Comments on: Welcome to the Jungle http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/ <em>City Paper</em> Writers on News, Politics, the Media, the Arts, and More Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:47:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Max Linsky http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105547 Max Linsky Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:21:17 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105547 I think the nature of the term is vague enough that a whole host of meanings can be ascribed to it, which is both part of the problem and part of the reason it's been able to stick around for a while in CL's different cities. It's come to mean something different in Tampa (there's a column called Urban Explorer and an annual special issue) than it does in Atlanta and Charlotte, and it may be that what it means in DC doesn't work for the City Paper. What it means for Old Navy, well, I'm not sure. I also saw it on some flip-flops a while back. In Sarasota, which is much more a town than a city, the term was even harder to define. It's a wealthy community with a slew of glossy mags to cover luxury stuff, and the cover you linked to was for an issue where we "explored" the most expensive stuff we could find locally. Though we got a good response to the issue, it's not a cover I'm particularly proud of. Still, Andrew, it's a thousand times more problematic than what? I think the nature of the term is vague enough that a whole host of meanings can be ascribed to it, which is both part of the problem and part of the reason it’s been able to stick around for a while in CL’s different cities. It’s come to mean something different in Tampa (there’s a column called Urban Explorer and an annual special issue) than it does in Atlanta and Charlotte, and it may be that what it means in DC doesn’t work for the City Paper. What it means for Old Navy, well, I’m not sure. I also saw it on some flip-flops a while back.

In Sarasota, which is much more a town than a city, the term was even harder to define. It’s a wealthy community with a slew of glossy mags to cover luxury stuff, and the cover you linked to was for an issue where we “explored” the most expensive stuff we could find locally. Though we got a good response to the issue, it’s not a cover I’m particularly proud of. Still, Andrew, it’s a thousand times more problematic than what?

]]> By: Andrew Beaujon http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105469 Andrew Beaujon Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:30 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105469 Murray, Dave, thanks both for your perspectives. I'm not convinced the term is racist, but I do think it's at the very least a lousy way to look at people living in cities. We're not "explorers," we live here. And there's no shaking the imagery of Dr. Livingstone in his safari helmet poking through the dense brush. It's just not the same as shopping downtown! The difference between CL's Urban Explorer and Old Navy's is that with the former there seems to be no irony involved. Irony in the sense of a presumably poignant gap between what's said and what's meant, not irony in the sense of dressing up a guy in a red velvet suit and cane over the headline "Pimp My Life." That to me is a thousand times more problematic. But hey, we've got the guy who OK'd that cover here now. Max, what are your thoughts? Murray, Dave, thanks both for your perspectives. I’m not convinced the term is racist, but I do think it’s at the very least a lousy way to look at people living in cities. We’re not “explorers,” we live here. And there’s no shaking the imagery of Dr. Livingstone in his safari helmet poking through the dense brush. It’s just not the same as shopping downtown!

The difference between CL’s Urban Explorer and Old Navy’s is that with the former there seems to be no irony involved. Irony in the sense of a presumably poignant gap between what’s said and what’s meant, not irony in the sense of dressing up a guy in a red velvet suit and cane over the headline “Pimp My Life.” That to me is a thousand times more problematic. But hey, we’ve got the guy who OK’d that cover here now. Max, what are your thoughts?

]]> By: Murray http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105466 Murray Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:03:52 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105466 Ok. Your response, in my opionin, is a better approach than the original post which seemed to say that term Urban was a racially charged and dumb idea across all properties. It may be that the term Urban Explorer doesn't work in the DC market, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work in other markets. The tone and mocking nature of the original post is what was disturbing to me since it doesn't seem like it was based on an understanding of the Atlanta market. Here is a link to some demogrpahic sites. The Media Audit numbers track with this but I don't have a link for those numbers. http://www.quantcast.com/atlanta.creativeloafing.com/demographics Ok. Your response, in my opionin, is a better approach than the original post which seemed to say that term Urban was a racially charged and dumb idea across all properties. It may be that the term Urban Explorer doesn’t work in the DC market, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work in other markets. The tone and mocking nature of the original post is what was disturbing to me since it doesn’t seem like it was based on an understanding of the Atlanta market.

Here is a link to some demogrpahic sites. The Media Audit numbers track with this but I don’t have a link for those numbers.

http://www.quantcast.com/atlanta.creativeloafing.com/demographics

]]> By: Dave McKenna http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105463 Dave McKenna Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:40:33 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105463 Murray: washington city paper serves the Washington, DC, market, not atlanta, so thanks for your perspective. i can't respond to your posts, since #8 is based, you say, on demographic stats for alternative papers in atlanta that aren't available to me and have nothing to do with washington, dc. but, i don't think any numbers would have changed my first impression of the term "urban explorer" as being synonymous with "on safari," and #9 is equally applicable, since as far as i know there are no walmart, target, kohl's or limited too stores in washington, dc. in other words, none of companies you cite. perhaps that's a coincidence. but thanks again for your input. Murray:
washington city paper serves the Washington, DC, market, not atlanta, so thanks for your perspective.

i can’t respond to your posts, since #8 is based, you say, on demographic stats for alternative papers in atlanta that aren’t available to me and have nothing to do with washington, dc. but, i don’t think any numbers would have changed my first impression of the term “urban explorer” as being synonymous with “on safari,” and #9 is equally applicable, since as far as i know there are no walmart, target, kohl’s or limited too stores in washington, dc. in other words, none of companies you cite. perhaps that’s a coincidence.

but thanks again for your input.

]]> By: Murray http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105456 Murray Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:53:49 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105456 Dave, I'd be interested to hear your take on the 2 comments I made. I did them last night, but they had multiiple links so it took awhile for them to ge through the moderation que. They are comments 8 and 9. Dave, I’d be interested to hear your take on the 2 comments I made. I did them last night, but they had multiiple links so it took awhile for them to ge through the moderation que. They are comments 8 and 9.

]]> By: Dave McKenna http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105444 Dave McKenna Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:46:23 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105444 BringMetheHead: Andrew might have been talking about me, since i work here and I'm pretty sure I told him a while back that "urban explorer" struck me as racist. It sounds so much like "on safari" and "safari seekers" (from Wynton Marsalis' 2007 record) and other very googlable terms that have been used for so long to describe white folks venturing out of their comfort zone and into the city to observe black folks in their natural habitat. what does "urban explorer" mean to you, Bringmethehead? seriously, i would love to hear your answer. besides, Bringmethehead, our mandate from above is to get traffic to the website. that ain't easy -- look at all the websites you say you frequent. we're company men, and nothing attracts surfers like throwing "racist" into a post. you took the race bait, Bringmethehead. thanks for the hit. BringMetheHead:
Andrew might have been talking about me, since i work here and I’m pretty sure I told him a while back that “urban explorer” struck me as racist. It sounds so much like “on safari” and “safari seekers” (from Wynton Marsalis’ 2007 record) and other very googlable terms that have been used for so long to describe white folks venturing out of their comfort zone and into the city to observe black folks in their natural habitat.

what does “urban explorer” mean to you, Bringmethehead? seriously, i would love to hear your answer.

besides, Bringmethehead, our mandate from above is to get traffic to the website. that ain’t easy — look at all the websites you say you frequent. we’re company men, and nothing attracts surfers like throwing “racist” into a post.

you took the race bait, Bringmethehead. thanks for the hit.

]]> By: Andrew Beaujon http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105443 Andrew Beaujon Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:01:40 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105443 Hey I've rented <i>Caddyshack</i> from Netflix! Can we at least agree on the comic genius of Ted Knight? Or are things too far gone between us? Hey I’ve rented Caddyshack from Netflix! Can we at least agree on the comic genius of Ted Knight? Or are things too far gone between us?

]]> By: Kimchiii http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105442 Kimchiii Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:57:18 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105442 What logo? What logo?

]]> By: BringMeTheHeadOfAlfredoGarcia http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105430 BringMeTheHeadOfAlfredoGarcia Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:40:22 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105430 So what if I'm from Atlanta? You looked up my IP address? My listed email address is "Book Man Atlanta" gumshoe. You saying I can't read a washington papers website because I'm from another city? I've been a CL reader for years, and I enjoy what the other E-papers have to offer, even this one, even yours. I guess I should no longer read BBC news online, The Onion, Variety, or the New York Times. I should only read local news. Gotcha. And the Chevy Chase "reference" was entirely unintentional, I assure you. But since you know his work so well I guess you are a big fan. Ben knows you think it's a dumb name huh? Does he know you think it's racist, or that "most" think it's just dumb? Does he know you are laughing at the idea? That a lot of you are laughing at him? Your blog is disrespectful, dismissive, and honestly ignorant. And using Old Navy to make fun of your bosses is just childish and sad. Maybe you won't get fired, but I know in my company this kind of thing would not go without being answered. Instead of addressing this, you decide to make fun of my post with Chevy Chase. And yeah, I get it Kimchii, you don't like the CL logo. It's not funny. So what if I’m from Atlanta? You looked up my IP address? My listed email address is “Book Man Atlanta” gumshoe. You saying I can’t read a washington papers website because I’m from another city? I’ve been a CL reader for years, and I enjoy what the other E-papers have to offer, even this one, even yours.

I guess I should no longer read BBC news online, The Onion, Variety, or the New York Times. I should only read local news. Gotcha.

And the Chevy Chase “reference” was entirely unintentional, I assure you. But since you know his work so well I guess you are a big fan.

Ben knows you think it’s a dumb name huh? Does he know you think it’s racist, or that “most” think it’s just dumb? Does he know you are laughing at the idea? That a lot of you are laughing at him?

Your blog is disrespectful, dismissive, and honestly ignorant. And using Old Navy to make fun of your bosses is just childish and sad. Maybe you won’t get fired, but I know in my company this kind of thing would not go without being answered.

Instead of addressing this, you decide to make fun of my post with Chevy Chase.

And yeah, I get it Kimchii, you don’t like the CL logo. It’s not funny.

]]> By: KimChiii http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105397 KimChiii Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:24:40 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105397 Would Andrew mind being fired by the same company responsible for a racebaiting and plain stupid Urban Explorer cover? Geiger reading is off da roof yo! Would Andrew mind being fired by the same company responsible for a racebaiting and plain stupid Urban Explorer cover?

Geiger reading is off da roof yo!

]]> By: Leitko http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105388 Leitko Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:56:23 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105388 Oh snap! Oh snap!

]]> By: Murray http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105379 Murray Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:37:23 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105379 An additional thought I want to share is that just because Old Navy used a Black Female doesn't really mean anything. I did some poking around and found these clothing outlets that have black people featured up front. Does it follow that these establishments only did this to appeal to a black audience only? http://walmart.richfx.com.edgesuite.net/catalog_Walmart/Feb_Baby_2008/index.aspx http://www.target.com/b/ref=sc_iw_r_1_1/601-3272343-0156941?node=3692501 http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/intimates.jsp http://www.limitedtoo.com/netplus-lp/?GCID=S18881x002&gtkw=%22limited+too%22&gclid=CMCf0uKQ45ECFQJ4Hgodnxw6ZQ An additional thought I want to share is that just because Old Navy used a Black Female doesn’t really mean anything. I did some poking around and found these clothing outlets that have black people featured up front. Does it follow that these establishments only did this to appeal to a black audience only?

http://walmart.richfx.com.edgesuite.net/catalog_Walmart/Feb_Baby_2008/index.aspx

http://www.target.com/b/ref=sc_iw_r_1_1/601-3272343-0156941?node=3692501

http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/intimates.jsp

http://www.limitedtoo.com/netplus-lp/?GCID=S18881×002&gtkw=%22limited+too%22&gclid=CMCf0uKQ45ECFQJ4Hgodnxw6ZQ

]]> By: Murray http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105378 Murray Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:04:31 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105378 In the Atlanta market the term "urban explorer" doesn't have a racial overtone. If you look at demographic stats from various agencies you will see that Atlanta Creative Loafing has an extremly high penetration among the black community. This is the 3rd year of Urban Explorer and we haven't had an adverse reaction. As a Black Man myself I can tell you that it doesn't offend me any way. The top 5 search results from Google are listed below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_exploration http://www.urbanexplorers.net/ http://www.theurbanexplorer.com/ http://www.uer.ca/ http://www.infiltration.org/ In the Atlanta market the term “urban explorer” doesn’t have a racial overtone. If you look at demographic stats from various agencies you will see that Atlanta Creative Loafing has an extremly high penetration among the black community. This is the 3rd year of Urban Explorer and we haven’t had an adverse reaction. As a Black Man myself I can tell you that it doesn’t offend me any way.

The top 5 search results from Google are listed below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_exploration
http://www.urbanexplorers.net/
http://www.theurbanexplorer.com/
http://www.uer.ca/
http://www.infiltration.org/

]]> By: Andrew Beaujon http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105357 Andrew Beaujon Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:36:18 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105357 Actually, Ben knows I think it's a dumb name. Even he would admit it doesn't have the panache of a 23-year-old Chevy Chase joke, though... Actually, Ben knows I think it’s a dumb name. Even he would admit it doesn’t have the panache of a 23-year-old Chevy Chase joke, though…

]]> By: BringMeTheHeadOfAlfredoGarcia http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105352 BringMeTheHeadOfAlfredoGarcia Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:28:42 +0000 http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/02/25/welcome-to-the-jungle/#comment-105352 If I were Ben Eason, Andrew would have been handed his walking papers and this would have been removed. This blog is incredibly unprofessional, and just a little bit sad. If I were Ben Eason, Andrew would have been handed his walking papers and this would have been removed. This blog is incredibly unprofessional, and just a little bit sad.

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