Observe and Report’s Date Rape Apologism
[youtube:v=2DHF__5EvxA]
Observe and Report, Seth Rogen's new film, is a dark rom-com about a mall security guard in love with a beautiful, alcoholic flashing victim Brandi (played by Anna Faris). Rogen's character unsuspectingly date-rapes Brandi after she downs several shots, pops some pills, vomits all over herself, and passes out. But it's okay, because she actually wanted it.
The clip from the scene is at the 2:40 mark. Rogen's take on date rape:
SETH ROGEN: when we're having sex and she's unconscious like you can literally feel the audience thinking, like, how the fuck are they going to make this okay? Like, what can possibly be said or done that I'm not going to walk out of the movie theater in the next thirty seconds? . . . And then she says, like, the one thing that makes it all okay:
BRANDI: "Why are you stopping, motherfucker?"
See, she just prefers to fuck while sleeping! And so, an entire theater's ambivalence toward date rape is miraculously resolved in a good, long, laugh, and the date rapist who is meant to be protecting Brandi from the penis flasher remains the hero.
If Observe and Report were really in the business of edgy, "dangerous," black comedy, Brandi would leave Rogen for the arms of an even more heinous sexual abuser, like a gang rapist, then leave him for a child molesting middle-school teacher, before finally settling down with a serial prostitute killer. If only somebody in Hollywood had the balls to do it.
2:27 pm
Rogen: "when we’re having sex and she’s unconscious..."
You're not "having sex" when one of you is UNCONSCIOUS you disgusting piece of shit! Now I even regret just having rented Knocked Up. I'll never see anything associated with this scumbag again. He Fatty Arbuckled himself here as far as I'm concerned.
2:43 pm
Reading Anna Faris' interviews about the scene is perhaps sadder. There's this big initiative to gloss over the complications by talking up how "edgy" it is---like, if you can laugh at this scene, then you're REALLY with it.
3:46 pm
UGGH! This is the worst news ever. Seth Rogen is much more like his character in Freaks and Geeks than in Knocked Up? God damnit. Worst news ever.
5:10 pm
Alright you fuckin radical feminists, just shut the fuck up, its hilarious and if you dont understand the joke because youre so wraped up in political correctess then dont watch it but keep it to yourself
6:11 pm
Evan- Go get raped, then you can speak objectively about it.
@Amanda - "Reading Anna Faris’ interviews about the scene is perhaps sadder."
Stockholm Syndrome. Poor sod.
6:47 pm
Evan,
I will pass on a story from a woman I know who went and saw this movie.
"I was raped a few years ago. Then I went and paid $10 and sat in a theater and had to watch a rape on a huge fuckin screen. I had to struggle to hide my shaking, and keep from retching in the theater, because of the flashbacks and sheer pain and terror of seeing something like this when my guard was down."
What about that story seems okay to you? If you can call me a radical feminist and tell me to shut the fuck up, then I can call out a movie for it's willingness to screw over a large portion of the world's population. I can rant and rave about the disgusting willing stupidity or a film maker who would put someone like my friend into that kind of situation.
If you have a valid criticism of someone's argument, then go ahead. If all you're here to do is put people down and tell them that what they feel isn't valid, then you're the one who needs to shut the fuck up. Other people have valid ideas and experiences too.
11:56 pm
Seeing as both characters consent, how is it rape? It'd be one thing if her drunkenness altered her decision, but as I understand it, it doesn't. The scene making you uncomfortable when both characters aren't is the source of the "black comedy" of this scene; I don't particularly find it funny, but I recognize what it was attempting to do. Seeing as how the scene isn't actively advocating a broader position, and the movie doesn't present Rogen's character as a positive role model, I don't understand how this movie is apologia for date rape any more than Eight Heads In A Duffel Bag is apologia for murder.
1:10 am
@9 Um, no, first consent, then sex, otherwise, you're a rapist. Like if you're totally unconcsious and some hot dude fucks you, and you're like "woah, I was just raped!" but then ten years later you're like "Hey, I realize now I like it when people fuck me while I'm unconscious, especially hot dudes, and if I could choose again, I'd ask him to do me while I slept!"
That makes it totally not rape, right?
No, because first consent, THEN sex. It's not rocket science.
2:04 am
OH YOU DARN RADICAL FEMINISTS ALWAYS TELLING ME THAT RAPE IS BAD WHY DON'T YOU ENJOY MY HILARIOUS JOKES ABOUT THE DATE RAPING ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.
One thing I enjoy: people who argue that people shouldn't get upset about the trivialization of rape, who then lose their entire fucking minds when someone criticizes a movie. Rape? Get over it. Someone giving a bad review to a Seth Rogen vehicle? THIS ATROCITY CANNOT STAND.
2:29 am
Betty: The thing that makes your example nonsensical is the ten-year gap you added in for reasons I cannot fathom. If a hot dude just tears your shirt open and starts going at it and -- this is important -- at no point are you like "whoah, I was just raped!", instead thinking "wow, this is hot as hell!" then you're in a situation that is analogous to the one in the movie and one in which you are not being raped. Even though the same guy doing the exact same sequence of physical actions would be committing rape if you were thinking "wow, this is gross, I wish he'd get off me", because the crime of rape hinges on the mental state of the victim. If, when the woman regains consciousness, she know about and does not mentally object in any way to what happened, then rape cannot have occurred.
It is, of course, skeevy as hell, and it's not a situation that would very often occur in reality. But the movie is not, from what I am seeing, advocating any position that "unconscious women will consent later so go nuts", it's not portraying either involved character as typical or emulatable. It is presenting two gross and fucked-up people doing a gross and fucked-up thing, and attempting to use the discomfort caused by the viewer's concern that this is date rape, contrasted with the revelation that the character in question actually cares far less than the viewer does, to create dark humor. I don't think it succeeds -- it sounds like something a sixteen-year-old would write when he just figured out he can write things that shock people -- but it is not apologism for date rape.
2:39 am
I mean, for crying out loud, whatever humor exists in the scene REQUIRES the viewer to think of what he's doing as rape, and for them to be disgusted by it. The joke only works on people who know what date rape is and know how bad it is; if the movie's creators believed or wanted us to believe that Rogan's character's actions were laudable or normal, there'd be no point to the scene!
8:03 am
I get your argument, but I'm still going to disagree with it. Because:
1. The joke is apparently "You thought he was raping her, but he's not really!" which is a pretty horrific "joke" to be making.
2. It falls flat anyway, because he is actually raping her. She's unconcious at the start of the scene and he has no way of knowing that she will be fine with the sex when she wakes up. The consent she gives when she does is unbelievably dubious considering that she's wasted enough to be passed out in her own vomit. I haven't seen the movie, but the fact that she supposedly continues to be fine with it doesn't mitigate the rape- it just means that she's fucked up enough to rationalize it.
3. You could maybe dismiss the above two points with your shock comedy "gross and fucked-up people doing a gross and fucked-up thing" point, except for the fact that the movie does muddy the already confused date rape waters for the kind of people who are already confused. Your argument is proof of that, actually; "Even though the same guy doing the exact same sequence of physical actions would be committing rape if you were thinking “wow, this is gross, I wish he’d get off me”, because the crime of rape hinges on the mental state of the victim. If, when the woman regains consciousness, she know about and does not mentally object in any way to what happened, then rape cannot have occurred." and so is Rogan's "And then she says, like, the one thing that makes it all okay".
Sex with an intoxicated, unconcious person is rape, period. There isn't anything that can "make that okay", and your fictional girl can't be thinking anything about the sex act in progress because SHE IS UNCONCIOUS. It doesn't matter if that girl has flirted with you, made out with you, or seemed like she would have had sex with you anyway- if she didn't verbally consent, before the level of staggering vomit, DON'T HAVE SEX WITH HER.
Jesus.
11:03 am
I'm not saying "hey it's cool to have sex with unconscious people who have thrown up all over themselves whee for knockout sex". I'm saying the acts portrayed in the movie are not rape.
Think of it like this. It's not actually illegal to drive through a stoplight without looking at whether it's red or green (like maybe you are fiddling with your radio presets, I dunno) if it turns out the stoplight was green. That doesn't mean you should do that, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, that doesn't mean "but I wasn't looking at the light, Officer" is a valid argument in your defense if you run a red light.
Rape hinges on victim's state of mind, and if the victim is happy with what occurred, rape didn't occur. Period. End of story.
12:21 pm
No consent=rape. One cannot consent if one is drunk. Period. End of story.
12:42 pm
You are right, a drunk or unconscious person cannot form consent. But there's a niggling little difference in two forms of the phrase "no consent" -- it either means, the victim opposed the action, or the perpetrator did not bother to find out if the victim consented or not. An unconscious person is unconsenting by the second definition, not the first. This is why, for particular people who are into sex while asleep or similarly incapacitated (and we're not here to judge them, it takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup), they can establish with their partner ahead of time that they consent to specific sex acts performed on them while unconscious, and their partner can then do these things without committing rape -- the act of falling asleep means that consent cannot be formed at that time, but not that the person automatically opposes any sex acts performed on them during that time. See the difference?
Of course, the odds are really, really good that an unconscious person would oppose sex acts performed on them if they were awake, which is why you don't have sex with unconscious people. Technically speaking, sex with an unconscious or drugged person is not automatically rape, it's conduct that has like a 99% chance of being rape. But there is no good served by saying that people who are fine with something that happened are really raped and SHOULD feel traumatized and violated.
There's also no good in missing the forest for the trees and ignoring that this kind of joke is used all the time in regards to violent or property crimes, to varying degrees of success. Remember that Futurama "Anthology of Interest" episode, where Leela's segment revolves around her murdering off most of the rest of the cast, and the "stinger" joke at the end is literally "You thought Leela was murdering Fry, but she was really having sex with him"? Because that show was hilarious, not horrific, and while this joke doesn't seem to be hilarious, it's disingenuous to call it what it's not.
1:15 pm
Actually, sex with an unconscious person is automatically rape and could automatically be tried as such if the person so chose. It doesn't matter if the person "wanted it", "liked you" or whatever. If any person were to end up in a court (whether they were taken to court right away or a long time later), the defendant would have to prove that the sex was consensual, and moreso, that they received an active consent from the partner prior to the sex. (Here is just one website on U.S. policy: http://www.stopvaw.org/a6200a22-49cf-4680-a01b-e862d23ccfb6.html). I think what you are confusing is the difference between legalities and the probability of the crime actually being reported. In this case, did a rape occur? Yes. If the woman is so fucked up she actually didn't care that the rape occurred or somehow justified it, is she going to call the police? Highly unlikely. In that case, a rape still occurred, but other than the guy being a douchebag, he's probably not going to face any other consequences of it.
Even with married couples or long-term partners, there still has to be some form of consent. And I know that people get messed up beyond recognition all the time and have sloppy sex. It happens. And particularly in long-term relationships, no one thinks twice about it. Some couples like getting sloppy and going at it. Best thing to do in such cases is to have some sort of prior discussion when you're coherent if this is the kind of activity you enjoy--Hey honey, no matter how wasted I get, let's get busy. Otherwise, best to let her (or him) sleep it off.
1:21 pm
No, we’re not here to judge people who actually prefer to have sex initiated while they're asleep (or, in this case, when they're passed out and covered in vomit from drugs and alcohol). But that doesn't change the fact that unless consent is established before dozing off---that means sex partner establishes, sober and awake, that they really, truly want you to fuck them at the exact moment that they can't even physically ask you to stop---then it is rape.
What you're saying, Huitzil, is that consent is determined AFTER the act of rape. In this case, even her belated, passed-out consent---her closed-eyed mumble that doesn't even make clear that she's actually fucking THERE---doesn't pass the test.
But even if a man were to rape a woman and she later---awake and sober---told him it was okay, that she wanted it, or that she deserved it---doesn't mean what he did wasn't rape. How many women don't report their date-rapes? How many women return to their abusers? It's because of the shit that happens after the fact---what you call "consent." One of the most dangerous side-effects of being fucked without your consent can be that emotional abuse that comes afterwards---when the rapist sweet-talks, or lies, or pressures, or bullies you into believing the sex was consensual, after-the-fact.
Consent comes before you have sex, or it's rape. The idea couldn't be fucking simpler.
1:42 pm
"Seeing as both characters consent, how is it rape?"
Seeing as one character is UNCONSCIOUS, how to you figure they both consent? You need to retake elementary addition.
1:43 pm
...the movie’s creators believed or wanted us to believe that Rogan’s character’s actions were laudable or normal, there’d be no point to the scene!
No, they just want viewers to think it's funny.
2:36 pm
"Actually, sex with an unconscious person is automatically rape and could automatically be tried as such if the person so chose."
If the person so chose, then that person considered herself raped, and thus the crime of rape occurred. If the person did not consider herself raped, she would not be filing charges, and rape would not have occurred. The character in the movie did not consider herself raped and such the crime of rape did not occur. You think I am saying "it's okay to have sex with passed-out people" even though I am specifically saying I am not. I am saying that your view of the crime creates some situations -- such as the one depicted -- where you define something as rape contrary to the victim's wishes and mental state, and this cannot lead to a good outcome.
"No, they just want viewers to think it’s funny."
It is very clear from the article quoted that Rogan is not saying "this girl is raped and it is funny because it is raped". He is saying that the viewer's squirming discomfort at watching the act, one Rogan knows that the viewer will find unsettling, contrasted with the actual character's total lack of concern, is what is supposed to make it funny.
3:01 pm
The character was drunk: consent was not established: rape.
Seth Rogans' character took her mumble to be consent. That is what is supposed to be funny. Haha- how funny, he thinks she likes it! He thinks she is sober enough to consent!
The tragedy of this is that many men DO think that in real life. That is why so many of us do NOT find it funny.
5:08 pm
Look: It's ridiculous that this argument is still going on.
Huitzil is clearly not advocating having sex with unconscious or drunk people, nor is he arguing that people should have the mentality that such an act is okay because it's not necessarily rape. Yes, there are perverse incentives in place that cause women to not bring cases that they consider rape to court, but this is not the situation that's being discussed. It's clear that no one is pressuring the character in the movie to sweep this under the rug, and it's clear that the movie itself isn't commending or even condoning the behavior of the male character in question, let alone setting it up as model behaviour.
The fact of the matter is that if the woman, even retroactively, decides of her own volition that she consents to the sex enough to not press charges, no case of rape has occurred. Likewise, if there's a fight between two adults and no one presses charges for assault and battery, this crime has also not occurred. This is all Huitzil is arguing.
Additionally, bringing up the hypothetical case of a woman being pressured into considering sex consensual after the fact (when she wouldn't have decided this otherwise) is about as relevant to this case as bringing up the hypothetical case of a man being charged for rape after a woman decides that sex is non-consensual after the fact and after having given explicit consent, which is to say, not at all.
5:20 pm
Huitzal- "Seeing as both characters consent, how is it rape?"
She did not consent.
Huitzal- "I’m saying the acts portrayed in the movie are not rape."
Yes, they are.
Seth Rogen's character rapes.
End of discussion.
We can start a new discussion: is it funny?
5:32 pm
The act of not pressing charges is, in the eyes of the law, consent. While consent while drunk is arguable, the fact that the character seemingly consents and then seems to follow through with this verdict, by not pressing charges, implies that the crime is not committed, by virtue of, by any viable legal definition, consent. The fact that it's not illegal doesn't mean it's right, but it does mean it's not rape, as defined by the law.
5:37 pm
Rape is about the victim's state of mind. It is one thing to say that rape occurred when the victim SAYS otherwise, because you could say you believe the victim is lying due to outside pressures. But if you know that a victim THINKS rape has not occurred, rape has not occurred. You do not know more than the victim. You do not get to tell a person who feels fine that they should feel violated. NOBODY has a veto on the victim's mental state. The victim is the absolute, final, unquestionable authority on whether or not she was raped. If she doesn't think it was rape, it wasn't rape, PERIOD. You don't get to go over her head, you don't get to file an appeal.
You're also misrepresenting the nature of the joke so as to make it seem more misogynistic. "He thought her mumbling was consent" isn't THE joke, it isn't even A joke. The act of date rape is not supposed to be funny and the scene RELIES on the viewer being disgusted by it. The internal conflict it creates when the VIEWER'S discomfort runs up against the CHARACTER's total lack of concern is the source of the humor. If you continue to say that the act itself of having sex with an unconscious woman is presented as being inherently funny, you just show that you don't care enough to understand the subject you are talking about before you start talking about it.
6:12 pm
A woman does not have to press charges for a rape to be considered as such even in the eyes of the law. Rapists can be prosecuted even without the, heh, "consent" of the victim.
Take the Rihanna / Chris Brown case. Rihanna is not pressing charges against Brown. She is choosing not to testify against him. That doesn't mean the courts won't convict him of assault.
6:16 pm
Assault. Assault is not rape. Assault is a tangible crime that exists outside of the mental states of perpetrator and victim. Rape hinges on the victim's state of mind, and if the victim does not believe it to have occurred, the court cannot decide otherwise.
6:29 pm
Wah! Wah! Wah! This is degrading to women Wah! Wah! What a bunch of fucking pussies! How is date rape even being brought into this? She wasn't being raped which we know because she wasn't unconscious if she's asking for more you fucking morons! It's not edgy for edgy's sake either, it's just a funny joke with a controversial set-up. This has nothing to do with date rape whatsoever you're all just a bunch of radical feminists mixed with upety faggots! If you don't like it don't watch it.
7:13 pm
OMG!! This Huitzil character is kidding, right?
You CANNOT LEGALLY CONSENT TO ANYTHING WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE!!! I don't care if this character stands up, does the Mambo and then writes a letter to the president saying it was OK because she is DRUNK while doing so--legally incapacitated!
To make it a joke, even one in poor taste, denigrates women and will make it easier for some clown to claim "but she woke up and smiled at me before she passed out again" as an excuse for raping someone. Frat boys the nation over are already practicing their lines and lining up the booze. :(
And Cole, respectfully, fuck you-hopefully when you are legally unable to say for sure whether or not you want to be fucked!
7:18 pm
My my, some folks really flip their lids when women suggest maybe acquaintance rape isn't as hilarious as they think it is.
7:39 pm
Hey. Hey. Wishing someone would be raped is generally considered Not A Good Thing.
And saying that "someone putting forth a fictional scenario where something that almost always turns out to be rape turns out not to be is bad because it makes actual rape easier to get away with" is utterly nonsensical and not based on anything in reality. Maybe you'd have an argument of some kind if the movie portrayed the actions as commendable or even normal, but it DOESN'T. A movie person doing a creepy thing, that the movie presents as a creepy thing, in order to create some kind of laughter, does not empower rapists in reality and does not cause their actions to be more excusable. No human being alive would commit date rape because of this movie, no human being alive would think it acceptable because of this movie. That's not how things work.
7:44 pm
Huitzil, you're stating as facts ideas that sound like you're just making them up out of flawed intuition. I've posted an actual legal definition of rape below. My experience is that crime almost always has to do with the state of mind of the perpetrator, not the victim. Whether the victim chooses to press charges or not has nothing to do with whether it's a crime.
Seth Rogen's character did not know that Anna Faris' character was going to give consent in the future when he started penetrating her. Therefore, he was raping her. She can choose not to press charges later, I suppose, but it's still rape, and I suspect a prosecutor would prosecute in either case if there was enough evidence to do so without the victim's cooperation.
****
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/rape.html
The crime of rape (or "first-degree sexual assault" in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim's inability to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called "date rape"), or even when the offender is the victim's spouse.
Under a variation known as "statutory rape," some states make it unlawful for an adult to engage in sexual intercourse with a person who has not reached the age of consent (usually 18 years of age).
7:45 pm
Fuck you respectfully? That doesn't sound very sincere.. oh wait is that a joke? Boy oh boy Tilly you're so silly. And Tilly luckily for me I am a big boy and capable of making my own big boy decisions. So if I don't want to fuck someone or get fucked then I have the strength of will to make sure it doesn't happen. If a girl doesn't want to get "date raped" then maybe she shouldn't have gone on the date. Or maybe she shouldn't have gotten drunk. Or, here's an idea, maybe she shouldn't have gone home with a guy she didn't want to fuck. Unfortunately many women are still very weak minded, weak willed, and extremely manipulatable. So when they get fucked by someone they didn't want to get fucked by, instead of chalking it up to experience and one bad decision, they cry "date rape" and then ruin someone's life and reputation in order to save their own. When are these women going to become big girls and learn to make decisions for themselves instead of playing the victim?
Tag, you're it!
8:02 pm
The crime of rape DOES hinge entirely upon victim's state of mind. The exact same sequence of physical actions performed by a person can either be rape or totally fine, based ENTIRELY on the victim's state of mind. This is why it is harder to prove than entirely physical crimes, as a defendant doesn't have to prove that he did not have sex with someone, only that he honestly and in good faith believed that she consented. Prosecutors have better things to do with their time than prosecute a case of sexual assault where the victim says "no, that wasn't rape, I enjoyed it, what's the big deal?" and such a case would never result in conviction as long as the defense can call the victim herself to the stand to say "No, it wasn't rape". That kind of thing happens on Law & Order:SVU, and that show is an alternate universe populated entirely by mentally ill mutant pod people.
also cole pensinger you are one of the laziest, least imaginative trolls ever. I'm not going to say "how dare you insult feminists, shame on you" because this is the Internet, and the name of the game is tasteless one-upsmanship. But could you at least put some fucking effort in so it isn't IMMEDIATELY obvious you're an immature little shit giggling to himself about how much he's going to rile up the "sheeple" with his crushingly superior intellect?
8:40 pm
Huitzil: Hehe that's a funny name, it sounds like Shnitzel. Yes you got me I am certainly immature and giggling to myself about this topic which I have absolutely no real care for and which is a complete waste of everyone's time. And I don't know what a sheeple is, but I'm not trying to rile them up, they were already riled up dumbass, I'm just stoking the flames with some tough love if you will. About those things you were dead on my friend, but lazy? I've written like three comments in the last half an hour on a subject that I could give two shits about, certainly that couldn't be taken for lazy. Imaginative wasn't something I was shooting for, nor intellect. What I was trying to get across was just plain and simple logic, which no one here seams to possess, and since no one has attempted to argue back at specific things I've said, I can only assume that no one has a logical argument to combat with. Oh and I must say I like the use of the word troll. One of my favorites that paints a very vivid mental picture, though I'd never use it myself because it is so cliche and over done, and also it would usually require you to have actually seen me in order to describe me as a troll, because I assure you, I am not. And if I am just some immature little shit, then what are you Huitzil? Some revolutionary thinker and debater who's going to open up a dialogue to talk about sensitive issues? Please. Get over yourself. Why don't you try commenting on something I've said if you're the great debater rather than shelling out lame and, to use your own word, unimaginative insults?
Ooo, this is getting fun! Hehe
8:45 pm
I'm someone who doesn't have to resort to irritating people on the Internet to get genuine human interaction?
9:02 pm
Huitzil I'm so glad that I was right when I assumed that you didn't have one intelligent thing to say to me. Not one argument that would refute any of the points that I made. In essence you've become what you just described me as; an immature, unimaginative little shit. "I don't wanna play any more cause you're being a meany!" Fucking PUSSY! I'm glad you're as big a retard as I thought you were because I am bored with this. So I'm going to go and smoke some pot and be lazy for a while. And for the record, you are irritating people Huitzil, me mostly, with your self-righteous, shitty writing.
I win!
9:18 pm
"because the crime of rape hinges on the mental state of the victim. If, when the woman regains consciousness, she know about and does not mentally object in any way to what happened, then rape cannot have occurred."
No. If a person has sex with a woman without getting her consent beforehand, that person is a rapist. Plain and simple. The girl can wake up and think it's been the best experience of her entire life, but how does that in any way make the guy's actions better? He had no way of knowing whether she would feel violated or not. He is still a dangerous rapist and a serious threat to other women.
"It is, of course, skeevy as hell, and it’s not a situation that would very often occur in reality."
Except that it does. Well, not the "Did I tell you to stop, motherfucker," part, but guys raping drunk and/or unconscious girls is pretty much the most common form of rape there is. And it's also very common for girls to later blame themselves or rationalize away what happened. Just because a girl is too scared or traumatized to report the crime does not mean it's not rape.
And that gets us to why this is such a big deal. A lot of people have said that because Rogen's character is supposed to be a terrible person, people aren't going to see this situation as OK. But the thing is, a lot of people already DO think that this isn't rape. This little "joke" just confirms their beliefs.
"If a girl doesn’t want to get “date raped” then maybe she shouldn’t have gone on the date. Or maybe she shouldn’t have gotten drunk. Or, here’s an idea, maybe she shouldn’t have gone home with a guy she didn’t want to fuck. Unfortunately many women are still very weak minded, weak willed, and extremely manipulatable. So when they get fucked by someone they didn’t want to get fucked by, instead of chalking it up to experience and one bad decision, they cry “date rape” and then ruin someone’s life and reputation in order to save their own. When are these women going to become big girls and learn to make decisions for themselves instead of playing the victim?"
Cole, what if you were constantly told that if you don't want to be raped, you should never go out on a date, or drink, or wear revealing clothing? In fact, maybe you should just never leave the house, because it is your responsibility to not get raped, and if you do, well, that's your own fault, and don't try to blame the rapist and ruin their lives just because they wanted to have a good time with you.
See how fucked up that is? No, you probably don't. Because with this logic, you are probably a mentally fucked up rapist yourself. Go to hell, you sick, woman-hating bastard.
9:25 pm
Chris... you're a faggott... And I am now officially done.
9:32 pm
What points? You don't make points, you emit assemblies of letters that happen to look like words. Nothing you say advances a coherent argument; that's because you don't believe the things you say, you say the things that you believe will make people angry. Debating you would be like debating a blaring car alarm at 3 in the morning.
9:38 pm
Wow, nice retort, Cole. Weren't you just bitching because no one would respond to any of your actual points? And when I do, you decide to run away from the mean "feminists" and "faggots?" Guess we're just too intimidating for you.
Huitzil, you also need to understand how dangerous your argument here is. You are telling men that if they have sex with an unconscious woman, there is a small chance that the woman might actually like it. Again, this is something that a lot of guys already think. And if you don't believe that, you need to do some research on rape statistics or read testimonies from actual rape victims. Rapists usually know their victims, and they usually don't think what they are doing is rape. A lot of the time the victim even buys into that, sometimes for quite a while. I know, because this happened to my cousin. She was joking around about what happened the day after she was raped, only to break down about it two days later. By that time, very few people believed her. Including, I'm ashamed to say, me.
Movies like this may not change people's minds. But they may further confuse people who are already confused about what constitutes rape, and sadly, that is a fairly large number of people.
9:38 pm
Although, Huitzil, I have to give you props for your beatdowns of Cole.
9:41 pm
And wow, Cole, you are trying to become an actor? It would really not be good for your career if these comments became known to your potential employers.
9:43 pm
Chris:
No. If a person has sex with a woman without getting her consent beforehand, that person is a rapist. Plain and simple. The girl can wake up and think it’s been the best experience of her entire life, but how does that in any way make the guy’s actions better? He had no way of knowing whether she would feel violated or not. He is still a dangerous rapist and a serious threat to other women.
The guy in this situation has not harmed anyone. Rape is a crime because it creates physical and psychological harm to the victim. If the victim is not harmed, what purpose is there to saying a crime occurred? How can there be a rapist without a rape victim?
“It is, of course, skeevy as hell, and it’s not a situation that would very often occur in reality.”
Except that it does. Well, not the “Did I tell you to stop, motherfucker,” part, but guys raping drunk and/or unconscious girls is pretty much the most common form of rape there is. And it’s also very common for girls to later blame themselves or rationalize away what happened. Just because a girl is too scared or traumatized to report the crime does not mean it’s not rape.
Wow, you, like, didn't pay attention to the things I was saying -- the "did I tell you to stop" part would be the part that doesn't often happen, and the girl is not being pressured after the fact to not REPORT the crime; she AT NO POINT thought it was rape, without any coercion or pressure, she was never scared or traumatized, she experienced something she never every thought was rape, and therefore, she was not raped. Don't read things into what I'm saying, imagining I am a douchebag like Cole saying "women deserve to be raped for getting drunk" and other horseshit. I am talking about the specific sequence of events depicted in this movie, don't try and attribute positions to me that I don't advocate.
9:54 pm
You are telling men that if they have sex with an unconscious woman, there is a small chance that the woman might actually like it.
I can tell men that if they look down at their car radios instead of at the stoplight when they drive through, there's a chance the light will be green and they won't hit any other cars and everything will be fine. It will be true and it won't make it a good idea.
More accurately, a movie could SHOW a character looking at his car radio instead of at the stoplight while driving, and having it end up that he doesn't hit anybody and the light was green anyway. And then you could say this movie portrays the guy committing vehicular manslaughter because he wasn't looking at the road, and I could then say "no, that isn't what happened."
The movie doesn't advocate this course of action, it depicts it as a thing that happened. The argument "well, the things you are saying are true, but they might cause people to do bad things" is never, ever, ever a valid one, even when talking about something that might actually confuse people or cause people to act in a way they might not have already -- which is not what this scene is.
10:27 pm
Huitzil, you need to look up "conscious consent." If you think a woman who is passed out cold, wakes up and says in a stupor, "don't stop," and then promptly passes out cold again while a man is penetrating her, as is depicted in the movie, if you think that is consent, then I guess that's a gulf we won't bridge. Good luck.
11:22 pm
Geez Jan, if such a woman does not believe she was raped, does not experience any trauma of rape, generally is okay with the whole deal and was not pressured or coerced into thinking so, do you think she is a rape victim? Should she feel raped? Would you attempt to convince her so? And if not, how can there be a rape with no victim?
1:26 am
Huitzil, I just hope for the sake of any future gf or bf you get with you'd know that this is considered rape.
I think the only people who make excuses for this sort of thing are the ppl who can picture themselves being the perpetrator of said rape, and therefore feel sympathetic for them.
4:52 am
Ah, Huitzil. If someone penetrated your hypothetical woman under the very circumstance you so adamantly propose, it is rape. In case you don't know, that's why Rufies are illegal.
There have, in fact, been cases of women contacted by police about pressing rape charges who didn't even know they had been raped. What would we do without morons who are stupid enough to VT themselves committing crimes so they can prove to their friends exactly how imbecilic they are, eh? Priceless.
I can see you're an advocate of the "If no one saw it did I really break the law?" school of thought. But your 'no harm, no foul' ideas about sexual assault are shockingly old school.
So to welcome you to the 21st century, & perhaps aid you in staying out of trouble, keep in mind: the days of including paying for sex or being married to each other as implied consent are over.
Frankly, Seth Rogen wouldn't know a good joke if it kicked him in the junk.
9:48 am
Thank you for staying around, Huitzel.
I think it's time to reveal that I am an attorney.
The character did not gain consent before the act. It is rape. Huitzel, this is rape. It is quite simple:
the defendant has the responsibility to ensure that the other party consents to the sexual activity. The other party must consent by choice, and have the freedom and capacity to make that choice.
"If such a woman does not believe she was raped, does not experience any trauma of rape, generally is okay with the whole deal and was not pressured or coerced into thinking so, do you think she is a rape victim?:
Yes. She may not press charges, but she was raped.
"Should she feel raped?" Up to her. "Would you attempt to convince her so?" It would be irrelevant.
" And if not, how can there be a rape with no victim?" There is a victim in the eyes of the law.
10:05 am
If Seth Rogen date-rapes you in the forest, and no one sees you puke, is he still a douchebag?
11:44 am
"The guy in this situation has not harmed anyone. Rape is a crime because it creates physical and psychological harm to the victim. If the victim is not harmed, what purpose is there to saying a crime occurred? How can there be a rapist without a rape victim?"
I just explained this to you. If a guy can do this to one woman, who may happen to like it after the fact, he can do it to other women who most likely will not. I don't think rape, from a legal standpoint, is about the feelings of the victim, it's about the actions of the perpetrator. Just like any other crime. It would be like someone stealing from someone else, and later the victim decides to let the thief keep whatever it was, because she was going to let him have it anyway. That doesn't make the actions of the thief any better or any more legal. He is still a thief. Rogen's character had sex with a woman without her consent. Nothing she does or says after that fact negates what he did. Even if it's somehow not rape in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of any rational human being this guy is a dangerous rapist.
Also, I wanted to address some points that were made earlier about why we react more strongly to rape jokes than murder jokes or other kinds of dark humor. For me, it's because rape is a lot more subtle than those other crimes. Like I said earlier, most rapists don't believe they are rapists. Most people react viscerally to brutal and violent depictions of rape in movies, but that's not how it usually happens. It's usually between people that know each other, there is usually no struggle, and women usually have trouble figuring out if it was "real" rape. Look up the statistics on this if you think I'm making this up. Or just take a poll of people on whether or not they think getting someone drunk so they will have sex with them is rape. Most people don't think that's true. With other crimes like murder, we see them as pretty black and white. But stuff like this, as depicted in this movie...the whole point of the joke is that what he's doing isn't really a crime. Rogen and Faris even say that it's OK. But it is still rape, and it is not OK at all. People need to understand that, and right now most people don't. This movie, and many others that treat rape as a joke, help perpetuate that.
11:44 am
hahahahahahaha
11:45 am
"I don’t think rape, from a legal standpoint, is about the feelings of the victim, it’s about the actions of the perpetrator."
Exactly.
11:47 am
"the whole point of the joke is that what he’s doing isn’t really a crime. Rogen and Faris even say that it’s OK. But it is still rape, and it is not OK at all. People need to understand that, and right now most people don’t."
Exactly.
11:48 am
Not to mention women who report rape are far more prone to skepticism from others, even the police, compared to people who report other crimes. When we get robbed, no one asks if our wallet was hanging out of our pocket, but when girls get raped everyone asks what they were wearing. No one asks if he gave them the money, everyone asks if she wanted to have sex. This movie perpetuates that "can't rape a slut," "she wanted it anyway" logic that is tragically widespread in our society.
12:26 pm
yup.
5:50 pm
If a woman gets drunk and drives a car and kills someone, is she held responsible?
Of course.
So why is a woman not responsible if she gets drunk and goes home with some random guy and has sex with him?
Furthermore, if said drunk driver is confronted, what is said to her?
"You shouldn't have gotten so drunk."
"You shouldn't get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car."
So why do we not say to a drunken sexual partner:
"You shouldn't have gotten so drunk."
"You shouldn't get that drunk and go home with someone you don't know/like/really want to have sex with"
Why do men have to be responsible for women when women themselves refuse to be? Why are men being drafted into this role of protectors of women's virtue? Is it really that hard to just stop drinking/taking pills at some point during an evening?
What exactly do women want us to do? Walk around with breathalyzers and lawyers just to make sure that women can be completely divorced from the consequences of their actions? How should men go about making sure that yes really means triple-promise, pinky-swear, honest-to-god, on-my-mother's-grave, cross-my-heart, hope-to-die, yes?
10:01 pm
Hey, Rai, how about YOU DON'T RAPE DRUNK WOMEN?
I know it'll be super super hard on you since that's the only way any woman would ever lay a finger on you, but maybe if you stopped being such a disgusting, entitlement-minded piece of shit, women might actually like you.
Is it really so hard to say to someone who's slurring their words, staggering, vomiting, maybe calling you by her boyfriend's name: "Look, this isn't right, babe. Maybe tomorrow, huh?" Is it?
10:16 pm
Cyberwulf - what makes you think I do? Because I think women should be responsible for their own behaviour?
Maybe I should clarify a bit - I don't think it's a particularly good or pleasant idea for a man to have sex with a drunk woman. I don't think any man has a right to force himself upon a woman. I don't think a man has a right to drug, or ply a woman with alcohol in order to make her amenable to his advances. No means no, simple as that.
But when I get drunk and do something stupid (like we all have) it's my responsibility and my responsibility alone. It's not my car's fault that I drive drunk. It's not random Joe's fault that I threw a punch at him. It's not the cop's fault that I spend the night in jail.
So if a woman chooses to get drunk and then jumps on the first guy he sees, why is it his fault? Why does he deserve to have his life ruined? Why is he a sex offender? If he was more drunk than her, has he been raped?
I'm not saying he should do it. I'm not saying I condone, approve, or find the behaviour anything other than distasteful. I'm just asking why the woman bears no responsibility whatsoever for any of her actions when she is drunk? Why should a man's life be destroyed because of a series of bad decisions on her part? My comment is more about taking responsibility for your own behaviour than blaming someone else.
Is that clear enough? Or would you like to call me some more nasty names?
1:14 am
A sober person should not have sex with a seriously inebriated person, even if he or she interprets the inebriated person's actions as "wanting it."
If both are drunk, in many situations (not all) we can compare it to one drunk person punching another drunk person. Both were drunk, and both were involved in this exchange. However, only one is responsible. Being raped is passive. Raping is active. Who is the person actively initiating and then continuing the sexual act? If one person is unconscious/near unconscious while another person, drunk or not, pumps away, the active person is committing rape. Being drunk does not remove the responsibility of choosing to take advantage of another person. Rape, like punching another person or driving, is not an inevitable result of getting drunk.
5:04 am
" if a woman chooses to get drunk and then jumps on the first guy he sees"
...WHY DOESN'T HE TELL HER NO?
"I don’t think it’s a particularly good or pleasant idea for a man to have sex with a drunk woman."
But if he does, it's totally her fault. Even if she's so drunk she CLEARLY can't agree to it. Right?
5:05 am
"I’m not saying I condone, approve, or find the behaviour anything other than distasteful."
Oh, you're condoning it all around, Rai. Becuase as far as you're concerned, it's the victim's fault. She "made a series of bad decisions" and the asshole who looked at her, staggering, vomiting, maybe unconscious, "doesn't deserve to have his life ruined". You're disgusting.
5:06 am
*looked at her and decided "mmm, sexytimes!"
2:39 am
So, Rai. You eagerly apply your Drunk's Rules to yourself when it comes to driving or getting into a bar fight. But lets make it a genuinely parallel hypothetical.
What if you got really hammered and some big guy decided you looked really sexy right then (a la Deliverance) & you were just too drunk to do anything about it. He thought your protestations were cute, your mouth may have been saying no but he knew you really wanted it.
Would you say 'My bad' the morning after? Or do you think you might feel a wee bit violated?
3:45 am
Ok, folks, here's an analogy for ya. If someone drops their iphone is it OK to step on it & smash it up? Or how about just picking it up & using it? I mean, the owner was obviously careless right?
NO. It's not your property. If you don't have the class or time to bring it to the lost & found then just leave the dang thing where you found it.
Ya know, frankly, this whole discussion is ludicrous. Bottom line - if a man has to TAKE sex wherever he can get it, including from someone who's unconscious or unwilling he's not a man. HE'S A LOSER.
I can't imagine that a man who argues that a woman asks to be raped with her behavior, or thinks that a woman really won't mind if she's in the right frame of mind, has any female contact whatsoever. There can't be a mother, sister, friends, co-worker, girlfriend or wife that he respects or cares about in his life. If there was he'd never want to see them go through the pain of having been brutally violated. He wouldn't be making excuses for these creeps who behave as though they're entitled to take what hasn't been offered. He wouldn't cut any slack to a guy who's deepest fear is that if a woman got to know him she'd see him for the waste of space he really is.
Have we forgotten what a real man is? A real man likes a challenge, even if he doesn't win. A real man has enough confidence in himself to want the thrill that only the attention from a real, live, breathing, flesh & blood, awake & alert woman can provide.
Only a whopping tool with no self respect would take the time to think of justifications for trying to get his penis into somewhere it doesn't belong or isn't wanted.
My advice? Stick to your blow up dolls, little boys. They're perfect ladies - always in the right frame of mind, they never say no, or get drunk & throw up on themselves. But don't tell your little boy friends about her. 'Cause she won't say no to them either.
2:49 pm
Okay, this is just getting patently ridiculous.
Rai has put forward a perfectly reasonable position. It doesn't describe the situation in the movie at all, which may be causing your confusion. However, it's clear he's not talking about a situation wherein the female party to the intercourse is unconscious or otherwise not the initiator of the act.
The fact of the matter is that it is all too common for men, who may have been equally inebriated, and may not have even initiated the sex, to be charged for offenses such as rape because the woman later regrets her drunken "decision" (In quotes to indicate that I fully understand that such decisions are not considered informed consent in a legal context) to fuck the poor slob.
I think it can be agreed upon that the hypothetical scenario that Rai is bringing up should not be considered rape, but is equally the responsibility of two incapacitated parties, and doesn't constitute someone taking advantage of another. Why he's bringing it up in the context of this movie, or among such a group of excitable and illogical debaters, is lost on me.
To everyone else in this conversation: Please learn to read for content before responding, as this reactionary bullshit really only serves to make a strawman out of your own position by making you appear ignorant and childish.
8:47 am
Placebo, by Rai's logic any man who is charged with rape because he had sex with a woman while he was drunk has only himself to blame. By Rai's logic, it's his fault for getting drunk. Funny how you and Rai hold drunk women responsible for their actions even while so incapacitated they can't remember them, yet bleat about poor innocent drunk men having their lives ruined by predatory vindictive women.
9:10 am
Also: over two thirds of rape victims who present for counselling do not report their rapes to the police. Of the number of rape reports made to the police, only about four percent result in a conviction. It is not 'all too common' for drunk men to be charged with rape because a woman changed her mind. That's a myth propagated by those who want to be able to rape drunk people with impunity.
9:53 pm
Of all those here screaming (typing) bloody murder over this scene and say that Rogen condones rape, who's actually seen the film and the scene in question?
I thought so.
It's one thing to have an opinion about something you have actually seen and then there's the ignorant hate spouting about something you are basically regurgitating from somebody else.
And people make fun of murder victims all the time in movies, I don't see people going up in arms about that. What makes date rape so special?
12:18 am
Huitzil- You're the most rational person on this forum.
Huitzil is just understanding of where the joke is coming from. It's always hard to resist making issues black and white, feelings malicious or benevolent. it takes a lot of courage to call something for what it is, which is what Huitzil is doing.
And for the people trying to demonize Huitzil, or make his logic appear ignorant, well I feel sorry for you.
I'm automatically assuming Huitzil is a male. I could be wrong!
4:24 am
Jonathan - why don't you read the responses here before having a fullblown hysterical fit because people pointed out how dangerous it is to trivialise date rape and reinforce the appallingly dismissive attitudes many people already hold about it?
And what kind of soulless human being makes fun of murder victims?! Oh wait, maybe the kind of dipshit who whines because people insult a film he likes.
5:42 am
Cyberwulf. Cinema has trivialized murder since it began, you know that as well as I do and you have laughed at someone getting shot or beaten to a pulp in a movie many times, you know this also as well as I do and don't pretend that hasn't happened.
I'm not whining about people dissing a movie I like, I'm whining about people dissing a movie they haven't seen and are jumping to conclusions because somebody else said something. It's the nature of the internet, shoot first ask questions later.
"Opinions are like assholes on the internet; everybody is one."
8:37 am
Jonathan- YOU may have laughed at people getting murdered and beaten to a pulp. If you have to project your callousness and lack of empathy onto me to convince yourself that your reaction was normal, that speaks volumes about you.
Second, when a murder takes place in a film, there isn't a load of rationalising bullshit about how it wasn't really murder because the victim wanted it, or that no murder occurred at all. When a murder occurs in real life, no one rationalises it away like that either...but they do with rape. People are doing it in these comments.
Thirdly - the rape scene is in the trailer. If you're going to come back and whine about how the victim was hitting on her rapist earlier in the movie and therefore it's fine, I suggest you don't waste your time. This has been covered in comments already.
As another commenter said, it's amazing the number of people who don't give a shit about a rape scene being played for laughs but frantically dirty themselves because people don't like a Seth Rogan movie.
9:11 am
No Wulf, you have as well. I know. Don't pretend to be any better than the rest of us cause it's not working.
And because you are basing your views on a glimpse of it in the trailer then you have wasted your time and everybody's else's.
Go see the movie, sit down and watch it and THEN base your opinion on that educated evaluation. Cause right now you are pissing in the wind. But since you've gotten in to this furious state over something you haven't seen then I'm sure it's not going to change your mind what so ever. Especially since you've been bitching and whining about this to all your friends and it would look kind of silly to all of sudden change your mind about it. Got to keep it real right?
Fucking sad.
9:32 am
The problem is not as simple as rape being played for laughs---and by men who clearly have no experience with the less funny real-life rape experience. The problem is the way the joke is set up in the film in order to justify it to the men who created it.
In all discussions of this scene, Rogen, Hill, and their fans have all made pains to insist that the sex is not ACTUALLY rape---see her "consent" as punchline). To them, that is what makes the scene funny---that is what, as Rogen says, "makes it all okay."
Why are we mad? Because the scene does portray rape, because women who stumble, vomiting into bed cannot consent, and passed out mumblings after the fact do not signal consent.
Obviously, this movie is about two people that we are not meant to consider role models or examples of moral behavior. So why do Rogen and Hill need the woman to "consent" in order to absolve them of their on-screen rape? Isn't it funny that it's all the woman's fault in the end? Not really.
It would have been fairer to just have him rape her and have it accepted as such, in the movie and in interviews. As another commenter pointed out, when Rogen's character beats men up in the movie, they're not expected to get up and say "it's okay: I wanted it."
9:42 am
Please, Jonathan, continue to try and make yourself feel better about being the kind of wretch who laughs at murders and who furiously soils himself because people don't want to waste their money and/or risk being triggered (bet you didn't read THAT comment) by going to see a movie that trivialises rape. 'Fucking sad' indeed. Honestly, why don't you just come right and out and say that you think rape is funny?
10:51 am
Rape is hilarious. I soil myself every time I hear that word. Whoops there is goes again. Doh!
The thing is wulf, if that is your real name. Everything you've blathered on here is utterly irrelevant, doesn't mean zilch, zero, nada. Why? BECAUSE
YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE YOU ARE CONDEMNING. That's as idiotic as me complaining about a book I haven't read but I read a few lines from it online and then heard allot of people complain about it.
Get it now?
You are irrelevant, your ignorant hate speech is irrelevant because you don't know what you are talking about. I do however. Stop wasting my time and other here.
Come back when you've seen it.
11:06 am
Condemning the trivialisation of rape = hate speech. Keep proving my point, Jonathan.
PS: Didn't your parents teach you not to use your real name on the internet?
11:15 am
Jonathan, have you seen the movie? Is the scene presented in a way that's different from what we've all seen in the trailer, or different from the way the filmmakers have all chosen to contextualize it in numerous interviews? If we've got the facts wrong, let us know---otherwise, the point is we don't want to reward them with our 10 bucks.
1:16 pm
See, this is just typical. People criticizing something they haven't seen or know anything about.
How can you make a point on something you know nothing about?
And yes the scene is slightly longer than those 8 seconds shown in the trailer.
Use those 10 bucks to educate yourself on the subject, then you have a valid point of criticism. Or you can download the thing if you rather spend those 10 bucks on something else.
If not you have no business being in this discussion.
Wulf. Calling people rape advocates because they don't agree with your rant= hate speech.
1:19 pm
What a surprise! Jonathan didn't answer the question. Because he can't.
1:23 pm
Come on, Jonathan! Argue against what the actors and filmmakers have said about the scene. Or maybe they don't count because they haven't seen it.
And if you don't want to be labelled a rape apologist, stop sounding like one.
8:37 pm
Really Wulf? Is this the highlight of your day? Waiting to see if an anonymous person answers a question about a movie? Did you get all giddy because you thought I ran away with my tail between my legs? I bet you did. I bet you scoffed out loud and smirked and wanted to give somebody a high five but there was nobody there....oops.
That's some sad shit I got to say.
Like I said, go see the movie, then we'll talk. Then I can condone rape some more since you seem to enjoy that so much.
5:25 am
Jonathan, I'm still not seeing an answer to Amanda's question. Surely you have something to say in the movie's defence - after all, you've seen it and we're all just ignorant haters. So tell us what makes this rape scene not a rape scene. Tell us why we're wrong. Preferably without getting emotional and trying to guess my motivation for posting.
4:49 am
You can totally have sex if one person is unconscious, it's just that the 'you' is singular, not plural. It's still sex, just like rape is still sex, but rather, they are forms of sex without active informed consent happening throughout it, and thus looked down upon.