"The actual advice—talk to girls—is so obvious that only a man with the lowest self-esteem could regard it as a revelation."

I suppose *that* is a misconception. Most men don't seem to see this as "so obvious". In general, it seems to me, men do need the advice in a lot more broken down pieces than women. They actually need a "manual" until they develop some kind of intuition about social interactions. I think it would be interesting to debate why that is the case and why social skills aren't seen as teachable and aren't taught to everyone, say, in school, instead of leaving this to a slightly shady market, but I'd still say this level of advice is what many men will need - and they will also appreciate the impression of authority communicated by the instructor's language. The hierarchical setup apparent in the language that you criticize will likely positively affect many guys willingness to actually try to change, and say, actually talk to women.

There's a lot of problems with "the community", but there's also positive aspects - particularly if one looks at it from a meta perspective.

http://www.datinggroundwork.com/communityusefulness

"“Nice.” Nice is the classic marker of a girl who’s not interested, and when administered from a Pick-Up Artist master to a Pick-Up Artist devotee, it’s a very effective neg."

Isn't it interesting how feminist assertions about "nice guys(tm)" always include references to their lack of ability to assert themselves sexually and instead tried to come in "under the rader and create an emotional bond" without explicitly declaring their sexual interest? So feminists are saying the same thing as this guy, in pretty much the same words. Is that equally bad?

Come to think of it, I could skip the book and just start a dating site. It can be called "Asynchronous XML Or Better" and only people whose Javascript degrades gracefully will be allowed to use it.

And I love how you all claim to want intelligent women, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. My days of dating are not that far gone, and when someone like you approached me I can tell you, they were gone faster than Speedy Gonzales the second it became apparent I was able to express my thoughts in complete, coherent sentences. Truly smart women can see through your bullshit games and that's the LAST thing you want to deal with.

You love to dissect men's attitudes and how they need to change, but do little to put women's attitudes under the same microscope:

"If you’re a hot jerk, you’re a badass; if you’re an average-looking jerk, you’re a tool. It’s not fair, but such is life."

You rail against men who follow the Pickup Artist route without realizing that it's a response to the bullshit that you spew above. You better get used to it, because this PUA bullshit is here to stay, and men will keep going for younger & "hotter" women. It's not fair, but such is life.

That's like saying the car dealer scammed a guy by selling him a car that doesn't run... and the diver is endangering people by driving the car so fast. Which is it.... can't have it both ways.

Either the methods work and scam women out of sex... or the methods don't work and the "guru" is scamming the students.

The scene can certainly be sexist, the authors usually are, but the material at its core is universal to all people. There's just not much of a market for books that teach women how to pick up guys.

I know most of the ladies out there think that these books are a way for guys to be fraudulent and cheat their way into your pants, but the truth is in a public setting a guy has a very brief window to appear wonderful and get your attention. These books teach guys how to get your attention. What a guy does with that attention is up to his personal ethics.

I have nothing wrong with promiscuity, it was a hobby of mine as well when I was young and good looking. But don't try to couch it in this crap.

BE INTERESTING. Have hobbies, even if they're weird. There are girls in every social circle (except PUAs, ironically enough--that's a sausage-fest), and guess what: Some of them will like the same things you do. Just as long as you like SOMETHING besides coming up with ways to manipulate women into giving you pussy.

But of course that requires effort and doesn't guarantee the girl you wind up with will improve your social standing among your idiot friends.

Also: You don't have to be a doormat type who secretly seethes with resentment every time he compromises about something. That is not what women are talking about when they say "nice." Real nice guys--not the Nice Guys that PUAs claim they once were--just have a basic kind of human decency toward other people.

Until, a fw months down the road, some guy surfaces, usually a jerk, and they asy it "just happened!"

That's another one that sends guys like Sodini over the edge. They'll be kept at bay with some platitudes for six months, about how she has to get to know a guy, etc., then some guy she met at the club last week turns up her boyfriend.

It's not the rejection these guys can't handle, since they've been doing that since their teens. It's the sense of BETRAYAL at realizing that they've been lied to, actively, by women who really don't have their best interests at heart, but who would go ballistic when called the liars they obviously were.

If men behaved the way women supposedly wanted, pretty women would have NO social advantages, and have to do real work. Don't hold your breath.

Women want to be objectified, because it's profitable. Even when women are sexually harassed on the job, you dno't hear them complaining about what GOT them the job, and cost the job to other, les attrcative women, etc.

What they don't want is what they got: guys like questioning the "system" and how it works.

If we tell men like this just how hopeless everythign is, they stop spending money on hot women.

Another way this bs hurts men too is that it makes women like me want nothing to do with any of them.

Yes, I do understand that it is wrong to stereotype all of any group however, I am so beyond sick of men scamming for ways to con women into sleeping with them that I've decided investing in a really good sex toy is way smarter than letting some lame guy even attempt to manipulate me.

I'd really rather not even bother with men anymore because it just seems like if there are any truly good ones out there, they're so few and far between as to be mythical.

This is about the cat-and-mouse came that people play. Men don't want to be submissive but deep down have those qualities. Women don't want to be dominant, but deep down have those qualities. Yet they pretend they don't have these qualities and play cat-and-mouse and other one-ups-manship on each other.

Make it plain, leave the coyness and innuendo out the door, then MAYBE...just MAYBE we won't need these relationship hacks pushing books.

Then what happens? He can't be exploited for money,m favors, free dates, he can't be strung along with false hope, and the women who exploit him with sexuality sudenly find their meal-ticket isn't being punched.

Women want it both ways: they want guys to remain hopeul, so they'll remain invested, yet don't want to actually KEEP all these implied promises.

Women DO want lousy men. They think they're putting one over on the world when they do it, by taming the badboy. When women are rude to decen tmen, they create free advertising for thee gurus. They just thought before that guys like Sodini had no one to turn to to teach them how the world really works.

He hates women? Well, maybe he doewsdoes, but hate doesn't usually come from nowhere. Maybe women had more to do with this guy than they realized.

That "Alpha" is just a douche with no taste or class.

“When I was in seventh grade, I was really into Magic: The Gathering.”

{What if the girl he was talking to was a Level 7 Elf, LOL!}

“Yeah, I love movies! I even went to the midnight opening of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Sat in the front row.”

{Once again, there are more women into Sci-Fi than you think.}

"The difference between an alpha and a weirdo is that the alpha knows how to refuse to compromise on goat cheese and make her laugh about it at the same time."

{So what does the weirdo do? Make a scene or scrape the goat cheese off his slice?}

Amanda, the sentiments of your article are good, although there's some pretty stereotypical Anti-Mars/Anti-Venus things to take from this. Also, this is the heterosexual angle. What about the GLBT community?

You don't like goat cheese on your pizza at Two Amys? While a beta would keep quiet and acquiese in order to appease his date, an alpha would refuse to order it. The difference between an alpha and a weirdo is that the alpha knows how to refuse to compromise on goat cheese and make her laugh about it at the same time.

guys, that is a fucking myth. An urban legend. Be nice to us.