Beyond DC

False Rape Accusations and Rape Culture

Posted by Amanda Hess on Sep. 17, 2009, at 2:36 pm

Last night, the Hofstra University freshman who had accused five men of gang-raping her recanted her statement. The 18-year-old student, who had told police that the men had lured her into a dorm bathroom, tied her up, and raped her, admitted to the Nassau County District Attorney’s office that the “incident” was, in fact, consensual. After being released from jail, where they had been held for nearly 24 hours, the four men cleared of the rape charges posed in a series of celebratory photographs, smiling, raising their hands in the air, and offering thumbs-up signs to the press. Overnight, the men turned from accused rapists to . . . four guys who had had consensual sex with a woman together.

It was an odd scene, if only because the implications of this situation are too thorny to be glossed over by a jubilant release story. Since the men were cleared of all charges, the public will likely never know what actually happened during this “incident,” why the woman reported it as a rape, and why she later took it back. For most bystanders, these details are unimportant. Whenever a high-profile rape accusation becomes public knowledge, commentators tend to gravitate to one side of the story, regardless of the outcome of the case. On one side are people who are concerned about the problem of rape. On the other, people who are concerned about the problem of false rape accusations. It shouldn’t have to be that way.

I can’t recall how many times I’ve seen a discussion of a rape accusation devolve into the one side arguing why the accuser should be believed, and the other side arguing that the accuser should be discredited. Another common point of argument I find frustrating—what percentage of rape claims are genuine, and what percentage are false? Most of the time, we, armchair rape analysts, launch into these arguments before we have any actual idea whether a particular person has raped another person. In most cases, we will never know. What we do know, all the time, is that rape is a problem, and false rape accusations are a problem. The meaningless squabbles between the two camps tend to overlook the fact that people concerned about rape and people concerned about fake rape accusations are both fighting against the same thing: rape culture.

Rape culture does not just encourage men to proceed after she says “no.” Rape culture does not simply teach men that a lack of physical resistance is an invitation. Rape culture does not only tell men to assert ownership over whichever female body they desire. Rape culture also tells women not to claim ownership over their own bodies. Rape culture also informs women that they should not desire sex. Rape culture also tells women that saying yes makes them bad women.

Both rape and rape accusations are products of the roles assigned by rape culture. In the traditional seduction scenario, a woman is expected to not desire to have sex, and to only submit after the man has successfully coerced her into submission. When the preferred model for consensual sex looks a hell of a lot like rape, an array of fucked-up scenarios are inevitable: the woman never wanted to fuck the guy, refuses to submit, and is raped; the woman submits to the man’s coercion in order to avoid other negative consequences (like being raped); the woman had desired the sex all along, but must defend her femininity by saying that she had been coerced into sex. Thankfully, a good deal of modern men and women reject these antiquated ideas, but they’re far from being banished from the sexual landscape. Especially when that landscape involves four men, one woman, and freshman year of college.

And yet, even the people who care most about false rape accusations seem to find ways to keep rape culture going strong. In his coverage of the case, Men’s News Daily editor Paul Elam writes:

In what has become a more or less common turn of events, the female Hofstra University student that accused five men, including one classmate, of gang raping her in a school dormitory bathroom has recanted the charges. That’s legal and media speak for admitting she cheapened herself by taking on five men willingly on a men’s room floor and lied about it later out of what little capacity for shame she had.

Elan admits that even if the woman hadn’t accused five men of raping her, she still would have “cheapened herself” by having sex with the men “willingly.” Meanwhile, the four released men in the case carry no such group-sex stigma when they pose triumphantly outside the jailhouse doors. In case you’re interested, it gets worse.

RELATED: Why are people calling the accuser a whore instead of a liar?

Tags: false rape accusations, hofstra university, rape, sexual assault

Comments

recursiveparadox September 17th, 2009
3:08 pm

#1

I think what it largely comes down to is that a lot of these folks don’t care about stopping the rape culture at all, or even know about it consciously.

They hate false accusations of rape because it’s something that could happen to them (you’ll notice it’s mostly guys flipping out on this) not because it is caused by rape culture.

And for the ones that simply don’t realize that the rape culture trains women to follow the coercion/innocence paradigm of sex, they aren’t making the connection when they engage in “slut shaming” and criticism of personal sexual choice. So they’re really just shooting themselves in the foot, because their actions contribute to false accusations.

This is part of why sex workers, erotica actresses and sensual women who aren’t afraid to be sexual are so universally hated and mistreated. Because they don’t fit that paradigm of coercion/innocence. It comes out in Tucker Max’s bullshit. Why are girls who want to go out, get drunk and fuck a guy called whores?

Why do wooers and pick up artists operate from an assumption that no girl will give them the time of day unless they “fool” her, “trick” her or “control” her with social engineering?

And why do so many women engage in horrible shaming of our own against our peers? Why is it that a polyamorous girl is a slut? Why is it that a girl who loves sex and isn’t afraid to admit it is a dirty skank? Why is virginity (which is 100% equal to inexperience and not anything sacred) in women valued so much more than anything else (beyond physical attractiveness)?

This paradigm infects our culture very deeply and I imagine a lot of these folks have absolutely no clue what is going on when they pull this shit about these stories. They only make it all worse.
Anon September 17th, 2009
3:51 pm

#2

Rape culture? That sounds pretty vague, and pretty harsh. You honestly think we have a culture that promotes rape? I cannot take anything you say seriously after that. It sounds a lot like the all powerful, yet amorphous and incorporeal patriarchy. What if I went around talking about having to live in a “Princess Entitlement Culture” or a “Female Moral Superiority Culture”. Was your father, and his father, all part of this “Rape Culture”. Is the boogey man still in your closet secretly oppressing you through fear and intimidation?! Grow up.
Jenny September 17th, 2009
4:04 pm

#3

This is smartest thing I’ve ever read about false accusations of rape.
Emily September 17th, 2009
4:13 pm

#4

Dear Anon,

http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Rape-Culture-Emilie-Buchwald/dp/1571312692/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253218337&sr=8-1

Please check out the above link / book if you’d like to see a less vague definition.

You’re the one who is commenting anonymously. YOU grow up.
L September 17th, 2009
4:24 pm

#5

Hahaha, I love that “Anon” thinks that you made up the concept of rape culture, and that it’s “harsh.” What decade are we in? (Though, if anything here is harsh, it’s the MND article. He probably thinks he’s a real journalist working for a real news organization.)

In addition to the Sexist Beatdown link about rape/consent, I would also like to recommend “Another post about rape” at Fugitivus. The blogger there does a really good job of outlining the various gender mores and ideals that perpetuate rape culture.
Joe September 17th, 2009
4:25 pm

#6

You rather overlook the point that rape is definitely a crime. On the other hand false accusation is often treated as though is was not only not a crime but not even an action of any consequence. Four people where imprisoned because lies where told. You don’t care that lies where told and four men suffered because you have zero decency and no appreciation of even elementary justice.

As for Emily’s little final outburst this sort of shaming language has no effect at all other than to irritate slightly.
Bob September 17th, 2009
4:46 pm

#7

First of all: Great post Anon that pretty much sums up what I feel about the whole “Rape Culture” thing. It is nothing but a canard that justifies in people’s minds the arsenal of rape shield laws that put men, and yes I said MEN recursiveparadox, in a terrible state of vulnerability when it comes to our justice system. Why in God’s name do we have to instantly make public the names and faces of the accused of a abhorrent crime ruining their lives in the time it takes for a broadcast signal to bounce off of a satellite and into our homes and local bars across the entire country? Why?
I strongly believe that the accuser’s identity should be protected because of the particular nature of the alleged crime. I also strongly believe that the names of the accused should be kept under wraps for THE EXACT SAME REASON! It is because we don’t have this parity that witch hunts like the Duke Lacrosse case got out of control. Prosecutors smelling the blood of an opportunity to make a name for themselves and academics seeing another opportunity to clothe themselves in the sanctimonious cloak of false justice love this kind of stuff and it needs to change. And if you think that these two cases are rare you are dead wrong! For every one of these things that hits the national news there are scores of cases every day in which men loose their reputations, careers and families due to a false accusation. Now I wonder if someone could tell me who’s day it would ruin to extend anonymity to the accused until a conviction is made? Anybody?

A quote from the article:

“I can’t recall how many times I’ve seen a discussion of a rape accusation devolve into the one side arguing why the accuser should be believed, and the other side arguing that the accuser should be discredited. Another common point of argument I find frustrating—what percentage of rape claims are genuine, and what percentage are false? Most of the time, we, armchair rape analysts, launch into these arguments before we have any actual idea whether a particular person has raped another person. In most cases, we will never know. What we do know, all the time, is that rape is a problem, and false rape accusations are a problem. The meaningless squabbles between the two camps tend to overlook the fact that people concerned about rape and people concerned about fake rape accusations are both fighting against the same thing: rape culture……………Rape culture also informs women that they should not desire sex. Rape culture also tells women that saying yes makes them bad women.”

And another quote:

“After being released from jail, where they had been held for nearly 24 hours, the four men cleared of the rape charges posed in a series of celebratory photographs, smiling, raising their hands in the air, and offering thumbs-up signs to the press. Overnight, the men turned from accused rapists to . . . four guys who had had consensual sex with a woman together.”

How dare you Ms. Hess! In nearly the same breath you indict these innocent men of being mere pigs who bamboozled a young girl into having sex with all of them at the same time while saying that there is a “rape culture” out there that tells women that they are bad when they have sexual desires. HYPOCRITE!!!!
You assume that they were happy because they all gang banged a girl. How totaly calous and demeaning to these men! They were locked up in jail facing 20 years in jail and now that they are happy to be out they are a bunch of dogs for beeing happy about it? Seriously.
Now ask yourself what kind of culture we actually live in a “Rape Culture” or perhaps a “False Rape Culture.” An interesting and valid question given the events. But one that I am sure to be damned for asking.
Sarah TX September 17th, 2009
4:56 pm

#8

I’ve never thought of false accusations in this light, but it makes a lot of sense. It also really reveals the deep hypocrisy of commentators who gleefully dig up every single case where a woman recants her testimony about being raped (even though the actual percentages of false rape claims are extremely low, especially compared to the number of legitimate rape cases that are never prosecuted).
Sarah TX September 17th, 2009
5:01 pm

#9

Bob:

Why do you feel that those accused of rape deserve anonymity while those accused of a much worse crime – murder – do not get the same protection?

One myth perpetuated by a rape culture is that the violent rape is the worst crime imaginable – that a pure woman who is raped can never recover from such an act. That a woman should wish to be killed rather than sacrifice her innocence in such a way, because a woman is worse than garbage if she “lets herself” be raped. I simply don’t believe that’s the case.
recursiveparadox September 17th, 2009
5:01 pm

#10

@Anon:

Rape culture is indeed an amorphous, hard to see thing. This is likely why you are so unable to see it. And it isn’t just you. Most are unable to spot it unless they have a background in sociology, women’s studies, responsible social engineering, or psychology.

The rape culture is just like any Viral Culture. Quite simply: cultural, sociological and psychological elements that are virally spread throughout society by social training, violent enforcement and marginalization of people.

The rape culture is a Viral Culture that is a part of the Viral Culture of misogyny and sexism normally referred to as the patriarchy (which is actually poorly named because it forgets about oppression intersection. Look around for kyriarchy, the new word describing the shifting mass of oppression that much of humanity faces, including men).

Did you ever wonder why virgin guys are treated so badly? Did they really do anything wrong? Of course not. One doesn’t have to have sex at the same time as everyone else. Yet virgin guys are treated like shit. This is a part of the rape culture.

It’s why women who have sex are called sluts. Why many guys think that any woman they meet owes them sex for something as simple as a meal or a door being held open, things that have nothing to do with sex at all.

It’s important, since you lack the background to see this easily (like most folks) that you learn to look past your socially conditioned behavior. Question why you have certain views. Why is that girl who had a threesome a whore but the guy who had a threesome a total stud? Why are rape jokes funny to you even though hearing them severely hurts victims of rape?

Think about all these things. You engage in them without knowing why and act as evidence that a viral culture has infected you. Just like it has infected all of us. Women are not immune either.
recursiveparadox September 17th, 2009
5:05 pm

#11

@Bob

“It is nothing but a canard that justifies in people’s minds the arsenal of rape shield laws that put men, and yes I said MEN recursiveparadox, in a terrible state of vulnerability when it comes to our justice system.”

You realize that I was stating the brainwashing of the rape culture on women partially because it’s harmful to both men and women?

False accusations come from the idea that a woman can’t say yes to sex without being a slut. Men and women contribute to this idea. The fact that you paint a sociological concept into some kind of radical tool to hurt men just shows how blind you are to the situation.

And it really just hurts your cause of protecting men from false accusations. As soon as we remake society into a place where women can have and enjoy as much sex as men do and not be ostracized is the time that false accusations of rape will (for the most part) evaporate.

But hey, keep on shooting yourself and every guy you seek to protect in the foot, man. You’re being super helpful.
recursiveparadox September 17th, 2009
5:08 pm

#12

As a note, I don’t believe the identity of anyone alleged to have committed any crime (even murder) should be revealed to the press. Nor do I believe the identity of anyone who has allegedly been victimized in a crime be released either. It poisons the ability of our justice system to work.

No leaks to the press until the case is done and then /only if/ a guilty verdict is found. The accuser should not be revealed at all regardless.
Jay R September 17th, 2009
5:11 pm

#13

“False rape allegations are the means by which all women keep all men in a state of fear.”

The incidence of false (not just “unproven”) rape allegations comes in between 25% and 50% — with 40% being the most reliable figure. (Search for “false rape” and “Kamin”.)

Keep regurgitating your misandrous (go look it up) women’s studies mantras if it makes you feel better.
L September 17th, 2009
5:25 pm

#14

Jay, dude, you don’t even know how to use your own lingo properly: it’s “misandrIST,” not “misandrous.”

And hoo boy do the sites listed for the “false rape Kamin” search you recommended ever look reliable. Wow. Webcommentary.com? That’s about the same caliber as the British Journal of Psychology! And Glenn Sacks sure is an unbiased reporter on such issues as false rape claims! Thanks for the search rec, Jay. You might consider citing the actual study if you expect anyone with a high school education and some knowledge of source evaluation to take your words as something other than a long-winded, unfunny joke.
M September 17th, 2009
5:44 pm

#15

First, Rape culture? Interesting to note that according to the National Crime Victimisation Survey the incidence of rape declined by more than 80% since the 80s.

Secondly, many person not only men hate false accusation of rape. This includes of course rape victims and everyone else who believes that libel is wrong.
Paul Elam September 17th, 2009
5:44 pm

#16

I enjoyed the dreamlike quality of this piece.

I wonder if Ms. Hess notices that all the social and legal instruments in place, including rape shield laws, men in prison for the crime, special victim crime units, zealous prosecutors, a number of awareness campaigns and the like point to the reality that we live in an “anti-rape culture,” not the other way around.

Could it be any more obvious, or is there secret rape societies somewhere operated by the Illuminati?

The problem here is that while rape, among other serious crimes needs to be addressed aggressively by our criminal justice system, we have, though embracing imaginary concepts like “rape culture” removed justice itself from the equation.

It should be noted that the great majority of men released from prison from the work of The Innocence Project were cleared of false rape convictions. And many sources put the false rape reporting incidence at around 45%.

Being outraged at this does not make a person supportive of rape culture, imagined or otherwise, and I find Hess’s implication of that both woefully misguided and glaringly disingenuous.

We really do know what happened in that incident. We have the statements of everyone who was there, which at this point, since the accuser quite lying, all match perfectly.

There were five men and one woman that had consensual sex in a dormitory bathroom. Nothing sterling there for the character of any of them, the men included.

But character, thanks to contemporary culture, was only an issue for the woman. For the men, it was their freedom and future that hung in the balance.

I should also note that if the lie were not exposed, and given the young ages of those men, they could have ended up in a place where stories of gang rapes don’t need to be concocted.

No matter how much Ms. Hess tries, she will not find the road to justice paved with misandry.

Paul Elam
Editor-in-Chief
mensnewsdaily.com
Jay R September 17th, 2009
5:45 pm

#17

L,

Well, aren’t you the arrogant — but completely mistaken — little piece of work.

From the Collins English Dictionary and Thesaurus:

misandry
n hatred of men
(C20: from Greek, from miso- + -andria, from aner man)
♦ misandrist n, adj
♦ misandrous adj

So typical of a feminist — just ignore information which contradicts your existing opinion. I am sure you also think that the fluff inserted into your brain by means of “women’s studies” has some validity in the real world.

Really, again, you should go look it up. Information is out there. Your head might explode, though, so be careful. (It’s called cognitive dissonance.)
Bob September 17th, 2009
6:06 pm

#18

recursiveparadox,

First of all thanks for agreeing with me about the anonymity of the accused. It is a very important issue and I think that if it were implemented it would not only protect the accused but also reduce the amount of false accusations as one of the primary reasons that false accusations are made is to ruin the reputation of the accused.

However I must say that I do not need a degree in women’s studies or sociology or for that matter to have any exceptional degree of intelligence to see where false accusations come from. They come from the ones making the accusations and them alone.
The reason that they happen so often isn’t because women are more apt to lie. Women and men have the exact same propensity for evil as well as good. They happen so often because the accusers are virtually never held to account for what they have done and therefore can do so with impunity. It is doubtful that the woman in this case will pay anywhere near the consequences necessary to deter others from doing the same thing.
We live in a society that has developed a culture that dangerously over idealizes women and devalues and demonizes men. At any time for any reason a woman can simply point her finger at any man, cry “RAPE” and pooof-the man’s live is ruined. That is not a “Rape Culture” that is a False Rape Culture.
Bob September 17th, 2009
6:18 pm

#19

Sarah TX,

I would think that giving the accused the same protection as the accuser would be nothing more than common sense. Why anybody else would thing differently is beyond me. Furthermore, rape, as terrible of a crime as it is, is something that an innocent victim given the proper help can eventually recover from even if not fully.
A false accusation on the other hand is something that an innocent victim can NEVER get over no matter how much help they get. You cannot restore someones reputation once it has been ruined. You cannot restore a ruined family. You cannot pay back for years spent in jail. You cannot fix a life broken in such a way, ever.

Paul,

A brilliant retort and complete in it’s articulation as usual with you! I would encourage anybody reading these posts to view his web page :http://www.avoiceformen.com/ and read his stuff and watch his wonderful videos on this and many other subjects that affect men.
Sarah TX September 17th, 2009
6:31 pm

#20

A false accusation on the other hand is something that an innocent victim can NEVER get over no matter how much help they get.

This is a silly and facetious statement. If you are speaking from personal experience then own up to it. But don’t assume that your experience applies to every person.

I honestly don’t care if those accused of committing a crime are named in the press, as long as laws made in this regard apply to all accused, no matter the crime. A person’s life can be ruined if they are accused of robbery, murder, or child abuse, yet I don’t see rape apologists frothing at the mouth when persons accused for these crimes are found innocent.
mongo September 17th, 2009
6:34 pm

#21

“Rape culture is indeed an amorphous, hard to see thing. This is likely why you are so unable to see it. And it isn’t just you. Most are unable to spot it unless they have a background in sociology, women’s studies, responsible social engineering, or psychology.”

All sorts of things are impossible to see unless you are trained for a long time to see them. I believe that student monks in Tibet spent decades studying, and still didn’t know the Earth was round, that the sun was a star and that gravity was a universal force.

Otherwise some very interesting observations.
Piece of Advice September 17th, 2009
6:39 pm

#22

When railing against “typical feminists” and “misandry” you should probably at least TRY to hide your hateful attitudes toward women. I mean, I know this is a some sort of pat-on-the-back-athon from Men’s Daily News but you could TRY to cut out the ad hominem attacks, baseless attributions of thought and motive and disguise of opinion as fact.
Pierce Harlan September 17th, 2009
6:41 pm

#23

There are too many rapes, and there are too many false rape claims. The difference is, we are encouraged to discuss the former but it is politically incorrect even to acknowledge the latter.

I run the world’s leading internet site that gives voice to those persons who are victims of false rape claims. http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ Rape is a tragic, all-too prevalent reality, but I am not a misogynist merely because I think it’s important to tell a side of the rape story ignored by the persons who dominate the public discourse about rape.

The presumed innocent, who too often turn out to be falsely accused, are provided few protections, and the falsely accused are treated as unfortunate but necessary collateral damage, flotsam, in what most people regard as the more important war on rape. As Vassar VP Catherine Comins once said about the falsely accused: “They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them.”

Men and boys falsely accused have been beaten, spat upon, chased, killed and some have killed themselves. Check out my website: we chronicle their true-life horror stories every day. Most emerge from a false claim badly damaged in one way or another. Their accusers are afforded anonymity while their reputations are often destroyed as soon as their names are splashed all over the news (and thereafter, any time one of them applies for a job, his prospective employer need only Google his name to see the horrid accusation).

In “he said/she said” disputes over acquaintance rape claims where there are competing claims of criminality (she accuses him of rape, he accuses her of making a false rape claim), he is automatically arrested and bail is often set absurdly high, while she is wrapped in the garb of victimhood. This has the effect of giving an entire class of citizens (young women) the power to deprive another class (young men) of their liberty and destroy their lives on even false claims.

False accusations are easier to make than ever, requiring no corroboration or physical injury. Yet false accusers are rarely charged, and even if they are convicted they hardly ever receive significant sentences. When we fail — or in this case, refuse — to deter criminality, we invite more criminality.

One need not deny the horrors or rape to acknowledge that false rape claims are a significant, largely unaddressed problem. I am familiar with every major study on the prevalence of false rape claims, and every serious, unbiased study shows that they are a significant problem. They are largely unaddressed because the crime of making a false rape report has become unnecessarily gender-politicized and improperly removed from the public discourse about rape. We need to ditch the politics, and the ideology, and start treating both rape AND false rape claims what they are: serious crimes.
Bob September 17th, 2009
6:49 pm

#24

Sarah TX,

Then you would agree that the accuser should have their name published as well? Can you answer the question that I stated above asking who’s day it would ruin to withhold the names of the accused? Will you even try? I doubt it.

If someone is accused of murder and is exonerated then they can get on with their lives. This is very different in rape cases. I brought up the Duke Lacrosse players as an example. They were drummed out of school and to this day are still demonized by the Duke faculty. Think about something for a sec: when you are arrested for any crime your name goes on a permanent record. Imagine two guys applying for a job that requires a background check. One has been arrested for first degree murder and the other for sexual assault. Both have been found not guilty. Who do you think is more likely to get the job? Most often times a cloud hangs over the head of the accused for life.
Who are you to ask me about my personal experience and to “own up to it”? Own up to what? I have never raped anybody. And I assume you think that even being accused is a crime. You have proven my whole point!
Steve September 17th, 2009
7:00 pm

#25

“I honestly don’t care if those accused of committing a crime are named in the press, as long as laws made in this regard apply to all accused, no matter the crime”

When will the criminal who falsely accused 5 young men of rape be named in the press just as the 5 innocent victims of her crime were similarly named?
Bob September 17th, 2009
7:03 pm

#26

“When railing against “typical feminists” and “misandry” you should probably at least TRY to hide your hateful attitudes toward women. I mean, I know this is a some sort of pat-on-the-back-athon from Men’s Daily News but you could TRY to cut out the ad hominem attacks, baseless attributions of thought and motive and disguise of opinion as fact”

A typical knee jerk reaction to men standing up for themselves.
Yea, I am all about keeping innocent men out of jail and speaking out against a judicial system that treats them unfairly so that makes me a rape apologist right? Wrong. Your blame and shame tactics are getting old and sooner or later they won’t work on anybody anymore.
Steve September 17th, 2009
7:10 pm

#27

“you could TRY to cut out the ad hominem attacks, baseless attributions of thought and motive and disguise of opinion as fact”

This remark doesn’t strike ms “Piece of advice” as just a leeetle hypocritical given her own baseless attribution of “hateful attitudes toward women”?
baraqiel September 17th, 2009
8:37 pm

#28

Bob, Jay, Steve, Anon, etc:
You’re all arguing the wrong thing. Of course this post doesn’t make any sense to you. It’s not trying to prove the existence of rape culture. It is explaining (and very well, too — great post, Amanda) an ancillary effect of the sociological concept known as rape culture. If you don’t agree with the premise (rape culture exists), this will seem like GIGO to you. All that means is that you haven’t done the prerequisite research.

Just in case you’re interested:
“You honestly think we have a culture that promotes rape?” http://contexts.org/socimages/tag/rape/

“. What if I went around talking about having to live in a “Princess Entitlement Culture” or a “Female Moral Superiority Culture”.” http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/faq-arent-feminists-just-sexists-towards-men/ and http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/ and http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/faq-isnt-the-patriarchy-just-some-conspiracy-theory-that-blames-all-men-even-decent-men-for-womens-woes/

“I wonder if Ms. Hess notices that all the social and legal instruments in place, including rape shield laws, men in prison for the crime, special victim crime units, zealous prosecutors, a number of awareness campaigns and the like point to the reality that we live in an “anti-rape culture,” not the other way around.” I will echo Amanda’s link to the Kahan study: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1437742# There are also a lot of essays floating around about the idea of the “perfect rape” (by a stranger, violent) and the “perfect rape victim” (white, sober) and how these ideas are constructed so that women whose rapes don’t fit the “perfect rape” model can be seen as not really having been raped.

Also: rape shield laws bar defense lawyers from using a woman’s past sexual activity as evidence in a rape trial. Would you care to explain why this is bad, or why a woman’s past sexual history is relevant to a rape trial?

“Nothing sterling there for the character of any of them, the men included.” What exactly is wrong with having consensual group sex? Why does that damage your character?

“In “he said/she said” disputes over acquaintance rape claims where there are competing claims of criminality (she accuses him of rape, he accuses her of making a false rape claim), he is automatically arrested and bail is often set absurdly high, while she is wrapped in the garb of victimhood.” Personally the only time I have seen this happen is when a man raped a woman who was knocked out on pain meds at the time — the man claimed that she consented sometime after she woke up in the middle of him raping her, so not very ambiguous there at all, actually. But your statement contradicts many survivors’ experiences, cf: http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/another-thing-i-could-do-without/

The rest of http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/tag/rape is also great reading on this.
Natalie September 17th, 2009
10:11 pm

#29

@ Paul Elam

I do not want to get too far into this conversation in this particular forum, but I wanted to make one point.

It is VERY important to distinguish between “false reports” of rape and “false specific allegations.” Yes, many people have been cleared of rape through DNA evidence. However, that does not mean the report of rape in those cases was false. It simply means that the rape victim and/or police investigated the wrong individual(s), either through poor memory, poor investigative skills, lack of investigative techniques (such as DNA testing) or some combination thereof.

I’d like to see quality research of how many false REPORTS there are, not just false accusations.
Michael September 17th, 2009
10:21 pm

#30

The original article: Since the men were cleared of all charges, the public will likely never know what actually happened during this “incident,” why the woman reported it as a rape, and why she later took it back.

Apparently, the video that surfaced that purported shows her willingly engaging in sex with these men apparently shows “exactly” what happened during this incident.

A consensual sexual engagement occurred and the girl falsely accused 5 men of rape.

If not for the videotape (and perhaps despite it) – their lives would effectively have been over.

She she be arrested, charged, and subjected to at least as harsh a punishment as the accused would have suffered if convicted.
Michael September 17th, 2009
10:22 pm

#31

And I should proofread before I hit the submit button, too.
Pierce Harlan September 17th, 2009
10:22 pm

#32

Natalie, go to my site, False Rape Society. There have only been a handful of serious, unbiased studies on the prevalence of false rape claims. The two by former feminist icon, sociologist Eugene Kanin found that of all the reported rapes in his study, 41% and 50% were not just false but recanted. Every single serious study shows a significant number of false rape claims. The actual number is impossible to discerns but it’s likely in the 18 to 60 percent range, with possible (no means certain) underreporting. How’s that for honesty? You won’t hear that from the radical gender feminists. They KNOW for a fact what the numbers are. Funny, because I am aware of every study ever conducted on this subject and I don’t know with certainty.
Natalie September 17th, 2009
11:16 pm

#33

@ Pierce Harlan

I think we should also be wary of necessarily considering a recantation as evidence of a non-rape. There are dozens of reasons that an alleged victim may recant a rape report. Only one of them is that the rape did not happen.

Bottom line, we will never know an accurate number of the number of rapes that occur (under-reporting) and the number of false reports that occur. The second one is trickier simply because a recantation an exoneration, a dropped case, etc. do not necessarily mean it didn’t happen.
Polstergeist September 17th, 2009
11:21 pm

#34

@Paul Elam
That number of false reports sounds high to me, but that’s merely an intuition. And how does that number compare to false reports of other crimes? Is it significantly higher? If not, that could not be the logical proof of general female dishonesty you seem to be after.

Just one quibble re: the Innocence Project releases. All of the releases that have occurred here in Dallas (and there have been many, due to the good work of our current D.A, and the long-preserved DNA evidence in Dallas County) have not been due to lying victims, but to incarceration of the wrong perpetrator. In other words, the women in question were certainly raped, violently and undeniably, but those women or other witnesses in the cases identified the wrong perpetrator in a lineup. As a result, eyewitness testimony will not be the pivotal item that it has been in the past.

This article represents my first encounter with the idea of rape culture–and I think that while the terminology may be unfortunate, we do have some fucked up and repressed ideas about sexuality in this culture that lead to pain on all sides. I would argue that misogyny and misandry are neither opposite nor counteractive–more like mutually destructive. Arguing that you’re not falling for all these women’s lies does not undo pervasive cultural misogyny any more than slamming ALL men advances women in any way. We must all find a less absolute, more effective way of making this argument.
patrick September 18th, 2009
12:13 am

#35

Rape shield laws, like “hate crime” laws, are a net loss for society in my opinion. The idea that some victims are more vulnerable than others does nothing constructive to help men and women (or blacks and whites, gays and straights, etc.) to reach any sort of comfortable understanding. These laws will only make us more wary of each others’ differences, and how effective are they in practice?

As to the question about whether a woman’s sexual history is useful or necessary evidence in a he said/she said trial, I would say it depends. If he said/she said is the only evidence present, I would be tempted to throw the case out for lack of evidence. And of course, that would be very sad in a case where the woman was truly raped. But no amount of law can guarantee fairness in justice at all times. It is impossible. Using rape shield laws to try to balance the equation seems like it would do more harm than good… as in, let’s just hope we convicted a guilty man rather than an innocent one? This is society picking the winners and losers ad hominim, based on broad generalities of culture. Using cultural studies to constantly update what should be a simple rule of law is dangerous territory.
patrick September 18th, 2009
12:40 am

#36

It’s fine for over-educated types to come up with ideas like “we live in a rape culture” – it’s something to think about and discuss. It’s when government gets involved that things go awry, every time.

Since when can government do a good job raising awareness and/or changing peoples’ values? I would suspect that most college-age kids today have been exposed to plenty of information and propaganda that attempts to shape their values. So how’s that going?

The only point I’m trying to make is that “Rape culture,” however the over-educated define it now, or later, is best addressed as something to discuss, not take legal or authoritative action on. Because it is too broad to qualify.
kza September 18th, 2009
2:31 am

#37

Rape Me was a pretty good song by Nirvana. Great band.
Steve September 18th, 2009
2:58 am

#38

Baraqiel: “Bob, Jay, Steve, Anon, etc: You’re all arguing the wrong thing”

You plainly haven’t bothered to read what I wrote except to determine that I don’t share your worldview. Your claim that I’m arguing “the wrong thing” therefore misses the mark by a wide margin

Barqiel: “All that means is that you haven’t done the prerequisite research.”

Would the term “prerequisite research” include actually reading that which you purport to be responding to?
Lance September 18th, 2009
4:22 am

#39

Since the term is thrown about so casually, it’s important to point out that there is no such thing as a “rape culture.” The so-called “rape culture” is, at best, a figment of self-serving feminist fantasy and, at worst, a vile attempt to institutionalize misandry.
Paul Elam September 18th, 2009
5:22 am

#40

@ Natalie
@ Polstergeist

The numbers sound high to me as well. I think Pierce Harlan was quite correct in his conclusion that the type of research available doesn’t give us anything empirical to serve as reliable indicator. But we do know, just like we know with rape, that it happens and that it is a significant problem.

But heres the rub. Bantering statistics are fine for forum discussions, but completely unnecessary in the application of criminal justice. We don’t need to know how many women are raped to justly convict a man who has raped someone. And we don’t need statistical analysis of false reports to convict someone for making one.

As in any other criminal matter, the only thing of any importance is evidence that convinces a jury of a persons guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Everything else is just coffee klatch conjecture.

In the matter of the Innocence Project releases that were simply a matter of convicting the wrong perpetrator, there is no worries for the victim of the rape regarding false allegation, though it should raise serious questions about how the wrong man was convicted in the first place. The subtext of that, of course, frequently goes back to rape shield laws that cater to feminist activism rather than the valid pursuit of justice.

Remember, false allegations need to be proven. And the burden of that proof is considerably heavy. You have to prove that one, no rape happened (hard enough in itself) and two, that the accuser knowingly and intentionally filed a false report.

Paranoid fears of scaring off victims that lead us to hesitate to prosecute false accusers encourage the behavior and of course undermine the credibility of real victims.

When we don’t practice due diligence in criminal investigations, as we frequently don’t with rape, it is ultimately innocent men and real rape victims that suffer the most from it.

The answer to that is the simple and strict application of the law, which has been made increasingly difficult with current cultural influences.

This is what is so defeating about Hess’s perspective. We have reality, which is that almost all people loathe rapists and want them behind bars. And then we have Hess’s imaginary world where misogynistic conspirators huddle in dark corners and scheme to institutionalize the victimization of women.

The points about whether we there are double standards for men and women regarding sexual behavior are fair enough, but a red herring nonetheless. The only thing that matters in the Hofstra story is who belongs behind bars.

The facts seem to be pointing pretty clearly at one person.
Pierce Harlan September 18th, 2009
8:04 am

#41

“I think we should also be wary of necessarily considering a recantation as evidence of a non-rape.”

Natalie, you are absolutely correct. Prof. Kanin specifically dealt with the reliability of the recantations in his study. Almost all were made after the accuser was presented with strong evidence that the alleged rape just didn’t happen. I have seen cases where recantations are not accepted by the court, and I almost always respect those decisions.

I appreciate the reasonable tone of your query. I would note that many from what can rightfully be called the sexual grievance industry adopt a different tone about recantations. They posit that every recantation should automatically be suspect — but, of course, every rape claim must automatically be believed.

The fact is, women, like men, lie about everything under the sun but, mirabile dictu, according to the sexual grievance industry, the subject of rape acts as a truth serum, a magic elixir, that forces anyone not possessing a Y-Chromosome to speak incontrovertible truth. When it comes to rape, one gender is incapable of telling a lie while the other is incapable of telling anything but lies. By reasson of an accusation alone, men and boys accused of rape are guilty by reason of penis. And women must always be believed EXCEPT, of course, when they recant their rape claim — in that instance, they automatically revert to pathological liar status — double-X chromosome be damned.

One word to those who think punishing false accusers is somehow going to deter real victims from coming forward: First, since when do we fight serious criminality in one area, such as rape, by refusing to punish serious criminality in another area, such as lying about rape? Since when do we tell one class of victims that their victimization is less deserving of our protection than another? Men and boys falsely accused of rape are “real victims,” too, and they often suffer tremendously. Their victimization shouldn’t be marginalized in the name of fighting a different crime.

If we want to really help rape victims, we would stem the epidemic of false rape claims by treating false rape claims much more seriously in order to deter the rape liars. Wouldn’t it be nice NOT to have reason to disbelieve women when they cry rape?
jules September 18th, 2009
9:17 am

#42

Amanda, thanks for bringing up this issue…its important.

The question, gentlemen, is NOT, I repeat NOT “What should we do about false rape accusers?”

The question is, “WHY a woman would falsify rape in the first place?”

What sort of culture breeds the idea that it is better to fake a rape, than admit that you are a sexual person?
Silenced is Foo September 18th, 2009
9:32 am

#43

tl;dr. However, ctrl-F “camera” or “cellphone” reveals nothing.

They got off because there was EVIDENCE PROVING THEIR INNOCENCE in the form of a cellphone-camera tape of some of the sex. The fact that you omitted this crucial piece of information and instead did the usual horseshiat about “we will never know what happened”.

You are so intent on hating these innocent men that you’re supporting their accuser despite the fact that she is the worst kind of sleaze. If I had to choose between being raped once by 4 guys and spending 5-25 years in prison for a crime I didn’t commit, I’d take the rape. I get to have my life back after that.

You disgust me as much as a real rapist does.

@Jules

Yes, the question of why a woman’s feelings could be hurt about being promiscuous is far more important than the fact that she nearly destroyed 4 lives on her say so.

Morons. You are all morons.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
9:47 am

#44

@Bob:

I feel that the justice system has a lot of problems and that solving those problems would be simple if we just used some common sense.

On false accusation sources:

“However I must say that I do not need a degree in women’s studies or sociology or for that matter to have any exceptional degree of intelligence to see where false accusations come from. They come from the ones making the accusations and them alone.”

Maybe I was unclear. Why do you think that those individuals are making the false accusation of rape? We are all aware of how awful a thing rape is, no? Those who have been raped will respond just as badly to a false accuser as those who have been falsely accused.

Sure, it comes from the accuser. But the question you have to ask yourself is, why?

And unfortunately, your view on why is undeniably simple and nonfunctional:

“They happen so often because the accusers are virtually never held to account for what they have done and therefore can do so with impunity.”

They are, in fact, held to intense account for it. Perhaps not legally but you are aware that she is at the very least suspended and may in fact get expelled. She will be ostracised by her female friends for being the girl who cried wolf (hurting rape victims) and she will be ostracised by her male friends for destroying several young men’s reputations.

She, like many false accusers in legal cases, is also liable for lawsuit and may now live in fear that those young men may decide to take back some of their lives from her financial hide.

She is not spared.

So quite honestly, you need to think a little deeper on this subject. Rape and sex have some very screwed up social elements surrounding them. If you do the research, put the puzzle pieces together and look without bias, you’ll see a surprising and dangerous pattern. A pattern that harms both women /and/ men. It is important that we fight this pattern for the sake of all of us.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
9:55 am

#45

@Paul:

Don’t be silly. The statistics don’t lie. The sheer numbers of women subjected to sexual violence outpaces the sheer numbers of men subjected to sexual violence by a horrifying degree.

An anti-rape culture? You might want to think before you speak. The concept that women are these innocent beings that must be coerced into sex is in fact /part/ of the rape culture. It is so named because it contributes to the high amount of rapes. But it also robs many heterosexual relationships of healthy intimacy, hurts men through false accusations and creates slut shaming and virgin shaming for women and men.

Come now. This so called imaginary concept has widespread effects throughout our culture, harming women /and/ men. The fact that you’re too busy trying to smear feminism as some kind of misandrist hate machine to actually think about what the concepts mean should be adequate evidence that you hardly have the grasp necessary to critique said concepts.

A valid criticism of how rape cases are handled is the release of info to the press. And that? That is a valid criticism of every facet of our justice system. The fact that we release names, photos and information vitae on alleged crime perpetrators without a guilty conviction is utterly unacceptable. And it is done with far more than just rape. So really, stop trying to make that criticism only apply to one thing. It is clear that it is more a problem of our information obsessed culture than anything else.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
10:57 am

#46

Jules – “The question is, “WHY a woman would falsify rape in the first place?” “

Well the simple answer is that she didn’t want her boyfriend to find out that she IS A SLUT, and did cheat on him, and will likely cheat on him again.

I’m just going to drop-in the same comments I recently posted on the latest item regarding this story over at The False Rape Society:

Right on cue!

The New York Post interviewed her boyfriend – “Twisted motive behind rape story:
Hofstra gal feared being branded a tramp after romp”:

“The Hofstra freshman who had a raunchy restroom romp and then cried rape made up the twisted tale because she didn’t want her schoolmates — particularly her new boyfriend — to think she was easy, the beau told The Post yesterday.

“I think she needs a psychologist. She probably felt like, ‘They’ll think I’m a slut,’ ” her boyfriend, who asked not to be identified, told The Post.”

Of course she’s a slut. If we were to decide that all slut’s needed psychological counseling, we would need to increase the number of practicing psychologists ten-fold (at least).

I couldn’t stomach all of Amanda Hess’s steaming pile, but from what i did read, she attribute false rapes to the patriarchy “forcing” women to lie about their sexuality. Apparently women fear “slut-shaming”.

So, let me get this straight: women don’t need men (per se), but they do need men to “validate” their promiscuity?

Fat chance! There are perfectly valid reasons for men to reject promiscuous women as relationship partners. If women want to be sluts, they need to “own it”.

And, when they start to whine about how men don’t suffer from “slut-shaming”, they need to come to grips with the reality that it is WOMEN who do not reject promiscuous men (but, rather admire them as proven sex partners – women admire “studs” far, far more than do other men). In fact, the shaming men will more often get from women is for being (older) virgins.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
11:26 am

#47

@slwerner:

Reading is hard, isn’t it?

“So, let me get this straight: women don’t need men (per se), but they do need men to “validate” their promiscuity?”

No, moron, the word slut itself is negative and asinine to be applied. Which was her whole point. A man who has a ton of sex with a bunch of people is only called a man whore by a very small component of the population. Normally that makes him a stud or “a pretty cool guy”. Yet girls are sluts when we do the same thing? And ridiculed? Fuck that shit. There is nothing wrong with having and enjoying sex. Or having sex with a lot of folk. Or even having sex with multiple folk.

Long as you aren’t cheating on folks (which makes you a cheater, not a slut/stud) or spreading diseases (which makes you an unsafe asshole, not a slut/stud) you aren’t doing anything wrong when you have a lot of sex. This should apply to everyone. Not just guys. Get over your double standard.

I also said (and you’ll notice Amanda didn’t once disagree) several times that men suffer from this same shit in the comment right above yours. Even brought up the concept of mocking virgin guys as an example. But hey, I know reading is hard. I’m sure hooked on phonics can work for you.
jules September 18th, 2009
11:31 am

#48

slwerner: Wow. Its WOMENS fault that promicuous men get away with sleeping around, and its WOMENS OWN fault we get labled “sluts” when we do the same? And men are never to blame for negative labeling?

As someone who has been slut-shamed, for having sex with ONE GUY, I can personally tell you, he recieved plenty of accolades for “conquering” me from his jock ass-wipe guy buddies. Have you ever been slut shamed? Do you know how it feels to be judged for being a sexual person? Has anyone ever told you you must “have low self esteem” for sleeping with someone?

It feels like shit, just so you know. And it leads someone to believe in something like rape culture. But I guess you never really will fucking understand.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
12:00 pm

#49

recursiveparadox – ”…you aren’t doing anything wrong when you have a lot of sex. This should apply to everyone. Not just guys. Get over your double standard.”

You have quite wrong. I don’t care how much sex anyone else has, nor who they have it with. My point is that each and every individual needs to “own” his or her behaviors and any subsequent consequences thereof.

Don’t like the fact that promiscuous men suffer less penalty than do promiscuous women? Then, by all means, feel free to reject promiscuous men, ladies. In fact, I’d encourage you to do so.

The problem is that it is WOMEN who don’t reject promiscuous men – even though there are also many good reasons for them to do so. It’s called free-will.

And yes, I did see that “virgin-shaming” had been mentioned previously. My only point is that men are MORE LIKELY to encounter that, than they are to encounter any male “slut-shaming”.

@Jules:

Regardless of what happened to you (and, yes, I think it is ridiculous to shame a person for sex – especially for sex with one person), the fact remains that Danmell Ndonye IS A SLUT, who CHEATED on her boyfriend with not one, but FIVE other men. She needs to own that. She did not need to initiate a process which could have easily sent her five lovers to prison just to save her reputation.

I, and quite a few others, would choose to call her behaviors slutty. You may call them what ever you prefer. I have no power over her, nor you. My words are no more meaningful than yours. Neither of us will have a say in the rest of Danmell Ndonye’s life, her relationships, in the punishment she should rightfully receive for her devious acts, nor her choices to change her ways, or continue to skank it up.

Frankly, if a woman chooses to cheat on her partner, it’s her choice. But, no one else should have to suffer the consequence (instead of her) for HER selfish acts.

If women wish to be “empowered” to what ever they choose, then they also need to be likewise “empowered” to suffer the consequences – not find a man to blame.
Nagging Feeling September 18th, 2009
12:31 pm

#50

Is a false reporting of a rape a bad thing? You bet, but I can’t help but feel a lot of the outrage is less about a false accusation and more about feminism and misandry. Rape and false rape accusations can be discussed without using buzzwords (see Lance @39) and it does a disservice to the problem at large to use false rape accusations as a hook to complain about feminism (when, frankly, I am not sure they are connected. It isn’t as if false accusations existed ONLY after feminism).
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
12:43 pm

#51

@Steve – No, I understand what you’re saying, but it has nothing to do with Amanda’s argument. The discussion of whether or not the names of the accused and the accusers in criminal trials should be released to the press is an interesting one with significant repercussions for the way our legal system operates, and should be addressed with respect to all crimes, not just rape cases. However, this post is not about that, it’s about how our culture interacts with sexuality. Ergo: you are arguing something that has nothing to do with the topic of the post to which you are replying. Since it is a non sequitur, it is the wrong thing to be arguing.

@slwerner – Why is it slutty for a woman to have a consensual sexual encounter with multiple men at once?
Amanda Hess September 18th, 2009
1:19 pm

#52

In case anyone in this thread is interested, I wrote a story about a very similar case at Catholic University last year. The young woman accused her friend and three other young men of raping her in a CUA dormitory. In the story, I decided not to name the accuser or the accused in fairness to everyone involved.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
1:34 pm

#53

“Why is it slutty for a woman to have a consensual sexual encounter with multiple men at once?”

Why was she so ashamed of what she’d chosen to do that she decided to lie to her boyfriend. If it’s not slutty, and nothing to be ashamed of, why not just come right out and tell him, “I was having sex in the restroom with five guys I just met, because that’s the way I roll. You don’t own me. You don’t own my body. If you don’t like it, were through.”?

If you want to have sex with multiple men, by all means, go right ahead. Not only can I not stop you, I don’t even want to stop you. I want you to be free to do what you want to do.

But, I want you to accept any and all consequences that may arise – not find some men to cast the blame on.

And, as to the word “slutty”, why would the words of some man you’ve never met (and likely never will) mean anything to you at all.

If you’d prefer to call cheating on a partner with multiple men something else (empowerment? self-actualization? freedom? “you go grrl!”?), please, by all means, do so. I use the word “slutty” because that’s how I see it. My use of that word can only effect Danmell Ndonye (or you) to the extent that she (or you) lets it.

We should just agree to disagree in that regard.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
2:01 pm

#54

@slwerner – “Why was she so ashamed of what she’d chosen to do that she decided to lie to her boyfriend. If it’s not slutty, and nothing to be ashamed of, why not just come right out and tell him, “I was having sex in the restroom with five guys I just met, because that’s the way I roll. You don’t own me. You don’t own my body. If you don’t like it, were through.”?”

Well, that’s sort of what the whole article up there is about.

“But, I want you to accept any and all consequences that may arise – not find some men to cast the blame on.”

But you say this as if the consequences arise on their own with no agency behind it. You make the choice to call a woman a slut. You calling a woman a slut is 100% your responsibility and your fault. It is not the natural consequence of an action. It is your choice. As such, if someone that you call a slut wants to blame you for you calling her a slut, that’s perfectly reasonable, because it is your fault that you called her a slut.

Words matter because they have meaning. When you call a woman a slut, you’re calling her dirty, worthless, a person of low character and low self-esteem — in other words, you’re insulting her entire person. Why should that matter? Because it’s mean and hurtful. I’m pretty sure you know that, because why else would you go around talking to strangers on the internet about how this woman “IS A SLUT”? That’s a spiteful and unkind thing to do — why would you ever do that to a stranger?
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
2:06 pm

#55

Oh, and you didn’t answer my question — I understand that you see her actions as slutty, but why do you see them that way? What about her actions makes them slutty to you?
slwerner September 18th, 2009
2:16 pm

#56

Baraquiel – “Why should that matter? Because it’s mean and hurtful. I’m pretty sure you know that, because why else would you go around talking to strangers on the internet about how this woman “IS A SLUT”? That’s a spiteful and unkind thing to do — why would you ever do that to a stranger?”

You’re right! My calling some slut for what she IS is so much worse than 5 men going to prison so that she can pretend she is not the slut that she is.

I see her actions as slutty because she chose to cheat on her boyfriend to have sex with five random men.

That she chose to file rape charges against them, well, that’s just despicable.

Had she not been cheating on her boyfriend, I’d have called her a skank instead. You can call her what ever you’d like.

Oh, and feel free to call me any names you’d like as well.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
2:23 pm

#57

“My calling some slut for what she IS is so much worse than 5 men going to prison so that she can pretend she is not the slut that she is.”

I didn’t put any statements of comparison into my comment, but it’s interesting that you interpreted one there. Falsely accusing someone of a crime is a bad thing to do, but I can at least understand someone’s motives for doing it — there’s a clear gain there for the person who’s doing the bad thing (which, again, is a bad, bad thing to do to someone). But I don’t understand what you get out of insulting a stranger on the internet. Again: why are you doing this?

So cheating on your significant other makes you a slut? Does that apply to men and women, or just women? Is it important that there were five men as opposed to one? Or that they were “random” men?
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
2:43 pm

#58

@slwerner

“You have quite wrong. I don’t care how much sex anyone else has, nor who they have it with. My point is that each and every individual needs to “own” his or her behaviors and any subsequent consequences thereof.”

When the subsequent consequences are based on a sexist double standard for what is acceptable or unacceptable, it is impossible to own them because one is not perpetuating them with one’s own actions.

Also, considering you call girls who have tons of sex with multiple people sluts, you are engaging in slut shaming. So if you don’t care, then you have a very strange way of being accepting of other people’s sexual habits. Or, you do care and are a two faced lying piece of shit.

“Don’t like the fact that promiscuous men suffer less penalty than do promiscuous women? Then, by all means, feel free to reject promiscuous men, ladies. In fact, I’d encourage you to do so.”

This is a shit solution.

Would you like to know why? Because there is nothing wrong with promiscuity. Nothing. At. All.

So if everyone ostracizes promiscuous men, this solves nothing with promiscuous women. Learn how cause and effect works, bro.

“And yes, I did see that “virgin-shaming” had been mentioned previously. My only point is that men are MORE LIKELY to encounter that, than they are to encounter any male “slut-shaming”.”

…that was my point too. I’m still trying to figure out why you want to extend slut shaming to men instead of freeing up all people from shame to be sexual beings.

“Why was she so ashamed of what she’d chosen to do that she decided to lie to her boyfriend?”

Because we shame people for having sex with multiple people by calling them sluts, you idiot. Also likely that her and her boyfriend had a monogamy model relationship, wherein the rules don’t allow sex with multiple people.

Of course, that would make her a cheater, not a slut, but clearly you didn’t think of that didja, champ?

Is it really so hard to see that you are a part of the problem? Wait, I forgot. You don’t even seem aware that the word slut itself is part of the problem. God the fail, it gives me headaches.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
2:46 pm

#59

“Again: why are you doing this?”

I emphatically reject your assertion that my words can harm her at all. I chose the language that I use, just as I am certain that you do. I seriously doubt that you refrain from using derogatory terms when discussing men.

“So cheating on your significant other makes you a slut? Does that apply to men and women, or just women? Is it important that there were five men as opposed to one? Or that they were “random” men?”

It certainly applies both ways. I’ve never given men a “pass”, not even friends of mine. Cheating with one would qualify as sluttiness in my book. “Five” and “random” are just “enhancers”.

If you truly believe that what she did (cheating with five random men in a restroom) was appropriate, empowering, and even honorable, why don’t you just come right out and say so?
Ted September 18th, 2009
2:52 pm

#60

The people on here talking about “rape culture” are idiots. It is completely idiotic to try and excuse a false report of rape by claiming that societal standards forced them to.

Most people, men and women, would find sleeping with 5 people slutty. Sleeping with a different guy ever week is slutty.

Also, there is no such thing as “virgin shaming.” If you are an attractive guy who is a virgin, men and women will respect that. You only get “shamed” if you are a virgin and ugly. So it would more appropriately be called, “ugly shaming.”

The fear of being called a slut does not justify false accusations. Don’t want to be called a slut? Don’t havev sex. Simple. A lot of you “feminist” on here are throwing around so many half-assed stereotypes and generalizations. NOT ALL MEN GO AROUND SLEEPING WITH DOZENS OF WOMEN.

In fact, if you look at STD rates, women are infected at higher rates than men. Can’t get an STD if you aren’t having sex. Very telling statistic if you ask me.

“This is part of why sex workers, erotica actresses and sensual women who aren’t afraid to be sexual are so universally hated and mistreated.”

No. Men porn stars are looked down upon by society as well. YES, MEN! You have horrible “logic.”

People that have more sex partners are more likely to get diseases. FACT!

With all the diseases crawling around nowadays, why would anyone want to sleep with or have a relationship with someone who has slept with lots of people.

If I were a woman, I wouldn’t have sex with men who sleept with a lot of women. As another poster said, women CHOOSE not to exercise the power of choice when deciding whether or not to be involved with men who sleep around a lot. Men, as a whole, do not accept promiscuous behavior from women.

If you want to try and blame this double standard for women falsely accusing men of rape, then it is just as fair for me to say that an unfair child-support system is to blame for the the numerous absentee fathers in the U.S. Both are just excuses.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
3:04 pm

#61

recursiveparadox – ”Also, considering you call girls who have tons of sex with multiple people sluts, you are engaging in slut shaming. So if you don’t care, then you have a very strange way of being accepting of other people’s sexual habits.”

Frankly, I DO consider them to be sluts (I hold men in the same regard). I have every right to do so.

I also recognize that they have every right to do as they see fit. If they are too weak to ignore what others think, I consider that yet another character flaw. My suggestion is, to both men and women, if you CHOOSE to be promiscuous, then be strong enough to OWN it. You decide what’s right for you, not let others dictate it to you.

The idea that men must accommodate women’s promiscuity (rather than women come to reject men’s promiscuity) in order to achieve equality is absurd. There are many problems associated with sexual promiscuity (diseases, reduced ability to form pair-bonds, lack of perceived satisfaction with subsequent monogamous relationships) that one should consider when selecting for a long-term mate. I see no valid argument for why either men or women should have to reject these considerations.

And, in cases of infidelity, as we see here with Danmell Ndonye, consequences can be more immediate. She obviously feared that her wanton promiscuity would cause her boyfriend to reject her. That should be his choice. Should women have to accept cheating by their male partners? If one does accept/forgive cheating by a partner, it almost assures that such cheating WILL be repeated. If someone is NOT OKAY with their partner having sexual relations with others, they should be free to feel that way – and not be subjected to having it rammed down their throats.

These are the consequences I’m referring to – not the anguish a woman feels for how society views her sexual behavior.

And still, such consequences pale in comparison to what she would have seen done to protect the “honor” she no longer had. Prison for five men hardly equates to the “value” of one woman’s reputation.
Ted September 18th, 2009
3:14 pm

#62

recursiveparadox;

Your problem lies in the fact that our society is not based on promiscuity. People usually gete married to one partner and have kids. For this reason, people who do not adhere to the rule of seeking out one partner, with as few “turnover partners” as possible, are labeled sluts.

It is especially funny to hear women argue your point. The entire concept of marriage is based upon being married to one person who is you “soulmate”. People take vows to stay with one another and love one another for life.

So, that being said, doesn’t it seem somewhat hypocritical that someone who actually believed in marriage would have sex prior to getting married? There is nothing honorable about marrying a slutty woman. Honor aside, what makes one think that someone who has slept with numerous people their entire life can suddenly settle down with one person.

There is this saying that anything done in repetition will inevitably become a habit. I doubt that someone who is used to sleepinig with a new partner every month, or maybe even year, could manage a long term relationship.

There is also the aspect of “sloppy seconds.” It is not just men who are not comfortable with taking someone elses “leftovers.” People in life always want the best and in this society women are put up on a pedestal and given more prestige than the deserve.

I have yet to see a feminist decry the “old fashioned” acts of opening doors for women, paying for dates, and pulling out her chair. If women are so independent, why don’t they do it themselves?

If you are going to make youself out to be this “prize” worth pursuing, which society does to women, you better be a prize worth pursuing because there is nothing special about women who sleep around.

I would have more respect for a woman who was gorgeous and waited till marriage to have sex, than a woman who was equally beautiful but slept around a lot. The first woman displays self-discipline, standards, and self-respect. The latter does not.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
3:15 pm

#63

“I emphatically reject your assertion that my words can harm her at all.”

It’s not your place to decide whether or not it is; it’s the place of the victim. If other people say that having been called a slut harms them, then you don’t have any grounds to disagree (e.g. Jules, “It feels like shit, just so you know”).

In any event, that still doesn’t answer my question of why you would insult a stranger. So, yet again: why?

“If you truly believe that what she did (cheating with five random men in a restroom) was appropriate, empowering, and even honorable, why don’t you just come right out and say so?”
I have no opinion about her actions, frankly. I’m trying to understand what it is about her actions that make them so offensive to you that you would insult her in caps lock on a public forum. Why is having sex with multiple people slutty? Why is having sex with people you don’t know very well slutty? Or, from a different angle: how would you define the word slut?

@Ted – “In fact, if you look at STD rates, women are infected at higher rates than men. Can’t get an STD if you aren’t having sex. Very telling statistic if you ask me.”

Actually, there are very clear biological reasons for this statistic, if true. The vaginal canal is a mucus membrane, like the inside of your nose, ears, or throat. It is much easier to contract diseases through a mucus membrane than through skin. Only the glans of the penis is a mucus membrane. As such, men have much less genital surface area that is susceptible to attack by pathogens. Moreover, many STI symptoms present internally in women, such that they are harder to observe and therefore to treat. So, STI infection rates aren’t at all a reliable indicator of relative sexual activity rates, especially when you consider demographic differences concerning who is more likely to use barrier contraception methods and when.
Bob September 18th, 2009
3:34 pm

#64

@recursiveparadox and everyone who supports the “rape culture” theory,

Here is a post that I wrote on a website that is very much on the male friendly side of things. I find it very interesting that the tone of the argument is very similar to the one here.

“I should have known that this would turn into a debate about sexual mores in our society and the valuation or devaluation of the sexual act by participation of multiple parties. None of that is important. If some girl wants to get banged by multiple guys then let her have at it. If a bunch of guys want to get it on with one girl who consents what do I care. If one guy likes it when he’s got two or more then good for him! I kinda like that myself!
Whether you like it or not it falls in the range of typical human behavior. You may not understand or like it but you don’t have to either. You also have to understand that these people in question were all young dumb and full of cum, or in cum, whatever the case may be. It is still their business and none of mine.
What is of concern to me is the false rape accusation and how easy it is for one person to ruin the lives of so many others. What is of equal concern is the over idealization of the woman in this case. First, it is as if simply because she consents to having sex with more than one guy she is somehow a victim and that the men involve are a bunch of dirt bags. Not so. Second, as I watched the DA’s press conference on the matter she predictably framed the accuser as having “serious psychological problems” and is in need of “serious help.”
As far as I am concerned there is no other explanation to the situation other than upon waking up the next morning decided that if she didn’t do something real soon that she may be seen as a slut. So what did she do? She lied! And damn near destroyed the lives of five innocent men. That is the real perversion here.”

You see even Men’s Rights advocates tend to over idealize women and I take issue with that as much as I do the whole rape culture theory that excuses people of wrong doing.
This is a sentiment that I cannot understand:

“They are, in fact, held to intense account for it. Perhaps not legally but you are aware that she is at the very least suspended and may in fact get expelled. She will be ostracised by her female friends for being the girl who cried wolf (hurting rape victims) and she will be ostracised by her male friends for destroying several young men’s reputations.

She, like many false accusers in legal cases, is also liable for lawsuit and may now live in fear that those young men may decide to take back some of their lives from her financial hide.

She is not spared.”

Excuse me? Was she thrown in jail? Did she get her name smeared all over the TV? Did she lose her job the next day as a few of those guys did? Will her face forever be remembered and associated with a terrible violent act? No to all of these.

Oh yes but she might get kicked out of school, or might become unpopular, or might get….OMG…SUED!
Your point is?
That to me is nothing but a bunch of poor dear needs a tissue talk to me. She deserves to get kicked out of school, become unpopular, and those men accused deserve some redress for the wrong done to them and no one should feel any sympathy for her because of that. She also deserves to go to jail. When you do something wrong it is only right that you should have to deal with the consequences isn’t it?

She made a rational decision to lie based on the assumption that they were probably going to believe her, which they did until someone had proof in the form of a video (I shudder to think what would have happened to those guys if there wasn’t a cell phone handy at the time). And if the DA doesn’t prosecute her than she would have been correct in her assumption that she might not pay any REAL consequences, like going to jail for a class b felony charge which is what this is. As far as I am concerned she, like most others who cry rape falsely, made a rational decision based on an analysis of the risks. And I dare say that she may indeed get away with it when she should not.

I guess that makes me undeniably simple and non functional.
Ted September 18th, 2009
3:36 pm

#65

Several things are wrong with this. First off, herpes rates are higher among women and it is srpead by skin-to-skin contact, not by mucous secretions. If women’s symptoms are more internal, you would think that they would go untreated and therefore infect more men at higher rates.

More partners = higher risk of STD contraction. This is an undisputed fact.

In your last sentence, it sounds as if you are saying that women are not intelligent enough to use contraception. Either that, or they are “coerced” into not using it. I have always found “coercion” a funny topic to talk about regarding relationships, especially since some of the posters on here used it to rationalize the actions that some women make. Why would any woman stay with a man that would try and force her to do something she wasn’t comfortable with. It speaks strongly to a lot of womens’ lack of self-esteem.
slwerner September 18th, 2009
3:39 pm

#66

baraqiel – “In any event, that still doesn’t answer my question of why you would insult a stranger. So, yet again: why?”

She’s not reading this, so she suffers no insult from my words. I’m not inclined to sugar-coat what she has done. She has been promiscuous, she has cheated on her partner, and worst of all, she then accused her other sex-partners of rape (potentially causing them to be imprisoned, and certainly wreaking great havoc in their lives for many years to come).

Even in the unlikely event she did read this, why should she not suffer the insult? What makes her so f*cking special? What about the men who suffered REAL harm by her self-serving lies?

Oh! wait! That’s right, your a feminist – so the lives of men don’t mean sh*t to you.
Amanda Hess September 18th, 2009
3:44 pm

#67

Wait, is Ted attempting to scientifically prove that women are sluttier than men? Can we please keep this thread going forever?
Ted September 18th, 2009
3:45 pm

#68

Oh yes, one other thing. One guy on here brought up a good point. Why don’t feminists ever complain about how many women get out of crimes, be it murder, molestation, rape, stealing and other things, by claiming “psychological issues” or that they were “abused as a child.” They always get “treatment” while men do hard time.
Matt September 18th, 2009
3:51 pm

#69

‘Rape culture’…. ‘Rape culture”….

OK, hmmm, how to address this.

I am not sure I can say much about such a phrase except to liken it to referring to our present society as a “Magnesium sulfate culture’. Both phrases are equally meaningless.

The author of this essay immediately turns from the matter of the fact that the false accuser nearly destroyed the lives of the guys she had had sex with not too long ago to whether or not there is a double-standard in society about how men and women are judged vis-a-vis their sexual permissiveness.

It’s fair to talk about that. But that isn’t the point of what has happened here. The point is that these five guys were, upon a mere assertion from someone else, jailed and effectively presumed guilty. It took the provision of proof in the form of a cell phone video to get her to start telling the truth and admit that she had made the story up.

On top of that, the false accuser’s name doesn’t get disclosed while the names of all five of the guys get disclosed. While most people will accept that the accuser was (finally) telling the truth that she made the story up, there will always be some people who will believe the men did something wrong, despite the cell phone video the police and DA says they had. Does the essayist actually think their lives will not be adversely affected by what has happened here? Will it not affect their relationship with their families back home?

The false accuser nearly ruined five innocent men’s lives before they even got off the ground. As it stands, she has placed serious obstacles in their way, even so. Meanwhile she faces no charges and at the moment, the police are talking to the press about her as if she “needs help.” Yeah, she needs help. She also needs to be charged with a criminal offense (or two, or three) for what she has done and face the music. But since we live in a ‘Culture of nymphotropism’, I doubt that will happen.
Ted September 18th, 2009
3:55 pm

#70

Actually, I believe that men would be classified as “sluttier” but it is women who as a whole sleep around more.

For instance, a group of fifty people, 25 male 25 female, ten males might two partners each which means that twenty women had sex. So while the men who had sex had more partners, it was the women who percentage-wise had more sex as a population.

In real life, this has been my observation. Women love to take the few guys who sleep around a lot and use that as the model for all men.

No one likes slutty women. Not men or women. Women don’t like them because they get all the (bad)attention and men don’t like except for an easy lay. Other than that, they have no interest.

I wouldn’t be suprised if the boyfriend of the girl in the story was a “nice guy.” Speaking from personal experience, that’s usually what slutty chicks do when they try to clean up their rep. They try and find a guy on campus who doesn’t know how much of slut they are so that they can try and do the whole “good girl” ploy. Luckily a friend let me in on the matter.
Natalie September 18th, 2009
4:14 pm

#71

@ Ted

I am not going to argue for or against your point, but I want to make sure I (and everyone else) am clear on your scenario and logic.

You set up a scenario with 25 men and 25 women. Ten of the men have sex (40% of male population) each with 2 different women, meaning 20 women (80% of female population) are having sex with only one man each. You deem the men as “sluttier” because each of them is sleeping with two women, but also say the women are sleeping around more.

1. How many partners does it take to be slutty? In this situation, you seem to say that two partners makes a slut.

2. How is it considered sleeping around if you only have one sexual partner, as do each of the 20 women in this scenario you say are sleeping around more?

3. The idea that the women as a whole are having more sex is false. The women and men are having the same amount of sex (as would be expected in hetero sex), but the distribution across the population is different. More women are engaging in sex here than men, but men and women are having the same amount of sex. This is not the same point you make which is that women as a whole are sleeping around more and that women as a population are having more sex.
Ted September 18th, 2009
4:26 pm

#72

Do not take the scenario out of context. It is merely an example. You can scale up the numbers to make it more relevant.

Given the fact that women love to spread the lie that men sleep around more than women (sleeping around meaning having sex), more UNIQUE women have sex than men. Of course the sex would have to be 50/50 since it takes a man and woman to have sex, but the distribution of who is having the sex is where the numbers shift. More unique women have sex than men, in my experience.

Women are sleeping around more, depending on how you define the word “more.” I define it, and I think others would as well, by the number of unique people engaging in sexual activity.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
4:30 pm

#73

@Ted – “In your last sentence, it sounds as if you are saying that women are not intelligent enough to use contraception. Either that, or they are “coerced” into not using it.”

No. All I’m saying is that there are differences in the rates of barrier contraception usage across different ages, locations, income levels, and religious backgrounds. I’m not putting forth any reasons for why that might be; I’m only stating that the differences exist.

“First off, herpes rates are higher among women and it is srpead by skin-to-skin contact, not by mucous secretions.”

I’m not sure you understand — a mucous membrane and a mucous secretion are not the same thing. A mucous membrane is a type of tissue, not a substance that is secreted. Regardless, herpes is not transmitted through skin-to-skin contact, it is transmitted through contact between infected material (an open sore or bodily fluid) and a vulnerable point on the body (a wound or tear in the skin, or a mucous membrane). Again — it is more difficult for men to contract diseases such as herpes than it is for women to contract them. A woman having sex with an infected man is more at risk for contracting herpes from him than a man having sex with an infected woman.

@slwerner – “Even in the unlikely event she did read this, why should she not suffer the insult? What makes her so f*cking special? What about the men who suffered REAL harm by her self-serving lies?”

Did you not notice me calling her actions bad four times in a single sentence? Let me repeat: falsely accusing someone of a crime is a bad, morally reprehensible thing to do. But the justice system is working as designed in this case: the accused were released and the DA is beginning a criminal investigation towards the accuser. I’m pretty sure that the criminal justice system is a better means for punishing criminals than insults. Perhaps you disagree?

I’m also somewhat amazed that you’ve managed to directly quote me asking you a very simple question three times now without answering it. Okay, you don’t want to sugarcoat your view of her actions. Fine. But why are you inclined to comment at all? What is driving you to come here and insult this stranger in stringent terms? What do you gain? I reiterate again: why?

“Oh! wait! That’s right, your a feminist – so the lives of men don’t mean sh*t to you.”

You’re quite mistaken. There are a number of men about whom I care deeply, and in general I think most men are morally neutral in the same way that most women are morally neutral. I don’t want this sort of thing to happen. I don’t want men to be falsely accused of a terrible crime. I don’t want women to feel like such accusations are a good idea. I agree with Amanda that a culture that portrays a woman who has sex with strangers, or sex with multiple people, or sex outside of a relationship as a person of low moral character is a major contributing factor to why some women feel like they must repudiate their actions in this manner – in fact, it’s conceivable that, for example, people calling women who have sex with multiple people, or strangers, or both, “sluts” or “skanks” has something to do with why women some women feel the need to undertake such repudiation.

As I see it, the best way to protect men from false rape accusations is for rape to be less pervasive in our culture. According to the United States Department of Justice, 160,000 women reported being raped or sexually assaulted by men in 2006 — they estimate that only 16% of attacks are reported, and that therefore roughly 1 million rapes or sexual assaults were perpetrated upon women that year. That is a huge number. That is endemic. That number means that somewhere close to a million American men raped or sexually assaulted a women in 2006. When that many men are attacking women, accusing a man of attacking a woman isn’t that far-fetched, don’t you think? If rape was rare, accusing a man of rape would be much more incredible than is currently is, and it wouldn’t get the accuser very much at all. Compare rape to a much less common crime, like arson. Buildings burn down all the time without anyone being arrested for arson, because arson is rare. Now imagine if these five men had been cooking together with this woman, and a grease fire had started and her house burned down, and she accused the men of starting the fire on purpose. That would be bizarre, right? It’s hard to believe that five random guys off the street are arsonists. But it’s not hard to believe that five random guys off the street are rapists, because rape is *that* common.

Assuming that everything is as it appears to be, and this woman lied about not consenting to sex with these men, I think her actions are reprehensible. No one should be imprisoned for a crime of which they are innocent. But the best, the very best way to prevent people like her from being able to undertake such actions is by making it harder to believe them when they lie. The best way to do that is by making rape less common, and the people who have the power to do that are the people who make up the vast majority of rapists: men.
Natalie September 18th, 2009
4:32 pm

#74

@ Ted

Where did you get the data that supports your supposition that more individual women have sex than do individual men? If it is just anecdotal evidence based on your personal experiences, then this whole conversation is moot. I can just as easily show that, in my experience, I know more men who have had sex than women and that the men have each had more sexual partners than the women.

I think you are the only person I’ve ever heard define “sleeping around” simply as having sex. I have always heard that phrase used to refer to someone who has had multiple sexual partners, generally more than the arbitrary limit of “normal” that our society has in place.
L September 18th, 2009
4:34 pm

#75

Ted says: I wouldn’t be suprised if the boyfriend of the girl in the story was a “nice guy.” Speaking from personal experience, that’s usually what slutty chicks do when they try to clean up their rep. They try and find a guy on campus who doesn’t know how much of slut they are so that they can try and do the whole “good girl” ploy. Luckily a friend let me in on the matter.

Ha, excellent. So, you identify as a “nice guy,” right, Ted? And you also assume all women are sluts — either they outright act slutty in your estimation or they pretend to be “nice girls” to fix their slutty reputations.

And you probably wonder why no women want to date you. “Nice guys” who think all women are sluts ARE NOT NICE. Women don’t actually want to date assholes. And assuming that all women are sluts is asshole behavior.
Victor September 18th, 2009
4:35 pm

#76

Ted.. .you’re not really bright, are you?

“Sleeping around” doesn’t mean “having sex”. It implies that one is switching from one partner to another (that’s the “around” part, for people in the slow lane). In your little scenario, the men are “sleeping around” while the women are monogamous. Of course, your retarded little scenario isn’t specific enough to define whether the men are just involved in two monogamous relationships, or whether they are sleeping with two women at the same time.

I don’t even care about this, but the sheer stupidity had to drag me in.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
4:35 pm

#77

@Ted:

“It is completely idiotic to try and excuse a false report of rape by claiming that societal standards forced them to.”

The only idiot here is you, since you can’t read to save your life. Social brainwashing doesn’t force people to do things. It merely makes it a lot harder to not do them.

An addicted person can still stop, it just takes a shit ton more effort. Similar deal.

“If you are an attractive guy who is a virgin, men and women will respect that.”

This is utter bullshit. An attractive guy who is a virgin is often assumed to be gay or fucked up in the head in some way and treated even worse by the virgin shamers.

“The fear of being called a slut does not justify false accusations.”

Duh?

Being trained that you own women doesn’t justify rape either. Social conditioning doesn’t justify doing wrong things, it just provides an explanation for why these things are so common, you moron.

“In fact, if you look at STD rates, women are infected at higher rates than men.”

Source plz thx. XD

“No. Men porn stars are looked down upon by society as well. YES, MEN! You have horrible “logic.””

Really now? Who looks down on men in porn? Nearly every guy I know has this odd form of admiration for guys in porn.

Hint: It’s horrible logic to make bullshit assertions that you have no evidence for and act as evidence against.

“People that have more sex partners are more likely to get diseases. FACT!”

Important part of statistics class: Never forget confounding variables. If one does not engage in safe sex (protection, medical background checks) then it doesn’t matter if they’ve only slept with 2 people or 40 in their entire life. They’re still spread diseases.

Responsible promiscuity is the way to go if you’re going to go that way.

“With all the diseases crawling around nowadays, why would anyone want to sleep with or have a relationship with someone who has slept with lots of people.”

Because we aren’t paranoid like you and look for people who use safety and get tested constantly?

“If I were a woman, I wouldn’t have sex with men who sleept with a lot of women.”

You like inexperience and someone being shitty in bed? Wow.
arimom3@gmail.com September 18th, 2009
4:37 pm

#78

wow was just swinging by to read the story but the comments are priceless. come on girls the boys are cleaning your clocks intellectually, emotionally, factually and with reality. is it really the difficult to recognize we are sometimes not angelic and part of the problem… and we are accountable and resposible as adults… the way you girls prattle on, i am convinced that you view women as perpetual infants. trust me, as you all sound very young, set down your marilyn french reader, back away from the faux ivory towers, and please join us in the real world, where real experiences and real life can educate you just as much, if not more. the sayings, the strawwoman arguments, the adhominem attacks… it all reads like my fiver year olds tea party gone tragically wrong… and to those of us who are real women,,,, stop holding us back!!!
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
4:37 pm

#79

@slwerner

“Frankly, I DO consider them to be sluts (I hold men in the same regard). I have every right to do so.”

Well there you go. You do care and you were lying when you said you didn’t.

“I also recognize that they have every right to do as they see fit. If they are too weak to ignore what others think, I consider that yet another character flaw.”

You might want to take a basic psychology class. As much as you’d like to pretend that other people’s words don’t affect you, they do. Surprisingly a lot in fact. It’s why things like brainwashing work so effectively on… anyone. Literally. Tough minded, strong people still fall to brainwashing. Because the human mind is still something that responds to stimuli. If you get beaten enough by a bright orange colored lead pipe, you will invariably begin flinching from orange things shaped similarly.

You can be trained, like any other human being. And words train.

“The idea that men must accommodate women’s promiscuity (rather than women come to reject men’s promiscuity) in order to achieve equality is absurd.”

Actually the idea is, men and women must remain neutral on women’s promiscuity and men’s promiscuity unless they specifically are seeking that out (and then they can accommodate it)

You don’t have to have sex with someone who is promiscuous. But you shouldn’t attack and slur them either. Just as people shouldn’t attack and slur guy virgins. Simply remain neutral in your actions and don’t fuck them if you don’t want to.

It’s fucking simple.

“diseases, reduced ability to form pair-bonds, lack of perceived satisfaction with subsequent monogamous relationships”

Diseases are gained through a lack of safe sex. It is possible to have safe sex with multiple partners. Diseases can also be passed from monogamous partnership to monogamous partnership after a breakup. People who sleep with very few people are not immune and it is stupid to suggest otherwise.

Reduced ability to form pair-bonds is also bullshit, mostly because there’s many forms of bonds out there (tri-bonds, quad-bonds, etc) but also because there are many successful open relationships out there where the pair bonding is just fine.

And the lack of perceived satisfaction? Did it ever occur to you that those people may not simply do well in monogamous relationships? Poly mindsets do chafe under such restriction after all.

As for cheating, it is breaking the rules of the relationship. If a relationship allows sex with other people, than the promiscious person is not cheating. Her fuck up was not in having lots of sex, it was in doing so while in a relationship in which the rules made and agreed on by her and her boyfriend together did not allow such.

“And still, such consequences pale in comparison to what she would have seen done to protect the “honor” she no longer had. Prison for five men hardly equates to the “value” of one woman’s reputation.”

You’re getting more and more insipidly old fashioned. “A woman’s honor” is not “virginal, made for marriage creature”. That whole concept is bullshit. People are sexual beings and not everyone can function in monogamy. What she should have done was split with him and go do her own thing.

But this guilting and shaming bullshit makes her ashamed of being sensual and non monogamous. And so it was a lot harder for her to make the right choice.

Comes right back to psychology.
Ted September 18th, 2009
4:43 pm

#80

In my personal opinion, people should wait until they get married for numerous reasons.

1. You avoid diseasse. Not all STDs can be prevented with condoms. Oral herpes can be spread by kissing someone who has it and both herpes and HPV are spread by skin-to-skin contact not mucous secretions.

2. Drama. In my opinion, sex makes relationships more complicated and the fallout from failed relationships more devastating. Though I am sure many women will deny it, but the project feelings from old relationships onto new partners. AKA baggage. As a man, you get to spend your precious time breaking down walls that she put up from previously relationships.

I’m not trying to say that baggage doesn’t occur from non-sexual relationships but, from what I have seen, it isn’t as bad.

3. You don’t have to worry about insecurity from the other individual. If you have never had sex, you don’t have to worry about the other individual constantly trying to outdo your previous partners or wonderig if they “measure up”

4. A telling statistic that I once saw asked women aged 18 and up if they wished they had waited longer to have sex and 86% said yes. In my opinion, most people would like to do the honorable thing and wait but are too weak-willed.

5. It shows character. Assuming that the individual is attractive and in a day and age where marriages seem like the never last due to cheating, would you be more confident in a marriage to an attractive man who chose to wait till marriage or a man that had a new sex parnter every 6 months up until meeting you. He dates you for 2 years and then marries you. To me, the former shows discipline.

I could name more reasons but I feel that what I have listed is sufficient.

Being realistic though, since people seem to have no self-control and have been sucked into the over-sexualized society, I would have to say that, in my opinion, anything over seven guys is NOT marriage material and anything over 13-15 is a slut. So, I persoanally wouldn’t be opposed to dating a woman who had slept with 10 guys, but marriage would probably not be on my “to do” list concerning her.
Ted September 18th, 2009
4:49 pm

#81

Victor,
You might want to read the previous posts so that you actually have a faint idea about what I’m talking about instead of just injecting a random statement like a dumbass.

I gave that example concerning the number of people that were sexually active. In the context that I was using the example, whether or not the relationships were monogamous or not is irrelevant.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
4:52 pm

#82

So, Ted, some simple questions for you: do you like sex? Do you think sex is a good thing?
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
4:53 pm

#83

@arimom3:

Illiteracy is rough, isn’t it?

@Ted:

“Your problem lies in the fact that our society is not based on promiscuity. People usually gete married to one partner and have kids. For this reason, people who do not adhere to the rule of seeking out one partner, with as few “turnover partners” as possible, are labeled sluts.”

Are you aware of the 50% divorce rate in America? As it turns out, the monogamy/forevertogether model doesn’t work so hot.

Which suggests to me that people aren’t doing it because its good but because they’ve been convinced to by social pressure.

On marriage itself: the views on what it is are so varied that to make the claims you do on it is pretty goddawfully ignorant. You started out so good too.

There’s nothing honorable about marrying a slutty woman? What the fuck is honorable about entering into a legal contract with a person you have sex with and are close to? Where does the word honor even come into this? I love how much feminists get accused of using buzzwords but at least feminists have a fucking clue what the buzzwords mean. Do you even know what you mean when you say honor? Do you know what the concept itself means?

But in any case, a long term relationship can easily be maintained with a promiscious person if you don’t have problems with them having sex with someone else. Many swingers,open relationship folks and open line polyamorous groups do this and are just fine (closed circle or polyfidelous groups are essentially just expanded monogamy, with three or more committed people and no outsiders, so they wouldn’t apply to this).

“There is also the aspect of “sloppy seconds.” It is not just men who are not comfortable with taking someone elses “leftovers.” People in life always want the best and in this society women are put up on a pedestal and given more prestige than the deserve.”

The fact that you think of people in such terms that the words sloppy seconds and leftovers were applicable is disgusting in and of itself.

Humans aren’t consumables. We aren’t meat. If you actually gave a shit about your partner (if you have one) you would treat and speak of them like a person, not like a food.

And people don’t need to orientate themselves around you. The monogamy idea tends to twist itself into this concept of spouse ownership. Women do it to men too, and its fucked up. It creates unreasonable jealousy, silly arbitrary rules of behavior and possessiveness.

I don’t see how any of that shit is healthy.

“I have yet to see a feminist decry the “old fashioned” acts of opening doors for women, paying for dates, and pulling out her chair. If women are so independent, why don’t they do it themselves?”

I decry those things.

“If you are going to make youself out to be this “prize” worth pursuing, which society does to women, you better be a prize worth pursuing because there is nothing special about women who sleep around.”

That’s the fucking point. We. Aren’t. Trophies.

Society creates this idea that women are prizes to be pursued. And even that men are prizes to be gained too. And this is fucked up and dehumanizing. I am not your trophy. I am a person. And you are not my trophy. You are a goddamn person too.

“The first woman displays self-discipline, standards, and self-respect. The latter does not.”

Having sex doesn’t indicate a lack of discipline. One needs discipline to handle multiple partners. Same on standards. One can be very choosy about the many that one fucks. And self respect? I’d think a woman who does what she needs and doesn’t let slut shaming assholes push her around has more self respect than a monogamous woman who gets married to spare her the bullshit from people.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
4:54 pm

#84

@Ted:

Stop making claims about women sleeping around more than men with nothing more to back it up beyond personal anecdote. For serious. You’re being silly now.
Natalie September 18th, 2009
4:55 pm

#85

@ Ted

So, you’ll date a woman who has multiple sex partners in her history, but won’t marry her? Her “magic number” would negate any good qualities she had?

You don’t have sex before marriage, and you clearly believe in marriage as a personal goal. You’ll date a woman despite her number, but not marry her. What is your goal in dating, if not to try to find a future marriage partner?
Ted September 18th, 2009
5:20 pm

#86

@recursive

All that is flowing from your mouth are excuses. Endless excuses.

“This is utter bullshit. An attractive guy who is a virgin is often assumed to be gay or fucked up in the head in some way and treated even worse by the virgin shamers.”

Unless you actually know guys that are attractive and virgins, you are talking out of your ass. I do know some and they have never had a problem JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A VIRGIN DOES NOT MEAN YOU DON’T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND. This is the half-assed assumption that you seem to be making.

“Being trained that you own women doesn’t justify rape either. Social conditioning doesn’t justify doing wrong things, it just provides an explanation for why these things are so common, you moron.”

Actually no. It provides an EXCUSE for why women do it and idiots like you try to use that EXCUSE to justify their CRIMINAL behavior.

“Source plz thx. XD”

Ever heard of the CDC.

Herpes 1/4 women, 1/5 men

“Hint: It’s horrible logic to make bullshit assertions that you have no evidence for and act as evidence against.”

Why don’t you take a piece of your own advice. For starters you seem to like breaking down every issue into a male/female issue. Society as a whole does not look highly upon the pornographic industry. If a pornstar were to move into a town, I doubt that the men would let their kids play with the kids of the pornstar, assuming he/she had any.

All you do is sit here and use male stereotypes as “proof” for your statements. If all the guys you know admire pornstars, it’s probably because their losers.

“Important part of statistics class: Never forget confounding variables. If one does not engage in safe sex (protection, medical background checks) then it doesn’t matter if they’ve only slept with 2 people or 40 in their entire life. They’re still spread diseases.”

This statement in no way disproves my prior statement and therefore adds nothing to the discussion other than a weak attempt at self-rationalization.

“Because we aren’t paranoid like you and look for people who use safety and get tested constantly?”

REALLY! When is the last time you were tested for an STD. If people routinely got tested and used protection, STD’s would never be transmitted. Your answer sounds all well and good except for the fact that a lot of people don’t do it.

“You like inexperience and someone being shitty in bed? Wow.”

The typical female response. The first thing a woman does when compared to something she is not, is to try and tear down that said thing out of spit and jealousy. If you need to have sex numerous time with numerous people before you get good at it, then you shouldn’t be suprised that you work at McDonald’s flipping burgers. If sex is something that takes you a long time to “learn,” you’re retarded. From a purely Darwinistic standpoint, sex isn’t meant to be complicated or laborious. You just sound like a hater that’s mad because not everyone out there is as weak-willed was you.
Ted September 18th, 2009
5:35 pm

#87

@baraqiel,

Within the confines of marriage, I believe sex is fine. I’m sure paradox will disagree, but the problem with marriage is not marriage itself, but why and who people get married.

Recursiveparadox calls me ignorant, yet turns around and claims that the 50% divorce rate is proof that people are not meant to be married. WOW. And I oversimplify things?

People get married for all the WRONG reasons. When you factor all the wrong reasons that people get married, it is perfectly logical to think that marriage can work.

In my opinion, sex outside of marriages leads to tricky situations and usually does more harm than good. I see so many spitefull women who harbor hate against men because they got used for their bodies and kicked to the curb. When relationships get sexual and then don’t work out, baggage is inevitable. That’s probably where some of the women on here get their hatred of men.
Ted September 18th, 2009
6:06 pm

#88

“Are you aware of the 50% divorce rate in America? As it turns out, the monogamy/forevertogether model doesn’t work so hot.”

Because people get married for all the WRONG reasons. Some people find their marriages extremely fullfilling. Don’t project your own relationship failures onto others. People can be shallow and in my opinion, that is one of the main sources of the divorce rate.

“Which suggests to me that people aren’t doing it because its good but because they’ve been convinced to by social pressure.”

Studies have shown that children raised in two parent homes do better than single/two(boyfriend/girlfriend) parent homes. Marriages provide more stability than dual occupancy parentships. Boyfriends/girlfriends can pick up and leave but a marriage makes it more difficult and tries to make sure that all options for keeping the family together are exhausted before a breakup.

“On marriage itself: the views on what it is are so varied that to make the claims you do on it is pretty goddawfully ignorant. You started out so good too.”

If you are looking at it from a religious vew maybe, but you never have so actually what I have said IS relevant and YOU are correcting mistakes that I haven’t even made. Feel free to give yourself a sticker.

Yes, I do know what honorable means. It means honest and respectable. That said, when someone walks down an aisle at a wedding and claims that the person across from them is their true love. The one they have been waiting for, even though they screwed 15 people (or more), before getting to them. Something about that smells like bullshit. You are right about one thing though. In today’s society, there is nothing “honorable” about entering a legal contract with most women. You could lose half of everything you’ve workd your entire life for, all for some tainted woman.

“That’s the fucking point. We. Aren’t. Trophies.”

Well, a lot of women act the way, in my experience, so you are in the minority.

“Having sex doesn’t indicate a lack of discipline. One needs discipline to handle multiple partners. Same on standards. One can be very choosy about the many that one fucks. And self respect? I’d think a woman who does what she needs and doesn’t let slut shaming assholes push her around has more self respect than a monogamous woman who gets married to spare her the bullshit from people.
”
That’s funny because every man that I have talked to has told me that women who lack self-discipline are more likely to cheat. That’s what cheating basically boils down to, assuming your not trying to blame your spouse for “forcing” you away from them, an excuse many women use.

You use the word “needs”. “A woman that does what she needs.” How can women say that it is men who sleep around and have sex more than them, and that that’s all they think about, yet turn around and say that they “need” it. Isn’t it women that say that relationships aren’t just about sex, yet they are the ones complaining that they can’t have as much of it as men without being seen as whores. Hypocrisy.

You seem angry that their are people out there that believe in marriage and not your mantra. You never see married people bothering unmarried people, except when their unwed status results in single mothers on welfare. Yet it is always unwed people trying to convince married people that marriage is wrong. I thnk such people are just jealous that some have found what they never will.
Ted September 18th, 2009
6:11 pm

#89

recursive,

“Stop making claims about women sleeping around more than men with nothing more to back it up beyond personal anecdote. For serious. You’re being silly now.

Sure, when women stop saying that all men think about is sex. If one group is to have more sex than the other, it is women that have more sex than men.

As I said earlier, people should take responsiblity for their own actions. If a woman constantly has bad luck with guys, it’s because she seeks out the wrong type of men. You can only by shitty cars from the same company for so long and blame it on the company. If you don’t realize that maybe you need to look elsewhere, it’s your own fault.
Ted September 18th, 2009
6:32 pm

#90

@natalie

So, you’ll date a woman who has multiple sex partners in her history, but won’t marry her? Her “magic number” would negate any good qualities she had?

You don’t have sex before marriage, and you clearly believe in marriage as a personal goal. You’ll date a woman despite her number, but not marry her. What is your goal in dating, if not to try to find a future marriage partner?

I believe that relationships don’t work out because people don’t read between the lines early on and see bad traits that would have caused them to never date the person originally. If you look back at relationships that you’ve had, both dating and friendships, that ended sourly, you probably saw signs that should have “tipped you off” but failed to act on them.

That said, concering your questions, I personally would mostly likely not marry her. If she had so many “good” qualities, depending on what age she is, why is she still single? Some women are “wild childs” and love running the clubs and screwing around. It’s only after they get hurt several times that they decide that this isn’t what they want. Some women don’t get hurt and only decide that they want to get married once their looks start fading and they don’t want to die alone. That is why I think that it is most often women that push the idea of marriage in a relationship. To them, marriage takes their man “off the market” and makes sure the she’ll have someon for life.

I wouldn’t want to marry someone who is only getting married because their looks are fading or because they can’t get what they orinally wanted (man slut). In my opinion, previous sexual partners is an indicator of not only that but what type of person they are. If they have had a lot of partners, are they one night stands? If so, who would be comfortable marrying someone who has had multiple one night stands?

An older man can get another wife if he divorces, a woman, not so much. Plus, because men die younger than women, as women get older, men become more scarce.

Marriage is not so much a personal goal, but a means to an end. Studies show that families with a married father and mother raise better children, are more devoid of domestic violence/child abuse and are more likely to stay together.

When I said I would date, but not marry I was merely giving my opinion. I don’t think that it would be improper, but at the same time, I couldn’t see myself pursuing anything past that point. My views may change, but at this time, that is how I feel.

If I was waiting until marriage to have sex, I would resent marrying someone who had screwed around a lot before getting to me. I would feel cheated, to be honest. Marriage, at least from a Christian sense, is about two people giving themselves unto one another and if you have already given yourself to fifteen other people, that concept seem contradictory to me.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
8:01 pm

#91

@Ted:

“All that is flowing from your mouth are excuses. Endless excuses.”

Funny, I keep hearing logical rebuttals coming out of my mouth. Maybe you don’t know what the definition of excuse is.

“Unless you actually know guys that are attractive and virgins, you are talking out of your ass.”

I do. Hell, before I transitioned, I was one of ‘em.

“I do know some and they have never had a problem JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A VIRGIN DOES NOT MEAN YOU DON’T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND. This is the half-assed assumption that you seem to be making.”

When did I ever say virgins don’t have girlfriends? Having a girlfriend might take a tiny bit of pressure off (as I can attest to myself) but largely, it doesn’t help much. Because now people will harass you AND your girlfriend about your virginity. It gets very obnoxious.

“Actually no. It provides an EXCUSE for why women do it and idiots like you try to use that EXCUSE to justify their CRIMINAL behavior.”

Bulllllshit.

Her behavior was not justified. Idiots like you fail at reading and assume that we think it was. Her behavior was abhorrant. False accusations of any crime are absolutely fucked up. False accusations of a major crime are worse. Me personally? I think she ought to have charges pressed against her for it.

But that doesn’t change what creates these motivations. And the best way to reduce these numbers (because jail time sure as fuck ain’t doing it) is to change these motivations.

Which means addressing the rape culture.

Do you get it now, you moron? I’m talking about addressing underlying elements of our society so that these problems in our society become /less prevalent/. Nowhere in there do I excuse anyone’s behavior. I am merely trying to make the world slightly more livable for everyone. What the fuck are you doing? Just the same old shit that doesn’t work to change anything.

“Ever heard of the CDC.

Herpes 1/4 women, 1/5 men”

Ever heard of a fucking hyperlink? I can write numbers down too but that doesn’t make them not bullshit. Link me a source (like the vaunted CDC) and then we’ll go over it.

“Why don’t you take a piece of your own advice. For starters you seem to like breaking down every issue into a male/female issue. Society as a whole does not look highly upon the pornographic industry. If a pornstar were to move into a town, I doubt that the men would let their kids play with the kids of the pornstar, assuming he/she had any.”

I break down every issue into an issue of social elements only because every issue we’ve gone over here so far is influenced by those elements. I’m sure if we went over murder rates I would go to greed and anger and individual motivations as the reasons. But we ain’t.

Society as a whole doesn’t look highly on porn in general but the men are still looked upon better than the women. As for a pornstar moving into town, how can you make any assessment based on such unbacked speculation?

Have you asked anyone what they would do if a porn star moved in?

“All you do is sit here and use male stereotypes as “proof” for your statements. If all the guys you know admire pornstars, it’s probably because their losers.”

Male stereotypes? Where? How is it a stereotype for guys to admire porn stars? Most people don’t even realize this. It has to be a widespread belief before it’s a stereotype, bro.

“This statement in no way disproves my prior statement and therefore adds nothing to the discussion other than a weak attempt at self-rationalization.”

It negates your attempt to prove that promiscuity is a problem based on diseases because safe sex is the real determiner of disease passage, not fucking a lot of people.

Come on. Please tell me you aren’t actually this stupid.

“REALLY! When is the last time you were tested for an STD. If people routinely got tested and used protection, STD’s would never be transmitted. Your answer sounds all well and good except for the fact that a lot of people don’t do it.”

I went from being a virgin to having sex with one person who provided medical history (that person was clean) and used protection. I then went on to my current partner after that ended who I also checked the medical history of (and who was also clean). We also use protection.

One can generally safely assume that a virgin will not have STD’s. However, I still do use protection and I do plan on getting a routine check as soon as my insurance clears.

It’s all about responsibility. If people can’t be responsible about sex, they shouldn’t be having it at all (not even with just one person in a marriage). So that doesn’t help you much.

“The typical female response. The first thing a woman does when compared to something she is not, is to try and tear down that said thing out of spit and jealousy. If you need to have sex numerous time with numerous people before you get good at it, then you shouldn’t be suprised that you work at McDonald’s flipping burgers. If sex is something that takes you a long time to “learn,” you’re retarded. From a purely Darwinistic standpoint, sex isn’t meant to be complicated or laborious. You just sound like a hater that’s mad because not everyone out there is as weak-willed was you.”

Actually it’s usually the guys who suck in bed. Just letting you know. You probably do too and just think you’re good if you think it’s that simple. XD

A surprisingly low number of women are actually brought to orgasm by vaginal sex. Which means that you have to know how to find the clitoris in order to even be ready to rock. You also have to understand the base complexities of foreplay, sensual points and keeping an arousal going.

If you think pleasurable sex is a purely instinctual thing, that I sincerely doubt you have ever created a real orgasm in any woman, ever. Breeding is very simple obviously, but I’m not talking breeding so darwin doesn’t come into this.

As for me being weak willed, you really fail pretty hard if you have to resort to making (poorly aimed) personal attacks. For one, since I’ve already stated that the moral positions of monogamy, polyamory and promiscuity are the same provided people set ground rules, follow them and respect each others wishes, there is absolutely no weakness implied in doing any of those three relationship models. In fact, I would refer to going to the best one for one strength in the face of the world demanding only strict “innocent” monogamy.

And it’s a poorly aimed attack since I’ve only had sex with two people and have far too many trust issues to have sex with someone I don’t know extraordinarily well. Good try though, little man, it was amusing. XD
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
8:05 pm

#92

@Ted:

“Some people find their marriages extremely fullfilling.”

Of course. I never meant to imply that marriage is a bad thing for everyone and I apologize if I was unclear.

What I was trying to get across is that marriage really can’t be the best option for every person in the universe if so many of them are failing.

More likely, there’s a bunch of people whom marriage is awesome for and a bunch of people whom need a different relationship type.

Little more clear now?

“Studies have shown that children raised in two parent homes do better than single/two(boyfriend/girlfriend) parent homes.”

What studies? Also, what do those studies have to say about three and four parent homes or extended family homes? I’d safely bet you that the more people involved in child raising, the better the child it does.

‘It takes two parents to make a child but a village it raise one’ XD

“Marriages provide more stability than dual occupancy parentships. Boyfriends/girlfriends can pick up and leave but a marriage makes it more difficult and tries to make sure that all options for keeping the family together are exhausted before a breakup.”

Considering the sheer level of contentious divorces, that rip through a family like a serrated knife (because of how hard it is to end marriages and all the legal nastiness that gets involved) I really have to wonder why you think that statement made any sense at all.

A break up in a marriage is far more nasty than a break up of a dual occupancy partnership because legal and financial stuff is thrown in. Things get very bitter and it always affects the kids.

“If you are looking at it from a religious vew maybe, but you never have so actually what I have said IS relevant and YOU are correcting mistakes that I haven’t even made.”

You said the idea of marriage was to find a soul mate and whatnot. For some, it is merely the logical step to tie finances together in their partnership.

“Yes, I do know what honorable means. It means honest and respectable. That said, when someone walks down an aisle at a wedding and claims that the person across from them is their true love…”

…here’s where the failure comes in. Not all marriages are built on this idea of a soul mate or that there’s only one kind of true love and it’s based around monogamy.

Their honor is retained because they are continuing to operate within their ethics.

“Something about that smells like bullshit.”

You sound bitter. Are you projecting?

“Well, a lot of women act the way, in my experience, so you are in the minority.”

Do you like the idea of women acting that way?

“That’s funny because every man that I have talked to has told me that women who lack self-discipline are more likely to cheat.”

There’s a huge difference between having sex with multiple people and cheating. The only time the former is the same as the latter is when one is in a relationship in which the rules state that sex with multiple folk is not allowed.

Only then. Not any other time.

“How can women say that it is men who sleep around and have sex more than them, and that that’s all they think about, yet turn around and say that they “need” it. Isn’t it women that say that relationships aren’t just about sex, yet they are the ones complaining that they can’t have as much of it as men without being seen as whores. Hypocrisy.”

Because a lot of women spot the double standard only from our side. They don’t spot it from yours. Which is just, once again, a problem of the rape culture. A guy’s need to not have sex or have a relationship built on soulmattery (like you need) should not be mistreated. A woman who wants to just go out and fuck like minded people should not be mistreated. We should all be allowed to go out, find folk who need what we need, and do our own things.

Enforcing shit on people is what creates that hypocrisy in both men and women. Enforcing this shit on people is what creates the idea that women are prizes to be won by breaking down resistance and that men are predators that seek every prize out there and trains both accordingly. Enforcing this shit on people is the rape culture and it is what makes it so much more likely that a man will rape a woman and so much more likely that a woman will falsely accuse a man of rape then ever would be expected in a society without such viral cultural elements.

“You seem angry that their are people out there that believe in marriage and not your mantra.”

Well, I was unclear, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. I’m not upset at people who like marriage and do better in it. I welcome them to do what they need. They just need to stop mistreating others who have different needs.

“You never see married people bothering unmarried people, except when their unwed status results in single mothers on welfare.”

This is bullshit. Families do it too. Everyone is up in your business when you’re in a relationship for a while but unmarried. Everyone calls girls sluts when they’re just out enjoying themselves like many guys do.

Seriously, you must be blind. You’ve even done it in this thread by passively aggressively talking about how much I’m missing. Trust me, I’m not missing anything. Married life does not fill my needs.

It’s like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, “omg, you gotta try this peanut butter. You don’t know what you’re missing!” And the allergic person says, “I’m missing death…?”

Yeah, keep dreaming that everyone is like you.
recursiveparadox September 18th, 2009
8:07 pm

#93

@Ted

“Sure, when women stop saying that all men think about is sex.”

Two wrongs don’t make a right, Ted. I’ve never once said that all men think about is sex and stereotypes and nastiness like that is why virgin guys are so badly treated (something I very much oppose).

But hey, pretend I’m every girl who’s ever hurt you in your life and keep on spouting vitriol at me for opinions I haven’t once expressed or agreed with in any way.

*eyeroll*

“If one group is to have more sex than the other, it is women that have more sex than men.”

Bullshit.
baraqiel September 18th, 2009
9:11 pm

#94

@Ted – “Within the confines of marriage, I believe sex is fine.”

Well, that’s why this conversation that recursive is trying to have with you will never go anywhere (although props for trying, recursive). You think sex is fine, just okay, but only within marriage. And you’re entitled to your belief about that, as long as you only apply it to yourself. Many other people disagree with you. Many other people think that sexual activity, on its own merits, is fun, pleasurable, and a worthwhile pursuit — that it’s one of the best ways humans have to pass the time. This is perhaps why your view of relationships is so different from the vast majority of America’s. Regardless, you should feel free to conduct your romantic and sexual life in the way that you see fit (assuming everything you do with anyone else is consensual, of course), but please, grant the rest of us that courtesy as well by not implying or flat out saying that the way we choose to live our lives is objectively worse than the way you choose to live yours because there’s really no basis for that and it’s quite rude.
Grst September 18th, 2009
10:42 pm

#95

Actually we do know why she made the accusation: she’s a slut and didn’t want to live with the consequences. You want to talk about culture, how about the culture of no consequences. There’s no consequence for sex; take a pill. There’s no consequence for getting pregnant; take another pill, or if that doesn’t work get an abortion. And now many think there’s no consequences for being cheating sluts. Just lie and say you were raped. Welcome to the world of no consequences for your actions. Is it everything the feminists wanted? How many innocent men must suffer so that you can party, booze and fornicate first and think second?
Alfonzeli September 18th, 2009
11:26 pm

#96

Any culture that does not require women to take responsibility for the bad choices they make, that routinely goes against constitutional, lawful principles in favour of women over men, that retains alleged victims’ anonymity when making claims while presuming men to be guilty as charged… this sound more to me like a slut culture, not a rape culture.
Ted September 19th, 2009
2:19 pm

#97

@baraqiel

I think that, in a perfect world, sex outside of marriage is fine. But, from what I have seen, in the real world it complicates things. You misunderstand me if you think that my basis for saying that sex should be within marriage is based SOLEY on religion.

And actually, my view of relationships is NOT different from “the vast majority of America.” In fact, the vast majority of people in this country identify with a religion that prohibits sex outside of marriage, so all you are basically saying is that we live in a nation of hypocrites. People who walk around saying one thing and doing another.

If people want to have sex outside of marriage, that is fine for them, but my only gripe is that they need to shut up when people judge them accordingly.

I’ve seen this too many times to be told otherwise. Many young women who have sex outside of marriage do so because they are young and want to have their hay-day. Fine. But people who sleep around and then try to get married later on in their life are just trying to have their cake and eat it too.

They know that their looks have an expiration date and so once they get old and can’t run the clubs anymore, they get married while they still have some looks left so they won’t die alone.

Bad relationships leave people with baggage and preconceptions about the opposite sex and relationships that reach a sexual level exacerbate the problem in my opinion.
Luek September 19th, 2009
2:25 pm

#98

A false rape accusation is equivalent to rape itself and should be prosecuted as a major felony instead of a misdemeanor. A FALSE RAPE ACCUSATION IS RAPE!
baraqiel September 19th, 2009
3:02 pm

#99

@Ted – “In fact, the vast majority of people in this country identify with a religion that prohibits sex outside of marriage”

Well, that depends on how you define “identify”. A quick wiki search shows that around 80% of Americans call themselves Christian — but also that only 40% of Americans attend any sort of religious services regularly and that about half of American adults no longer strongly identify with the religion of their upbringing. And you’re also assuming that all Christian sects prohibit premarital sex, which isn’t the case. So…pretty much, that’s just incorrect.

“If people want to have sex outside of marriage, that is fine for them, but my only gripe is that they need to shut up when people judge them accordingly.”

And again, why don’t you take responsibility for judging the sex lives of strangers when it has nothing to do with you? People have a perfect right to complain when they are insulted, because insulting someone is rude, mean, hurtful — a bad thing to do to someone. For those who “judge them accordingly”, it is their choice to do so, and I think that those who judge need to accept the consequences of being, frankly, kind of jerks for judging strangers so harshly and without cause. You choose to judge people and then insult them in public forums: that is your right. But you should also accept the consequences of your actions, which is for others to think that you’re not a nice or good person.
Luek September 19th, 2009
3:59 pm

#100

More bad law, abuse of power, deaths, assaults, mass hysteria, and various other social pathologies have been caused by society’s obsession over the centuries with that little 2 inch square invaginated area of the female crotch/pelvic region than all of the illicit drug use, alcoholism, non rational reasoning and superstitions combined!
Ted September 19th, 2009
4:24 pm

#101

@recursive

First of all, there is a saying that there is a kernel of truth behind every sterotype. That being said, I doubt that strangers would question if you were gay because you were a virgin. If anything, they were your “friends.” And I doubt real friends would give you a hard time over something that trivial. What you are talking about has nothing to do with being a virgin and everything to do with the character of the people that you surround yourself with.

YOU miss the point regarding rape culture because it DOES try and excuse criminal behavior. Even if people change their views regarding having casual sex with unknown people, society will NEVER accept a woman having sex with 5 people at one time. Do you really think that they were ALL wearing condoms? That type of behavior is synonymous with disease transmission, regardless of what you may think. And any type of behavior that is conducive to disease transmission will ALWAYS be looked down upon by society. Even medical associations warn against engaging in that type of behavior because condoms are rarely used.

“Society as a whole doesn’t look highly on porn in general but the men are still looked upon better than the women. As for a pornstar moving into town, how can you make any assessment based on such unbacked speculation?”

First of all you don’t know if society looks at men “better.” I would argue that men in porn aren’t as well known and therefore can move around without being harassed as much. Secondly, women are the enablers in the porn industry. If you remove women, all you have is gay porn. If you remove men, you have lesbian porn, which many men will still watch. As a result women are probably seen as catalyst in the porn inustry and the main “problem.” As for porn stars moving into a town, I heard in a documentary that a male porn director with kids moved out of his neighborhood after the people found out what he did. The neighbors would not allow their kids to play with the kids of the man and he and his family became outcasts.

“It negates your attempt to prove that promiscuity is a problem based on diseases because safe sex is the real determiner of disease passage, not fucking a lot of people.”

It’s called complacency. When people are used to engaging in an activity over and over for an extended period of time, they start negating certain safeguards that they originally maintained.

“A surprisingly low number of women are actually brought to orgasm by vaginal sex. Which means that you have to know how to find the clitoris in order to even be ready to rock. You also have to understand the base complexities of foreplay, sensual points and keeping an arousal going.

If you think pleasurable sex is a purely instinctual thing, that I sincerely doubt you have ever created a real orgasm in any woman, ever. Breeding is very simple obviously, but I’m not talking breeding so darwin doesn’t come into this.”

I never said that sex was soley based on intercourse alone. That said, there is nothing in your prior statement that I didn’t already know.

You saying that someone has to have a lot of sex in order to be good makes about as much sense as saying that you have to have a lot of sex with a person before you get good with that individual person. Every person is different and likes different things. By your logic, every “first time” with a different person would be bad because you haven’t “learned” what to do in order to satisfy them and this is simply not true. If you know what to do, you know what to do and there is no “learning curve” to go through.

“And it’s a poorly aimed attack since I’ve only had sex with two people and have far too many trust issues to have sex with someone I don’t know extraordinarily well. Good try though, little man, it was amusing. XD”

In this very statement, you may have very well reinforced what I have been saying all along. If you have trust issues, I would assume to some extent that they have to do with bad experiences that you have had prior. That said someone who decides to engage in sex prior to marriage has no right to get angry at someone who would write them off as a prospective partner based soley on the fact that they have had multiple partners. They are more likely to have serious trust issues that would make a LONG TERM relationship harder to succeed. It’s more of a common sense thing than it s a religious one. The more sexual partners someone has had, they more likely they are to have bad sexual experiences that leave them emotionally/mentally shaken. Anyone trying to have a long-term serious relationship with that person would have to deal with those issues and they will most certainly cause problems that may destroy the relationship. It’s all about calculated risk and in my eyes women with more partners are more of a liability.

“What I was trying to get across is that marriage really can’t be the best option for every person in the universe if so many of them are failing.”

As I said earlier, if we were to take out marriages based on superficiality and greed, the divorce rate would be much lower. People marry for looks, money, security, greed, expectations and so many other things besides love.

You are wrong. Marriage ensures that parents try and work things out for the sake of the children. GREED is what makes divorces so nasty. Mostly WOMEN’S greed. They always think that they are entitled to more than they are. For what? Pop out a few kids and they think the world owes them everything.

“What studies? Also, what do those studies have to say about three and four parent homes or extended family homes? I’d safely bet you that the more people involved in child raising, the better the child it does.”

Black families? Single mother with grandmother and aunt helping to raise the child. Absentee father. Child suffers. This is a prototypical example of what you were referring to and it is quite prevalent with the African-american community and it doesn’t work.

“You said the idea of marriage was to find a soul mate and whatnot. For some, it is merely the logical step to tie finances together in their partnership.”

By “some” you must mean women. Marriage, in this day and age, is nothing but a security arrangement for the woman in case the relationship doesn’t work out. It ensure that she will walk out the door with half the man’s money for doing absolutely nothing. It’s so funny to see women on entertainment news shows bitch and complain about how men get a lot of money for divorcing famous women. Where were these women when men were getting taken to the bank all these years.

And by the way, I never said that marriage was about a “soul mate.” I don’t believe in them. There are multiple people out there that are great prospective partners and marriage is about finding one of them. I said that marriage in our society is built around the idea of a soul mate and that many people embrace that philosophy, yet do not follow through on that belief with the appropriate action.

No, I don’t like the idea of women acting like trophies. Especially since many of them are a poor example of one. Many attractive women walk around with bitchy attitudes and think that they are entitled to the better things in life based soley on the fact that they are attractive. When they lose their looks, they will be reduced to the empty shells that they are. Trophy women end up alone and divorced in the end because once they lose their looks, no one wants them.

I don’t see how you can say that making women out to be prizes promotes rape among men. I could very well argue that mens drive to purse women as “prizes” and go after the “best” prize is more of a evolutionary driven than a conditioned

But lets be honest about this. Most of this crap boils down to low self-esteem. If women had high self esteem, they wouldn’t care what people thought of them or their relationships, but because they have low self-esteem they shape thier lives around what people will think of them. All people do this to a degree, but women take it to more of an extreme.

“But hey, pretend I’m every girl who’s ever hurt you in your life and keep on spouting vitriol at me for opinions I haven’t once expressed or agreed with in any way.”

I never said that you said all men think about is sex, but you have been making very one-sided statements that conveniently ignore the other side of the story. I have never been “hurt” by any woman, but what I have realized is that promiscuous women are shady and conniving. The few times I have been approached by them and knew their reputation ahead of time, I ignored them.

In the same way that I can repect someon who wants to have casual sex, they too must respect my decision not to associate with people of that nature and that I have that right. I shouldn’t have to approve of that type of behavior, let alone be comfortable dating someone who engages in it, and it is my right to do so. Some people don’t believe in marriage, but I don’t cop an attitude because of it.

All of this can be summed up from an earlier statment. If women had good self-esteem, they wouldn’t care what people thought of them. There are lots of other things that people do that others do not approve of. That doesn’t mean that those people should be forced to agree with those whom they disapprove of.

I see women who sleep around a lot, a risk for several reasons. If you marry a woman who slept around a lot before you met her and you live in a small town, you have to worry about gossip in the town and at your workplace. You have to worry about negative preconceptions she may have as a result of prior relationships. The more casual sex a woman has, the more likely she is to have a bad experience that leaves her emotionally scarred. To put it bluntly, some chicks become fucked up in the head from bad relationships. By dating a chick that has been with a lot guys, including casual sex and long term relationships, you are taking an unnecessary risk. The deck is stacked against you before the relationship has even begun. There are too many other women out there to wast time with women that prefer to sleep around. Men know that and that is why they will sleep with a woman that has had a lot of partners but may be hesitant to have a relationship with one.
Anon2 September 19th, 2009
4:29 pm

#102

Bob. Great post. But one thing. There is absolutely no point in arguing with the mentally ill feminists who have in fact been brainwashed by propaganda and lies that render them useless. I mean they know nothing about men and males and care to know nothing about them. Every so called fact they spout is nothing but spun statistics that are as honest as Leehman Brother’s balance sheet (go ahead, jump on that like a fat kid on a smarty.)

They think men are pure evil right down to the core. Even if you were just born male, they hate you for being born. You wouldn’t want to leave your 5 year old son with these women. For that matter, keep your girls safe too. They have an agenda that has nothing to do with reality. Its only convenient for them to gloss over the fact the rape allegation was false to focus more on how evil men are and how even the innocent ones should be addressed as criminals.

We both know they are sick. They can’t even address this comment without focusing on my gender and going into personal attack mode. They are incapable of logic and reason, as zealots usually are.

Further, they don’t realize the damage they are doing to both men and women. Whats more they couldn’t care less, as long as they never have to question their underlying belief that all men are evil and all women are good. Its the underlying belief they all hold, though they try to cleverly repackage it in jargon and bullshit. You can talk till you are blue in the face, they will never listen to you or me. They will never realize how lost they are.

Anyway I know all you zealots can’t resist attacking me. Go ahead. Its on me. Don’t forget – I’m evil and have an inferiority complex and yet somehow I’m able to single-handedly hold you down as is the average 5 year old male. How did it go? Every male will eventually be his mothers abuser? I know I read that in your writings somewhere. Don’t forget to throw in some lines from Mein Kampf for good measure. Oh sorry, the books title was a little different. Eh whatever. Same diff.
Ted September 19th, 2009
4:44 pm

#103

@baraqiel

I never said that all Christian sects prohibit premarital sex, but the most popular sects do. Christian and fornication are contradictory terms. The sects that believe that they are not are in the minority.

i don’t insult people who have sex before marriage. I really could care less, but I don’t have to approve of it and people who do it have no right to be angry with people who reject/turn them down because of their activities. I don’t insult women who sleep around, but the one that I have had approach me, I ignored. I really don’t want anything to do with them.

People refuse to date other people based on race, though they may not come out and explicitly state that, yet somehow it is “bad” to judge people for behavior which they can control?

Actually the sex live of strangers does have something to do with me. When people sleep around and end up getting their feelings hurt and I end up running into that person down the line, I have to deal with the emotional baggage and fallout. That’s what people like yourself don’t seem to understand. Who people sleep with is their business, but if I am in a relationship with a woman who I feel is projecting her negative emotions from past relationships/flings onto me then I have every right to preemptively judge and reject women on the grounds that they have slept with too many people and will probably carry too much baggage as a result.

I’m simply protecting my own interest and doing what’s best for myself.
baraqiel September 19th, 2009
5:38 pm

#104

@Ted – “i don’t insult people who have sex before marriage….I don’t insult women who sleep around”

Well, that’s interesting, because these are all direct quotes from you:
“Sleeping with a different guy ever week is slutty.”
“There is nothing honorable about marrying a slutty woman.”
“I doubt that someone who is used to sleepinig with a new partner every month, or maybe even year, could manage a long term relationship.”
“If you are going to make youself out to be this “prize” worth pursuing, which society does to women, you better be a prize worth pursuing because there is nothing special about women who sleep around.”
“[A chaste woman] displays self-discipline, standards, and self-respect. [A promiscuous woman] does not.”
“No one likes slutty women.”
“most people would like to do the honorable thing and wait but are too weak-willed.”
” You could lose half of everything you’ve workd your entire life for, all for some tainted woman”
“some chicks become fucked up in the head from bad relationships”

Perhaps none of that seems insulting to you, but it seems quite insulting to me and I suspect many others.

You seem quite intent on defending your right not to have sex with women who have had sex with other men. And yet, I don’t think there are any women here who are propositioning you for sex and then being upset when they’re turned down, so why exactly are you putting so much effort into defending a choice that no one is denying you have the right to make?

What I question is not your decision about your sex life — your sex life has nothing to do with me — but rather your apparent need to come here and loudly proclaim your dislike for women who have had multiple male sex partners. As I said before, your behavior is quite rude. Say you do start a relationship with a woman who has some emotional baggage and would like to reject her for it. What then? No one is questioning your right to break up with such women, or not to date them in the first place. Furthermore, until such a time as a woman who has had multiple sex partners is interested in beginning a relationship with you, her sex life has nothing to do with you.

Women who have had multiple sex partners and yet are not currently trying and will never try to have sex with you comprise the vast majority of American women, Ted. Your concerns about encountering “a woman who I feel is projecting her negative emotions from past relationships/flings onto me” address a minuscule percent of the population, so it seems quite overblown to be addressing them here, to strangers, for no apparent reason.

As such, I think, again, that it is you who must take responsibility for your actions. You are choosing to come here and insult large swathes of the population that you have never met. Your behavior indicates very strongly that you are simply not a good or nice person.
Mike Hunter September 19th, 2009
8:38 pm

#105

Rape Culture? There is no such thing, it’s just another theory made up by feminists with no facts to support it. We live in a ‘culture of permissive misandry’.

The author of this essay immediately turns from the matter of the fact that the false accuser nearly destroyed the lives of the guys she had had sex with not too long ago to whether or not there is a double-standard in society about how men and women are judged vis-a-vis their sexual permissiveness.

It’s fair to talk about that. But that isn’t the point of what has happened here. The point is that these five guys were, upon a mere assertion from someone else, jailed and effectively presumed guilty. It took the provision of proof in the form of a cell phone video to get her to start telling the truth and admit that she had made the story up.

On top of that, the false accuser’s name doesn’t get disclosed while the names of all five of the guys get disclosed. While most people will accept that the accuser was (finally) telling the truth that she made the story up, there will always be some people who will believe the men did something wrong, despite the cell phone video the police and DA says they had. Does the essayist actually think their lives will not be adversely affected by what has happened here? Will it not affect their relationship with their families back home?

The false accuser nearly ruined five innocent men’s lives before they even got off the ground. As it stands, she has placed serious obstacles in their way, even so. Meanwhile she faces no charges and at the moment, the police are talking to the press about her as if she “needs help.” Yeah, she needs help. She also needs to be charged with a criminal offense (or two, or three) for what she has done and face the music. But since we live in a ‘Culture of permissive misandry’, I doubt that will happen.
Alfonzeli September 19th, 2009
9:21 pm

#106

I was just browsing around here on this lazy weekend and stumbled across a couple of our fine women-folk defending slut-hood. Recursiveparadox makes the point that “A man who has a ton of sex with a bunch of people is only called a man whore by a very small component of the population”. Nonesense… most women are not attracted to “studs” that have “tons of sex” with many women (the operative word being “attracted” – other factors are at play). The sex-obsessed west notwithstanding, what we usually find (in cultures outside of the west) is that men to whom women are drawn are more likely to be successful, charismatic and, well, sexy (power is an aphrodisiac, didn’t ya know?). Very different to the menagerie of losers at the bottom tail of the bell-curve that so-called “liberated” women are more likely to finish up wasting their time with. Let’s think carefully for a moment about this bell-curve for men versus women. With a flatter distribution bell-curve for men (men have wider variations in their abilities than do women), isn’t it inevitable that women that slut around are not going to be choosing from among the cream of the crop? Isn’t it inevitable that successful, charismatic men are more likely to be choosing from among the cream of the crop? It has been my observation that women that slut around are no better than the losers that they finish up with. Nature has a way of factoring in men’s and women’s attitudes to slut-hood/loserhood, and it’s logical. There are reasons why men don’t want to marry sluts and women don’t want to marry losers. Sluts and losers belong together, they are two sides of the one coin, and both inhabit the bottom tail-ends of their respective bell-curves.
Ted September 19th, 2009
9:55 pm

#107

Actually you are wrong because there are many people out there like myself. I am simply explaining the phenomenon that you that you are talking about. There are many men out there like myself and I am simply telling you why your problem with people looking down own the promiscuous is stupid.

People are entitled to their opinion and if they don’t like people who sleep around a lot, that is their right. You have no business trying to tell people what they can and cannot believe or think.

There is also a lot of truth to a lot of the “insults” you described. If it’s true then it’s not really an insult.

“…so why exactly are you putting so much effort into defending a choice that no one is denying you have the right to make?”

I am not defending anything. I am simply saying that this is a free country and people should not have to approve of your behavior to soothe your feelings.

“Ted. Your concerns about encountering “a woman who I feel is projecting her negative emotions from past relationships/flings onto me” address a minuscule percent of the population, so it seems quite overblown to be addressing them here, to strangers, for no apparent reason.”

Considering that this story is about a woman who lied about her sluttyness and, to a point, is representative of a large number of the female population, it is not “overblown.”

You entire argument makes no sense. You are sitting here saying that people who sleep around a lot should not be insulted, yet I have never seen anyone called “slutty” to their face in public. It rarely happens. If anything, it is done behind their back when they are not around and it is mostly by people that only know them as an acquaintance and not a friend.

Your entire argument is not about changing what people say, but what people THINK, so quit all this insults nonsense. Even if a person was called a slut to their face, the individual controls their own destiny. If you know you will be called a slut for sleeping around and do it anyway, it’s your own fault. Own up to your decisions. If you know the consequences, then it must be assumed that you don’t care about them.

I have never met someone who prior, to learning their promiscuous sex habits, I thought highly of. Somewhat telling in my opinion.

“When you call a woman a slut, you’re calling her dirty, worthless, a person of low character and low self-esteem — in other words, you’re insulting her entire person. ”

All the girls that I have met that I would describe as slutty, fit a lot of these traits. They were shady and sketchy individuals. They fucked around to get attention and came across as having low self-esteem. They were compulsive liars. Listen here. There is a reason why people associate all these negative traits with women that sleep around a lot. Because more often than not, they are synonymous with these types of individuals.

You seem to be obsessed about creating some “fantasy land” where no one ever bad mouths anyone and everyone sings songs and holds hands. It’s not going to happen.

I’m defending my rights because you seem intent on telling people that they should have to agree with your behavior. You keep saying that that isn’t your goal, but if you tell people that they shouldn’t be able to talk negatively,only positively or neutral, about a particular topic, you are trying to censor their speech.

You are talking about such a narrow sliver of a much broader topic. You are saying that people shouldn’t call other people “bad” names because they sleep around, yet people call each other “bad” names for many reasons. Don’t sit here talking you bullshit about “slut shaming” when women will sleep with guys and turn around and tell their female friends that a guy sucks in bed or has a small penis (which could be a lie) or some other negative comment that would cause the men embarrassment. When you start telling people what they should be able to think and say, then, to be fair, you should censor everything else as well. And that is why your entire argument fails. This is a free country and everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and thought.

“
baraqiel September 19th, 2009
10:13 pm

#108

Now, Ted, I think you need to recognize the difference between what people have a right to do and what people should do. I’ve never once said that you don’t have the right to think or say what you’re saying. You absolutely have that right. I question whether or not you *should* say what you’re saying. Just because you have the right to do something doesn’t make doing that thing a good choice, after all. I just think that people shouldn’t go around insulting strangers. I don’t think it’s a very nice thing to do. Do you disagree?

“Considering that this story is about a woman who lied about her sluttyness”
But you’re no longer talking about her, Ted. Most of your comments have been about how you think that women in general are sluttier than men in general, or about how you think that premarital sex leads to unhappy relationships, etc. None of that relates strongly to this case, but all of it relates strongly to your clear dislike of women who have had sex with several other men.

“If you know you will be called a slut for sleeping around and do it anyway, it’s your own fault.”

You know what, at this point I’m just going to copy and paste what I said before: You make the choice to call a woman a slut. You calling a woman a slut is 100% your responsibility and your fault. It is not the natural consequence of an action. It is your choice. As such, if someone that you call a slut wants to blame you for you calling her a slut, that’s perfectly reasonable, because it is your fault that you called her a slut.

“If it’s true then it’s not really an insult.”
Now that’s obviously not the case. I would probably be telling the truth if I said, for example, that you’re a bitter and lonely person, but it would still be mean and rude of me to say, because it’s insulting.

I’m really not trying to dictate what people think or what they should be allowed to do. I’m just trying to make the world a little bit of a nicer place by trying to convince you not to insult strangers. After all, the world is nicer for everyone if everyone is nicer, right?
Ted September 19th, 2009
10:31 pm

#109

I never said pre-marital sex leads to unhappy relationships. I said that if a relationship fails, it lessens the chances of future relationships succeeding. Marriages are better for children. This has been shown in studies.

I think that premarital sex can work in a long term relationship if both individuals have not slept with many people. But, when people have hard large numbers of sexual relationships, the chance of subsequent relationships is diminished in my opinion.

Call me lonlely and bitter. If that’s going to hurt my feelings, then I proably won’t last long in this world. If you get your feelings hurt by words from someone who has no bearing on your life, you’re in for a rough lifetime.

I have never called any woman a slut to her face. When I write “slut” on the internet, I am merely verbalizing my thoughts. I wouldn’t call a woman a slut to her face unless she pissed me off. If I disapproved of a woman’s sexual habits, whom I was courting, I would merely say I’m not interested because I don’t approve of that type of behavior.

From my own personal experience, loose women, after the fuck up their reputation, try and go after “nice” guys who don’t know of their questionable background and are ignorant. I have seen it so often to the point where I know that it is a calculated move on the part of the woman. They want to try and start anew, so they pick out someone who doesn’t know a lot of people and doesn’t have large social circles. I pity those guys when I see them because the don’t know what they’re getting into. No man want’s to think that he is getting someone elses hand-me-downs.

Say what you will, but the women that I have seen that slept around a lot were not “good” people. They were lying and deceitful people. Luckily, I had friends that tipped me off before I wasted my time with them.
baraqiel September 19th, 2009
11:00 pm

#110

No, but that’s just the point — I wouldn’t call you lonely and bitter. That was just a hypothetical. I try to be nicer than that. I think it’s mean to say bad stuff about people that you’ve never met. I think being mean is bad. Presumably you disagree with me about one of those two statements. Do you think it’s okay for you to be mean, Ted? Or do you think that you’re not being mean by insulting people that you’ve never met?
J September 20th, 2009
5:47 am

#111

To the first poster and all of the “rape culture” fans. Way to go. Men are the only people in prison from the results of this rape culture so I think it’s understandable that guys whether they be an MRA or not to be pissed off at the high number of false accusations. The real things that don’t help is whenever someone tries to mention the problem with this growing epidemic (I don’t give a damn that it is not as large as the global rape epidemic, hundreds of thousands of innocent people in prison is unacceptable and is an epidemic) they are met with petty shaming language tactics and told that exposing the fact that women lie is a sin.

Read over any feminist organization site or blog site and you will see article after article and comment after comment about men (like Paul) being spoken of as part of the problem. He, like millions of other men are fed up with the little to no legal action being taken against false accusers. Those four men were in jail for something they didn’t due. There are men that have been in prison for years for having consensual sex with an accuser. Some are there without any physical contact with their accuser at all.

Now before any of you bring down your righteous fury saying how hard it is for women to prove they have been raped, don’t waste your time. I am well aware of the fact that courts are beginning to require more and more evidence to convict men and women of rape. And you know what? Good. For all of you out there that wish things would stay the same and a woman would only need to point her finger at a guy to send him off to prison you can bugger off. If you really want to put an end to this “rape culture” then you should advocate for equal jail time for accusers. All of those men who had their lives destroyed by women like Crystal Mangum or the one in this most recent case won’t get that time in prison back. The men who are proven innocent before they are sent to prison won’t get the jobs they lost back, the wives or girlfriends they lost back, they won’t get their children back, and they won’t get their good names back.

False accusers that actually are sent to prison go for months, a year at the most. Mostly, nothing happens to them. Under the law a false rape accusation is a damn misdemeanor. That is why it is so common because there is barely any punishment. There are women who falsely accuse more than one man of rape and or sexual assault over a period of a few months, and the accused are always arrested.

If you want to put an end to the outrage over false rape accusations and let the public focus return to where it should (combating actual rape) then advocate for increased punishment for false accusers and protest the demonizing of the accused. When women will accept the fact that false accusers lie out of spite, to hide the fact that they cheated on a spouse, and or embarrassment instead of the age old mental illness defense, the easier it will be for justice to prevail. The harder it is for a woman to falsely accuse someone of rape the more reluctant they will be to do so. When the idea of falsely accusing someone is not even an option then it will be easier for actual rape survivors to come forward.
baraqiel September 20th, 2009
11:10 am

#112

@J – Here’s the thing. I already proposed, in comment #73, a way to make, as you say, “the idea of falsely accusing someone is not even an option”: make rape less common. In your system, actual rape survivors lose because it’s harder for them to get justice, and actual rapists win because it’s easier for them go to free. In my system, everyone wins except rapists. That would seem to indicate that my system is a better way to go about fixing this problem than your system, unless of course you have sympathy for rapists, which I do not.
Pierce Harlan September 20th, 2009
1:18 pm

#113

Women shouldn’t be shamed about their sexuality. Now, cheating on a boyfriend with five guys . . . now that’s not exactly conduct that can ever be codoned. If men could get away with lying about rape, I am sure they would do it just as often as women.

In any event, it doesn’t excuse women who commit the crime of false reporting rape. I don’t recall hearing anyone suggest that a rapist’s motivation for his crime — many were abused as children — should excuse his act, either. That doesn’t mean we should ignore the culture that led to it. It just means that criminal acts need to be both deterred AND understood.

It comes down to this: attempts to blame our culture for false rape claims are often also attempts to excuse criminality that victimizes men and boys almost exclusively.

I say, yes, let’s change the double standards, but we can’t stop condemning criminality, whatever it’s motivation.
J September 20th, 2009
2:35 pm

#114

@baraqiel

Yes your system is better because you say so, got it. Thanks for the cute assumption that I have sympathy for rapists too.

Putting an end to rape is a noble goal but it is something that will never happen through advocacy or organizations. Why? Because we are human. Men and women rape and it will never stop until technology has advanced far enough for law enforcers to be 100% positive in their arrests regardless of the steps the criminals take to remain hidden. This would be the ultimate cure for rape and false rape.

So pretty much your whole “I’m right and you’re wrong because I say so” argument is pointless. In my former post I made the argument that ignoring the atrocities caused by false allegations is just as wrong as rape. Why? Because lives are destroyed in both cases.

I made an argument for false accusers to have heavier punishments yet in your response it seems you disagree and dare I say it, sympathize with false accusers, (see I can do it too), which I do not.

I fail to see how sentencing false accusers with heavier punishments (actual jail time) makes it harder for survivors to come forward. If someone is raped, man or woman, they report it. When it is reported it is taken to trial. Evidence is provided. Evidence…not just testimony…if that evidence proves the accused is the assailant then that person is sentenced. Is it hard to go to trial? Sure. However, that does not change the fact that court is there for a reason, to obtain justice. Justice isn’t obtained by giving the guilty a free pass and saying “don’t do that again” which is what most likely will be done with many false accusers to come. I couldn’t care less how hurt a man or woman’s feelings are when they take someone to trial on a rape charge. Court is not there to make you feel comfortable it is there to give people fair justice. If any man or woman is too hurt from being called names or afraid to look a jury or the accused rapist in the eye then tough because it is the same for people who take murderers to trial. Speaking of murderers, the whole argument of supporting non punishment for false accusers or not focusing on them is the same as this scenario: A woman goes to the police station and tells them that her next door neighbor murdered her parents. The neighbor would be taken into custody without any questions as done with alleged rapists. After police find no evidence linking the neighbor to the crime the case would be taken to court as done with alleged rapists. The neighbor would be convicted and sentenced to years in prison as done with alleged rapists.

Now that sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? A man being convicted of murder with no evidence, just testimony. It sounds ridiculous because it is. That shit does not happen. So why the hell are men sent to trial on rape charges on pure testimony (rhetorical question with no need for an answer). Is rape worse than murder (also rhetorical)? Since men are the victims of this atrocity they have taken the time to study why it happens and of course those on the other side disagree. No surprise there.

Before you mention it, yes I saw that you think it’s oh so horrible that this is happening to men but as I state to many feminists your opinion means as much to me as mine does to you.

A sensible person would advocate for measures to be taken to end both of these epidemics. However, I see the plan of a lot of “equality” driven feminists is to ignore punishment for one and focus only on the problem they believe effects them the most. To each their own I suppose. I myself will will lobby for jail sentencing for false accusers equal to that of convicted rapists while at the same time advocate for more programs to help educate those about the horrors rape survivors face and how wrong it is to commit such a crime. Because that is all it is, a punishable crime, not a right being stripped from any woman or man.

I have seen a lot of feminists say to men and women outraged over this situation “I hope your mother or sister or aunt is never raped.”

Well in the same respect I say, I hope your father, brother, or husband is never falsely accused.

Your analogy of the barbecue compared to rape is unrealistic. Burning down a building isn’t human nature, sex is and contrary to popular feminist belief rape isn’t all about power over someone. If rape statistics (real ones) fell to 2% globally that would not change the mindset of the populace. It would just enhance the shock value of the crime. This wouldn’t end false accusations by the way.

Like I said stopping rape is a worthy goal but so is stopping false accusations and focusing on stopping one is no more noble than focusing on the other. I can pretty much state the same thing as you with a twist.

The very best way to prevent people like her from being able to undertake such actions is by making it harder to believe them when they lie. The best way to do that is by making false accusations less common, and the people who have the power to do that are the people who make up the vast majority of false accusers: women.
baraqiel September 20th, 2009
4:54 pm

#115

False accusations are, as I previously said, an ancillary effect of a larger problem — the problem of rape. If you have strep throat, one could say you have two separate problems: a cough and a bacterial infection. What you are saying is that the couch and the infection are equally bad and that it makes sense to treat the cough first and wait for the cough to go away before you treat the infection. But if you treat the infection, the cough will go away on its own. If you stop rape, the problem of false accusations will no longer be a problem. It will go away on its own, because there will be little to gain by making a false accusation. Some people will make false accusations to be vindictive — this happens with every other crime as well and yet no one seems outraged about that. But without rape culture, as Amanda argues, there would be no need for a woman to claim that she had been raped in order to avoid negative social consequences for sexual activity that she wanted.

But this is very telling: “Putting an end to rape is a noble goal but it is something that will never happen through advocacy or organizations. Why? Because we are human. Men and women rape”

First of all, statistically speaking, you’re wrong. Although women do rape, the rate at which women rape is effectively zero compared to the rate at which men rape. It is negligible. A rape by a woman is an outlier, an aberration in the data. To say “men and women rape” as if the two do so with any comparable frequency is a farce. The problem, on the social level, is that men rape, and they primarily rape women. The way to stop rape on the social level is for men to stop raping. It is not human nature for men to rape. It is a choice that men can stop making. The responsibility for the end of rape lies on men. So how about this? I’ll talk to other women about not making false claims of rape as soon as you start convincing men not to rape. For every man that you talk to and convince that rape is a problem that they have the ability to solve, and that the responsibility is on men to obtain enthusiastic consent if there is even the slightest doubt that their partners are not completely willing to be doing what they’re doing, and that a woman’s body is her own and touching it without explicit permission is an unacceptable way to act — for every man you convince, I will talk to a woman I know and make sure that she’s clear on the idea that lying about being raped is something you just shouldn’t do. How about that?

Moreover, it seems like your argument against a system that focuses on reducing the prevasiveness of rape in order to solve both the problem of rape and the problem of false rape accusations is that people (men) won’t stop raping because it’s human nature. But you think people will stop lying? As pervasive as rape is, people don’t rape nearly as much as people lie — so good luck with that one.
recursiveparadox September 20th, 2009
8:35 pm

#116

@Ted:

That saying is incorrect. There isn’t a kernal of truth behind every stereotype. Some stereotypes are literally made up bullshit created out of rumor mills and from people who don’t understand the people they’re discussing.

And quite honestly, those guys who were my friends and giving me a hard time? They didn’t think they were giving me a hard time. Just like the girls who now tell me that my neckline is too low and it makes me look slutty don’t think they’re giving me a hard time.

They think they’re helping. It just does more harm than good.

Ted quite honestly, if you think rape culture tries to excuse criminal behavior than you have absolutely no idea what the theory of rape culture entails. It describes a set of cultural norms and viral socializations that make things more likely. In the end an individual must make their own decisions. A girl who can’t resist the peer pressure to appear a chaste virgin and say no when she means yes has given in to those cultural norms and that is her failing. A guy who goes out and bangs 20 women in a row, some of whom are too drunk to move much less consent, is responsible for his own actions and giving into those social norms.

If someone makes a false accusation of rape or rapes someone, /they are in the wrong/. This is invariably. The words rape culture have no bearing on that wrongness. Their actions are ethically unsupportable. What rape culture has bearing on is what makes these things so likely and how we can reduce those pressures on folk. Reducing the pressures will make it easier for folk who don’t have the intensely strong will to fight social norms. And that sort of will is very rare so I think it would be good to fix this problem, don’t you?

“society will NEVER accept a woman having sex with 5 people at one time”

Long ago, folks thought society would never accept the kind of free love that the 70’s brought. Yet that happened. The things we believe society will not accept are probably more acceptable than we realize. We might not see the day it happens but it can and likely will happen.

“I would argue that men in porn aren’t as well known and therefore can move around without being harassed as much.”

What basis do you have for this?

“Secondly, women are the enablers in the porn industry.”

The porn industry is built on the capitalistic realm of appealing to an audience. There will always be folk who need the money or who don’t see a problem with it and will work in porn. The industry doesn’t exist because of them, it exists because of the market that desires it. Hell, people would use puppets if no woman involved herself in porn. And there’s animated porn too. The market goes for it that much.

“I heard in a documentary that a male porn director with kids moved out of his neighborhood after the people found out what he did. The neighbors would not allow their kids to play with the kids of the man and he and his family became outcasts.”

What documentary?

“It’s called complacency. When people are used to engaging in an activity over and over for an extended period of time, they start negating certain safeguards that they originally maintained.”

Except when they specifically incorporate the safeguards into the habits associated with the acts. It’s all about self training. One can have consistently safe promiscuous sex. One just needs to self train. This applies to everything, even driving cars. Train yourself to be safe.

“You saying that someone has to have a lot of sex in order to be good makes about as much sense as saying that you have to have a lot of sex with a person before you get good with that individual person.”

Practice makes good (not perfect, but good). Both of those statements make perfect sense (the latter even more so since learning someone’s needs does take time as they may not know all of them themselves)

“By your logic, every “first time” with a different person would be bad because you haven’t “learned” what to do”

Not really. Every person’s needs and likes are different. Up to a point. For pretty much 90% of women, the clitoris being stimulated feels good. So does the nipples. For 90% of men, the tip of the penis being stimulated feels good. So does the shaft area. Having some basic idea of where these things are and having the confidence to actually move about in bed with purpose is a good way to keep the mood going. Fumbling (and virgins are pretty notorious for this) tends to kill the mood.

Another thing that having sex with different people does is that it makes it abundently clear that trying stuff is a good idea because of these different needs. You can try out some of the things you’ve tried with other people and you may end up surprising your partner with something she or he didn’t know they’d like.

“If you have trust issues, I would assume to some extent that they have to do with bad experiences that you have had prior.”

Rape would be a bad experience, yes. Of course, the rape in question has nothing to do with multiple people sex. So I fail to see how my experience has anything to do with your point.

“That said someone who decides to engage in sex prior to marriage has no right to get angry at someone who would write them off as a prospective partner based soley on the fact that they have had multiple partners.”

I never said they did. Different tastes and all. But that person who writes them off shouldn’t slur them or attack their decisions. Just make your personal call in your head and decline partnership. Plain, simple and non invasive.

“They are more likely to have serious trust issues that would make a LONG TERM relationship harder to succeed.”

I haven’t had a shit ton of partners so I don’t know how you’re using my trust issues (built from being raped) as a basis to establish the idea that multiple partner involvements hurt trust.

I mean, shit man, you are really running with this assumption. Having a bad sexual experience is usually just, “wow, that guy wasn’t very good” or, “that girl was a bit freaky and weird”. That kind of stuff doesn’t leave one emotionally/mentally shaken. A bit annoyed and frustrated maybe, a bit worried about one’s own taste in partners sure, but not shaken.

Rape on the other hand. Yeah that’ll shake you. But multiple sexual experiences are less likely to get you a rape. After all if you’re going out and fucking people, you clearly want to fuck them (or you wouldn’t do it) so it isn’t like you’re getting raped every time.

“As I said earlier, if we were to take out marriages based on superficiality and greed, the divorce rate would be much lower. People marry for looks, money, security, greed, expectations and so many other things besides love.”

Most of the folks I know who have divorced still love their divorced spouse but simply can’t make it work. Those divorces tend to be the most painful.

“Marriage ensures that parents try and work things out for the sake of the children.”

By staying together and making worse the problems that the kids are very much aware of and are seriously affected by? Wow that seems like a great call. There are a lot of issues that can’t just be worked out in relationships and trying to stay together “for the kids” ends up just hurting the them and you. Just another problem with the marriage paradigm in the West.

“Mostly WOMEN’S greed. They always think that they are entitled to more than they are.”

You are really fucking bitter, man. And making a lot of unproven blanket statements about women. It sounds to me like some girl hurt you really badly and it’s turned into latent sexism. That’s not good.

“Black families? Single mother with grandmother and aunt helping to raise the child. Absentee father. Child suffers. This is a prototypical example of what you were referring to and it is quite prevalent with the African-american community and it doesn’t work.”

Way to make another bullshit claim you have absolutely no evidence for. A racist claim too.

“By “some” you must mean women.”

In one breath you say that.

“It’s so funny to see women on entertainment news shows bitch and complain about how men get a lot of money for divorcing famous women.”

And in the next you say this.

Clearly your sexism is based on very little actual fact.

“I said that marriage in our society is built around the idea of a soul mate and that many people embrace that philosophy, yet do not follow through on that belief with the appropriate action.”

Okay, I misunderstood you.

Still, if marriage is based on the soul mate paradigm and soul mattery is a broken concept, wouldn’t you agree that a lot of marriages are being based on faulty reasoning and may have problems as a result?

“No, I don’t like the idea of women acting like trophies. Especially since many of them are a poor example of one. ”

You started out so good and then you said that second sentence.

So you’re cool with women being nothing more than status symbol objects to fuck and have in marriage as long as they act proper for a status symbol object to fuck and have in marriage?

Weak, dude. Really weak.

“I don’t see how you can say that making women out to be prizes promotes rape among men. I could very well argue that mens drive to purse women as “prizes” and go after the “best” prize is more of a evolutionary driven than a conditioned”

Because prizes can’t say no. And quite frankly, that’s some pretty misandrist garbage right there, claiming that men are biologically driven to objectify women. Don’t accuse us of misandry when you’re spouting it right now.

“But lets be honest about this.”

I’ve been honest this whole time, yanno.

“Most of this crap boils down to low self-esteem. If women had high self esteem, they wouldn’t care what people thought of them or their relationships, but because they have low self-esteem they shape thier lives around what people will think of them. All people do this to a degree, but women take it to more of an extreme.”

Where do you think that low self esteem comes from? From society treating women like shit. Where do you think that being treated like shit thing comes from? From being objectified.

Guess what objectification includes? Being treated like a trophy or a role instead of a person. And there you go, that’s how it all works.

“I never said that you said all men think about is sex, but you have been making very one-sided statements that conveniently ignore the other side of the story.”

Hurrrrr… what? I’ve pointed out the virgin shaming on guys, the damage that false accusations do, the fact that no alleged criminal should ever be revealed to the press until after a conviction, etc etc. There hasn’t been one sidedness to this. I’ve very adamantly supported guys doing what they need to do (whether that be searching for a deep relationship with one person to lose his virginity to or have lots of crazy sex) and same for girls.

“I have never been “hurt” by any woman, but what I have realized is that promiscuous women are shady and conniving. The few times I have been approached by them and knew their reputation ahead of time, I ignored them.”

No, they’re really not. Promiscuous women like sex. Most of them are pretty damn normal. They might be a bit open and inclined to TMI folk (sorry, hun, but I don’t want to hear about your pierced clitoris, thanks) but they’re not shady or conniving.

See this fucked up, completely inaccurate, very nasty bit of projection you keep doing is why I think you’ve been hurt by a girl before. Because it’s truly nonsensical. You’re acting like all of these women are nasty evil bitches who are out to hurt you. And that’s just crazy paranoid.

Quite honestly, people ought to respect each other’s needs. That’s not a promiscious only thing. Monogamous folk ought to not give poly folk shit either. That includes calling girls sluts. I haven’t once said you have to approve of it. I have said that you shouldn’t make an ass of yourself for it (I’ve also questioned your reasons for disliking it as I enjoy questioning things) by calling them sluts. That goes from disapproval to attacks and slurring. And I know you wouldn’t like it if a bunch of promiscious girls called a married couple, “breeders”. So seriously, show the same goddamn courtesy.

“you have to worry about gossip in the town and at your workplace.”

Maybe you need higher self esteem. XD

“You have to worry about negative preconceptions she may have as a result of prior relationships.”

I would argue that she has a better chance of being well rounded through experience. Able to see that there’s good guys and bad guys out there and be able to tell who you are from that.

“The more casual sex a woman has, the more likely she is to have a bad experience that leaves her emotionally scarred.”

I’ve yet to meet a single woman who has had an emotionally scarring experience from casual sex. Unless that casual sex became actual rape. And then well, that’s rape.

“To put it bluntly, some chicks become fucked up in the head from bad relationships.”

A surprisingly large number of women end up in one bad relationship as their only experience. So really, avoiding folk who have casual sex or a lot of experience doesn’t spare you much. There’s just a lot of bad relationships out there that hurt a lot of girls. I would say a girl who’s gone out again and again has a higher chance of getting a good relationship to show her the right way of things.
recursiveparadox September 20th, 2009
8:43 pm

#117

@J:

Um, we didn’t create the rape culture, jackass. We just describe it so it can be solved.

And quite honestly, any woman that tells you that men being jailed for false accusations is good or even a nuetral thing is an idiot. Now I’m sure you’ve gotten bad reactions cuz they see you trollin’ and hatin’ and all but in reality, feminists (who haven’t lost their minds) see this case (and many others) as a horrible thing.

As for men like Paul, yes he is part of the problem. Because people like him (and you) don’t see the causes here. They don’t comprehend them and so you are contributing to the rape culture and by proxy contributing to the men who get falsely accused.

Good job, champ.

“If you really want to put an end to this “rape culture” then you should advocate for equal jail time for accusers.”

That won’t end the rape culture. However it will reduce at least some of the false accusations. I would be willing to apply the bandaid of jail time for false accusations to the gaping wound of the rape culture provided you’re willing to work on the objectification of women, slut shaming on girls and virgin shaming on guys.

“protest the demonizing of the accused.”

I’ve already made it clear that anyone accused of any crime should not be revealed to the press unless you get a guilt conviction. For murder, pedophilia, theft, vandalism, anything. No reveals until you get a guilty verdict. And if you get no guilty verdict? No reveal at all.

I firmly support this idea. So stop projecting this man hating bullshit fantasy you’ve created of feminists on to me.

“Putting an end to rape is a noble goal but it is something that will never happen through advocacy or organizations. Why? Because we are human. Men and women rape and it will never stop until technology has advanced far enough for law enforcers to be 100% positive in their arrests regardless of the steps the criminals take to remain hidden.”

Yes, this view is clearly true because you say so, got it. *eyeroll*

Pretty much, your claim is that rape is naturalistic. Except that statistically very few women rape at all. Almost statistically insignificant numbers (and that’s a serious means to dismiss a group). So really, what you’re saying, is that men are naturalistically inclined to rape based on their biology.

And you call us misandrists. Wow.
recursiveparadox September 20th, 2009
8:44 pm

#118

@Alfonzeli:

Citation plz on your bell curve nonsense. XD

@Anon2:

I used to be a guy. So I know an awful lot about men. Good try, moron. XD
Alfonzeli September 20th, 2009
9:50 pm

#119

@recursiveparadox:

You obviously don’t know an awful lot about women, do you? You should have done your research before making the cut, eh? Here’s a good start (belated for you, but hopefully helpful to others contemplating the same):
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainstorm/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies

For more on what women like, go to:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/interviews/borden.html

For more on the men that women like, go to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/13/gender.uk

Google “rape fantasies” for an abundance on this secret that feminists don’t want you to know.

Let’s be clear about one thing. If you understand how nature works, then you will know that human sexuality, male and female, should be respected. But in light of this peddling of “rape culture” in complete ignorance of the sorts of issues raised in these links… now what was I saying about “slut culture”?

And google “bell curve” to find plenty more on a well-researched phenomenon as self-evident as the sky is blue.
baraqiel September 20th, 2009
11:17 pm

#120

@Alfonzeli – Um, rape fantasies aren’t a secret. There’s a lot of feminist analysis of them, actually, focusing on how eroticization can be a healthy way to deal with a fear, especially a sexual fear. It’s not like feminists are out there trying to censor the shocking news of rape fantasies. There are feminists who have rape fantasies and are totally open about it. The point of a fantasy is that it’s something not real that’s totally under your control — basically the opposite of a real rape. Women fantasizing about rape doesn’t indicate that women want to be raped. It is by definition impossible to want to be raped. Rape fantasies indicate, among other things, that rape looms large in the erotic psyches of many women because it’s a threat that women have to deal with every day and fantasizing about it is a way to control and process it.

But the idea that “feminists don’t want you to know” about rape fantasies is absurd. Feminists write about rape fantasies. The first link you cited quotes Tracie Egan, who is a feminist, writing about her rape fantasy. Obviously this isn’t something that there’s some feminist conspiracy to hide.

As for the other two links you cited: two women making a porno is not indicative of “what women like” as a class. It’s indicative of what those two women like. Women, being individuals, like many different things. What two women like does not extrapolate to what 3 billion people all like. Similarly for the Guardian article: the UK has around 30 million women in it and that article is talking about roughly 100. Women falling in love with men in prison is a weird phenomenon, but the men that .0003% of British women like is not a good indicator of “the men that women like” in general. And I thought you were so interested in the field of statistics!
Alfonzeli September 21st, 2009
1:12 am

#121

@baraqiel

You are trying to sanitize, sterilize and repackage something that is utterly primal. If I fantasize about becoming a pilot, then the odds are that I will do things that resonate with that fantasy culminating, eventually, in a career that fulfils that fantasy to the extent that I will take out a bank loan to become an airline pilot. The idea that rape fantasy denies fulfilment of the rape is politically correct, but it reflects a failure to understand how and why these primal drives arise.

If a narcissist fantasizes about, say, ruling the world and slaughtering whole populations in vengeful glee, then in view of the logistics involved, the vast majority of these narcissists will shirk from realizing the reality, and their appearance of normality in a normal life will continue, and no-one will be any the wiser. The fantasy, however, does reflect something about that person, and it manifests in how they raise their children, how they relate to other people. There is a very dark side to some of the narcissists that we might sometimes inadvertently stumble into.

I’m not criticizing women’s predisposition to fantasize about rape – it is not for me to criticize nature. Indeed, it is reassuring that women also have their moral obligations, that they also have a duty to confront the big questions of good and evil, not just men. For all their sanctimony, however, they are not as pure as the driven snow and they do not occupy the moral high-ground. What I’m criticizing is that women refuse to take responsibility for the subtle ways in which they can encourage rape. So we have this whole western slut culture imprisoning innocent men for crimes they did not commit, while women remain free to accuse with impunity, entirely unrestrained. And among them are women who actualize their rape fantasy, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly, in their come-ons and their behaviour, and they get off scot-free. What do you think porn is? Is not porn the actualization of some women’s rape fantasies? Some porn stars make no secret of precisely this… Sasha Grey doesn’t. There is no doubt about it. In view of the feminist predisposition to deny the primal realities of women’s nature, yet all the while encouraging them, we can only conclude that we live in a slut culture, not a rape culture.
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
8:08 am

#122

@Alfonzeli – In order to prove that rape fantasies are “primal”, you would need proof that they’re not culturally specific. In other words, you would need proof that women in every culture throughout history have had rape fantasies. Did the women in Classical Greece have rape fantasies? How about the women of the aboriginal cultures in Australia? How about the women of Nigeria? What about the Celt druidic cultures? The Aztecs? The Inca? The Etruscans? How about even right now: Greece? France? Morocco? Guyana? Because all of your evidence comes from England and America within the last 5 or so years. Proving that some women in two countries in the very recent past have certain fantasies is, again, not indicative of all women throughout history. Rape fantasies are not some “primal” thing that women have by our nature. They are culturally-specific. They are culturally-produced. They are a reaction to our culture.

As for this: “What I’m criticizing is that women refuse to take responsibility for the subtle ways in which they can encourage rape.”

Rape is by definition an action that lacks the consent of the one who is acted upon. You cannot encourage someone to rape you. It is logically impossible. If a woman is encouraging a man to do something, she is consenting. Consent is not a tricky concept. If a woman says “yes” or “please do this” or “I like that”, she is consenting. If she says “no” or “stop”, she is not consenting. If she is silent or crying, she is almost certainly not consenting (under our current definition of consent — in a model of enthusiastic consent, she is not consenting) and it’d be a great idea to ask her what’s up. It is that simple. If your penis is in a woman and she has not said anything at all that indicates consent, you are raping her, regardless of whether or not you think she was “subtly encouraging you” or “actualizing her rape fantasy in her come-ons and her behavior”. You have no way of knowing that that woman even has a rape fantasy without asking her, and if she says, “Yes, I fantasize about this, I would like for you to act this way towards me”, then you are not raping her because she has consented.

“What do you think porn is?”

Do you…do you know anything about the porn industry? Almost all producers, writers, and directors of porn are men. It is almost exclusively men who control the content of porn. So, no, I’d say that porn is the actualization of some men’s rape fantasies, which is frankly much more disturbing and much less healthy, since men are almost always the ones who rape.

And AGAIN: Sasha Grey is one woman working in porn out of hundreds of actresses. She is a very self-aware person, and I totally respect that, but her fantasy life says nothing about the fantasy life of every woman that works in porn.
Alfonzeli September 21st, 2009
11:07 am

#123

@baraqiel

You are paraphrasing things I’ve written out of context to give it a particular slant, so I’m not going to bother replying in detail.

Can you really believe that, apart from autistics, what a person always says is always what they really mean? If we accept Anais Nin’s famous contention that the longing to be violated is a secret erotic need in women, then this conjures up conflicting concepts relating to the forbidden, and the fear of the unknown. And immediately in this we see the potential for one part vocally, consciously, insisting “no”, but another part secretly, hesitantly, yearning for “yes”. This is Nin’s contention, not mine. It is also a dynamic played out in romance novels.

Think about the forbidden for a moment, if you will. Every culture has it. And so I AM talking about something primal, something that cuts across all cultures. Why? Because the forbidden is defined by culture. Sure, there are different forbiddens in every culture, but ultimately the most primal thing across all cultures is this notion of no-go zones, the notion of the forbidden. Anais Nin captures the essence of these notions in her writings, without spelling it out. If women are inclined to safe, predictable lives where routine defines security and a life worth living, it is this primal thrill of the forbidden that lurks in the shadows, an ever-present uncertainty that a fine lady of impeccable breeding might lower her guard to discover the depraved beast within.

Sasha Grey has had the guts to venture beyond the forbidden, and her journey is not yet over. Were you also to go there, you might discover things you could never have imagined and you would be justified in being concerned whether or not there was a way back.
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
11:34 am

#124

“You are paraphrasing things I’ve written out of context to give it a particular slant, so I’m not going to bother replying in detail.”

Great! When you don’t bother to debunk any of my points, that means I win!

But good job with still trying to take the words of one woman and say that they apply to every woman, ever. That’s the fifth time you’ve made that exact mistake. I guess it is really difficult to grasp the concept that women are individuals who have individual preferences and think individual thoughts, huh? The whole thing where women are people who are capable of actually communicating what they want on an individual basis — so complex! So challenging! I know that, as a woman, I certainly prefer to let Anais Nin spell out what I want instead of, for example, having my partner ask me. Because asking what your partner wants is just soooo much harder than reading some Nin and then assuming that what she says applies equally to all of the three billion women alive today. Yeah, good job with that one, champ.
Vet September 21st, 2009
11:49 am

#125

It’s crazy how Paul Elam can’t wrap his head around a simple and well laid out piece such as this. I guess since it criticizes something he obviously did, “slut-shaming” while ignoring the sluttiness of the men involved he just shuts down.

Not surprising.
Vet September 21st, 2009
11:52 am

#126

Did Paul REALLY make a claim that death row releases for innocence are 45% based on false rape without providing a link??? I imagine its more like 40% had the wrong guy, not that no crime was committed.
Sal September 21st, 2009
11:53 am

#127

Women will do anything they can to avoid accountability. They will go as far as crying rape to avoid being accountable for cheating on their boyfriends with five men; and then their ’sisters’ will rally to her side to protect her from being accountable for lying by inventing a ridiculous paradigm that blames men for everything. They will go much further than this, too, if given the opportunity.

Essentially, women are like children. They are incapable of accepting guilt or responsibility for what they have done, and will seek to offload the burden onto the nearest adult – or in this case, man.

Let me ask you: for every falsely accused man who is saved from having his life ruined by the sheer luck of video evidence turning up, how many are convicted due to the automatic presumption of guilt?

I’m not addressing feminists here, by the way. We all know that you take sick pleasure in men being punished, be they guilty or not. It gives you a warm feeling inside to know that a man who has done no wrong has been tarred for life and will now himself be gang-raped and tortured multiple times in prison. Even if you won’t admit it publicly, admit it to yourselves. He got what he deserved, didn’t he? That will teach men to be anything less than obedient slaves to the whims of women and their dysfunctional sexuality.

No, I am addressing the men here. You’ve done a fine job, gentlemen, but surely you see that this pursuit is fruitless. Argumentative women cannot be defeated through the application of reason, logic, example, nor appeals to justice, truth or even equality. Because, blocking the part of their brains responsible for reasonable thought is that part which is responsible for emotional outbursts, tantrums, aggression and vindictiveness. You could provide all the logical arguments in the universe, and it wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference about how she FEELS about a situation. And for her, that’s all that matters.

And that is why, even after the false accuser recants, feminists will scramble around frantically for counter-arguments to indicate that she actually WAS raped (even broadening the definition of ‘rape’ to make this applicable), or that somehow men are to blame for her false accusation, along with everything else. It’s because, for them, the FEELING that a rape occurred does not go away when the claim is recanted. They still FEEL that it did. And thus, this article.

Gentlemen, your message is sound, but just as you will never convince a brick wall that it is not sentient – it lacks the capacity to engage in discourse on the same level as you – you will NOT get through to these women, because their FEELINGS stand between them and truth, logic, reason, accountability, etc.

Rather, I propose you expend your efforts in a more constructive way, bringing the truth to all the men out there who have not yet realised that we are being victimised. Write to a male audience; they are, after all, intellectually capable of following your reasonable arguments, and are not held hostage by their feelings to anywhere near the same extent as women. The opposition to the article that we already see in these comments is proof that male consciousness is growing. Help it to bloom. But this cannot be done here.
Ohnonotagain September 21st, 2009
12:08 pm

#128

The old lie that 40-50% of rape accusations are false is a long-standing rape-apologetic. It’s based on a single study done on a single town that yielded odd results. Natch, misogynistic rape apologists – like all the pro-rape dudes on this thread, for example – champion that as if it applies to all rape accusations everywhere, despite the fact that the Fed Gov puts false rape accusations at the same percentage rate as other crimes, i.e. robbery etc.

boyz like these will do anything and say anything to ignore the reality of rape for one clear and simple reason – they’re afraid they’ll be accused of it. Either because they have done it and are afraid of consequences, or because they know someone who has and feel the need to protect them. They hate women, but aren’t man enough to admit it, so they project that hate onto women and make it our fault.

they’re pathetic little cowards, these rape-apologists.

And P.S. to the “women fantasize about being raped” moron upthread. Sweetiekins, rape fantasies DON’T EXIST. How in the hell can you call a fantasy that the women is ENTIRELY IN CONTROL OF a rape fantasy. I guess, if you hate women, love rape and still want to pretend you’re an upstanding guy, you’ll redefine any word to suit your pro-rape purposes.
Ohnonotagain September 21st, 2009
12:14 pm

#129

Addendum: it’s hilarious how boyz who know nothing about feminism declare it’s about hating men. It must be, amirite? Cuz they hate women so women must hate them.

C’mon you silly boyz. That “man-hating femmist” stereotype is so stale. It’s the 21st century. Grow up or continue your slide into irrelevance.
Victor September 21st, 2009
12:17 pm

#130

Am I the only one here who thinks Sal and Ohnonotagain should start dating?

They’re two peas in a pod… indentical in their inability to see outside their narrow view of the world.
recursiveparadox September 21st, 2009
12:40 pm

#131

@Alfonzeli:

You’re a moron. Rape fantasies have nothing to do with your idiot claims about sluts or attraction to power and everything to do with sexual repression needing a go around. Being able to surrender control allows a removal of guilt. Yanno that there are former Catholic guys out there with rape fantasies? Men are even less likely to admit it than women are but it is out there.

These are purely psychological aspects. Without some sort of evidence that the numbers show up exactly the same over every culture you have not a single leg to stand on to claim it’s naturalistic.

But hey, keep on thinking you know about women. Might want to do more research, champ. XD

And as for news outlets, give me scientific documentation. The news plays the sensationalism game. Accuracy takes second tier. Especially when they’re interviewing a woman who clearly has problems and believes in traditional roles for everyone of babymaker woman and provider man. And of course a very small percentage of the population engaged to jail birds clearly is a statement on women. *eyeroll*

Honestly, googling “bell curve” will give the basics on averages and the bell curve concept, you idiot, not whether it’s applicable to a men and women dating in the way you described. No doubt there’s bell curves for dating but the way you described it? No evidence, no win.

Get over it, babe. Or maybe do some real research instead of grabbing tiny percentages and the words of one or two women to decide for everyone.
recursiveparadox September 21st, 2009
12:47 pm

#132

@Sal:

Wow man, that’s the purist most distilled sexism I’ve seen in a while. Did you read a textbook definition of sexism and look at the examples to work out your argument? “Women are like children” Wow, man. Not a single other guy in these comments is spouting the same bullshit you are. When you make it this obvious you sap out all my fun. It’s just too easy and then I get bored.

@Ohnonotagain:

Semantics are fun and all but that’s really not the best way to attack his argument. A rape/loss of control fantasy is still just a fantasy. He can’t argue that women have a naturalistic urge to be raped because the fantasy is a simulation that can be immediately ended (and often is by safewords) and when we’re actually raped it hurts us and is nothing like that fantasy at all.

Trying to attack him calling it a “rape fantasy” at all doesn’t really do much because plenty of very feminist women call it the same thing. The semantics of it simply don’t suggest that we want to be raped despite what he thinks.
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
12:49 pm

#133

@Ohnonotagain – Fantasies of the type that Alfonzeli is, apparently, obsessed with do exist — some psychologists call them “ravishment fantasies” for exactly the reason you mention, but they are popularly known as “rape fantasies”.

As for everything else you said, I’m on board. I mean, the staleness! Almost everything Sal said could have been taken from a follower of Rousseau in the 1700s. Three centuries some men have been spouting this “women are like children and incapable of logical thought” nonsense. At least now it’s a minority view!

You might enjoy this anecdote from Deborah Tannen, a sociolinguist:
‘When I wrote a book devoted to gender differences in ways of speaking, I sent the manuscript to five male colleagues, asking them to alert me to any interpretation, phrasing or wording that might seem unfairly negative toward men. Even so, when the book came out, I encountered responses like that of the television talk show host who, after interviewing me, turned to the audience and asked if they thought I was male-bashing.

Leaping upon a poor fellow who affably nodded in agreement, she made him stand and asked, “Did what she said accurately describe you?” “Oh, yes,” he answered. “That’s me exactly.” ‘And what she said about women — does that sound like your wife?” “Oh yes,” he responded. “That’s her exactly.” “Then why do you think she’s male-bashing?” He answered, with disarming honesty, “Because she’s a woman and she’s saying things about men.”‘
J September 21st, 2009
1:09 pm

#134

@recursiveparadox

Is there any way that you can deny that technology that would be 100% effective in finding a perpetrator of rape wouldn’t put an end to the epidemic? I realize I didn’t type down that it was my opinion but I also didn’t say “I’m right and you’re wrong because I say so” as baraqiel did in her first post to me…Jackass.

Reading a blog and stating my view on the subject in its comments section warrants me the title of troll….because you say so….got it. I am hatin’ because I don’t believe in an ideology that blames my gender…ok.

Women do not rape as much as men do, at least not in the whole back alley scare tactic sense that feminists love. However according to a lot of your holy texts, if a man and woman are drunk, regardless of who initiates the sex, if the woman and the woman alone changes her mind about the events that took place, then she has been raped. This fact has landed many men in jail so using common sense, something you seem to lack I will say that every drunk man that has had sex with a drunk or sober woman has been raped. On top of that, every man be he married or only dating a woman that is having sex with her and says stop and she does not has been raped. Playing field is a little even now ain’t it?

@baraqiel

The idea of a rape culture is complete idiocy. As I said before it is human nature for both men and yes women to rape (Statutory rape anyone?). Before the ease that technology brought to life which allowed for greater moral values instead of the old survival of the fittest men and women were procreating like crazy. If they didn’t none of us would be here, the human species would have died off from disease and nature before enough of us populated the earth. People got smarter and civilizations grew and these things called laws were invented (by you know who). These laws made rape in some places punishable by death. I don’t think men would kill other men for doing something if they all secretly wanted to do it.

In this day and age in the west you say that rape is a major problem, which I agree, but when I say that false rape allegations should be focused on too you say forget that because it is a by product of a “rape culture” (mens fault) and if we stop that then we will stop false allegations. Ok…….ok…..tell me what (mens fault) culture is the cause of false domestic violence claims used by girlfriends to sue their (rich) partners or wives to help (as if they need any) get the kids and house in a divorce. Tell me what (mens fault) culture created the need for women to lie about sexual harassment to sue their (rich) co-workers or (wealthy) companies. In this supposed rape culture someone (men) has created a worldview where women feel embarrassed to have sex via “slut shaming” and the like. This intense embarrassment compels young ladies to cry rape after cheating on their partner and are about to be caught. Oh wow I see it now…all of those instances where I’ve seen women on police dash cams being given a ticket or arrested and then turning around and saying they were raped by officers were so embarrassed by the (mens fault) culture that they just had to lie about being assaulted. None of these instances were out of spite or fear of being caught, after closely studying “why” these women lied my eyes have been opened to this (mens fault) culture.

Look, humans lie and women it just so happens, are human. The girl in this case lied because she didn’t want her boyfriend to find out. The women who lie about rape usually are doing so out of spite towards someone, they don’t want their parents to find out they are having sex, or they don’t want their husband or boyfriend to find out they are cheating. All of these facts aren’t because “I say so” they are well documented and well known. It isn’t surprising though that whenever a social epidemic sprouts up that is mainly caused by women, feminists always try and find some blatantly obvious shield that redirects the blame on men. What (mens fault) culture will you attribute the cause of paternity fraud on hmm? That is a growing epidemic as well where women lie to collect (you guessed it) money.

As I already said, false rape allegations to me are just as bad as rape, worse in some cases. Also rape isn’t some special crime that you can put above others. Murder is worse. Kidnapping is worse. A lot of things are worse. I stand by my view for stopping both by advocating for better methods of stopping rape and for heavier punishments for lying about it.

I’ll pass on that working on the objectification of women. Sorry but putting an end to name calling isn’t high on my to do list for bettering the world. One final look into the (mens fault) culture of yours and we will find little miss innocent in high school getting it on with her jock pick of the week. Afterwards she starts hearing people talking about her, “oh her? Yeah she’s easy I banged her yesterday” her feelings will be hurt and the next time she gets it on she changes her mind and consensual becomes rape. That pretty much sums up your (mens fault) culture right? She is so hurt and embarrassed from how guys brag about sleeping with her and how her girlfriends laugh at her that she has to always lie about having consensual sex. This follows her into adulthood where she continues the practice. ……How bout owning up to what you decide to do and stop trying to find something or someone to blame for your actions. Rape culture is utter bullshit. Your theory (and I use that word lightly…fabrication is more like it) doesn’t explain some woman cheating on her husband and then crying rape when he finds out. She isn’t afraid of slut shaming she’s afraid of getting caught cheating.

If you want to believe that somehow men are in some way consciously and subconsciously responsible for every major problem on this planet you go ahead. I will keep my mind planted firmly in reality and men like Paul (and me) will continue to fight rape and false rape allegations because they both deserve to be fought.
MustangSally September 21st, 2009
1:17 pm

#135

Ouch!! I followed that link to the MR site and now my eyes are bleeding. But apparently that evil monster was lurking in the men’s room, just waiting to ambush those pure, innocent young men. Then she restrained them, held a p*ssy to their heads (or some other lethal weapon – like a naked boobie) and FORCED them to have intercourse with her. All in some dastardly plot to then falsely accuse THEM of raping HER – in order to ruin their lives. Because that’s what women do when we all take off to the ladie’s room en masse. Conspire to RUIN men’s lives. If it’s not false accusations of rape well then it’s sperm-stealing so they can intentionally impregnate themselves and enslave the father to 18 years of child support.

Where’s the victim-blaming in a false rape accusation? We’re all about telling women who actually *were* raped (and I’m still not convinced she wasn’t) that they “asked for it” by dressing too sexy, or walking alone at night, or having a drink of alcohol. Why don’t we hear the same about stupid boys who are oh so eager to live out their Penthouse orgiastic fantasies in a men’s room? Where’s the slut-shaming there?

Society constantly (though erroneously – they’re still going to be targetted no matter how they dress) tells young women “If you act like a slut don’t be surprised when you’re treated like one.”

Why isn’t society saying to young men, “If you act like a rapist, don’t be surprised when you’re treated like one either”??. Unlike women, who in the end can’t control whether or not they are raped you do have the power to control whether or not you DO rape, and believe it or not – even have the power to control being unfairly accused of same.

Just keep it in the pants, son. If there’s no sex, there can be no rape – real or imagined. And maybe, unlike women you SHOULD go everywhere alone. Because contrary to all logic – there’s no safety in numbers. Quite the cotnrary. Apparently the more dicks you have in close proximity, the higher the odds of said dicks being targetted by those evil succubi for wanton rape framing.
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
1:27 pm

#136

@J – I’m not even going to ask what justification you’re using for claiming that huge numbers of women are lying about being sexually harassed or domestically abused — just because a man says he didn’t do it doesn’t mean the woman is lying, shockingly. And equating rape with statutory rape is not logically sound. If the two were the same thing, they wouldn’t be different crimes, now would they? Statutory rape deals with consent in a legal sense and how minors don’t have the ability to give it. Rape just plain deals with consent and rapists ignoring the lack of it. Not really the same concept at all — especially when you consider, again, the vast difference between the rates at which women of all ages are raped by men and the rates at which minor boys are statutorily raped by adult women. The latter is minuscule compared to the former. So no, we’re still discussing men who rape, not “men and women”.

As for your little pseudo-history there, rape was punishable by death because it was seen as a property crime. A man raping an unmarried woman was committing a crime against the woman’s father’s property (his daughter) and a man raping a married woman was committing a crime against the woman’s husband’s property (his wife). However, marital rape was completely legal. Regardless, the question was not one of a crime against a woman, but a crime against another man — this says nothing about the male respect of consent or lack thereof at the time

You making up a story about some fictional high schoolers isn’t exactly evidence of anything except I guess maybe your feelings about high school girls, so skipping right over that one…

“I’ll pass on that working on the objectification of women.”

Interestingly, I never proposed that you work on the objectification of women. I proposed that you talk to men about not raping women.

But if you’re willing to try to convince men to stop raping women, how exactly do you plan to “fight rape”?
Anon September 21st, 2009
1:53 pm

#137

“You might want to take a basic psychology class. As much as you’d like to pretend that other people’s words don’t affect you, they do. Surprisingly a lot in fact. It’s why things like brainwashing work so effectively on… anyone. Literally. Tough minded, strong people still fall to brainwashing. Because the human mind is still something that responds to stimuli. If you get beaten enough by a bright orange colored lead pipe, you will invariably begin flinching from orange things shaped similarly.

You can be trained, like any other human being. And words train.”

How do you, as a feminist, know that you have not been indoctrinated through the repeated and thorough study and use of Feminist philosophy? How do you know that you are not “brain-washed” with words like patriarchy, rape-culture, empowerment, and glass ceiling?

I knew something was wrong with our culture when my mom divorced my dad for no reason other than he was boring, and precided to raise me and my brother with the belief that sense we were male, we were “lying, cheating, abusive, violent, lazy, no-good bastards”. And you are right. I believed her words. And after suffering my whole life for repressing my natural masculinity, the pain of allowing others to walk over me rather than stand up for myself, and having girls consistently reject me because my ego wasn’t over inflated, finally snapped me out of it. For everything wrong with masculinity, there are multiple things good about it. Men aren’t rapists because of masculine nature, but human nature, however we beat, imprison, and kill rapists because of masculine nature, because our masculine natures still respect honor, integrity, and justice, despite our post-modern world of moral relativism.

Are we more prone to violence and force than women, sure, but in the world we evolved, the capability of violence and force was needed to survive and protect the village, including the women and children. Modern society, instead of redirecting those masculine energies through competition in school, seek to suppress them. Suppressing masculinity leads to an eruption of it, maybe even sometimes to rape. Don’t deny our nature to us. If we do not understand it, if we shame it, if we make it something “wrong” and “damaged” we cannot refine and refocus it to benifit our modern society. We are equal, but we are different. We are equal, but we are different. We are equal, but we are different.
Leslie September 21st, 2009
2:24 pm

#138

Boy, all of the rape apologists and rape justifiers and rape excusers on this thread are kind of blowing holes in the whole, “Rape culture is just a figment of the feminist imagination” idea.
Jennifer September 21st, 2009
3:05 pm

#139

I have never called any woman a slut to her face.

Bullshit.
Anon September 21st, 2009
4:35 pm

#140

“Boy, all of the rape apologists and rape justifiers and rape excusers on this thread are kind of blowing holes in the whole, “Rape culture is just a figment of the feminist imagination” idea.”

Um, care to extrpolate further. How does arguing that there is no rape culture blow holes in its own argument? And how does that make us rape apologists/excusers/justifiers? We aren’t saying there isn’t any rape, just that our culture could hardly be defined as a rape culture when it actively trys to prevent rapes through laws, customs, and education. It’s like saying we have a DUI culture just because it still happens too much. And your shaming language is weak. Why not call us what you really want to call us, plain old “Rapist”. That should shut down thoughtful debate real quick, something you apparantly are afraid of.
harchickgirl1 September 21st, 2009
6:15 pm

#141

“First, since when do we fight serious criminality in one area, such as rape, by refusing to punish serious criminality in another area, such as lying about rape?”

The problem here, fellows, is that prosecuting lying will only lead to no recantations.
J September 21st, 2009
6:57 pm

#142

@baraqiel

Of course you won’t ask what justification I am using for claiming that women lie about DV, Sexual assaults, and paternity fraud. Feminists don’t want to hear the facts that back up these claims and when they do they brush them aside so I will spare you.

Guess you didn’t read what I said about those police dash cameras. Guess you haven’t heard about the latest case of false DV from Tila Nguyen against her boyfriend that she has recanted (with no punishment of course). No of course not…women don’t lie about these things out of spite and for money…what was I thinking? I mean just because the guy said he didn’t do it doesn’t mean shit right? He’s a man. I am glad this philosophy is carried out whenever a man calls the police when his wife or girlfriend is hitting him and throwing things at him. I am also glad that when the police arrive they take his bruised and bloody self to the station and apologize for interrupting the lady. You see men don’t run around blaming some fairy land for the plights they face, they blame the law. The laws they blame are ones that were politically influenced by feminists.

I see so the only reason why rape was punishable by death was because it was seen as one man fucking with the property of another…I’m beginning to wonder if you got some man hate in you. Not sure and not accusing but I am just speculating. Anyway the crime of rape was punishable by death. If a man raped a woman, he died, period. Marital rape being acceptable? Of course and that goes both ways, so what is your point? Let me take a guess…who the hell is going to believe some sex crazed guy wanted to stop having sex right?

You seem to have conveniently left out the situation where a man can be arrested for consensual sex with a woman because she is drunk but the opposite is (as far as I know) impossible. Which would mean that men and women (you can’t get over this fact can you?) under the law rape. I can’t count how many men out there I know that have had sex with a woman while drunk then woke up regretting it. Of course he won’t be able to run down to the police station. But if she regretted it…

Fictional story about high school? There are boys who are suspended or kicked out of high school for having consensual sex with girls and the girls turn around and cry rape because their parents catch them or their boyfriends find out. So again as with many feminists I have talked to, you take something that is fact and brush it aside. The whole basis around this rape culture seems to be when said high school girl (or wife, or girlfriend, or random one night stand, doesn’t matter) gets too butt hurt from people making fun of her for sleeping around “slut shaming” as it’s called. I say oh well, contrary to popular feminist belief it is wrong to make up unjust and biased laws to support a woman’s hurt feelings and get back at those evil men. As I said before and still firmly believe rape culture or more properly stated, mens fault culture doesn’t exist. I know how fun it would be to fall back on a safety blanket of excuses to get around legal punishment for a crime you committed but those that live in a just world are fighting against that. You believe otherwise? Of course, you are entitled to because there is no secret group of men cooking up some other culture to keep women from having an opinion.

The objectification of women thing was at paradox, my bad for putting it in the response directed at you.

I am very willing to convince men to stop raping women. What I am not willing to do is treat every boy or young man like some future rapist. It is too simple to educate young men on their physical advantages over women and tell them it is wrong to take advantage of that fact. My parents did with me and if I decide to have children that is what I will do. Make educational books and videos if there aren’t already, which I’m sure there are. I mean it is like any other crime, educate people to not do it.

Another way I intend to help with rape is to nullify some of its classifications. Men are railroaded and classified as rapists for having sex with a woman while he, she, or both of them are drunk. The same is true when neither party is drunk and the woman just regrets the decision. That fact is present in this case. She had sex, regretted it, didn’t want her boyfriend to find out, so she cried rape. If that video wasn’t made then those men could have been facing serious jail time because if a woman regrets having sex, she has been raped. That is beyond wrong and takes all of the responsibility away from the woman even when she initiates. This, along with other feminist driven classifications of rape, have put the number of legitimate reports and false reports to what they are today.

That is my view for “fighting rape” thank you very much. But hey, I suppose I could lobby for putting a squad car in every dark alley and a sniper posted up with his crosshairs trained on a line of bushes. I know those evil rapist men are frothing at the mouth waiting for miss innocent to wander across their path.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this and I can say good day to you.
Leslie September 21st, 2009
7:00 pm

#143

Do you honestly think that our culture tries to prevent rape through its “laws, customs, and education?” I beg to differ. What good are laws if we don’t enforce them? And what about these customs? What rape-preventing customs are you talking about? And this anti-rape education–what’s that? Are you referring to my 7th grade self-defense class? Well, guess what–the lessons I learned in 7th grade self-defense didn’t help in either of the situations where I was raped. In fact, the only rape prevention education I know about is geared toward women and girls, telling them how not to get raped–which is NOT the same thing as telling men not to rape women in the first place.

You’re a rape apologist because your previous post was a litany of justifications for why men rape. Here’s an example:

“Suppressing masculinity leads to an eruption of it, maybe even sometimes to rape. Don’t deny our nature to us. If we do not understand it, if we shame it, if we make it something ‘wrong’ and ‘damaged’ we cannot refine and refocus it to benifit our modern society.”

So, what, men rape because they can’t express their masculinity in appropriate ways? Forgive me for thinking that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Men rape because they CAN, because they don’t care enough about women to NOT rape, and because our justice system does a piss-poor job of prosecuting rapists.

I care enough about men to not write them off as sexual deviants waiting to happen, and I’m pretty sick of the whole “rape is innate” argument. You’re doing a huge disservice to men by writing them off as rapists waiting to happen. Seriously. According to you, repressed masculinity has turned men into walking time bombs, just waiting for the right moment to subject unsuspecting females to horrible sexual violence–and yet WE’RE the man-haters? Give me a break.
J September 21st, 2009
7:23 pm

#144

@leslie

I saw some things that I said in your response so I will assume it was directed at me.

So no mothers and fathers educate their children not to rape? That is what you’re saying? I believe I said that if there are no books or classes on this then that is what I will advocate for.

I am a rape apologist because you say I am? I guess then I can call you a lying man hating schemer who wants to send innocent men to jail.

It is not my problem that you can get over the fact that the laws and classifications surrounding rape are one of the reasons innocent men are in prison.

“Suppressing masculinity leads to an eruption of it, maybe even sometimes to rape. Don’t deny our nature to us. If we do not understand it, if we shame it, if we make it something ‘wrong’ and ‘damaged’ we cannot refine and refocus it to benifit our modern society.”

Where oh were did I say any of that? I said in the past people fucked like rabbits because it is human nature to procreate. But now men do express their masculinity in appropriate ways and as I have said several times already, have created laws that punish rapists.

You seem to want women who lie, destroy lives, and send innocent men to prison to receive no punishment. Notice how I said seem, and didn’t flat out accuse you of something that I don’t know for a fact. Something that has been done to several guys here, but whatever.

As I said before, the law isn’t there to mend your hurt feelings, it is there for justice. Murder is still a big problem even though there are laws against it.

I wonder what would be your way of putting a stop to rape besides increasing the education for it? As I’m sure you’ve read I already suggested that. So besides the obvious joke I put in about the squad cars and snipers….what do you want to do? Throw every guy and newborn boy into prison before they have the chance to rape someone?

I strongly believe that, as I already said, when the technology for the truth behind rape accusations is better the number of rapes will drop.

So, if you have no more baseless accusations against me, I will bid you too, a good day.
DirkJohanson September 21st, 2009
7:27 pm

#145

Lets separate the forest from the trees. The root problems here aren’t “rape culture” or false accusations.

The real problem is represented by a simple catch-phrase: “murder and rape.” The real issue is that rape ain’t exactly murder. Not even close. Sorry, girls, including to my otherwise dear co-worker who recently voiced that rape is worse than murder: just because it happens to you more than us guys doesn’t make it a worse crime than it really is.

To be sure, rape CAN be a serious crime. For instance, rape of a straight guy by a fellow-guy is an unnatural and horrible and despicable act. It involves the insertion of one body part into another body part where it is clearly both not intended to go and where such body part is not welcomed by the recipient.

The very horribleness of guy-on-guy rape is what keeps most of us guys from a life of crime, which usually leads to more money and – as all of us guys know by now – both as a result of the crimes and the glam that comes with being the “bad-boy,” leads to more girls.

Rape is also a serious crime when involves the spread of disease, and can certainly be a serious crime when it results in an unwelcome pregnancy. And to be sure, rape is often accompanied by other serious crimes, such as murder and mayhem.

But whether something is a truly serious crime shouldn’t merely depend upon who is doing it. Rape, of course, does. Few women in the United States would deny themselves the opportunity to have Derek Jeter insert his penis in their vagina, not even knowing anything about Derek Jeter’s penis, and yet if another guy, possibly with a nicer penis and better cocksmanship, does the same thing without the consent of the girl, or even with her consent but falsely claiming he is Derek Jeter, he faces decades in prison.

In contrast to rape, now matter how much I adore, revere, often fuck, have dated, sex workers, and no matter how much I even want to someday marry a sex worker (contrary to the theory of the misguided girls that think guys hate sex workers), I wouldn’t even want the likes of Carmen Luvana to cut off my arm, or going all Lorena Bobbitt on me. That’s the difference between rape and mayhem – with mayhem, the act is virtually always a bad thing.

And, as vividly demonstrated by the Hofstra case, where the only “crime” these guys apparently committed was not inviting accuser Ndonye to breakfast the next morning, a serious crime isn’t something that could just as easily be the fantasy of a lifetime fulfilled. Especially when that fantasy of a lifetime is actually being forcibly raped. It can even be rape if the woman enjoys getting raped, as some surely have.

This is not to say rape shouldn’t be illegal. After all, guys, think about how disgusting it would be if a fat chick tied you down against your will, planted her smelly, hairy, yeasty pussy on your face, and kept gagging you with her filthy labia and engorged penis-like clit. Such a thing CAN’T be legal.

Personally, I abhor rape – even borderline, getting-a-girl-in-bed-by-claiming-to-be-Derek Jeter rape. OK, maybe that’s not so bad, but most rape is. I don’t want to see it happen to anyone, girl or guy. Its makes girls hate guys, its wrong, its cheating, and it denigrates the accomplishments of guys like me who can occasionally get hot chicks in bed voluntarily. And with hot 19 year-olds only a few phone calls, $200, and a couple of hours away courtesy of sites like Craigslist, raping is being cheap. In fact, in effect, its stealing.

A lot of guys don’t really understand why women consider rape so horrible. It sometimes looks to some of us like running over to console a toddler who just fell or knocked its head against something but didn’t think to start crying until everyone starts coddling. And even some of us thinks rape is a lot worse than it really is by putting ourselves into the woman’s shoes, but when we do so, we really, in effect, put our asses into the woman’s pussy, which makes it seem worse than it is, since its worse to fuck our asses – they aren’t for penis insertion, but pussies are. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the time, women quite like it when penises go in them – it makes them juicy, and throb in a good way.

What really drives the cult of rape, if not its “culture” as described by Amanda Hess, is that rape is about that favorite obsession of women, to wit: power. Of course, it isn’t about power for the rapists, just to the victim, because it shatters the illusion of power women carry with them. The true power of penis-worthy women emanates from between their legs – the limits they place on access to their vaginas, and the shortage of attractive women, is what keeps us paying attention to them, paying for their lifestyles, paying them cash, and coddling them like toddlers. Most attractive women considers only the most elite males truly worthy of their time and affections, and consider themselves the power equivalent of professional athletes, billionaires, and rock stars. Upon being raped, they suddenly realize that any old dreg in a dark parking garage has power of them, too, and the illusion is shattered. Women hate rape because its a reality check.

This isn’t just DirkJohanson speaking. The world, or at least any reader of The Balls Monologues, now expects a piece like this by me. Rather, other guys say things like this to me all the time – they bring up the subject, out of thin air. We are beginning to accurately assess rape.

By complaining about everything and anything under the sun for more than four decades about guys, including through what I call sperm libel (false, generalized statements about guys such as saying that we hate sex workers), by discarding equal protection under the law for empowerment, by using every trivial slight to attack everything guys do and attempt to garner the fruits of our labor through spurious lawsuit and claims, women have lost the issue of rape – ironically, perhaps the singlemost pro-woman issue guys felt most strongly about long before the Steinems and Dworkins and Ciccones came along. We used to take womens’ words for it that rape was horrible, but ladies, you’re credibility is shot now, not just because of Ndonye the Duke case, and other false accusers, but because of so much of what you’ve said in the past four decades.

So, society needs to come up with a new catchphrase to characterize serious crime. I propose “murder and mayhem”- it even alliterates.

Mayhem. Now that’s a serious crime!
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
7:31 pm

#146

“Another way I intend to help with rape is to nullify some of its classifications”

Oh, great, the St. Paul strategy! Too many rapes? Just make fewer things count as rape! Problem solved.

“Fictional story about high school?”
If you want something treated like a fact, you state it like a fact: cite sources. I’ll debunk that argument or treat it seriously if you want, but you’ll have to present it like a serious argument, with evidence apart from just you saying words.

“I see so the only reason why rape was punishable by death was because it was seen as one man fucking with the property of another…I’m beginning to wonder if you got some man hate in you. ”

Nope, not at all. What I have in me is historical knowledge from studying, among other things, the history of human sexuality. I mean, the history of the institution of marriage isn’t exactly obscure. It was a property transaction for millennia, ask any historian — hell, ask wikipedia. As for your little coda about marital rape being legal both ways, I suppose that’s theoretically true, although if the husband felt that his wife had raped him, he could simply kill her without repercussion, whereas the wife had no such power. Not exactly a situation of parity there.

And look, I’m not saying that women never lie about DV or rape or harassment. But the rate at which women lie about these things is far, far lower than the rate at which men abuse, harass, and rape women. A man saying he’s innocent is not sufficient evidence because how many criminals actually confess their crimes?

“I suppose I could lobby for putting a squad car in every dark alley and a sniper posted up with his crosshairs trained on a line of bushes”

You do know that stranger rapes are the minority of cases, right? It’d be much more effective to put a squad car outside every house and a sniper in every college dorm.

“What I am not willing to do is treat every boy or young man like some future rapist.”

And this is where an understanding of rape culture is useful. Don’t treat every boy like a future rapist. Treat every boy like someone who is besieged by messages telling him that neither a woman’s pleasure nor her consent is important, all that’s important is that he “score” as many times as possible with the “hottest” women possible. If boys and young men are going to fight a culture that tells them that they can rape with impunity — a culture where women are de facto approached as liars by people like the men commenting here, and where women’s active sexuality is derided as “slutty” by people like the men commenting here, and where men are seen as the victims of a legal system that is controlled almost entirely by men and set up to promote the interests of white men by people like the men commenting here, and where women are constantly portrayed as a group without individual desires or will and without the ability to communicate those desires or that will by people like the men commenting here — in that world, our boys and young men need all the help they can get not to turn into rapists.

And THAT is rape culture.
Leslie September 21st, 2009
7:38 pm

#147

No, J, my response was directed at Anon.
J September 21st, 2009
7:58 pm

#148

@baraqiel

Like I said, we agree to disagree. I already know that everything I stated about the law in my previous posts is true because (leaving out people that I know have been and are still being screwed over) a quick google or wikepedia search will bring up scores of information regarding it.

So according to you men are encouraged to hunt down as many women as they can and disregard all of her thoughts and feelings, rape her, yell out “score” and go on to their next target. That is so ridiculous it almost pained me to type it out. So in your world view, me, as a young man (every guy posting here is white right? Ok I will change my skin color for this argument) privileged by the government laws as I am, have been groomed or indoctrinated since birth to see women as conquests or targets. I suppose my parents had nothing to do with the way I turned out, only the media. Of course following this same media I also am indoctrinated to believe that every member of my gender is a bumbling moron who bows to his queen (wife) and obeys her every command just because I feel so privileged to be married to her.

Seriously, I will say this again, if someone can’t own up to their own crimes then there is nothing else that can be said to them.

I know that rape is a serious problem. I know that men have a natural advantage in committing this crime. The point is I can admit the faults of my gender. When the coin is flipped where the laws provide so many incentives for women to screw men over by simply lying I would expect grown women (a lot that I know and read from already have) to realize the faults of their gender. I in no way expect feminists to own up to any faults they have so that argument is irrelevant.

It is not my or any other man’s fault that some men don’t want to be with a woman who has had multiple partners just like it is not my fault that some women don’t care if men have. I myself personally don’t give a damn about a girl’s sexual past. So pretty much as I have said already I already know that I won’t change your mind on the whole rape culture theory. The point is, using a supposed psychological indoctrination to excuse the fact that someone lied out of spite or for financial gain doesn’t make sense to me. Do you care? No why should you?

Men and women lie ok? And I don’t believe some conspiracy that many people (feminists) would like to attribute the cause of to men is the cause. It’s a lame excuse. And you can add me to your count of men who has not once called a woman who sleeps around a slut.
J September 21st, 2009
8:00 pm

#149

@leslie

Oh my bad then lol.
Danny September 21st, 2009
8:07 pm

#150

This is not to say rape shouldn’t be illegal. After all, guys, think about how disgusting it would be if a fat chick tied you down against your will, planted her smelly, hairy, yeasty pussy on your face, and kept gagging you with her filthy labia and engorged penis-like clit.
You do realize you could have just been generic and just said “someone you don’t want to have sex with” right? You didn’t have to put fat women on the spot like that (if you aren’t attracted to fat women that’s fine but this example sounds like by default straight men don’t want to have sex with fat women).

To be sure, rape CAN be a serious crime. For instance, rape of a straight guy by a fellow-guy is an unnatural and horrible and despicable act. It involves the insertion of one body part into another body part where it is clearly both not intended to go and where such body part is not welcomed by the recipient.
Rest assured it is a serious crime. I don’t think its on par with murder but to violate someone’s body in such a manner is serious. Most people regard sex (or least they themselves having sex) as a very intimate and private thing. To be forced to perform such a private act at someone else’s will is very serious indeed. However I can’t help but note that the example you note is of a hetero guy being raped by another man. I’m sure you don’t mean to but it almost feeds into what you say later:

But whether something is a truly serious crime shouldn’t merely depend upon who is doing it. Rape, of course, does. Few women in the United States would deny themselves the opportunity to have Derek Jeter insert his penis in their vagina, not even knowing anything about Derek Jeter’s penis, and yet if another guy, possibly with a nicer penis and better cocksmanship, does the same thing without the consent of the girl, or even with her consent but falsely claiming he is Derek Jeter, he faces decades in prison.
The problem you point out isn’t a matter of famous vs. not famous but if the perp and the victim is male or female. Take a look at when an adult rapes a child. When a man rapes an underage girl for the most part the mainstream media has no problem pointing out that that man did a horrible thing to that girl but when a woman rapes a boy all of sudden they want to know “what made her do it”. The understanding we have of sex these days is that men must want it all the time and to not want it is to not be a real man and women are not supposed to want it at all and to want it is to not be a real women (or “lady” if you will). So when that man rapes the girl it fits the dynamic of him wanting sex and her not but the shit gets crunk when that woman rapes that boy because boys are supposed to want sex all the time so there is no way he could be violated and women are not supposed to want sex there is way they could violate someone to get it.

I would adjust your example to show what would happen if Derek Jeter raped a woman under false pretenses vs. Jennifer Love-Hewitt raping a man under false pretenses. People would be saying Jeter’s victim was raped but Hewitt’s victim should thank his lucky stars for getting “raped” (the quotes being from the person saying that as a way to imply that there is no way a hetero guy would turn down a sexual encounter with her).
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
8:09 pm

#151

” (every guy posting here is white right? Ok I will change my skin color for this argument)”

No, that was just about who the legal system acts to protect. You and I both know that men of color are much more vulnerable to the legal system than white men, that’s clear in prison and arrest statistics.

” The point is, using a supposed psychological indoctrination to excuse the fact that someone lied out of spite or for financial gain doesn’t make sense to me. Do you care? No why should you?”

Here’s what you and all the other guys posting here this entire conversation fail to understand: there is a difference between a reason and an excuse. Rape culture provides a paradigm to understand a woman’s reasons for lying about rape. It doesn’t excuse her. It also provides some reasons why rape is so pervasive, why so many men rape. It doesn’t excuse those men. And the reason why we call it “rape culture” instead of “rapey men” is because everyone is affected, men and women both. Rape culture is perpetuated by parents, by peers, by the media — by every means you can imagine. That’s why it’s a culture, and not a single phenomenon. The concept of rape culture is a tool to understand the paradigm in which individuals operate. It provides reasons. That is NOT the same thing as an excuse, for anyone.
J September 21st, 2009
8:19 pm

#152

@baraqiel

“Here’s what you and all the other guys posting here this entire conversation fail to understand: there is a difference between a reason and an excuse. Rape culture provides a paradigm to understand a woman’s reasons for lying about rape. It doesn’t excuse her. It also provides some reasons why rape is so pervasive, why so many men rape. It doesn’t excuse those men. And the reason why we call it “rape culture” instead of “rapey men” is because everyone is affected, men and women both. Rape culture is perpetuated by parents, by peers, by the media — by every means you can imagine. That’s why it’s a culture, and not a single phenomenon. The concept of rape culture is a tool to understand the paradigm in which individuals operate. It provides reasons. That is NOT the same thing as an excuse, for anyone.”

Well miss I do not agree with what you are saying but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

What you fail to realize is that the whole “reason” for women lying about rape is not only those that are articulated in the rape culture theory and as it turns out the number of women who lie out of spite, to avoid being caught cheating, and financial gain far outnumber those who lie because of slut shaming.

So as I said I don’t agree with the existence of any rape culture. I am all for helping to stop rape. I stated my views on this and don’t feel the need to state them again. So I respectfully disagree with you there.
Pyran September 21st, 2009
8:23 pm

#153

I see two problems here:

1.) I can’t honestly think of any justification for falsely accusing someone of raping a woman, man, or anyone else.

2.) This sounds to me like an unusual case, what with the video evidence and whatnot, and those are crappy cases to try to draw any major conclusions from.

Also, am I the only one here who thinks that the entire orgy was disgusting on sanitary grounds? I’m a man, and I use public restrooms all the time. I barely consider them sanitary enough to breath in, much less have sex. If they all enjoyed themselves, more power to them, but they could have picked a better place than a public men’s room.
baraqiel September 21st, 2009
8:30 pm

#154

I prefer ma’am, but thanks anyway.
Alfonzeli September 21st, 2009
9:50 pm

#155

@baraqiel:
deny, deny, deny

@recursiveparadox:
idiot blah, moron blah, idiot blah blah, idiot

Others:
Shame on men, men are rapists, shame, shame, shame
… but no shaming of sluts (followed by more shaming of men for blaming the victim).

Now… what was I saying about ours being a slut culture, not a rape culture?
DirkJohanson September 21st, 2009
11:46 pm

#156

Danny,

I like the attention, but you’re analyzing my post a little too closely.

First of all, I write humor, more or less.

Second, if an when you find a post by a woman taking a pro-female stance on gender issues half as long as mine or more and that is anywhere near as internally consistent and logical, let me know and I’ll start worrying about fine-tuning my posts. I’m 46 and still waiting to read my first one. One! OK, I’m exaggerating. Maybe there’ve been three.

The fact is, starting with my initial post in The Balls Monologues, which can be seen by clicking on my name, my intent is to parody. And on gender topics, to parody allows me to be as nonsensical, unreasonable, and extreme as women when it suits my argument.

This is not to say that I am generally nonsensical, unreasonable, or extreme – in fact, I think I’m pretty sensible and reasonable (OK, I can be a little extreme), but I don’t fine tune my posts for the slightest inconsistency. Rather, I prefer make the case for guys in the alternative.

Finally, I’ll worry about not offending women when women worry about not offending guys. In case you haven’t noticed, they love ranting on and insulting us like fat kids loves cake.

Speaking of fat, you wrote about my post, “You didn’t have to put fat women on the spot like that (if you aren’t attracted to fat women that’s fine but this example sounds like by default straight men don’t want to have sex with fat women).”

That’s right, Danny, I can’t speak for all of us, but it is indeed quite true that, by default, straight guys don’t want to have sex with fat women. For that matter, neither do gay guys!
Anon September 22nd, 2009
10:45 am

#157

You’re a rape apologist because your previous post was a litany of justifications for why men rape. Here’s an example:

“Suppressing masculinity leads to an eruption of it, maybe even sometimes to rape. Don’t deny our nature to us. If we do not understand it, if we shame it, if we make it something ‘wrong’ and ‘damaged’ we cannot refine and refocus it to benifit our modern society.”

A. You took that statement out of context to slant its connotation. Your clever. Good job.
B. A reason (and a shitty one at that, sorry I didn’t make that crystal clear, I forgot that people are looking to use every word I say against me instead of arguing against my broader points) is not a justification or an exuse. Putting words into my mouth is “verbal rape”. Don’t force me to say things I didn’t say.
C. Of the litany of rape justifications you claim I said, I see just one potential one, the one you mentioned. I would say you’re exagerating just to smear my character and give yourself the upperhand in the agruement. This is not so clever, just deceitful and unfair.

It appears you’re pretty good at twisting words to make people seem like the villian. I bet intelligent women like you would have no problem convincing a jury that a man was an evil rapist even if he was innocent. You’re probably smart enough to even convince yourself of many logical fallicies.

“Do you honestly think that our culture tries to prevent rape through its “laws, customs, and education?”

Um, yes, unless you grew up in a athiest/anarchist trailor park commune out in the middle of nowhere and you never went to college or read a newspaper….
Bob September 22nd, 2009
12:15 pm

#158

If you look at the Newsday you will see that this girl is going to face charges now. I wonder if her lawyer will use the “Rape Culture” defense. Thoughts anybody?
Leslie September 22nd, 2009
12:31 pm

#159

@Anon

Okay, I’m captivated–could you describe this culture of rape prevention? What types of anti-rape education programs have I missed? I’ve been to college. I read newspapers. I haven’t lived in a trailer park in years. Please enlighten me about these widespread and highly effective rape prevention techniques.

I’m all ears.
Anon September 22nd, 2009
3:45 pm

#160

“Okay, I’m captivated–could you describe this culture of rape prevention?”

First off, there is the laws on the books. Rapist, when proven guilty, are neither treated lightly by our courts or our prisons. I don’t know the sentencing guidelines for rape off hand, but its not community service I can assure you. Rapists in prison are one rung above child molestors. They are at the bottom of the pecking order, and suffer physical and psychological abuse at the hands of their fellow inmates daily.

Secondly is cultural. I’ve seen more men get in fights to protect the honor of a female than just about anything else. If a women is raped, and she has any males in her life that are supportive of her, they will hunt down and beat within inches of his life her rapist before calling the cops, and 9 out of 10 times (figure of speech) the cops will look the other way about the vigilanty justice. Of course I live in the deep South, and we roll a little differently down here. Also, any father, if you were lucky enough to have a father in our age of no-fault divorce, is going to warn his daughters not just about what is on the mind of every young male (sex) but what is also on the minds of some very sociopathic young males (coercion and rape). I would think moms would to, but I hear this speech as coming mostly from the horses mouth, fathers.

Thirdly, education. I remember talking about appropriate and innapropriate behavior in sex-ed classes. Rape was at the top of the list, and so culturally ingrained as being evil, there was hardly a discussion about it. You don’t need to teach kids that water is wet. And I went to college in the mid-90’s, woo boy, the height of take back the night marches and mandatory rape awareness siminars. There were classes, lecture, flyers, awareness raising events, you name it. It was definantly an anti-rape atmosphere. Antedotely; I was also in a fraternity that got kicked off campus for 5 years for partying and fighting. I never once heard about one of my brothers raping or being accused of raping a girl, and you can’t keep a secret about that stuff in a fraternity. We taught our members old fashion virtues of chivalry and respect. Maybe all the other fraternities were the “rape houses”, but not ours, the one known as the most rocous, drug fueled, hard partying fraternity of the time. I went to UGA by the way. I also read comic books, majored in art, and graduated Cum Laude, so don’t stereotype me as a frat boy. (Not that stereotypes just come from out of thin air, normally there is a grain of truth to them, I just don’t fit it)

Fourthly-

Feminism itself. How long have feminsits been around. I would say you’re a pretty pervasive aspect of our culture. Surely you’ve had some impact on the rape awareness situation by now. Don’t be so hard on yourselves, why I heard, ya’ll have even had some dainty little laws enacted through your political presence. Puhleasse, Feminsts are a huge special interest in our political climate with tons of power and influence, even indirectly through intimidation.
I wouldn’t be against feminism if I didn’t respect it. It is a worthy foe indeed, with a huge head start. But when it gets back to the cause of true equality, and young men are no longer treated as cannon fodder, wage slaves, future harassers and rapist, and violent neanderthalls whose natural sex drive is shamed and shunned, while also used against them in the dating world and through mass media, then we are on opposing sides of the fence.

And to further clarify, I’m a Democrat who loves Obama, so don’t bring the southern thing up, I can’t help were I was born, and the south ain’t all bad. We hold fast to a few ideals that I’m proud of. I’m also agnostic if I had to label my beliefs in a sentence, so my shit has nothing to do with religion, although religions often tap into universal truths, like the need for stable marriages for a healthy community.

I would summarise by saying, don’t stop fighting the bad things men do to women, just stop ignoring all the bad things women and men to do men, when men are taught to just suck it up, and take it like a man. Until now we have been nameless victims without a unified voice, as we spent all our time competing against ourselves to garner female attention and then later support our families, and names…names do have power, and our name is the Male Rights Movement, and Feminism created us, for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. The universe has a way of balancing itself, if I can get meta-physical for the moment. Do you ever think the pendulum has swung to far in your favor?
baraqiel September 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm

#161

-”molestors”: molesters
-”vigilanty”: vigilante
-”siminars”: seminars
-”Antedotely”: Anecdotally
-”rocous”: raucous
-”feminsits”: feminists
-”Feminsts”: feminists
-”neanderthalls”: Neanderthals
-”were”: where

Furthermore, the opposite of feminism is anti-feminism. The male and the female are not opposites in any biologically meaningful sense. The fact that you don’t know that feminism fights against the gender policing of men as well just shows that you don’t know much about feminism. We even have a phrase for it (the patriarchy hurts men, too). You might find this collection of essays by feminist men illuminating: http://www.xyonline.net/category/article-content/mens-fathers-rights
Anon September 22nd, 2009
5:24 pm

#162

Did you just correct my grammar! Do I look like your fucking student?! Am I writing a paper for you to grade?! Don’t ever try to subordinate me with your blatant shaming tactics! I have Aspergers, could not talk until I was 4, could not talk well until I was well into college, because I think in pictures, something the feminist education system thought was a disability until they tested my IQ. Your grammar means as much to me as the ebonics of a homeless man, I’m neither for nor against, but don’t impose your thought paradigms on me! Sorry I can’t draw you a picture of my ideas with my keyboard! The world, especially the education system, thinks their little mental word schemas is the best way to think! Einstein would disagree, as well as all the other great scientist with Aspergers who enabled you to know about gravity and other shit your linquist brain can’t fully conceptulize (actually conceptulazing gravity is kinda hard on a micro level, but thats not the point). I don’t need any more psychological abuse from the assembly line education system of politically correct word memorization, thank you!!

“Furthermore, the opposite of feminism is anti-feminism.”

What are you, the queen of opposites. What’s the opposite of a shovel? Smart ass.

“The male and the female are not opposites in any biologically meaningful sense”

OOoo, biology, a big word. Of course were not opposites, but feminism divided us, so we are definantly opposing each other. And biologically speaking, men are a mutation of women, and when mutations stick around due to their adaptive advantages, thats called evolution.

“The fact that you don’t know that feminism fights against the gender policing of men as well just shows that you don’t know much about feminism. We even have a phrase for it (the patriarchy hurts men, too). You might find this collection of essays by feminist men illuminating”

Read many of them. I’ve been doing this a while now. Agree in principle, I just don’t see any practice. How would you like it if I gave you a lecture on equality while only insuring my own rights and privledges? It would probably piss you off even more. I’ve never met a women who didn’t snuggle up in the warm blanket of female privledge all the while expecting men to carry on as uncomplaining beasts of burden as we always have. Even self professed feminist. No girls ever asked me out, bought me dinner, allowed me to raise my children, or fought in the front lines of a war to protect my freedoms. What you see as the patriachy by the way, is class elitism. And yes, it hurts men as well as women, but feminism doesn’t fight in the class warfare fight, unless its fighting for welfare for single moms, and that does more harm than good in the long run, because it accomadates and rewards bad behavior. I’ll be back tomorrow. Love the debate. No hard feelings, honest, men just play to win, dosn’t mean we don’t respect our opponent. Women might want to look into that. I think its called sportsmanship.
Bob September 22nd, 2009
5:37 pm

#163

@ Anon

Chill out she is baiting you!

@ baraqiel

Your use of a spell check to humiliate a guy who is typing a lengthily train of thought most likely in his office on an online posting board without the use of a spell check makes you look like a snotty 6th grader.

I am familiar with those xyonline dudes. We in the Men’s Rights Movement have a name for them: Mangyna. A Mangyna is a man who will do and say ANYTHING to win the approval of women. Also indicative of Mangynaism (and yes it is an “ism” like Feminism or any other ism which is not above questioning) is the belief that by abdicating the discourse to feminism all of societies ill will go away. This is bullshit. I am not going to have a bunch of people define for me my problems as a man when I am quite capable of identifying and quantifying them myself.
Leslie September 22nd, 2009
5:58 pm

#164

@Anon

1.) Getting a conviction for rape is rare. I’ve survived sexual assaults by two different men and neither of my attackers served any time at all. Why? Because I knew (even at fourteen years of age, which is when the first attack occurred) that the chances of prosecuting my rapist were slim to none. Without enforcement, laws against rape are useless. They are, literally, the absolute least our society can do. As long as our culture perpetuates the myth that women who enjoy sex are “sluts” and, therefore, can’t be raped, we aren’t preventing any rapes. We’re just telling victims to shut up and endure it in silence.

2.) It is little consolation to a woman who is raped that the men in her life will jump to defend her honor. Women don’t need men to resort to violence in a misguided attempt to bring about vigilante justice. That’s ridiculous, and it doesn’t help anything–the woman has already been raped. What good is violence after the fact? And while it is endearing to think of fathers warning their daughters to not get themselves raped, wouldn’t it make more sense for fathers to tell their sons not to rape anybody? Perhaps by setting examples of equality in the home so sons grow up to look at women as, you know, human beings, instead of creatures they can dominate and control?

3.) I have nothing to say about college fraternities. I was a drama geek and avoided Fraternity Row like the plague. But keep in mind that although you may not have heard about rapes occurring, this doesn’t mean they weren’t happening. There are some men who think it’s perfectly fine to take advantage of a drunk woman, or a silent woman, or a crying woman, and just because you didn’t hear the word “rape” doesn’t mean shit.

4.) I’m sure you meant to make a point or two about feminism, but you lost me with the condescension and anti-feminist rambling. You also tossed in more of this “natural sex drive” bullshit, as though rape is about sex instead of power, as though women exist to accommodate your erection schedule. You’re not entitled to pussy whenever you want it. But one word of advice–you’d probably have more luck with the ladies if you treated them with respect. Just a thought.

It isn’t feminism that has turned men into wage slaves and breadwinners–that’s the patriarchy (and it’s one of the ways that the patriarchy hurts women, just as baraqiel mentioned). As a feminist, I want to work and support myself and my children. I want to get paid a fair wage. I want to be in a respectful, fulfilling marriage with a husband who values me as a human being. Where is the disconnect? Why are these ideas so problematic?
Leslie September 22nd, 2009
6:23 pm

#165

Correction: it’s one of the ways that the patriarchy hurts MEN. I apologize for the error.
Leslie September 22nd, 2009
6:28 pm

#166

@Bob

“Mangyna.” Nice. Because, after all, it’s fun to humiliate men by insinuating that they have female anatomy.

Sexism is fun!
baraqiel September 22nd, 2009
7:39 pm

#167

I mean, I’d rather look like a snotty sixth grader than like an idiot. Regardless, I happen to love the English language and I hate to see it so callously abused.

As for: “I am familiar with those xyonline dudes. We in the Men’s Rights Movement have a name for them: Mangyna”

Lovely example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Textbook!
Bob September 22nd, 2009
8:23 pm

#168

@Leslie

A Mangyna is a man who detests his manhood and his own genitalia. In other words, he will gladly sacrifice them for the favor of women. He is NOT a man with a vagina. In his mind, that would give him god like status, something he feels women and only women are capable of.

@ baraqiel

Ahh, your love of the English Language. After all, the whole Germanic-Latin-Franco hybrid was designed by a bunch of Anglican monks so you would not “look like an idiot.” People with shaky arguments always love to flaunt their communication skills as evidence of superiority and in fact are able to fool a great many into believing that these skills actually make them right. You air the putrid narcissism of an outmoded scribe about you.
Geeza September 22nd, 2009
8:41 pm

#169

Let me get this straight. Arguing in favour of those who are wrongly accused of rape and against those who make false accusations makes us “rape apologists”, “rape justifiers” and “rape excusers”??? Only rabid feminists could come up with these moronic terms.

If you can’t be bothered to show concern for men falsely accused of rape then I could not give a shit about rape victims.

Alot of men like myself who were sypathetic to the causes of feminism are gradually switching off thanks to the constant demonising of men.

Another woman says she’s been raped? *Big fucking yawn*
baraqiel September 22nd, 2009
9:16 pm

#170

@Bob – And now we have a continuation of the ad hominem attacks! Beautiful, just a gorgeous example. Please, continue on your tour of techniques from the How Not to Construct an Argument handbook. I’m hoping that you’ll pull out an appeal to ignorance next, that’s one of my favorites and I know you’d exhibit it so well!

@Anon – No, no, no, I corrected your spelling. Grammar I didn’t even bother to touch.

The Y chromosome being a mutation of the X chromosome is not the same thing as men being a mutation of women. As for your attempt to suggest that males are more highly evolved than females, evolution works on a species basis. Men and women are not in fact different species. One could certainly argue that species that employ sexual reproduction are in some sense more highly evolved than species that reproduce in some other manner, although the utility of such arguments is doubtful to say the least.

“I’ve never met a women who didn’t snuggle up in the warm blanket of female privledge all the while expecting men to carry on as uncomplaining beasts of burden as we always have.”

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/

Do you understand how unoriginal your arguments are? They are so unoriginal that feminists created a blog full of responses to them already.

“What you see as the patriachy by the way, is class elitism.”

Look up “intersectionality”. And yes, feminism does fight classism, and no, not just through support for single mothers — and what exactly about single mothers suggests that they behave badly? Feminism has a long history of supporting fair labor practices, equal access to health care, equal access to education — all issues of classism.

“No girls ever asked me out, bought me dinner, allowed me to raise my children, or fought in the front lines of a war to protect my freedoms.”

Don’t pretend such women don’t exist. My boyfriend and I take turns paying for dinner and I asked him out in the first place — and I know a lot of other women like me. Shockingly, the couples I know where both parents are equal partners in parenting are couples where the woman is a feminist. The same is true for buying dinner for men. Maybe if you want a relationship with more parity, you should try dating some feminists.

I don’t agree with the draft, so I don’t support that for anyone, but I absolutely believe that women should be fighting on the front lines. In fact, women are de facto fighting on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan right now — what’s stopping commanding officers from putting women officially in the line of combat is a set of regulations that have to be changed by Congress, and Congress has declined to do so during a war.
Leslie September 22nd, 2009
9:48 pm

#171

@Geeza

If you had bothered to read the entire thread, you would notice that, in fact, Anon had offered an excuse for rape, which is that men, so beaten down and emasculated by feminist ideology, “erupt” in a fever of masculine energy and rape women. He actually mentions the same idea in another comment, but I don’t have time to walk you through them. Sounds like an excuse to me.

I’m not “in favor” of someone who falsely accuses another of rape. Where are you getting this? I know for a fact that baraqiel has stated how reprehensible it is to accuse someone of a crime they didn’t commit at least twice, possibly more. False accusations suck for ANY crime. But let’s not pretend that they are the norm, or in any way as common as rape victims NOT coming forward because they fear they won’t be believed. (Hmm, maybe they’re concerned the first person they tell will say, “Another woman saying she’s been raped? Big fucking yawn.”)
Nick September 22nd, 2009
11:13 pm

#172

You can’t blame women for not wanting to lose these “rights,” such as the rape shield law. It benefits them greatly when they have had to much to drink, or are ashamed they slept with the wrong guy or guys. Any fair minded person can see what a crock all these laws women have gotten passed are, (mostly because of their white knights in congress), but they do vote and put pressure on the scum inhabiting Washington. So until men start voting like women do, which of course is that women tend to vote for their own self-interest, we will keep getting these terrible laws.
baraqiel September 22nd, 2009
11:19 pm

#173

Nick, rape shield laws prevent defense attorneys from using a woman’s sexual history in a rape trial. Why do you think that a woman’s sexual history should be admissible evidence in a rape trial?
Nick September 23rd, 2009
12:00 am

#174

Baraqiel, because of the rape shield law why don’t you think if a woman has made false accusations in the past that this shouldn’t be admissible evidence in a rape trial? This should be good.
baraqiel September 23rd, 2009
12:45 am

#175

That would be her criminal history, not her sexual history. I don’t know of any rape shield laws that prohibit evidence of a woman’s previous criminal convictions of false accusation.

So, again: Why do you think that a woman’s sexual history should be admissible evidence in a rape trial?
Nick September 23rd, 2009
1:57 am

#176

Well, if a woman was sexually active within, let’s say a week of her cliam to have been raped it might be nice to know that information. It might speak to her mental state, don’t you think? If I was raped I probably wouldn’t want to be sexually active for a very long time, but that’s just me. And I also don’t like how the rape shield law let’s the accused get identified but not the accuser. Seems kind unfair.

And you are right, the stories I have read where women made false rape claims, and then made them again, and again, and again, the reason that evidence wasn’t used was because they were never taken to trial for the false claims so they couldn’t admit the evidence. You are right. Hopefully someday DA’s actually will go after women who make false claims as hard as they go after rapists, so that they can use that as evidence when she makes her next claim.
Helena September 23rd, 2009
6:13 am

#177

Dear Nick,

Please get raped and then tell me how you feel. I guess being sullied by a violent criminal should make me ashamed to be intimate with my husband or boyfriend? I guess that because I was violated, I should hate my own body, or the idea of feeling pleasure from it ever again? What do a woman’s intimate habits surrounding the time of a rape have to do with whether or not it happened? Would you ask someone whose home had been burglarized whether or not they allowed guests during the time after the robbery to determine the credibility of their claim?

I don’t see what a woman’s social calendar has to do with such allegations. Oh, I forgot! If you can prove a woman consents to and enjoys intimacy, you can prove she’s a shameful whore who deserved and wanted forced sex. I’m sorry, this estrogen-addled brain of mine sometimes gets a little turned around!
Helena September 23rd, 2009
6:42 am

#178

In reading even more of these comments (a thing I wish I hadn’t done), I can’t help notice that the “Men’s Rights” advocates are the ones slinging personal insults and emotionally-charged arguments. You have name-called and challenged these women to insult you back, to lose their tempers, to act like the irrational beings you want to pretend we are. But their responses (mine being one of the few exceptions!) are all well-considered, even-tempered, and on point. It’s comforting to know that while you imbeciles can get a rise out of me, these ladies (and gentlemen, there’s gotta be at least one–tell me I just missed it?) are representing. I feel like we are in good hands.
baraqiel September 23rd, 2009
9:04 am

#179

“It might speak to her mental state, don’t you think?”

Well, I don’t know, because I’m not a psychologist. All I know is that I’ve observed different people dealing very differently with trauma. Are you a psychologist, Nick? Do you have some knowledge suggesting that every single woman — again, we’re talking about 3 billion people here — deals with trauma in exactly the same way? Because if not, I don’t think you have any grounds to claim that a woman’s sexual activity surrounding her rape has any bearing on the veracity of her claim.

Revealing names to the press is a topic that was discussed up thread. There are certainly arguments for changing the general legal practice of not revealing the names of criminal accusers to the press. But that is an argument about our legal system in general, not one about how our legal system deals with rape.
Anon September 23rd, 2009
3:43 pm

#180

“”If you had bothered to read the entire thread, you would notice that, in fact, Anon had offered an excuse for rape, which is that men, so beaten down and emasculated by feminist ideology, “erupt” in a fever of masculine energy and rape women. He actually mentions the same idea in another comment, but I don’t have time to walk you through them. Sounds like an excuse to me.”"

I thought I dealt with this accusation already. A reason something might happen is not an excuse, justification, or defense. Understanding why some men rape is not the same as condoning it. I also didn’t say that men beaten down and emasculated by feminism is what causes eruptions of rape, I said:

“Modern society, instead of redirecting those masculine energies through competition in school, seek to suppress them. Suppressing masculinity leads to an eruption of it, maybe even sometimes to rape.”

Modern society = not feminism
Sometimes rape = not rape

Again; A reason something might happen is not an excuse, justification, or defense.

Suppressing something leads to a release of it. Some people release these energies through sports or music, but not all people are taught healthy outlets for release. Thats all I’m saying. If someone has not learned a healthy outlet to release their pent up energies, that energy will either eat them from the inside out, or they will release it through fighting, vandalism, anti-social behavior, and yes sometimes rape. I would think that simply stating psychologically unhealthy men are more prone to rape than psychologically healthy men is not that controversial. What might be controversial to you is that I believe many psychologically unhealthy men today are that way because our society looks down on masculinity. How are men going to understand that their urges (not just sexual) are natural, and there are ways to release the pressures of them, if we shame and denigrate men for having them in the first place. If we cannot even have a dialouge about male sexuality without it being ridiculed, why would men listen to anything people have to say about a healthy sex life. Repeat, a reason is not an excuse, justification, or defense. If you don’t think suppressing ones core being (masculinity) leads to huge psychological issues, if you don’t think suppressing through shame someones natural sex drive is unhealthy for their psyche, go talk to gay men who grew up before the 80’s, hell who grow up today in many places. I believe suicide if prevalent in the youth gay community for many years. And when I mentioned it in another post, I was simply clarifying it from the distortions that continue to be made about it. I suspect I will have to clarify this a third time as well.

“@ Anon

Chill out she is baiting you!”

If it was a trap, I’ll stick my foot in it again. Speaking of which;

“I mean, I’d rather look like a snotty sixth grader than like an idiot. Regardless, I happen to love the English language and I hate to see it so callously abused.”

If poor spelling makes me look like an idiot to you, you have a pretty narrow view on intelligence. I guess Spell Checker is smarter than you are, as I’m pretty sure that software program would beat you in a spelling bee.

“@Anon – No, no, no, I corrected your spelling. Grammar I didn’t even bother to touch.”

You never told me what the opposite of a shovel is?
Seriously smart ass, I’ll give you props if you get it right.

“The Y chromosome being a mutation of the X chromosome is not the same thing as men being a mutation of women. As for your attempt to suggest that males are more highly evolved than females, evolution works on a species basis. Men and women are not in fact different species. One could certainly argue that species that employ sexual reproduction are in some sense more highly evolved than species that reproduce in some other manner, although the utility of such arguments is doubtful to say the least.”

Your rebuttle is correct, good thing I was joking (I’d say being faseeshus, but since I can’t spell it, you probably would use it as an oppurtunity to take a swipe at me…wait a second…). Sorry I didn’t use my sarcasm font, I forget which key it is. If we can’t be smart asses sometimes, whats the point of debating other than to arrive at higher truths. Are you sure you don’t have Aspergers also. I smell a geek.

“Nick, rape shield laws prevent defense attorneys from using a woman’s sexual history in a rape trial. Why do you think that a woman’s sexual history should be admissible evidence in a rape trial?”

I’d say as evidence of someone’s character. Thats why attornys would like to use it. Nevermind, I forgot there is nothing wrong with promiscuity, no matter what the vast majority of people think. Oh, and yeah, a womens character should never be judged. Thats just sexist! Hell, we should be proud when one of our daughters sleeps with the whole football team, who needs commited monogomous relationships built on emotional intimacy anyways? Keep giving the Alpha males (those leaders of the patriarchy) what they want, easy access to your daughters and grand-daughters. That will show em’!!

“In reading even more of these comments (a thing I wish I hadn’t done), I can’t help notice that the “Men’s Rights” advocates are the ones slinging personal insults and emotionally-charged arguments. You have name-called and challenged these women to insult you back, to lose their tempers, to act like the irrational beings you want to pretend we are. But their responses (mine being one of the few exceptions!) are all well-considered, even-tempered, and on point. It’s comforting to know that while you imbeciles can get a rise out of me, these ladies (and gentlemen, there’s gotta be at least one–tell me I just missed it?) are representing. I feel like we are in good hands.”

I concede to the above in spirit; men aren’t as good at subtly pushing womens buttons as vice versa, but I do not concede the larger argument at hand. Many broader points I made were ignored, and rather idividual statements of mine were needlessly dissected. It has been a good back and forth however. I think you’d be a close minded fool if you hadn’t learned something from both sides. We are both honing the debate for another time however, and the audience will be a lot larger then just blog readers and internet junkies one day. I hear the sound of swords sharpening on both sides. I do so love competition. I hope you do also. I’d hate for Feminsit not to put up a good fight. Love thy enemy (why not, it confuses the hell out of them). Peace. Or is that piece, or peece, or peese, or peise, god I hate our language. Why can’t we just spell it like it sounds.
Nick September 23rd, 2009
4:32 pm

#181

Dear Helena, I was falsely accused of rape and it did make me feel violated. Kind of made me feel like I never wanted to be intimate with a woman ever again. So yeah, if a woman is being highly sexual active with various men after claiming to have been raped I would have to question her mental state. Infact, had I gone to jail for the false rape claim, and then probably been raped against my will, as many men in prision are who faced the same charge as me, well, I doubt I would ever view sex the same way again.

And just off the topic, we all know how hard feminists are working to prevent rape in prisions LMAO. Of course they deserve it don’t they? What a joke you all are.

Baraqiel, so I guess you have no problem playing amature pyschologist. So tell me, do you think it’s normal for a woman to be highly sexually active after claiming to have been raped, or is this just a case of how someone might deal with the trauma of having been violated? Well, it all sounds a little fishy to me, but then of course I’m not a feminist.

And if my identity had been revealed, when I was falsely accused of rape, and my false accusers had not, I wouldn’t have reallly cared about what some feminists, idiotic semantic argument, about whether “this practice is about our legal system in general, not how our legal system deals with rape.”
baraqiel September 23rd, 2009
4:44 pm

#182

“So tell me, do you think it’s normal for a woman to be highly sexually active after claiming to have been raped, or is this just a case of how someone might deal with the trauma of having been violated?”

I make no claims of what is normal or abnormal. I just recognize that different people deal with trauma differently. But, you know, if you don’t believe me: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=different+people+respond+differently+to+trauma
Nick September 23rd, 2009
4:50 pm

#183

Anon, that part about Alpha males having easy access to women was pure gold. As a beta, I have no real power, and find it quite funny how these women tend to forgive guys like Bill Clinton and Teddy Kennedy so easily, even holding them in high esteem, yet they view men as myself as a threat. Like you said, it’s the QB or the cool lead singer in the local band that is going to take advantage of your daughters, not me.
Anon September 23rd, 2009
5:06 pm

#184

I really need new friends, and probably a heavier work load.

“It is little consolation to a woman who is raped that the men in her life will jump to defend her honor.”

Sooorrry. I would smash their face to a bloody pulp and call the police afterwards for my own personal enjoyment then.

I’d like to tell you about how I lost my virginity while blacked out, while all my peer group watched, as one of the biggest whores at my highschool had sex with me at the bottom of a hill at one of the local gathering spots. Ring side seats for everyone. I’d say about 70 to 100 people were there, all grades, both sexes, a lot of the cool kids. No one came to my honor. In fact immediately afterwards, with everyone still watching, my brother beat the shit out of me for it. Apparently I cried quite a bit. Blubbered really from what I understand. Its probably a very good thing I hardly remember any of it. In fact, I woke up the next day in a good mood. I thought I hooked up because of the hicky on my neck. Bitch gave me a hicky the size of a golf ball. Sorta like a scarlett letter for the next week or two of that summer. You think my friends didn’t use that as an excuse to give me hell. You think I couldn’t tell how every girl I knew looked at me differently, even a big geek like me could pick up on those social cues. I’d worked so hard to fit in, mainly for my brother. The skinny kid with a little chin who talked funny yet somehow managed to get into the in-crowd (thats a whole nother story). I had just turned 15, going into my sophmore year. You think any girl would date me after that. That bitch even had the nerve to come up to me at my 10 year reunion like she did nothing wrong. She told me I look great. Thanks.

Don’t feel sorry for me, because I’m a badass now, just like I was before that shit went down. Having a severe speech impediment somehow made me a fighter. Figurtively and literally. And then having your dignity stripped from you like that…frees you. I’m not afraid of your shaming tactics. I have no shame. And Leslie, I would find your rapist, and beat them to a bloody pulp so that they never looked the same again, maybe a little for you, but more for me…I promise you that. Take it for what its worth. And if I have to prove my story, some of the more sordid parts I left out by the way, I will, but once my evidence is presented, I would expect an apology from every feminist on this board for ever thinking that they lay claim to victimhood any more than men. Test me. By the way, my wife is hot and makes more money then me which enables me to pursue art. She hates men. Had an overbearing father. Just like my man-hating mom. Life huh?! Shits and giggles. You never know how things are going to play out.
Leslie September 23rd, 2009
5:41 pm

#185

@Nick

“And just off the topic, we all know how hard feminists are working to prevent rape in prisions LMAO. Of course they deserve it don’t they? What a joke you all are.”

You’re not off-topic at all. Let me say it again: rape is NEVER deserved. Not men, not women, not transgender persons, not prison inmates–NOBODY deserves to be raped. If you honestly think feminists don’t care about prison rape, you need to brush up on some of feminism’s finer points. In fact, nine of the ten members on the board of directors for Stop Prison Rape Inc. are WOMEN. Where are all of the Men’s Rights advocates? They’re probably making prison rape jokes and thinking that inmates deserve what they get.

All rapists (incarcerated or not) use rape to control their victims, and the reason they get away with it is that our culture encourages victims to remain silent about it. Feminists are, for the most part, the only ones standing up for rape victims–ALL rape victims. So please don’t tell me that because I’m a feminist, I must shudder at the thought of the atrocities being committed in prisons, or that I don’t care enough. Rape happens because our culture encourages it, and prison rape is an example of that.
Leslie September 23rd, 2009
5:43 pm

#186

Correction:

“I must NOT shudder”

(Note to self: read aloud before submitting.)
Martin September 23rd, 2009
11:18 pm

#187

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what’s wrong with America (I’m referring to the people who frequent this website, not the awful incident that happened at Hofstra). Behavior like this is also what enables situations like the Hofstra incident to spiral out of control. Snap judgments, not listening to the other side, only using your mouth instead of using your ears. Come on people. I think we can all agree that what happened is incredibly damaging for everyone involved. We can also agree that victims of rapists and rape accusers suffer probably permanent damage. We NEED to find a way to cut down rapes in America – this is difficult to do in practice, but where there’s a will there’s a way. However, we also need to have stronger incentives not to falsely accuse people (and still enable real rape victims to easily step forward).
Silenced is Foo September 24th, 2009
4:55 pm

#188

Props to Martin. The whole “Slut” threadjack just makes me sad.
David September 26th, 2009
3:53 am

#189

These guys should be put against a wall and whipped util their screams are heard in Anchorage. NO HIGH RANKING MALE has sex with a girl while other men watch. These boys made a bad choice. Whether it’s called rape or not, shouldn’t be part of the conversation now that the charges have been dropped. We need to talk about the quality of our young men. Are they WORTH our protection? NO, not these boys. There must be some punishment for such weak males other than the criminal system. Native American tribes would humiliate their weaker men until they proved themselves worthy of praise. This might help get these ridiculous boys under control. It’s a man’s job to control the more vile of our sex, NOT the job of young women.
Albert Gallo October 4th, 2009
2:26 am

#190

In order to better understand false rape allegations, one must understand the REAL reason women commit them. It is NOT because they feel shame, but because rape accusations have become an effective and socially acceptable way for women to exercise power and control over men — power and control that they would otherwise lack. Since they can’t use their brains or their brawn to push men around, they use the law. The majority of women are jealous and envious of men, and pointing an accusing finger at them, makes them feel empowered.

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The Divided Fifty States. « I’m Just Not Impressed

[...] discussion of the false rape allegations at Hofstra taking place at The Sexist today is a glaring example of this divide. And like so many such discussions, it makes me want to throw up a little because the differences [...]
Linked From: September 18th, 2009
10:12 pm
End of the Week Link Round-Up | Change Happens: The SAFER Blog

[...] at Feministing and Amanda at The Sexist react to the recanting of a rape accusation at Hofstra [...]
Linked From: September 19th, 2009
7:33 pm
Rape and Recant at Hofstra « Beyond Cosmo

[...] If I were you, I’d want to read the the whole thing here. [...]
Linked From: September 21st, 2009
3:37 am
Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Link Farm and Open Thread, Brain Scanning Dead Fish Edition

[...] Both rape and false accusations of rape result from rape culture. (Via.) [...]
Linked From: September 21st, 2009
12:54 pm
Name That Consent Porn! - The Sexist - Washington City Paper

[...] a teenage girl apparently consented to drunken videotaped group sex with four men in her dorm, then instantly regret it. Scenarios where four men have sex with one woman carry obvious challenges for establishing [...]
Linked From: September 21st, 2009
6:46 pm
Your Monday Random-Ass Roundup: Nuts about ACORN « PostBourgie

[...] dropped last week against five men accused of raping a Hofstra University freshman, Amanda Hess parses some of the many problems of living in a rape culture. That includes false rape accusations. [...]
Linked From: September 22nd, 2009
11:48 am
Victims Vs. Sluts: Hofstra’s False Rape and the Media - The Sexist - Washington City Paper

[...] week’s false rape accusation at Hofstra University has inspired a media storm unparalleled by most actual rape cases. The feeding frenzy has produced [...]
Linked From: September 24th, 2009
2:04 pm
links for 2009-09-24 « Embololalia

[...] False Rape Accusations and Rape Culture – The Sexist – Washington City Paper Both rape and rape accusations are products of the roles assigned by rape culture. In the traditional seduction scenario, a woman is expected to not desire to have sex, and to only submit after the man has successfully coerced her into submission. When the preferred model for consensual sex looks a hell of a lot like rape, an array of fucked-up scenarios are inevitable: the woman never wanted to fuck the guy, refuses to submit, and is raped; the woman submits to the man’s coercion in order to avoid other negative consequences (like being raped); the woman had desired the sex all along, but must defend her femininity by saying that she had been coerced into sex. Thankfully, a good deal of modern men and women reject these antiquated ideas, but they’re far from being banished from the sexual landscape. Especially when that landscape involves four men, one woman, and freshman year of college. (tags: sexualviolence rapeapology sex gender) [...]
Linked From: September 25th, 2009
4:46 pm
Last Week’s Most Popular Blog Posts - The Sexist - Washington City Paper

[...] bad undergraduate sex columns, false accusations, and the work of Tucker Max. A retrospective: 1. False Rape Accusations and Rape Culture, in which people who care about rape and people who care about false rape claims should fight on [...]
Linked From: September 28th, 2009
12:17 pm
Apparently We Need to Discuss False Reporting Again | Change Happens: The SAFER Blog

[...] of the female Hofstra student? Why did I instead link to blogs where folks like Amanda were discussing how one reason for false rape claims [and not a justification, might I add] might be that women are taught to be ashamed of their sexual [...]
Linked From: October 15th, 2009
2:45 pm
Why do we find ourselves questioning if rape accusations are true – the aftermath caused by those making false charges « The Anti

[...] http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/09/17/false-rape-accusations-and-rape-culture/ [...]
Linked From: November 11th, 2009
10:27 pm
Rape Culture « File 13

[...] How do they do this? Enter the number one reason feminists believe women falsely accuse men of rape, slut shaming. That’s right, if I made stuff like this up I’d be making millions in book sales to feminist [...]

False Rape Accusations and Rape Culture

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