Sexist Comments of the Week: When Feminists and MRAs Agree
Last week, the Sexist tackled a couple of issues of particular interest to men.
First, with the help of my Sexist Beatdown partner-in-crime Sady Doyle: a discussion about why men don't recognize themselves as victims of sexual assault, and instead dream up hilarious feline metaphors ("cheetahs"!) in order to discuss the phenomenon of predatory women. Then: a follow-up post on how we use anatomy to justify assaults against men (hint: an erection does not equal consent).
The examination of sexual assaults against men got an interesting response from some feminist commenters over on Sady's blog, Tiger Beatdown (Yes! This is a special guest edition of Sexist Comments of the Week!) Namely: Don't feed the MRA's!
MRAs, for the uninitiated, is shorthand for "Men's Rights Activists." These guys are kind of like feminists, only instead of focusing on reproductive rights, objectification of women, and sexual assault, they're more concerned with other systems of oppression—like divorce court, the Selective Service, and male circumcision. Because—say it with me—the patriarchy oppresses men too, there's no reason that MRA's and feminists shouldn't get along. Except for one minor detail: MRA's tend to believe that feminism is the root of most of these problems that affect men, and we tend to see that's pretty much bullshit.
The unfortunate result of that divide is that feminists have sometimes discounted important issues to our movement—like violence and sexual assault against men—by relegating their discussion to the MRA community, where the issues can sometimes take on . . . interesting twists.
Kristyn wrote:
I think this article is very, very relevant, and totally true, but at the same time it definitely borders on the "fodder for MRAs" territory.
"See, you lying whore, you weren’t raped because WOMEN RAPE MEN!!! Like, ALL THE TIME!!! But men are just TOO AFRAID to say so because THE WOMEN have BULLIED THEM and WE ARE SO SCAARED like TIGER who got beaten BY A GOLF CLUB!!!! Who’s to say you horrible cheetahwomen aren’t going to HIT US with GOLF CLUBS because you HAVE MORE POWER blah blah blah blah WHITE GUYS ARE THE MOST OPPRESSED PEOPLE EVER blah blah people are too PC blah blah blah."
. . . So how can we talk about this type of thing WITHOUT breeding women-hating assholes who think all lady-people are sexually manipulative golf-club-wielding animal metaphors?
Helen added:
Further to what Kristyn said—Yes, and the legal system is going to take this meme and run with it re. proving any allegation of rape.
“M’lud. I put it to you that not only did Ms Z totally ask for whatever was coming to her by getting in a car with the defendant, but that she was planning to rape him.
Happy days.
Sady drafted a really well-reasoned and important response to those criticisms. I wanted to reproduce her thoughts here, because she really summed up my thoughts on this issue:
If we refuse to say things—things that we know to be true—because some MRA or whoever could take them and twist them into untruth, then we’re letting the opposition determine the terms of the debate for us. A particularly fringey and known-to-be-nuts variety of the opposition, at that.
This is actually something that drives me a wee bit up the wall, about feminist conversations: sometimes I’m afraid we oversimplify certain principles, or refuse to say certain things, because the actual complexities or truths at hand don’t feel “safe” or in line with our predetermined talking points and agreed-upon theories. Whereas it’s precisely those complexities and uncomfortable truths we should be focusing on, really, because that’s where we need to improve our understandings. We need to go out beyond the edges of what we already understand and feel comfortable with, in order to find anything new to say.
It seems like every time I write about some not-so-admirable thing that ladies do, someone weighs in to say that I’m not presenting the gender positively enough and/or giving aid to the enemy. And I don’t shitting care about that, to be totally blunt. For one, I don’t think The Enemy reads Tiger Beatdown, and for two, I care about writing the truth, because I don’t feel feminism is served or ever can be served by ignoring the truth and instead telling each other whatever is most uplifting or whatever we most want to hear. Writing this chat felt really vulnerable, for me, which I think is a good thing, because it was confirmation that I was being honest and that I wasn’t just repeating someone else’s lines throughout.
Plus, if some MRA ever decides that feminists. just. don’t. CAAAARE about bad stuff that happens to men, or will just never ever ever admit that women can be abusive, this is one concrete incidence – one of many – that someone can point to in order to prove them wrong. It won’t make a difference to them, of course, because they’ve already committed to ideology over reality. But for people who are committed to reality, it will be evidence against them.
4:39 pm
Where can I sign up for this mens rights group? I feel like I'm being held down by The (wo)Man.
4:40 pm
I like how there's an ad for Chris Brown tickets on this page btw.
5:14 pm
MRAs are like tea-baggers, & probably often one & the same. Randall Terrys, trying to make the world unsafe for women. These cretins should be locked up in a re-education camp for the longest term allowed by law - 20 years.
The fact that men are too insecure to admit they were raped by a women is emblematic of the utter failure of modern men to evolve. I look forward to the day when the male gender is exterminated, save for a few thousand to be kept locked up for breeding by artificial insemination.
6:03 pm
Lovely, Angry Al.
8:21 pm
"#
Angry Al Gonzales December 7th, 2009
5:14 pm
#3
MRAs are like tea-baggers, & probably often one & the same. Randall Terrys, trying to make the world unsafe for women. These cretins should be locked up in a re-education camp for the longest term allowed by law – 20 years.
The fact that men are too insecure to admit they were raped by a women is emblematic of the utter failure of modern men to evolve. I look forward to the day when the male gender is exterminated, save for a few thousand to be kept locked up for breeding by artificial insemination.
#
bobdobbs December 7th, 2009
6:03 pm
#4
Lovely, Angry Al.
"
Hmm, more "reasoned Feminists"?
You know, if Feminists spent anywhere NEAR as much energy actually listening to MRAs (as opposed to trying to thrust your own agenda upon us) as you do trying to ridicule us (see: Ghandi)...well, you might just have a foundation for your argument.
As it stands, this poor attempt at "understanding" definitely illuminates both for it's rarity, and the typical paucity of substance involved.
For the record, Feminists have about as much right to dictate what men want and need as MRAs do to dictate the needs of women. And there's no "Hierarchy of Rights" (officially)..if you as a woman have a right, then I as a man should have the same right..
Keep that in mind.
10:13 pm
One of the main reasons for the divide is the attitude Hess demonstrates in her post. Dismissing an entire group of people's experiences as essentially bunk has the effect of making those people think one does not care about their issues. At some point both sides will have to listen to each other's experiences and give them the weight they deserve. That will mean acknowledging that some men and some feminists have caused, perpetuated or exacerbated problems for women and men respectively.
It should not be about winning an argument, but about solving social problems. People need to humble themselves instead of assuming they are inherently correct. People also need to stop with the jabs, the victim-blaming and the sarcasm. For example, few men will be won over by this article because Hess essentially calls their concerns and experiences fabricated nonsense. That is the wrong tone to take and turns off people like me who might have been more sympathetic towards feminists if not for those kind of comments.
12:03 am
"That will mean acknowledging that some men and some feminists have caused, perpetuated or exacerbated problems for women and men respectively
."Or "some MRAs and some women?"
"For example, few men will be won over by this article because Hess essentially calls their concerns and experiences fabricated nonsense. That is the wrong tone to take and turns off people like me who might have been more sympathetic towards feminists if not for those kind of comments."
Where does she call their concerns and experiences "fabricated nonsense"?
12:36 am
Men's rights activists are not protesting patriarchy, but supporting it. This is because feminism has created an unjust, corrupt society, in which false rape accusers lie in court with impunity and in which fatherhood has been reduced to the level of indentured servitude.
MRAs and feminists do not agree about anything. We are right and they are liars. Feminism is nothing but a perpetual spew of false claims and hypocrisy.
12:38 am
"MRAs are like tea-baggers, & probably often one & the same. Randall Terrys, trying to make the world unsafe for women. These cretins should be locked up in a re-education camp for the longest term allowed by law – 20 years."
Spoken like a true feminist-fascist nitwit! I'm hardly surprised that someone like you would want to imprison innocent men for twenty years for exercising their speech rights. And you're wrong; there are plenty of liberal MRAs. Glenn Sacks is the perfect example of a left-leaning fathers' rights advocate.
1:40 am
martha, I expect that Toysoldier was reading that into her comment that "MRA’s tend to believe that feminism is the root of most of these problems that affect men, and we tend to see that’s pretty much bullshit." This is fundamentally dismissive of MRA's claim without supplying any sort of corroborating evidence.
That said, in such a very short piece, it is expecting rather a lot to expect support for such a claim to be forthcoming, particularly when there are so many details to cover; schools as non-competitive environments, complete lack of penalty for even provably false accusations of sexual harassment and rape, vastly greater research funding for medical conditions primarily affecting women than for comparable conditions primarily affecting men, vastly greater resources available for female victims of domestic violence than male victims (despite a large number of studies showing the two to be about equally prevalent, with female on male violence slightly more prevalent). And that's not even counting the issues that actually got mentioned in the piece.
5:40 am
"The patriarchy oppresses men too" : Please! Give me a break!
No, it's not the patriarchy, I think it has more to do with the feminist man-haters (yes, you know who you are: the ones who are laughing at Tiger Woods being beaten-up by his wife, the ones who consistently spread falsehoods to block any shared parenting initiative, the ones who can't even comprehend that a woman could lie about rape or domestic violence....)!
9:24 am
Letting ignorant asses play with words is as dangerous as letting little kids play with loaded guns. The MRAs complain of a "patriarchy" without knowing what the word means. They are so ignorant they don't know the difference between a communist & a fascist.
You can see the latent tea-bagger in this movement in just that fact. Like the tea-baggers' signs accusing Obama of being a fascist AND a communist, these ignorant MRAs accuse a well-known, dare I say notorious, COMMUNIST of being a fascist. Moreover, they're too ignorant to know that communists use humane re-education camps, while fascists use concentration camps.
MRA should stand for Men: Real Assholes. Men have created this "civilization". Men are atop the world, literally & figuratively. Men have every step of life slanted in their favor.
If you're a man & you have troubles & think you need some kind of helping organization: two steps.
1. Have your testicles & penis removed & become a woman with help from hormone therapy, drugs, & counseling.
2. Cry your blessed little heart out, you poor pathetic little girls.
whaaa whaaa whaaaa I was a failure as a man whaaa whaaa whaaaa I'm a pathetic little girl now whaaa whaaa whaaa
10:39 am
comrade Al Gonzales your comments just show how smart you are, cant argue with facts so you try to insult us, a typical feminist trait.
10:42 am
People who support equality, as opposed to elevating some special interests over others, don't necessarily identify themselves as feminists or men's rights activists. Both men and women experience significant gender discrimination. Men and women can and, most likely, should help one another to remedy injustices applying to each other as well as those applying to themselves. That's why it's disappointing to find feminist organizations lobbying, making campaign donations and employing the other tools of special interest politics to oppose shared parenting initiatives. To me, this seems short-sighted, if not outright blind. Women have much to gain from permitting fathers to participate more fully in the rearing of children of divorce. More time for education or work or relaxation, less outlay for child care and food and other expenses. Divorce fathers might be somewhat less likely to commit suicide after being barred from their children, homes and possessions if they were permitted to be more fully engaged with their children and also, if appropriate, be freed from paying monthly child support to their former spouses. Why do feminist organizations oppose these initiatives?
11:27 am
"It won’t make a difference to them, of course, because they’ve already committed to ideology over reality."
That applies to radical feminists every bit as much as radical MRAs. You know, people who dismiss what you're going to say because they "KNOW" it can't be so -- but then they can't produce a scrap of actual objective evidence to support their position.
The problem with radicals in either camp? They never met nuance that they couldn't transform into black-and-white. If "patriarchy" exists, then, yes, MRAs, "patriarchy" hurts men, too. But, by the same token, yes, feminists, women are at least as responsible (and let's be honest, they are more responsible) for creating and fomenting "patriarchy" as men. You all forget that the vast majority of women want their men to fit into a rigid masculine gender role, and men will do whatever women tell them in order to mate. That's not ideology, it's a fact everyone not infected with "gender studies" understands.
11:34 am
Ah, the typical purposeful ignorance of the DC villagers. No wonder people up here in Maryland loath you all.
It's so elementary decode this "patriarchy" 1984 code speak the feminists are so fond of.
"Patriarchy" equals "Men who women are attracted too"(ie, rich republican men, thugs, homosexual men) equals "female sexuality". Thus nothing more then an ad homonym attack that is meant to trick men into giving up their agency and individuality.
"Matriarchy" can also be defined as "female sexuality" where women use their sexual power to manipulate gullible boys and young men. It can also cause damage to other women as well, as the feminist bible the "Vagina Monologues" states that the rape of a young teenage girl is "empowerment". Much like seducing young boys or drunk men into sex is also "empowerment" and that he "wanted it".
Thought I suspect the Villagers will bash and dismiss my statements because they live with blinders on and never bother to take them off.
12:15 pm
So we have the people who deny evolution but believe a Jewish carpenter rose from the dead, and the menfolk of these people are cry babies, & want special rights even though they are born, live, & die, on top of the world, literally, figuratively, & sexually.
Well, aren't you precious? Of course white men need more help, life is so fucking difficult for white men. Everybody knows that, & the world is filled with sympathy for white men.
The people in Darfur hold candlelight vigils for white men in America. Hotel Rwanda took up a collection for white men in America. The rich socialist countries of Northern Europe donate food & clothing to the white men of America.
White men of America, I pity you.
Now castrate yourselves & go be the women you want to be.
12:32 pm
We MRAs are talking about you here:
http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=18445.0
Oh, and Comrade Al, your opinion carries no weight at all.
1:04 pm
@ martha coyote:
As Arbitrary noted, I was referring to this comment: "MRA’s tend to believe that feminism is the root of most of these problems that affect men, and we tend to see that’s pretty much [bs]."
Most of the problems men's rights advocates discuss relate to male victimization, fathers' rights, boys' education and men's health. Of those concerns, the majority of the opposition to addressing those concerns comes from feminists. Personally, I can not think of any group who actively opposes shared parenting, who actively opposes extending existing domestic violence and sexual assault services to male victims, who actively opposes the creation of men's shelters, who actively opposes changes in the school environment to better educate boys or who actively dismisses concerns about circumcision, male suicide or men's workplace injuries and deaths other than feminists.
That does not mean there are not other groups who oppose addressing those issues, only that I am unaware of them. However, Hess regarded the men's movement's complaints about feminist opposition as fabricated nonsense (obviously she used a different word), which I suppose is the more accurate way of phrasing that. Nevertheless, that sort of statement will certainly leave men's rights groups with the impression that she and other feminists consider those who have experienced the feminist opposition firsthand to essentially have made it up. That is akin to telling victims of police profiling that their complaints are complete bunk. That is not a very good position to operate from.
1:32 pm
You didn't bother to tell any of us who you are, "Chris" (you brave boy!), but it's pretty clear that for someone who's so good at deciphering "decode" language, you don't know how to write basic debate terms like ad hominem.
1:33 pm
Oh, and Comrade Al, your opinion carries no weight at all.
Except that for whatever reason you found it worthy of special commentary, Mr. Dias.
1:58 pm
One would expect semantic attacks like that from a typical DC villager.
3:56 pm
You know, as a gay man, feminism is more helpful to me than is MRA. How funny is that?
Also, please continue to jump up on those crosses, guys. You're a bit early, but I do love a good passion play.
5:40 pm
In response to my comment that the opinions of "Comrade Al" carry no weight at all, Daniel M. Laenker wrote:
Limited commentary, true enough. The "whatever reason" that his opinions carry no weight is because he wrote (and apparently also believes) this little gem:
Until the day in which a wholesale extermination and/or enslavement of the male sex occurs (as per his dream scenario), my estimation of Comrade Al's irrelevance is, I believe, quite sound.
7:20 pm
In the year, ♫♪♫
2025, ♫♪♫
ain't gonna be,
no man alive,
Only women,
To think do & see
What becomes, history.
In the year, ♫♪♫
2024, ♫♪♫
Mass extermination,
Of men & more,
No longer needed –
Ob so fucking lite,
A test tube,
Can do the feat!
In the year, ♫♪♫
2023, ♫♪♫
Amanda Knox, came to me,
We had sex, & then did it again,
& then once more, I was such a whore…
This is just a beginning. I’ll come back with the whole song later. Need to do a little research.
I don't argue with the future; I only write it. Perhaps you’ve heard of my most recent bestseller & critically acclaimed opus: The History of the Future. ©®™
7:34 pm
In the year, ♫♪♫
2025, ♫♪♫
ain't gonna be,
no man alive,
Only women,
To think do & see
What becomes, history.
In the year, ♫♪♫
2024, ♫♪♫
Mass extermination,
Of men & more,
No longer needed –
Ob-so-fucking-lete,
A test tube,
Can do the feat!
In the year, ♫♪♫
2023, ♫♪♫
Amanda Knox, came to me,
We had sex, & then did it again,
& then once more, I was such a whore…
In the year,
2022,
I got high, so did you,
We smoked the bong, we smoked the pipe,
Oasis came, with the Stripes.
In the year,
2121,
Kate Moss & I,
Had so much fun,
Snortin’ coke, havin’ sex,
She’s quite the animal, T Rex…
In the year,
2020,
I could see,
Adrian Fenty,
I plucked my eyes, from their sockets,
& had a burger, at Johny Rockets.
This is just a beginning. I’ll come back with the whole song later. Need to do a little research.
I don't argue with the future; I only write it. Perhaps you’ve heard of my most recent bestseller & critically acclaimed opus: The History of the Future. ©®™
2:43 pm
Here's to comrade Al Gonzales, for distilling internet discussions into their true nature, as pure rants with no meaning other than that of a crying baby. I've read his (her?) posts, but I can distinguish no coherent thoughts at all. Is he/she for or against the ideas expressed in the article? Is he/she for or against any of the other comments? I can't tell, there's only screaming.
3:13 pm
Wait, is that the same John Dias that wrote Misandry Review? The one with the "cuntoons" in it?
I lol'd just the tiniest bit. But only the tiniest.
3:22 pm
Thank you Daniel! One should never forget about the cuntoons!
6:12 pm
Yes, Misandry Review is my baby. It's an aggregator of the content from various blogs.
I'm unaware of the cuntoons that you're referring to. If there is content that is (in my judgment) inappropriate, I will gladly review it and consider it for deletion. Specify?
7:18 pm
Comrade Al Gonzales,
You are behaving like a sex starved man. Looks like your tool is hungry for a long time for a fuck.
So, you dream of a world, where all men are castrated so that you have a harem.
Some radical feminist is talking about truth and reality. However, the reality is, people like you are MCPs, who believe someone who lacks penis is weak and vulnerable.
Then, there is another radical feminist who wants to create some fucking evidence to dispel the thoughts that radical feminists are no way different terrorists and fascists.
Societies discriminated men for ages. Men were pitted against a violent nature. This imbalance will go. This will go faster, if the boat is rocked.
10:01 pm
I have to break communist policy to comment, but, uh, OK, Su. I'm going to be a suicide, so it ain't about me. How you leap to your bizarre conclusions is your problem - sounds like heavy-duty projection to me.
You need extra help in reading comprehension. You need a lot of extra help in writing.
WTF are you trying to say?
In any event, thanks for sharing. I hope you get some therapy & medications for your problems.
12:40 pm
You MRAs and feminists should meet up for a big party. I bet it would turn into an orgy within 2 minutes. The sexual tension between you 2 is insane. You all just need a good fuck to relax and calm the fuck down.
2:05 pm
Bomb, that could never happen. Stop fantasizing.
3:44 pm
20 years ago back in university I would have considered a male feminist. By my 30s I was making the difference between equity feminist and gender feminist. I looks to me that equity feminist lost and the movement has been taken by the gender one. While I see some extremes things in the MRA literature, I can say the exact same thing for feminist literature and what is worst there is that it can actully be though in college. Over the year, it has become clear that feminism does not care about men, any attempts I have seen at showing any level of caring have either been laughable or got their author excommunicated from the feminist movement.
In fact I cannot think of someone less qualified than an average militant feminist to address male issues. The dedication to the woman point of view is what makes most of them unable to step outside themselves and view thing from another perspective. Something, I had to do back when I was proud to call myself a feminist (e.i. try so see the women perspective) .
Articles like this one actually does help a bit, had there been more, I might not have left the movement, but I say it helps a bit, because as things stand now it is also a day late and a dollar short. I guess I am more demanding now than I once was.
4:53 pm
If substantial numbers of women, including feminists, start becoming reasonable with respect to gender issues, what will us Guyinists have left to mock, and what will I have left to mock on my blog, "The Balls Monologues" (available by clicking on my name at the top left of this comment)?
Never mind. The womans' movement jumped the shark more than a quarter century ago. We can have fun extracting a little payback for a while.