andrew I love Andrew I love Andrew!
12:52 pm
I am currently attending CSU, and let me just say that Andrew Woods is not the nice goofy person you might think he is. I took two art classes with him, and he was extremely disrespectful to both the males and females students. There was this very short guy in our class, about 5,1, and Andrew had the audacity to call him a midget on several occasions. This guy is a freaking scumbag. I can't believe MTV made him into a reality star. He doesn't deserve it...
4:41 am
The Pickup Artist is not sexist in any way... get real Anna....
4:14 pm
Has anyone ever thought Andrew's cartoons are meant to be satirical?